FE9 Tier List

[Shadow Mir]

By the way, this comparison doesn't show me anything. 20/2 Mia with the same Steel Sword forge has 27 atk before supports. Now look! Mist loses offense to a unit 2 tiers below her! She must suck!

Never mind the fact that training Mia is a problem due to her fail offense and durability, and the fact that her supports are iffy. And she's using EXP that the rest of the team could've used.

[Florete]

training Mia is also actually a problem due to her constant suck and massive consumption of EXP that the rest of the team could have used.

Never mind the fact that training Mia is a problem due to her fail offense and durability, and the fact that her supports are iffy. And she's using EXP that the rest of the team could've used.

Oh, come on, you guys should know better. "Experience stealing" has never been a valid argument. I could use the same thing against everyone else not named Rhys, Mist, Volke, or Sothe. A unit "sucking" doesn't suddenly make it a valid argument.

And from what I believe, isn't a promoted Mia fairly fine in combat anyway? It's getting her there that's the real problem.

[Shadow Mir]

Oh, come on, you guys should know better. "Experience stealing" has never been a valid argument. I could use the same thing against everyone else not named Rhys, Mist, Volke, or Sothe. A unit "sucking" doesn't suddenly make it a valid argument.

And from what I believe, isn't a promoted Mia fairly fine in combat anyway? It's getting her there that's the real problem.

Heh...I expected you to jump on us for saying what we said.

At any rate, I still think Mia's supports are kinda iffy.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[dondon151]

incorrect, it's both of them at 20/1

Incorrect, Oscar doesn't average 17 str until 20/4 and Mist doesn't average 10 str until 20/2. The levels shouldn't even be that close together anyway, so even as I put it it's still in Mist's favor.

mist's staves doesn't sap EXP from the rest of the group, and she's not using up any more funds than Oscar did to get to 20/1 [probably less, in fact]

Mist required a ton of BEXP to catch up and her Steel Sword forge costs around 3500 G compared to Oscar's basic weapons.

Furthermore, 90% of units in this game need EXP and 100% need gold to function so I have no idea why the hell you're calling Mist out for it anyway.

Because she demands more of it... lol...

no shit she does. I'm not arguing Mist>Oscar, you know. Oscar was a comparison to debunk "bad enemy phase".

Mist with lots or resources is worse than Oscar with no resources, and Oscar with no resources doesn't have that great of an enemy phase. As I said earlier, he needs the Steel Lance forge to land ORKOs, which opens the attack gap even further and shows that Mist's offense is rather inept. Also, Mist's enemy phase against 2 range is zero.

training Mia is also actually a problem due to her constant suck and massive consumption of EXP that the rest of the team could have used.

Training Mist is also actually a problem due to her constant suck and giant underleveledness

Btw, remember that Mist is promoting along with most of the rest of our units,

No she doesn't. Where the hell does this come from? Either she promotes early before 20/0 if she wants to promote with everyone else or she waits a while until 20/0.

Edited July 16, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Alright, we need to determine exactly what defines "favoritism." Personally, I see it as a unit taking something someone else could've put to good use as well (whether better or worse) but might not be able to now, like with most stat boosters. If a unit takes something that no one else is going to miss, I call that "playing smart."

Let's start with this whole BEXP argument. Apparently, Mist is taking too much. How is this? Here's my method of using BEXP:

-If I'm using a character I just recruited and that character is underleveled (Mist, Marcia, Astrid, Tormod, etc.), I'll give them a few levels to catch up somewhat, depending on how much they need and what level they're at.

-At base, if a unit has >70 experience already, I give them a level.

-At base, if a unit has <50 experience already, I raise them to 50. (These two points are approximations)

-If I ever have >2000 BEXP after all that, I spread it around until I have 2000.

I don't know about everyone else, but I pretty much always have >1000 BEXP remaining in my coffers, and this is after giving Mist like 5 levels at the chapter 10 base (Or perhaps after, since I go stealth on ch. 10 for tons of BEXP). So if I always have enough BEXP to adequately level my units, where's the favoritism? And no, this isn't "PEMN," it's "Yeah, I usually get max BEXP or close to it and this is what you end up with," since if you go over the turn limit by 1 or 2 turns, you don't lose a whole lot.

