Hypothetical

[nflchamp]

Since you need not care about tiers to have an opinion, I'll recreate it here.

I'm using a hypothetical to get at the underlying reason a character is ranked, so no one complain about it. I'm looking at what effect chapter difficulty plays in how we rank the characters.

If Zihark's and Mia's preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical (and they had equal availability, so that isn't in the equaion) but Zihark's chapter's are more difficult; who is better?

Feel free to explain your answer. I do have opinions on what each answer means about how you'd rank a character, but the point is to show what the board thinks.

[Zath of the Sword]

... i vote Mia but i am no sure how you define better. if ones stats are better than the other they are better. however if you are looking for how well they help out in the game then i still vote Mia Zihark is to strong when he joins and is an unnessesarly strong charecter and these charecters have a habit of giving out over time... Zihark is diffrent a little but over all Mia is better. And shes a cute girl

[_____]

Zath, did you read the OP at all?

I vote Zihark, obviously.

[Pride]

If Zihark and Mia are equal in performance in regards to both of their teams but Zihark's chapters are more difficult, than Ziharks better for helping beat a harder chapter.

[Martelé]

Assuming both Zihark and Mia are good units in their chapters, Zihark would be better.

In my opinion, the harder a chapter is, the more important is it to be good. You need better units for a hard chapter than for an easy one.

[Sain_FEH]

There are a mix of factors that decide what makes a unit good, and I think for people it varies on how you look at them. The combination of availability, base stats, growth, weapons/skills, supports, and movement all play a part in the equation. But then, I think the issue being knocked at here is - their general usefulness in the chapters they are around.

If you're going to hypothetically level the playing field between Zihark and Mia, then my vote goes for Zihark. He's a critical unit to help the weaker Dawn Brigade. I consider him the better unit because he is more useful than Mia - especially on the higher difficulty. Mia suffers from being surrounded by other good units that are as good or better than her, while Zihark is one of the best available for 3-6 and 3-13.

But, if you flip-flopped them and put Mia in the Dawn Brigade and Zihark with Ike and the gang, I would say that Mia is better based on the situation - as long as you're keeping all other factors equal. A unit's overall utility is definitely a factor in deciding, to me, how good they are.

But it's not the end-all be all. While Haar is arguably one of the most useful units in the game, I would argue that Jill is the superior unit in the long run because at similar high-levels, while her STR and DEF lags a little bit, her extra speed allowing her to double - more chances to critical and more chances to activate Stun - makes her better than Haar in my book.

I think tier lists, however, are built with utility as the main focus. Hence why Rolf ranks toward the bottom. He's not a very useful when you get him and requires babying. But once he hits Marksman he's near unstoppable in my experience.

[Zkirsche]

Neither of them would be better in that hypothetical: they would tie game. If Zihark's performance relative to his army was identical to Mia's performance relative to her army, they are both contributing equally. In hypothetical terms, the difficulty of the chapter doesn't matter, performance relative to other options are what matters.

[Florete]

kirsche's quote of Interceptor is correct. They are both performing equally relative to their team, so they are equal. If difficulty mattered that much, Ike, Haar, and Reyson would be replaced in Top tier by Sothe, Volug, and Zihark, but we all know that isn't the case.

[DragonBladeSniper]

MIA IS BETTER LOLOLOLOL (sorry had to do that, school's over! XD)

They're both very good units, they both contribute the same amount of help to their team (even though Dawn Brigade chapters are more annoying), but I still don't think that he is as useful as most would say he is. Of course he helps, but there are other strong units in the team. I would say that they are equal.

[Interceptor]

People are ignoring the hypothetical aspect of this poll entirely. You should have either changed the names ot protect the innocent, or put Mia in the "difficult" hypothetical chapters.

[NinjaMonkey]

The only redeeming feature that I feel Zihark has over Mia is his massive avoid if paired with another unit with an earth affinity. Athough he arrives halfway in part 1, already at second tier, for me he pales in comparison to even Edward, let alone Mia.

So that's what I think...

[Loki Laufeyson]

Im going with Zihark simply due to the situations he's placed in. Where he is and what hes doing makes him more useful than Mia for reasons Red Fox and others have already stated. She would most likely do the same as Zihark if she was placed in those chapters. If you recruit Zihark to the GMs (3-7) he does lose a bit of his usefulness.

[naesalaftw]

I vote Mia because i always end up never using Zihark, as my preferred SM for the DB is Edward.

