Kent, Sain or Lowen?

[Shadow Mir]

Also, way to ignore Lowen's 5 point defensive lead and overall higher avoid due to actually having support partners that give avoid.

Other than the fact that Lowen has problems getting his supports. Isadora and Harken come late, there's a move gap between him and Eliwood, Rebecca also has to contend with a move gap, and she's also an archer. Marcus isn't being used once lategame rolls around.

[_____]

Other than the fact that Lowen has problems getting his supports.

I disagree.

Isadora and Harken come late

Harken, fine, but Isadora comes, what, 3 chapters later than Fiora? You can't say Isadora comes late, and then say that Sain and Kent are getting a Fiora support.

there's a move gap between him and Eliwood

Early maps are rather small, so Lowen won't be using his full move. By the way, to get a 5 star rank on chapters 12-14, you have 38 turns to spare. An Eliwood C for Lowen is only 31 turns.

Rebecca also has to contend with a move gap, and she's also an archer. Marcus isn't being used once lategame rolls around.

lolrebecca, and Marcus not being used lategame doesn't stop Lowen from grabbing a Marcus C early on for full accuracy and avoid.

[Shadow Mir]

I disagree.

...I see that the cavalier debates are like FE7's version of Mist-Rhys. And I know how THOSE go...(AKA, neither side is willing to back down.)

Harken, fine, but Isadora comes, what, 3 chapters later than Fiora? You can't say Isadora comes late, and then say that Sain and Kent are getting a Fiora support.

OK, saying that Isadora comes late was an overstatement, but at least you agree with me on Harken.

Early maps are rather small, so Lowen won't be using his full move. By the way, to get a 5 star rank on chapters 12-14, you have 38 turns to spare. An Eliwood C for Lowen is only 31 turns.

That doesn't change the fact that Lowen supporting Eli means gimping Lowen's move advantage.

lolrebecca, and Marcus not being used lategame doesn't stop Lowen from grabbing a Marcus C early on for full accuracy and avoid.

Even though Lowen's issue is OFFENSE? And I'd still say that FirexIce isn't exactly a good support combo.

[A2ZOMG]

Stuff like ranged magic does very massive damage to Lowen as well. Lowen does not win evade from supports unless you somehow think his Eliwood support builds up in any reasonably fast time frame or if Marcus is being used past lategame.

Taking less damage matters still, because it's not just ranged magic you're going to take hits from when you advance. You have to account for all the normal physical units that are coming at you too. Lowen's massive defenses makes him by far more likely to take a hit from something else even after taking one big hit from ranged magic.

His Eliwood support is more viable than Sain's support with Kent, due to Knights Crest issues. And Marcus wtfrapes in this game due to the enemies having fail spd in general, so Marcus can be used viably with that full evade bonus he's giving and getting.

Why the hell would Sain want B Serra? He wants B Fiora because those bonuses come into play more often and form a triangle with Kent.

Fiora sucks, and Sain already overkills attack power, so what he wants more of is defense and evade, which Serra gives him. It also makes Serra better, since she's a bit short on those supports she's getting, and making your better units better is generally better than making your sucky units suck less.

No, he wins earlygame because he's there.

Chapter 16:

8/0 Kent (Iron Lance): 25.95 HP, 15.8 atk, 10.15 AS, 6.75 def

8/0 Sain (Iron Lance): 24.6 HP, 17.2 atk, 8.8 AS, 7.4 def

8/0 Lowen (Iron Lance): 28.4 HP, 15.8 atk, 8.8 AS, 9.4 def

That's a bit unrealistic, since Lowen is pretty much going to have a level lead. So Lowen is basically doing better than both of these characters when they join. Make him like level 10.

This is at Lowen's best. Note how at this point he basically takes Kent and Sain's inferior offensive stats. It only gets worse from here on out as the offensive gaps increase, but the player gradually begins to ignore Lowen's defensive leads because Kent and Sain become gods on a horse.

More like...Kent and Sain have to catch up to Lowen's stat leads for some time before they start beating him. Keep in mind, Lowen also has weaponlevel leads and thus has more immediate access to that better weaponry that is available. Edited June 23, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Shadow Mir]

His Eliwood support is more viable than Sain's support with Kent, due to Knights Crest issues.

I can't see how you can hold Knight Crest issues against Kent and Sain, but not hold that against Lowen. That sounds like a serious double standard to me.

And Marcus wtfrapes in this game due to the enemies having fail spd in general, so Marcus can be used viably with that full evade bonus he's giving and getting.

