Question about the Christian God

[Kedyns Crow]

And it is all a matter of the creations' choice. Yes, God could have easily made us mindless robots with no decision making abilities, but he wanted us to have actual life.

So God gave us free will, but in order to get into heaven he wants us to behave like mindless robots?

[Meteor]

The more I ponder the question, the further I find myself from an answer.

On of the stumbling blocks for me seems to be: If He's perfect, would His creations not also be perfect?

Edited July 10, 2009 by Meteor

[Agro]

The more I ponder the question, the further I find myself from an answer.

On of the stumbling blocks for me seems to be: If He's perfect, would His creations not also be perfect?

That was most of the argument in the last religion thread.

[Esau of Isaac]

He gave all of us the perfect opportunity to be saved from eternal separation, but whether accept it or not is all up to us.

I tell you that when you die, you will suffer eternal damnation if you do not kiss my feet every day and give me generous amounts of money whenever you gain any funds.

How do you react?

Yes, God could have easily made us mindless robots with no decision making abilities, but he wanted us to have actual life.

Completely mindless argument. There is no difference in how we think now and how would think if God invented a world in which everyone always chose the best choice. God is attributed with the ability to do anything; there's no arguing about rules he had to follow.

Not necessarily--if God was only Omniscient and not Omnipotent that wouldn't be so.

Yes it would be. Omniscience necessitates a knowledge of all, including what will happen.

No, if she were omniscient, as in "all seeing", she would only know what we think were going to do, not necessarily what will happen.

Omniscience is not all-seeing, it's all-knowing.

[Le Communard]

Omniscience is not all-seeing, it's all-knowing.

I'd heard them used interchangeably before, but I looked it up and it seems you're right. What I meant from the beginning was "all seeing", though, I just used the wrong term.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Le Communard

[Dies Mori]

Omniscience is not all-seeing, it's all-knowing.

To be fair, one could take the menaing of omniscience in the abridged manner Gaunt is leaning to. Granted, however, that with the added omnipresence, his point remains moot anyhow.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Memento Mori

[California Mountain Snake]

I always feel sad when I read these threads and realize how many people in this world can't be saved from their own intellectual smallness.

[Rodykitty]

Except he knows what we're going to do, so really we don't have any free will.

"There are many roads, but only one narrow path leads to heaven."

Or something along those lines. We do have free will, we have the free will to actively choose to serve God, which then we are choosing to walk down a given path, but all other paths are not ordained by him.

People that say we don't have free will say so just to make God look like some ruthless dictator. His plan, will, blessings, trials, and events come for us by our choice to allow him to.

For the omnipotent/omniscience arguments, I am sure if God knew everything, he would know all possible outcomes for your outcomes, not just a single outcome for a pre-determined action.

I tell you that when you die, you will suffer eternal damnation if you do not kiss my feet every day and give me generous amounts of money whenever you gain any funds.

How do you react?

Considering we should respect God, we should definitely kiss his feet and worship him. He's God, above us. Worship is only a problem if it's a false idol, an angel, another human being, or pretty much anything that isn't God himself.

God gives financial security for you giving what isn't a generous amount of money. 10% of your earnings, though he will bless you for giving extra as offering. This kind of reward is the opposite tone of what is coming out of your mouth in this quote.

Eternal damnation comes from people's failures to seek God. You could pretend to worship him and never truly receive him.

I also don't agree with the idea that "oh, he'll just forgive you of your sins" as an excuse to keep sinning (I'm saying this now because I know it always gets brought up). Even if this is true, you're pretty much giving up all spiritual security. The point in Jesus forgiving our sins is not solely to forgive our sins, but for us to receive God into our hearts. Actually keeping God in your heart is the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

[Phoenix Wright]

"There are many roads, but only one narrow path leads to heaven."

Or something along those lines. We do have free will, we have the free will to actively choose to serve God, which then we are choosing to walk down a given path, but all other paths are not ordained by him.

People that say we don't have free will say so just to make God look like some ruthless dictator. His plan, will, blessings, trials, and events come for us by our choice to allow him to.

For the omnipotent/omniscience arguments, I am sure if God knew everything, he would know all possible outcomes for your outcomes, not just a single outcome for a pre-determined action.

Considering we should respect God, we should definitely kiss his feet and worship him. He's God, above us. Worship is only a problem if it's a false idol, an angel, another human being, or pretty much anything that isn't God himself.

God gives financial security for you giving what isn't a generous amount of money. 10% of your earnings, though he will bless you for giving extra as offering. This kind of reward is the opposite tone of what is coming out of your mouth in this quote.

Eternal damnation comes from people's failures to seek God. You could pretend to worship him and never truly receive him.

I also don't agree with the idea that "oh, he'll just forgive you of your sins" as an excuse to keep sinning (I'm saying this now because I know it always gets brought up). Even if this is true, you're pretty much giving up all spiritual security. The point in Jesus forgiving our sins is not solely to forgive our sins, but for us to receive God into our hearts. Actually keeping God in your heart is the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

Jesus is not God's son. Jesus was not crucified. Jesus did not die for our sins. But, Jesus was a prophet.