[Vykan12]

The easier the chapter, the better every unit doing, so the gap between units won't necessarily be as pronounced. Let's take Geoffrey vs the CRKs and Ike vs the GMs for instance. Both are top tier in their respective armies, but the margin at which Geoffrey is beating most of his competitors is pretty low since they all do similarly vs enemies, particularly in 2-3.

[Zanarkin]

Zihark, he's helping more than mia is

[nflchamp]

I really should have changed everything to unit A and unit B. This is the internetz, I shouldn't expect both reading and comprehension from everyone. Alright, I'm basically going to screw the poll (it was largely unimportant anyways) with this post and turn this topic into discussion. If you don't care about the tier list, you probably won't care about the rest of this post (which is fine; you don't have to care about this if you don't want to).

Zihark's and Mia's performances, in respect to their teams, are completely identical with equal availability in the hypothetical situation. As an extention, in respect to their teams, they bring equal utility. Zihark's chapters are more difficult, though. In the tier list here, characters are compared against the rest of the team and not the enemies. Due to this, the correct answer within the current tier setting is Mia. Chapter difficulty is the key factor here.

There are 2 variables that contribute to chapter difficulty:

1) Enemy Strength.

2) PC Strength.

If 1) is the variable that causes one chapter to be more difficult than another then, by current tier standards, the answer to the hypothetical question is Neither. The change in Enemy Strength means nothing as PCs are only compared to other PCs.

If 2) is the variable that causes one chapter to be more difficult than another then, by currect tier standards, the answer to the hypotherical question is Mia. For a chapter to be more difficult due to PC Strength, the team of PCs must be weaker. The stronger the team, the tougher it is to contribute utility. The PC on the stronger team is better since they provided the same utility when it was more difficult to do so.

Both Enemy Strength and PC Strength play a part in the difficulty of every chapter. As such, PC strength is always part of the reason a chapter is more difficult than another. Therefore, as Zihark's chapters are more difficult than Mia's, Mia has to be the better of the two characters in the hypothetical situation here.

[Vykan12]

The change in Enemy Strength means nothing as PCs are only compared to other PCs.

That says nothing about how much disparity there is between each unit.

We could have a tier list that says:

Top

Caineghis

Giffca

Giffca

Giffca

Giffca

and another that says

Ike

Oscar

Boyd

Rolf

Lethe

Caineghis may be top tier, but the margin in which he's beating the rest of the cast is so small that he's fairly replacable. Ike, on the other hand, is way ahead of everyone below him.

[dondon151]

That says nothing about how much disparity there is between each unit.

Don't you have to assume that this disparity is equal?

"If Zihark's and Mia's preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical"

[nflchamp]

That says nothing about how much disparity there is between each unit.

You are correct. What you quoted says nothing about the differences between each unit. This does:

Zihark's and Mia's preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical (and they had equal availability, so that isn't in the equaion)

Edit: And I was beat to it.

Edited June 19, 2009 by nflchamp

[Vykan12]

Assuming that would seem both too convoluted and too far removed from an actual Zihark vs Mia comparison.

There's still something you said that I can't quite seem to grasp:

The stronger the team, the tougher it is to contribute utility. The PC on the stronger team is better since they provided the same utility when it was more difficult to do so.

This seems so abstract I cannot really put it into any meaningful context. Could you perhaps make a specific example where this applies?

[nflchamp]

Assuming that would seem both too convoluted and too far removed from an actual Zihark vs Mia comparison.

Yes, I shouldn't have used the names. Already been over that.

There's still something you said that I can't quite seem to grasp:

The stronger the team, the tougher it is to contribute utility. The PC on the stronger team is better since they provided the same utility when it was more difficult to do so.

This seems so abstract I cannot really put it into any meaningful context. Could you perhaps make a specific example where this applies?

Any DB vs. any GM is pretty much the idea. Units have to be on seperate teams or it'll be a direct comparison and this is pointless. Now follow along:

GM chapters are generally considered easier than DB chapters.

Therefore, the GM are stronger than the DB.

It is more difficult to gather utility, either positive or negative, on a stronger team.

Therefore, the utility gathered on a stronger team is worth more than the utility gathered on a weaker team.

As such, a good DB member is able to easily gain large amounts of utility because his/her team is weak while a good member of the GM has difficulties gaining utility because his/her team is strong. However, the small amount of utility the GM member gains is worth as much as the large amount of utility the DB member gains because it is more difficult for the GM member (and/or it is easier for the the DB memeber) to gain utility.