So I don't how Mist using BEXP (just like I assume everyone else is) gets defined as "favoritism," as there is no value in having 3k BEXP in your coffers at the end of the game.

Now how about them forges? I find this one exaggerated as well. Maybe if we assume someone like Ike is getting his hands on the first forge available, that could constitute favoritism. But that's not what's happening. In Mist's case, we're waiting until she promotes, which is Chapter 17.

There are a few things you have to remember here:

-Just because someone has a forge doesn't mean he or she will use it to kill every enemy. If a normal weapon does the trick, that one will be used instead.

-People can trade.

-We have a shitload of money in this game.

Therefore, by the time Mist actually wants a forge, most of your team, if not everyone, should already be outfitted with one or two, so you'd be practically sandbagging her to say she can't get one. And then trades. That one is perfect for Mist. She uses a forge to kill an enemy, Cantos diagonally to another, then Ike runs up, grabs the forge, and kills that other bastard. Everyone is happy.

I don't know about everyone else (and I've said this before), but I often find myself forging ahead, meaning I forge weapons for characters I don't even have yet because my current team is good and I know I'll be using this later character.

Last but not least (well, it might be least) is Arms Scrolls and Occult, the one-use items. I think it's been adequately shown that almost no one except Mist actually gets anything out of Arms Scrolls, and even if someone does, it's also been shown that Mist really only needs one to wield the Sonic Sword soon.

As for Occult, only Ike, Mist, and the Paladins really find any use in it. However, I find it once again to be "playing smart" to give the healing skill to the character that can heal everyone except herself already. The other Paladins generally don't need it very badly (because, you know, Mist is there, along with the possibility of Rhys/Soren/Ilyana/Tormod) and there's another one that comes early enough for Ike to use anyway.

Did I miss anything?

[CT075]

There was the matter of CEXP I think, but I could be mistaken.

Anyway, *clap clap clap*

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I think "favoritism" is called out often on Mist because of things like this:

Mist with forged steel: 23 ATK [before supports. 25 ATK at bare minimum]

Oscar with steel: 27 atk

I think you mean "It's comparable to the second best unit in the game".

You can't look at this comparison and say it isn't favoritism on Mist. The 2 are assumed at close levels when that shouldn't be the case unless a shitload of BEXP was thrown at Mist and then there's the fact that Mist is shown in this comparison with a forge and Oscar is shown with a standard weapon.

If you're going to use forges in a comparison, give the other unit a forge too, of equal or close value.

For example, according to the site, forging 5 MT on Steel Sword = 2871G while forging 5 MT on Steel Lance = 1750G. In order to make this a fair comparison, you'll have to forge a bit of the other stats into that weapon (Steel Lance in this case), priority on the more beneficial stat (Crit if Hit is quite sufficient and AS loss doesn't make a significant difference in how often someone doubles for example).

[Rodykitty]

Either everyone gets a forge or nobody gets one, and the forges should be of equal weapons/values. I far prefer to keep arguments without forges as much as possible since it really shows what characters need/benefit from them anyway and we can avoid the issue of favortism altogether.

On BEXP, I remember GameFAQs had some sort of fair share value. I'm guessing it's based on an ideal team size, and that every body gets this amount of BEXP no matter who it is. I would make exception of utility units that have their fun and stop being used after awhile.

Also, I didn't see this addressed in your post, but I notice that supports tend to be the biggest source of favortism because I always see things like "but <z> character is already taking <y>" and other such arguments like that to downplay whatever few good supports a lower tier character has. This is blatant favortism. Simply judge supports by how good they are, not who is likely to get them.

[Florete]

There was the matter of CEXP I think, but I could be mistaken.

Anyway, *clap clap clap*

Thank you.

You can't look at this comparison and say it isn't favoritism on Mist. The 2 are assumed at close levels when that shouldn't be the case unless a shitload of BEXP was thrown at Mist and then there's the fact that Mist is shown in this comparison with a forge and Oscar is shown with a standard weapon.