But again, Lowen's issue lies in attack, not defense.

[_____]

...I see that the cavalier debates are like FE7's version of Mist-Rhys. And I know how THOSE go...(AKA, neither side is willing to back down.)

...

I prefer Rhys.

>_<

OK, saying that Isadora comes late was an overstatement, but at least you agree with me on Harken.

It'd be stupid of me not to. I'd like to point out the DarkXAnima gives full avoid, accuracy, and crit, and half attack. That's pretty damn good.

That doesn't change the fact that Lowen supporting Eli means gimping Lowen's move advantage.

It doesn't matter if there's nowhere to go. The maps are small, and it's not like Lowen can solo the maps or anything. He is preforming well defensively, but it's not god-mode yet.

Even though Lowen's issue is OFFENSE? And I'd still say that FirexIce isn't exactly a good support combo.

He gets half attack. <_> Also, you can't tell me that he wouldn't enjoy the avoid and accuracy, considering he's only getting a B Eliwood/B Isadora.

[Shadow Mir]

...

I prefer Rhys.

>_<

To be blunt, I think Rhys isn't that good in either game. I tell you, I'd like to know what IS is thinking when they make some of these games. In Rhys's case: "Let's make a healer who joins early, but has severe durablilty issues. Let's also make light magic just plain awful, with it being heavy but weak. Plus, let's give him virtually nonexistent strength, making him get weighed down by varying amounts with his weapons. In addition, let's give him supports that either suck, give sucky bonuses, have a move difference, or a combination of the above." But I digress.

It'd be stupid of me not to. I'd like to point out the DarkXAnima gives full avoid, accuracy, and crit, and half attack. That's pretty damn good.

Well, that's true.

It doesn't matter if there's nowhere to go. The maps are small, and it's not like Lowen can solo the maps or anything. He is preforming well defensively, but it's not god-mode yet.

Ok, but what about when the maps get bigger?

He gets half attack. <_> Also, you can't tell me that he wouldn't enjoy the avoid and accuracy, considering he's only getting a B Eliwood/B Isadora.

Sure, the avoid helps, but...

Edited June 23, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Spikey]

Levels are probably only get around 20/5-10, so no. Also, speed has nothing to do with supports, so I don't know where you got that from. Lowen's 14-16 speed is enough to double nearly every enemy on the map, barring promoted stuff that isn't even common, so Kent's speed lead is a minor, at best. Also, way to ignore Lowen's 5 point defensive lead and overall higher avoid due to actually having support partners that give avoid. Kent's own affinity, Anima, isn't bad at all, but he wastes it on 2 units with Wind, which doesn't offer any avoid. Also, lolres.

So, let's see.

Lowen has...

Higher HP

Higher Defense

Slightly Higher Avoid

Kent has...

The same res as Lowen.

Oh, wow, Kent is so much more durable than Lowen. Also, Kent only wins offense when the battle units that Lowen doesn't double and Kent does, which would be... promoted enemies. If they both double, or neither double, they tie in offense. Oh, and let's not forget that Lowen's been helpful in the earlygame, too.

So, yeah, I don't see how Kent > Lowen at all.

I named average 20/20 stats to show potential; even if they don't get there. Doesn't speed count double into attack speed and thus directly into avoid? But yeah, I ignored Lowen's luck makes more than up for his lack of speed when it comes to avoid, because it should turn out awesome. Maybe I misjudge him after all these bad runs and should give him a try again.

The biggest problem is still his skill though. It could be as hard to see Lowen > Kent as Kent > Lowen, depending on what one likes.

[_____]

To be blunt, I think Rhys isn't that good in either game. I tell you, I'd like to know what IS is thinking when they make some of these games. In Rhys's case: "Let's make a healer who joins early, but has severe durablilty issues. Let's also make light magic just plain awful, with it being heavy but weak. Plus, let's give him virtually nonexistent strength, making him get weighed down by varying amounts with his weapons. In addition, let's give him supports that either suck, give sucky bonuses, have a move difference, or a combination of the above." But I digress.

I've never played PoR, so I was refering to RD.

Ok, but what about when the maps get bigger?

You're not going to be running off every map and leaving everyone behind. It's only 40 turns after the C support, and they nearly tie move, post-promotion.

Sure, the avoid helps, but...

And Lowen's accuracy is a bit shaky early on, which the support helps with.

