Wi-Fi Battles: "What is 'cheap'?"

[Meteor]

Dazzle can be chosen by either player, making criticals entirely preventable. Preventable != cheap

I am assuming most serious players would want to survive a Berserker's Brave Axe or seriously dent a Swordmaster, so a max HP/def Sage is certainly reasonable.

[Capracanis]

Well, that's too bad.

Really? Wow. I can't wait for it to happen to you and hear you bitch.

If they stay out of your range you need to waste 1 attack to move a unit to spot them. It's a no-brainer that they'll win. I think it's cheap. I mean, My team has 2Swdmstrs 2Heros and 1Fal.Kn.

The Fal.Kn has move of 12 (boots) to scout for enemies while the Hero's Hand Axe the melle units for the Swdmstrs to go in for the kills. A good turn can have me kill 2-4 units. The downfall is that they know where I am, unlike the sniper's who are stealthy. My way is somewhat the equivilant.

I personally hate Dazzle because that means I wasted my money macing out the crit of all my braves and other weapons. I mean, I'm making a team, currently consisting of 2Swdmstrs, a Brzrkr, a Sage (using Thoron) and Sniper because they'll have the highest critical %. A Sniper has a potential of 70% and I believe a Berzerker is 78%. (With Maxed Killers)

I'd be fucked. Dazzle also is the bane of my current team because my Navvar has a maxed Levin Sword with MAG of 11 so he has atk of 30 with it equipped and can potentially kill some characters (definitely Wolf who's RES is 0, reclassed) in 1 round. His Crit's have taken down so many people in 1 hit (44% Crit chance) Not to mention my Radd has about 64% with his Wo Doa maxed. Shiida's Str is only 13 so her critical hit rate of 53% comes in handy when fighting a Pal or HorseMan with her Winged Lance. I'm sure critical has saved our asses many a time.

I think cards are a pain in the ass. I mean Judgement, Apotrope, Dazzle; Fuck you. I miss the old way of playing where only 1 unit could atk in multiplayer (FE: GBA) That shit was challenging because there wasn't the chance of having 3/5 team members killed in 1 turn and then having the odds stacked against you. It was actually 'fair', though the gameplay was different because it weas not played like the main story. Fog of War doesn't help either. I think that's a bit of bullshit the range that you can see is definitely bullshit. FE:SD is probably one of, if not THE worste game, despite being the first. 6,7,8,9 & 10 were improvements because of the support system and the fact that units actually had Resistance. Hell, even Tracia and GotHW were improvements. I didn't like that your lords came on horses but what the hell... At least you didn't have a piece of shit Paladin at the start and you got Lex early and levelled fast. This game has a great story but not only lacks the fucking humorous thieves and supports but growth rates that my generation has grown used to. I think the game itself can be cheap. There should at least be an alternate way of fighting in WiFi. They should call it 'Classic Multiplayer' and make it in the 5-man, 4-team, 1-Atk style of the FEs for GBAs.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Capracanis

[Meteor]

Would you prefer no fog of war? Then you'd really be fucked. 3-4 sages passing around the Swarm + Ballistae killing you from 10 squares away is worse than being killed from 3 via Longbow. Fog gives the second player a chance in hell of winning. If you want things to be this unbalanced, then you will find that the game is truly "cheap."

Also, use better units if you don't want to lose. 2 Heroes? WTF? Swordmasters and especially Horsemen rape the living shit out of Heroes. Falconknights can even be one rounded by Snipers. You aren't losing because because of cheap tactics; you're losing from poor unit choices.

[dondon151]

Really? Wow. I can't wait for it to happen to you and hear you bitch.

You have no fucking clue. I used to play competitive Pokemon a lot and I had to face numerous strategies that I was unprepared for. Every so often I'd go up against a Baton Pass team that I would be completely unprepared to face, lacking any hazers or phazers or Pokemon that could effectively deal with opponents in the chain, or I'd go up against a stall team with Pokemon unprepared to break into their counters. As much as I'd like to bitch about that, it's my fault for not being prepared and not being able to adapt adequately.

I've also been playing competitive SSBM for quite awhile. I play Ness almost exclusively, which means I get a shitload of unfair matchups like Falco, Marth, or Sheik, and as much as I'd like to bitch about low tier johns, it's my problem for not being able to outplay my opponents or for being crappy with high and top tier characters.

Seriously, the only variable to winning and losing is your own skill. You can't possibly control how skilled the opponent is relative to you, nor can you control the tendencies of a matchup that you don't know in advance. If you can't win, it's your own fault. If you want to win with your 2 heroes and 1 FK, you'd better think of some damn good strategies to counter shit like snipers and horsemen, or make a new team with better characters.