Why does God need money again?

[Balcerzak]

Or something along those lines. We do have free will, we have the free will to actively choose to serve God, which then we are choosing to walk down a given path, but all other paths are not ordained by him.

People that say we don't have free will say so just to make God look like some ruthless dictator. His plan, will, blessings, trials, and events come for us by our choice to allow him to.

Right. I'm sure that was exactly Martin Luther's goal when he painstakingly explained why humanity has no free will.

[Shuuda]

People that say we don't have free will say so just to make God look like some ruthless dictator. His plan, will, blessings, trials, and events come for us by our choice to allow him to.

The fact that God gives us free will makes him seem even more of a ruthless dictator.

God gives us a choice, but if we use our free will to choice any other path other than the one he wants us to choose, no matter how virtuous that path is, we suffer for all eternity. In the same way, a dictator cannot force you to obey him, but if you don't, you'll get punished horribly. At the end of the day, it is not a matter of free will, but a matter of fair choice, which God clearly does not offer. Coupled with the fact that there is next to no real evidence for his existence, and the fact that many people in the world will never so much hear his name, a large amount of people, no matter how good they are, are doomed to damnation. This is essentially blackmail where a large percent of people do not even get told they are being blackmailed.

So God is not just a ruthless dictator. He is an egoistic, childish, sadistic, ignorant being who does not even understand his own creation. If God was a human, he would be considered many times worse than Hitler and Stalin put together. Somehow, people can worship his mass genocidal maniac and proclaim that he is love.

If God were truly all knowing and all loving, not only would be understand and empathise with our reasons not not believing, and he would love us unconditionally. Instead, we have an elitist God who will only save from torture you if you love him.

To be frank, anyone who thinks they can justify this is deserving of utter contempt.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Defeatist Elitist]

Let's be honest here. If you where in a Third World country, and there was some guy who had AAAAALL the power, and he was like "Do as I say or I will make you suffer", he's called a dictator. Then we have this God guy who has AAAAALL the power, and he's like "Do as I say or I will make you suffer", and he's called a benevolent father...

HMMMMMM.

Also, lol at the fact that we're not even going into the whole zero scientific evidence, thus pretty much pointless anyway argument.

[Zkirsche]

If God were truly all knowing and all loving, not only would be understand and empathise with our reasons not not believing, and he would love us unconditionally. Instead, we have an elitist God who will only save from torture you if you love him.

I believe we christians do believe that. You don't have to love him, you just merely have to be truly sorry to be forgiven.

[uguu]

I believe we christians do believe that. You don't have to love him, you just merely have to be truly sorry to be forgiven.

I believe you Christians can't even agree with each other about anything.

[Shuuda]

I believe we christians do believe that. You don't have to love him, you just merely have to be truly sorry to be forgiven.

So, if I do not love or even believe in God, but I am am truly sorry of any wrongdoings in my life, what happens?

Another thing I wonder; who deserves to suffer for eternity? Is there a crime a man could commit that eternal, never ending torture would not be an excessive punishment for?

Before you think about this, you have to begin grasping what "eternity" really means. Just like with "perfection", one should not take the meaning of "eternity" so lightly as to claim any understanding of it or the ability to get their heads around it.

And it is not a silly matter of "the first few billions of years... and the next couple of billions of years".

Edited July 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Le Communard]

Let's be honest here. If you where in a Third World country, and there was some guy who had AAAAALL the power, and he was like "Do as I say or I will make you suffer", he's called a dictator. Then we have this God guy who has AAAAALL the power, and he's like "Do as I say or I will make you suffer", and he's called a benevolent father...

Nasser is a hero of the people! He will bring Egypt in to great new age of prosperity!

...isn't it obvious--God is a Populist Demagogue.

[Zkirsche]

So, if I do not love or even believe in God, but I am am truly sorry of any wrongdoings in my life, what happens?

You are forgiven and sent to heaven.

God accepts that people stray from the path - "Love your neighbour as yourself."

Another thing I wonder; who deserves to suffer for eternity? Is there a crime a man could commit that eternal, never ending torture would not be an excessive punishment for?

It's not the action, but the reaction. If said person cares not for what he has done (Murder/Rape/Kidnapping), then he /she is sent to hell. However, if that person is truly sorry, then that person is sent to heaven.

I believe you Christians can't even agree with each other about anything.

I believe that we humans can't agree with each other about anything.

However, as a whole, christians believe that god loves humans.

Edited July 11, 2009 by kirsche

[Esau of Isaac]

Or something along those lines. We do have free will, we have the free will to actively choose to serve God, which then we are choosing to walk down a given path, but all other paths are not ordained by him.

We aren't. Our actions are deterministic, same as everything else. If God is omniscient, he knowingly commits to creating a being that will eternally suffer very frequently.

People that say we don't have free will say so just to make God look like some ruthless dictator. His plan, will, blessings, trials, and events come for us by our choice to allow him to.

People say that we don't have free will because it's true.