Why shouldn't they be at close levels? I haven't used Oscar in a while, but I do know that staves can occasionally give more experience than combat. Personally, I usually promote just about my entire team in chapter 17, and that includes Mist.

If you're going to use forges in a comparison, give the other unit a forge too, of equal or close value.

I agree, which I mentioned in my post when I said "most of your team, if not everyone, should already be outfitted with one or two."

For example, according to the site, forging 5 MT on Steel Sword = 2871G while forging 5 MT on Steel Lance = 1750G. In order to make this a fair comparison, you'll have to forge a bit of the other stats into that weapon (Steel Lance in this case), priority on the more beneficial stat (Crit if Hit is quite sufficient and AS loss doesn't make a significant difference in how often someone doubles for example).

This I don't necessarily agree with. It's very rare that an argument is used because a unit "costs more" than another unless it's a pretty big price difference. We get thrown a ton of money in this game, so even a 3k Sword doesn't hit our bank account very hard at all. Making prices perfectly even is just nitpicking in my opinion.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why shouldn't they be at close levels? I haven't used Oscar in a while, but I do know that staves can occasionally give more experience than combat. Personally, I usually promote just about my entire team in chapter 17, and that includes Mist.

Because if they are, then Mist has been given much more BEXP than Oscar and there's some chapters where Mist won't exactly get as much EXP in some chapters. Then there's the fact that Oscar's got some chapters where he's been leveling up and Mist starts at lvl 1.

Take for example C11, the BEXP turn requirement is 7. With Mend, she can get up to 84 EXP (assuming she heals EVERY turn which may not always be the case). I don't think it's impossible to get a level up and some more EXP then take into account the level lead.

This I don't necessarily agree with. It's very rare that an argument is used because a unit "costs more" than another unless it's a pretty big price difference. We get thrown a ton of money in this game, so even a 3k Sword doesn't hit our bank account very hard at all. Making prices perfectly even is just nitpicking in my opinion.

Giving character in comparisons equal or close price ranges is more fair however. Why deny some1 some crit or some beneficial WT reduction when the other character's weapon costs more?

Edited July 16, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

I suppose now would be the right time to point out that I forgot Oscar could use a Steel Axe on promotion.

This taken into account...the hell does he need a forge for?

[-Cynthia-]

I suppose now would be the right time to point out that I forgot Oscar could use a Steel Axe on promotion.

This taken into account...the hell does he need a forge for?

Oscar will have trouble ORKOing enemies with a basic Steel Axe.

[Florete]

Giving character in comparisons equal or close price ranges is more fair however. Why deny some1 some crit or some beneficial WT reduction when the other character's weapon costs more?

Because the extra cost is already superfluous. When you compare an Axe user to a Sword user, you don't give the Axe user a Steel Axe while giving the Sword user an Iron Sword simply because the cost is closer. Unless the item really starts to look costly, I go with the boosts we're giving rather than the price it costs (which is why I generally only assume +MT, maybe +hit or -WT).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because the extra cost is already superfluous. When you compare an Axe user to a Sword user, you don't give the Axe user a Steel Axe while giving the Sword user an Iron Sword simply because the cost is closer. Unless the item really starts to look costly, I go with the boosts we're giving rather than the price it costs (which is why I generally only assume +MT, maybe +hit or -WT).

Either I said it wrong or you misinterpreted. I'll try to elaborate...

When comparing 2 characters, give them same forges as in...

If you give a character a Steel weapon for forge, give the other a Steel weapon for Forge as well.

Maximize the MT for both weapons. Then, look at which weapon has the lower cost AFTER maxed MT and adjust stats based on which is most beneficial for the character till the pricing for both weapons comes equal or real close.

EDIT: Updated the first post with funds data prior C19 with a list of items I'm accounting into the funds (as I think they're likely sold). This is only including items listed in the "Item Locations" page. Feel free to add or remove some of them.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Sirius

[dondon151]

Why shouldn't they be at close levels? I haven't used Oscar in a while, but I do know that staves can occasionally give more experience than combat. Personally, I usually promote just about my entire team in chapter 17, and that includes Mist.

I never promote my entire team until at least chapter 18, and Mist is nowhere near 20/0.