Edited July 8, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Ah, competitive Pokemon. I still remember my badass triple dragon team (someone called it gay but w/e), the Tyranitar + Rhyperior team I made (heh, Su(b)Perior), and my uber team with Taunt Mewtwo + Sub & Calm Mind Giratina-O. Ah, them were the days. Of course that was Shoddy Battle...

Anyway, to get to the point in here: simply use a better team. 4 Paladins is, hate to say, a fuckton of units. One can use them as a scout, but I wouldn't advocate more than one. It simply hogs good units like Snipers, Horseman, and Swordmasters. Like I've said, a balanced team with a Sniper, Horseman, Paladin, Sage, and a choice of a second Sniper, Horseman, or even a Berserker will do. I'm not a major fan of Swordmasters because of the lack of uber Brave Bow, but I'll give them credit for not being weak to a Poleaxe.

[Meteor]

I would give Berserkers a much more definite spot on the team rather than your last chance unit. I would consider them a staple second only to Sages.

* Most suited to kill off slightly weakened opponents (6+ extra damage can make a difference)

* Poleaxes fuck up Horsemen

* Best counterattack damage of the melee units

* They pretty much single-handedly keep Generals and Dracoknights out of Wi-Fi

* Force Sages to max HP and Def, or fear ORKO without counterattack

* Waterwalking is nearly useless, but they have the option

My team suggestion is: Sage/Sorcerer, Berserker, and then three other good units [ballastician, Berserker, Horseman, Paladin, Sniper, Swordmaster]. I recommend against using more than 2 of any class.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Meteor

[Colonel M]

Only reason for a 2nd Sniper would've been the extra Longbow, which meant a near-guarantee on killing things. Horseman is just the Brave Bow or maybe having a Levn!Horseman on the side, but yeah Berserker does seem to fit better.

Though as far as nuking a Horseman, I dunno. They have to have a major Hit increase to accomodate the Sword ones. Minor note is Hammer!Hero can nuke a General too, but definitely not the DracoKnight. Berserkers are so powerful. Why the hell did they nerf Warrior's Spd so much?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheezperson]

Generals: I think every class can give a reason why they're not playable (think about it).

Heros: Still suck on wifi

Warriors: These guys would be BEASTS on wifi if it weren't for that speed thing. Seriously, they'd add so much to the game.

Berserkers: Still the best class ever =D

[Colonel M]

I know Heroes suck on WiFi and Generals too. One doesn't need to tell me why on those (low Spd caps, Heroes isn't too bad but still susceptible to Swordmasters and Horseman on top of rather mediocre power). If their Spd cap was higher, like toward Berserker or even Sniper range, they'd be a hell of a lot better shape.

[Meteor]

Longbows are pretty awesome, so I wouldn't write off dual Snipers. I thoroughly enjoy my Levin Horseman but Snipers don't have to worry about being taken out in a single round. They're not all that similar in my mind.

A forged Poleax with 110 Hit has 90% (really 98%) accuracy on normal terrain. Supports can lower or raise this, and the throne will knock it down to by 20%. Under most conditions, it'll probably be around 80% accuracy which is not significant enough to avoid to count on for salvation. Remember there are also Ridersbanes which will punish even a point of HP being gone.

Considering even Sages can double Generals, perhaps that was inaccurate of me to say they are warded off by Berserkers. The Dracoknight thing stands, however.

[Colonel M]

What's sad is Warriors can't even double Generals nor ORKO them (with WTA they plop about 58 damage).

Brave Bow coming off 30 Str sure hurts like hell though until you realize lolnoquadruple.

Screw it: I'm going to consider making a WiFi team. Ballistae, Sage, Sniper, Horseman, and a Berserker. Seem a bit too much on the ranged side of things?

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

What's the purpose of a sage in a wi-fi team?

[Colonel M]

What's the purpose of a sage in a wi-fi team?

Warp, Swarm, Fortify is there. Forged Thoron hurts a hell of a lot (23 base Mt? OUCH!)

[Capracanis]

Besides map 3, I have no issues with Wi-Fi tactics.

Your situations are dumb; Snipers cannot ORKO a Paladin with a Brave Bow nor a Sage with the Longbow.

you're obviously not considering Forged Long Bow and sages having defence of anywhere from 5-12 and their speed as well as their hp.

It is possible. Also, who said the pally is maxed def? Pal Spd max = 25 Sniper max speed = 29. That's a double hit, quad with Braves and Maxed Braves can potentially killl the paladin.

That WiFi Team isnt oo much ranged. It's annoying as fuck but if you can pull it off... The only annoyance is the Berzerker who can never be doubled thanks to maxed speed and must always counter if it has a Hand axe unles it's against a long-bow.

I agree that warriors have shit speed but they have good Def. What is it? Potentailly a max of 28? I like Heros because they can sue swords/axes. Finally, a sword unit that doesn't use a Levin for Range. That an Ogma and Caesar don't do so well with other classes except maybe Horseman.