In my hypothetical, the point was supposed to be that the characters had equal utility, making the character in the stronger team clearly better. The wording might have confused you about how much utility the two actually had, which is my fault as much as yours. I apologize if that is the case.

[Progenitus]

Examples are always the best, so I'm going to start with one.

Let's suppose that we have the GMs. We have a general idea of how all the units stack up against each other (Ike/Haar at the top, people like Gatrie and Titania right below, then people below them like Oscar/Mia, then people like Boyd/Soren are a step down, etc). Now let's say taht every single generic enemy in the GM chapters is now replaced with HM tigers (~39 att, 140ish hit before any authority stars, etc.. Let's just say we hacked the game and changed the enemies), but the GMs don't get any stronger or weaker. Let's call the GMs fighting the regular generics team 1, and the GMs fighting these HM tigers team 2. We all know these tigers are frickin godly compared to the enemies the GMs usually face, so clearly team 2 will be the team here fighting the harder enemies.

Now of course the pecking order of the PCs doesn't really change (Ike/Haar will still be at the top, etc.). However, if we took the same unit from both teams, they don't actually have the same utility.

Let's take Ike as an example. In team 1, Ike gets like 5HKO'd and faces decent hit rates (maybe 50 hit or so). In return he kills enemies in 1-2 rounds. Now let's take Boyd. He's like 3HKO'd and faces maybe 60 hit. In return he kills enemies in 2-3 rounds. (Due to the fact that enemy stats vary so much because the enemies are different classes and use different weapons, I can only give a general range of how many hits Ike/Boyd can receive before dying and how many rounds they require to kill, but the general idea should suffice). As you can see, while Ike is beating Boyd, Boyd is kinda passable, which means if you replace Ike with Boyd, you'll have a harder time but it'll be manageable.

But now let's look at team 2. Ike is now getting 3HKO'd at higher hit rates (like 70 hit or so). He 2 rounds back. Boyd gets 2HKO'd at like 80 hit or so. He 3 rounds back.

The gaps between Ike and Boyd didn't go anywhere. Ike can survive about 50% more hits than Boyd, and takes 1 fewer round to kill. However, Boyd's performance at this point is actually pretty crappy, which means replacing Ike with Boyd is going to make your game noticeably harder.

In other words, Ike on team 2 is a lot more critical to the GMs than Ike on team 1. I would certainly argue that Ike on team 2 is the more useful one.

Any DB vs. any GM is pretty much the idea. Units have to be on seperate teams or it'll be a direct comparison and this is pointless. Now follow along:

GM chapters are generally considered easier than DB chapters.

Therefore, the GM are stronger than the DB.

It is more difficult to gather utility, either positive or negative, on a stronger team.

Therefore, the utility gathered on a stronger team is worth more than the utility gathered on a weaker team.

As such, a good DB member is able to easily gain large amounts of utility because his/her team is weak while a good member of the GM has difficulties gaining utility because his/her team is strong. However, the small amount of utility the GM member gains is worth as much as the large amount of utility the DB member gains because it is more difficult for the GM member (and/or it is easier for the the DB memeber) to gain utility.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Why would utility have different values? Especially, why would the unit with "more utility" be inferior to the unit with "less utility"? You'll need to elaborate more because I'm not seeing it.

And it's not necessarily that the GMs are "stronger" than the DB. The fact that the DB enemies are tougher also plays a role.

For example, compare a 3-6 HM tiger to a generic enemy the GMs face in part 3. In most cases the tiger roflstomps. They have a lot more att, a lot more hit, and a lot more HP/def (excluding generals) to make up for the fact that they get doubled by more PCs. If you replaced the GM enemies with HM tigers, or replaced the 3-6 and 3-13 enemies with loltier2 jokes, the difficulty would change drastically.

Even in part 1 the DB enemies just get stronger at a faster rate. For example, in 1-1 the enemies start at level 5. But by 1-3 they're already at ~10, PLUS now instead of lolbronze they're using steel, which is like +6 att just from their weapon. By 1-E the enemies are at level 17-19, which is about a 13 level increase over about 8 chapters (I'm ignoring 1-9). On the other hand, the enemies in 3-P start at level 6, and at 3-11 they are mostly level 14-16. The enemy level only went up about 9 in 9 chapters (I picked 3-11, becasue 3-E enemies are actually weaker than 3-11 enemies, lawl).