I named average 20/20 stats to show potential; even if they don't get there. Doesn't speed count double into attack speed and thus directly into avoid? But yeah, I ignored Lowen's luck makes more than up for his lack of speed when it comes to avoid, because it should turn out awesome. Maybe I misjudge him after all these bad runs and should give him a try again.

And don't forget that Sain and Fiora don't give him any avoid, whereas Isadora, Marcus, and Eliwood all give Lowen full avoid.

The biggest problem is still his skill though. It could be as hard to see Lowen > Kent as Kent > Lowen, depending on what one likes.

Enemies have 0 luck in this game, and he's really only going to have trouble hitting with a WTD. Otherwise, he's set.

[Shadow Mir]

I've never played PoR, so I was refering to RD.

Rhys isn't that good there either. He starts with the lowest base speed of the Mercenaries, at 14, which means he gets doubled often, and a 35% growth means that he's unlikely to grow out of that for a long time, if ever.

(BTW, I was talking about PoR in my last post.)

And Lowen's accuracy is a bit shaky early on, which the support helps with.

I guess I can give you that one.

At any rate, I'm starting to think there's no clear winner here.

[_____]

Rhys isn't that good there either. He starts with the lowest base speed of the Mercenaries, at 14, which means he gets doubled often, and a 35% growth means that he's unlikely to grow out of that for a long time, if ever.

But early on, Mist gets doubled often, too, and her damage output is terrible compared to his. The only time she's really better is after-promotion, but good luck getting her there.

(BTW, I was talking about PoR in my last post.)

Thus, why I said I've never played PoR.

I guess I can give you that one.

At any rate, I'm starting to think there's no clear winner here.

I think that it's pretty obvious that Sain > Lowen > Kent, tbh. I just like trying to argue Lowen > Sain since everyone gets riled up. :3

[Shadow Mir]

But early on, Mist gets doubled often, too, and her damage output is terrible compared to his. The only time she's really better is after-promotion, but good luck getting her there.

But she grows out of it faster than Rhys. (15 speed and 50% growth) And I don't see Rhys's offensive victory as having much weight. And I disagree that she's only really better after promotion. Rhys loses durablilty to her forever (all he really has over her is Resistance, and hers isn't that bad), she has a better affinity (Water > Fire), and more move. Either way, I'm not going to discuss this any further.

I think that it's pretty obvious that Sain > Lowen > Kent, tbh.

I think Sain's the best of the three as well.

[Just call me AL]

I think that it's pretty obvious that Sain > Lowen > Kent, tbh. I just like trying to argue Lowen > Sain since everyone gets riled up. :3

How? Since the other two have enough durability to last for the entire game, I'm pretty sure Sain > Kent > Lowen.

[Kiba]

But early on, Mist gets doubled often, too, and her damage output is terrible compared to his. The only time she's really better is after-promotion, but good luck getting her there.

Thus, why I said I've never played PoR.

I think that it's pretty obvious that Sain > Lowen > Kent, tbh. I just like trying to argue Lowen > Sain since everyone gets riled up. :3

had a feeling you were doing that, doing that to the new ones are mean man

[Junkhead]

I like Kent personally. He's easier to level up than Lowen (because he wtf pwns Lyn Mode), and has that nice Anima affinity.

If Kent does than Sain have the job done x2, didn't even need to lvl up Kent, he's good...just that his luck is too bad.

[PuffPuff]

Lowen. He becomes a moving brick wall upon class change having H4x defense.

[Kiba]

Lowen. He becomes a moving brick wall upon class change having H4x defense.

actually oswin is the one who has hax defense not lowen

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

actually oswin is the one who has hax defense not lowen

But we're not talking about Oswin are we?

Lowen still has h4x defense.

[Just call me AL]

But we're not talking about Oswin are we?

Lowen still has h4x defense.

But cruddy offense. And it's been already shot that the other two can hold their own. Lowen's supports are pretty much all he has for offense, and I feel like 4/5 of his options have better choices.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Little Al

[Junkhead]

His superior CON makes use of heavier weapons, although the difference is only 1 point.

[_____]

How? Since the other two have enough durability to last for the entire game, I'm pretty sure Sain > Kent > Lowen.

Not at all. I'm not going to argue Lowen > Sain, but Lowen > Kent is pretty easy to see.

But cruddy offense. And it's been already shot that the other two can hold their own. Lowen's supports are pretty much all he has for offense, and I feel like 4/5 of his options have better choices.