[Colonel M]

Caesar is a bit better with Levin Horseman due to the 30% Mag growth and still retaining HP growth. Def might be an issue though: 15% growth as a Horseman in general, so I might have to smash some General into him. At least I get a Bow rank. >_>

Personally I find Levin Horseman > Levin Swordmasters, though the latter isn't Poleaxe weak and at least has the Mag class for a guaranteed 30% growth in Mag.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheezperson]

What's the purpose of a sage in a wi-fi team?

Every team (unless it's a gimmicked team) needs one of these (or a sorcerer). Warp staves are the name of the game!

[Sylvan]

Haven't read the whole thing. But "cheap" is going first on map 3 and map 2.

Going first on map 2 there are numerous ways of obtaining an unloseable advantage. (i.e. killing 2 enemy units and being hidden in fog)

It's an even bigger advantage than going first on map 3. Luckily, not many teams actually exploit this, since it basically has to be a custom team to do this.

Those are tactics. And probably can be considered counterpicks, (I was going to use my team on map 2 as a counterpick in the first tourney, but decided against it)

Aside from those two maps, the only other thing I would say that could fall under "cheap" would be RNG abuse. Or other ways of getting units to have obscene above-average stats. (e.g. 5 sages with max def and mag or something)

[Meteor]

you're obviously not considering Forged Long Bow and sages having defence of anywhere from 5-12 and their speed as well as their hp.

It is possible. Also, who said the pally is maxed def? Pal Spd max = 25 Sniper max speed = 29. That's a double hit, quad with Braves and Maxed Braves can potentially killl the paladin.

I most certainly am considering forges. A Sage with 59 HP and 15 Def cannot be KO'd by a Longbow, barring a critical hit.

Who said the Paladin won't have max Def? It's definitely possible, and wholly advantageous. With 60 HP/30 Def/10 Res (6 base + 7 from Pure water gives this for 4 turns), nothing in the game besides crits can take a Paladin down in one round. Crits can be negated by Dazzle. You're complaining about preventable things.

[Sylvan]

30 def paladins are arguable the best units in the game. They cannot be killed from a forged pole axe or brave weapon. Plus they have very high movement. But getting a 30 def paladin is arguable cheap. Since very few characters will actually get close enough to get 30 def. It's possible to get one 30 def paladin, usually using Merric (who has low str) but getting them is usually done via hacks or RNG abuse.

[Colonel M]

30 def paladins are arguable the best units in the game. They cannot be killed from a forged pole axe or brave weapon. Plus they have very high movement. But getting a 30 def paladin is arguable cheap. Since very few characters will actually get close enough to get 30 def. It's possible to get one 30 def paladin, usually using Merric (who has low str) but getting them is usually done via hacks or RNG abuse.

A 20/20 Katua with Pegasus Knight -> Paladin ends with about 21 Def on average. Quite possible to RNG-abuse her a bit and slap a DracoShield or two to accomodate it.

[Sylvan]

A 20/20 Katua with Pegasus Knight -> Paladin ends with about 21 Def on average. Quite possible to RNG-abuse her a bit and slap a DracoShield or two to accomodate it.

Assume they get 22 def (just for an even number) that'll take 4 draco shields to get her to 30. There generally won't be enough left over to use on the rest of the team. Having just 1 30 def paladin isn't all that great, considering they are better in defence than in offence. Seeing a team of two or three 30 def paladins is very rare.

[Colonel M]

Closest I got, Def-wise and not named Gordon was Cavailer -> Paladin!Nabarl which has 22.1 Def. Though now he has 19.7 Spd on top of that average-wise.

EDIT: Scrap that, I was looking at Luck.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[quanchino]

Map 6 is actually very cheap, if you know how to exploit it. The advantage also goes to the player one, and the only way to counter it is by team customization.

[Capracanis]

Assume they get 22 def (just for an even number) that'll take 4 draco shields to get her to 30. There generally won't be enough left over to use on the rest of the team. Having just 1 30 def paladin isn't all that great, considering they are better in defence than in offence. Seeing a team of two or three 30 def paladins is very rare.

My team, Cavalcade has Palla and Catria with 30 DEF as Pally. Donno how the hell I did it but the team weould be godly if I'd ahve chosen maxed Braves over maxed Killers.

[Sylvan]

Map 6 is actually very cheap, if you know how to exploit it. The advantage also goes to the player one, and the only way to counter it is by team customization.

I don't think so, personally I think map 6 is one of the more balanced maps. The same basic principal applies to map 6 that applies to map 1 and map 4 (i.e. player 2 mustn't rush) . While map 5 it works for player 2, rather than player 1. I think there is a difference between "cheap" maps and maps that people can employ tactics.