In fact, you shouldn't even think in terms of "GM PCs are stronger than DB PCs", but rather "the gap between GM PCs and GM enemies is a lot smaller than the gap between DB PCs and DB enemies".

[Erock]

Bill is the better character. If the enemies are harder, then you have to worry about everyone dying. IF Joe is the Jeigan, and everyone else need him to take hits and cripple enemies, then Bill being able to kill units by himself would make him a very good unit, while Bob just being average on his team would be meh. (Assuming they have good stats and growths.)

Also, Bill would make hard chapters easier, while Bob just is another character.

[nflchamp]

The Ike 1 and his team are facing weaker enemies than Ike 2 and his team example doesn't do justice to the situation. The reason is because Ike 1 and Ike 2 (along with their teams) are actually identical. The entirety of the difference between Ike 1 and Ike 2 is enemy strength. The difference in enemies might change how the situation looks, but Ike 1's and Ike 2's performances relative to their teams are equal. Or rather, Ike 1 = Ike 2 despite the change in enemies.

In other words, your assertion that Ike 2 > Ike 1 involves ranking relative to enemies.

However, the small amount of utility the GM member gains is worth as much as the large amount of utility the DB member gains because it is more difficult for the GM member (and/or it is easier for the the DB memeber) to gain utility.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Why would utility have different values? Especially, why would the unit with "more utility" be inferior to the unit with "less utility"? You'll need to elaborate more because I'm not seeing it.

I'm not sure why everyone is having difficulty with this concept, really. You even used it yourself to get to Ike 2 > Ike 1. The concept is simply this: the more difficult it is do something the more doing that something is worth. In your Ike 1 and Ike 2 example it is more difficult for any PC in Ike 2's team to do well in the chapter than it is for any PC in Ike 1's team (due to stronger enemies). Therefore, Ike 2 (who is good) gains more utility than Ike 1 (who is also good). I simply apply the same concept to gaining utility. It is more difficult to gather utility, either positive or negative, on a stronger team. Therefore, the utility gathered on a stronger team is worth more than the utility gathered on a weaker team.

And it's not necessarily that the GMs are "stronger" than the DB. The fact that the DB enemies are tougher also plays a role.

For example, compare a 3-6 HM tiger to a generic enemy the GMs face in part 3. In most cases the tiger roflstomps. They have a lot more att, a lot more hit, and a lot more HP/def (excluding generals) to make up for the fact that they get doubled by more PCs. If you replaced the GM enemies with HM tigers, or replaced the 3-6 and 3-13 enemies with loltier2 jokes, the difficulty would change drastically.

Even in part 1 the DB enemies just get stronger at a faster rate. For example, in 1-1 the enemies start at level 5. But by 1-3 they're already at ~10, PLUS now instead of lolbronze they're using steel, which is like +6 att just from their weapon. By 1-E the enemies are at level 17-19, which is about a 13 level increase over about 8 chapters (I'm ignoring 1-9). On the other hand, the enemies in 3-P start at level 6, and at 3-11 they are mostly level 14-16. The enemy level only went up about 9 in 9 chapters (I picked 3-11, becasue 3-E enemies are actually weaker than 3-11 enemies, lawl).

In fact, you shouldn't even think in terms of "GM PCs are stronger than DB PCs", but rather "the gap between GM PCs and GM enemies is a lot smaller than the gap between DB PCs and DB enemies".

I've already said that enemy strength is part of what makes a chapter difficult. PCs are always partially to blame for making a chapter difficult though. If the DB cannot keep up with enemy growth (at least statistically) while the GM can, then that is a fault of the DB that makes them weaker than the GM.

[Sain_FEH]

In fact, you shouldn't even think in terms of "GM PCs are stronger than DB PCs", but rather "the gap between GM PCs and GM enemies is a lot smaller than the gap between DB PCs and DB enemies".

I think this is probably the best way to describe it - perfectly worded. It's not necessarily that the GMs are better - some DB units can actually grow to be better than characters of a similar class in other parts - it's that the disparity between allies and enemies is smaller outside of the DB making those chapters easier and the DB units *relatively* more useful.

Rolf can become a better unit than Shinon, but Shinon is relatively more useful because he doesn't start at Lvl. 1 doing crap damage. The disparity between Rolf and enemies is greater than the gap between Shinon and enemies.

I'd say this is as close to philosophy as we'll be getting on this forum any time soon, heh.