His offense isn't as terrible as everyone says. I want that myth to disappear right now. First of all, 7 base strength isn't bad at all; Dorcas has that. He's also doing fairly well in the earlygame. He's not quite doubling yet, but he's taking out a decent chunk of an enemy's health and he's building up his support with Eliwood. So, he's being pretty awesome, here.

Then, Sain and Kent join. Let's compare the three.

Level 11 Kent: 28 HP, 7 Defense

Iron Lance: 17 atk, 11 AS, 104 accuracy, 26 avoid

Steel Sword: 18 atk, 10 AS, 99 accuracy, 24 avoid

Level 11 Sain: 27 HP, 8 Defense

Iron Lance: 21 atk, 10 AS, 97 accuracy, 24 avoid

Steel Sword: 22 atk, 9 AS, 92 accuracy, 22 avoid

Level 11 Lowen: 31 HP, 10 Defense.

Iron Lance: 16 atk, 9 AS, 97 accuracy, 25 avoid

Steel Sword: 17 atk, 9 AS, 92 accuracy, 25 avoid

Please note that in one level, Lowen will gain a stat in every area, so I gave him the short end of the stick here, and I didn't give him his Eliwood support yet, though I didn't give Kent and Sain their C, either.

Anyway, as you can see, Lowen's not doing too badly. The same atk as Kent when Kent has an Iron Lance and Lowen has a Steel Sword (which Lowen can wield without losing any AS), while only losing by 1 or 2 AS.

He's not doing badly.

And then, later on, his supports build up, you get the Silver Card, and buyable Silver/Killer, so everyone's killing everything. How many enemies you can face in one round, however...

Edited June 30, 2009 by Ninji

[dondon151]

His offense isn't as terrible as everyone says. I want that myth to disappear right now. First of all, 7 base strength isn't bad at all; Dorcas has that.

Dorcas also has axes, a giant level lead (more like 10-12 str), and no WTD with his stronger weapon class.

He's also doing fairly well in the earlygame. He's not quite doubling yet, but he's taking out a decent chunk of an enemy's health and he's building up his support with Eliwood. So, he's being pretty awesome, here.

Lowen does 2 more damage than Eliwood (0 if Eliwood is using Rapier), and Eliwood's offense is rather disgusting at this point, so I don't see how Lowen's taking out a "decent chunk" of HP at all.

Base Lowen has 13 atk with Iron Sword (WTA factored), which is on the far end of 3HKOing 25 HP/4 def brigands in his joining chapter.

Then, Sain and Kent join. Let's compare the three.

11 AS lets Kent (or Sain) double Steel Sword cavs, and 1 more AS lets him double all cavs. 10 AS for either him or Sain lets them double the Iron Bow archer and all mages.

Please note that in one level, Lowen will gain a stat in every area, so I gave him the short end of the stick here, and I didn't give him his Eliwood support yet, though I didn't give Kent and Sain their C, either.

This is not how probability works. I'm sick and tired of people constantly misinterpreting average stats and probability. At level 12, Lowen has the lowest chance at doubling those enemies that I listed whereas Sain and Kent have significantly higher chances.

Kent and Sain can't get supports in LM, but LowenxEliwood is an incredibly overrated support anyway.

And then, later on, his supports build up,

What supports? You mean like, B Marcus C Eliwood? Which are inferior to A Sain B Fiora or something like that?

you get the Silver Card, and buyable Silver/Killer, so everyone's killing everything. How many enemies you can face in one round, however...

Silvers aren't buyable until chapter 29, i.e. endgame.

Killers are in high demand and don't have 1-2 range. Kent and Sain's 1-2 range are superior to Lowen's, which matters a great deal more than "oh both can use killers."

Edited July 1, 2009 by dondon151

[Just call me AL]

Kent and Sain can't get supports in LM, but LowenxEliwood is an incredibly overrated support anyway.

@bolded: Basically one of the reason why I said 4/5 of Lowen's supports have better options. And Eliwood is one of those support options in question that has options better than Lowen. Edited July 1, 2009 by Little Al

[Junkhead]

His offense isn't as terrible as everyone says. I want that myth to disappear right now. First of all, 7 base strength isn't bad at all; Dorcas has that. He's also doing fairly well in the earlygame. He's not quite doubling yet, but he's taking out a decent chunk of an enemy's health.

Lowen's Offense isn't awful, people tend to rely too much on Averages, sorry.

Dorcas does indeed have 7 Str for his base, so does Hector, but they double Lowen's growth.

Lowen is very useful in early game facing those cavaliers.