My gripe is not just that Mist is getting BEXP. My gripe is that Mist is getting BEXP whereas Oscar is not, because under this circumstance, even factoring in that BEXP is more efficient at lower levels than at higher levels, the two should not be at the same level, or within 2 levels of each other, or whatever.

[Dat Nick]

who the fuck ever said Oscar's not getting BEXP? All I'm going is by earlier arguments that Mist can be promoted by 18.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Florete]

I never promote my entire team until at least chapter 18, and Mist is nowhere near 20/0.

My gripe is not just that Mist is getting BEXP. My gripe is that Mist is getting BEXP whereas Oscar is not, because under this circumstance, even factoring in that BEXP is more efficient at lower levels than at higher levels, the two should not be at the same level, or within 2 levels of each other, or whatever.

who the fuck ever said Oscar's not getting BEXP? All I'm going is by earlier arguments that Mist can be promoted by 18.

Pretty much the same response for me. I'm not the one who did the comparison with Oscar, but I did mention in my earlier post that I spread BEXP to my entire team, with more to spare.

[dondon151]

who the fuck ever said Oscar's not getting BEXP?

So if Oscar's getting BEXP, how are he and Mist at the same level, or even fathomably close?

[Florete]

So if Oscar's getting BEXP, how are he and Mist at the same level, or even fathomably close?

Before I answer that, can I ask you how they're not at least close? Also, can I ask what you define as "close?"

[dondon151]

OK, let's assume that Oscar has a 10 level lead on Mist when she joins (which is likely true anyway). In a span of 9 or so maps, Mist closes the level gap by 8. How does this happen? Mist doesn't get an "I'm underlevelled so I gain lots of EXP" excuse because she doesn't rely on killing enemies for EXP, so at best her CEXP gain rate is slightly faster than that of a primary combat unit's (this is what I imagine the generic healer EXP gain rate is anyway). The BEXP argument only works to a certain extent when you realize that Oscar gets it as well, and he probably got most of it earlier when it's most efficient.

[-Cynthia-]

Anyone oppose Shinon>Ulki? Shinon has the earlygame chapters of usefulness(important) and beats Ulki offensively when he rejoins. Yes, Shinon has worse durability and can't counter on the player phase, but Ulki countering is nothing special when he's 3RKOing. Ulki also has gauge to deal with and is locked to 1 range, which offsets his Mov and flight leads.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I've no objections. Ulki < Shinon.

A few things to discuss...

1. Mist's path. 10/1 or 20/1?

2. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=494991

3. Chapter 10. Stealth or brute force?

[Florete]

1. Mist's path. 10/1 or 20/1?

I don't think we'll get to the point where we can assume one path. Some people agree with the 20/1 Mist method by chapter 17, some like 10/1 immediately, some would probably go for 15/1. It'll be a struggle, but we'll probably just have to assume every possibility.

3. Chapter 10. Stealth or brute force?

Personally, I always go stealth. I find the BEXP much better than the CEXP.

[grandjackal]

1. I've no objections to Shinon>Ulki either.

2. 10/1 Mist has to deal with shittacular offense but gets rank for magic swords easier and in time, while 20/1 her offense isn't quite as bad, but has a bad sword rank to deal with. Pretty hard to choose.

3. No opinion

4. Stealth or Force? Depends on who we plan to use. If we plan to use later people, we go stealth. If mainly using characters we'll have by then, we've no reason to go stealth, unless the BEXP you gain is just that much more than hte possible CEXP we could have gained there.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't think we'll get to the point where we can assume one path. Some people agree with the 20/1 Mist method by chapter 17, some like 10/1 immediately, some would probably go for 15/1. It'll be a struggle, but we'll probably just have to assume every possibility.

We should, it's not about what people like. It's about what's the most efficient path for her. 20/1 Mist would have to move closer to the other healers from what I've seen.

Personally, I always go stealth. I find the BEXP much better than the CEXP.

That's what I'm trying to get at, whether going for the BEXP is more efficient or not. I'm thinking it may not be... it takes quite a lot of turns to do IIRC. I'm not sure but I think it may pose a problem with obtaining the items.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Sirius