For the omnipotent/omniscience arguments, I am sure if God knew everything, he would know all possible outcomes for your outcomes, not just a single outcome for a pre-determined action.

Whether others are permutations that under different conditions could have happened, in reality there's really only one path that can be done.

In some other universe, with a different action and reaction, I may grow up to be the President of the US. This will not ever occur here, in this universe, which is what we are discussing.

Considering we should respect God, we should definitely kiss his feet and worship him. He's God, above us. Worship is only a problem if it's a false idol, an angel, another human being, or pretty much anything that isn't God himself.

I am God. I am above you.

Do you believe me?

God gives financial security for you giving what isn't a generous amount of money. 10% of your earnings, though he will bless you for giving extra as offering. This kind of reward is the opposite tone of what is coming out of your mouth in this quote.

No it's not. There has never been any kind of evidence that God has ever interacted with the world, let alone acted as some kind of insurance company.

Eternal damnation comes from people's failures to seek God.

And you will receive eternal damnation if you don't kiss my feet everyday.

Are you prepared to accept the possibility that you are heading into damnation?

You are forgiven and sent to heaven.

You're forgetting that whole having to receive salvation through Christ thing.

Moreover, what if God's good conflicts with his good? Let's say Man A regrets not in the past murdering a man that eventually was part of his family's ruin?

It's not the action, but the reaction. If said person cares not for what he has done (Murder/Rape/Kidnapping), then he /she is sent to hell. However, if that person is truly sorry, then that person is sent to heaven.

You arrive at your moment of salvation. You find that God despises love, and asks you if you regret loving your family and friends. Whether you answer truthfully or not, God will be aware that you are lying.

In other words, you're talking about regret for sins, when one mightn't even necessarily acknowledge that they are sins.

[Kintenbo]

Jesus is not God's son. Jesus was not crucified. Jesus did not die for our sins. But, Jesus was a prophet.

Why does God need money again?

I'm guessing you're Islamic?

He doesn't need money at all. God cares nothing about money in itself. Offerings are primarily there to support the church, since it costs money to maintain a building and it's activities. However, being generous with money if it's possible is definitely nothing God discourages! Helping others in need is a yes type of thing in God's eyes!

[Zkirsche]

I am God. I am above you.

Do you believe me?

Obviously not, you're just trying to prove a point, and will conjuer up "evidence" to back up you argument. Thus I can deduce you are not god.

You're forgetting that whole having to receive salvation through Christ thing.

Moreover, what if God's good conflicts with his good? Let's say Man A regrets not in the past murdering a man that eventually was part of his family's ruin?

Whatever, he still forgives you.

Regretting not killing is the same as not regretting to kill.

You arrive at your moment of salvation. You find that God despises love, and asks you if you regret loving your family and friends. Whether you answer truthfully or not, God will be aware that you are lying.

In other words, you're talking about regret for sins, when one mightn't even necessarily acknowledge that they are sins.

What, that makes no sense, If i answer truthfully, I am lying. Wtf?

Some people DO feel sorry for their actions.

I think there are things that everyone would share as sinful, and if you don't think they are sins, you clearly shouldn't be going to heaven.

[Kintenbo]

Whatever, he still forgives you.

Naturally, but do not forgot verses like John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9. We have to directly pray to God to accept Jesus as our savior, since we as humans are sinners, in order to gain salvation. A very simple process to reaching Heaven, but ultimately, pride and downright disbelief is what prevents it. However, the best part of gaining this salvation, nothing you can do can get rid of it. However, the punishment for sin while alive tends to be worse when you're saved, since we now know better.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Kintenbo

[Shuuda]

pride and downright disbelief is what prevents it.

What... pride as in believing that you were made in God's image? Or the pride from believing that you'll live forever in eternal bliss? Or the disbelief that is caused by making use of the brain God supposedly gave us?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Esau of Isaac]

Obviously not, you're just trying to prove a point, and will conjuer up "evidence" to back up you argument. Thus I can deduce you are not god.

I am trying to illustrate a point, and I think you're failing to understand it.

Whatever, he still forgives you.

Regretting not killing is the same as not regretting to kill.

So essentially, Charles Manson could gain entry into Heaven by truly lamenting that he had not caused the death of more people.

Okay.

What, that makes no sense, If i answer truthfully, I am lying. Wtf?

As in, God will be aware if you are lying, whether or not you try to answer disingenuously.

I think there are things that everyone would share as sinful, and if you don't think they are sins, you clearly shouldn't be going to heaven.

Why? Let's bring up the recent pocketing of the Eucharist by Prime Minister Stephen Harper; in the Catholic view, this is a despicable act worse than murder (this is one of the crimes that can only be forgiven by the Pope himself). However, I would be willing to bet that Harper doesn't find what he did a very horrible act at all.

What are these things you are saying should be regarded as sins?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Esau of Isaac

[Kintenbo]

What... pride as in believing that you were made in God's image? Or the pride from believing that you'll live forever in eternal bliss? Or the disbelief that is caused by making use of the brain God supposedly gave us?

Pride as in "I don't deserve to go to Hell" type of stuff. Pride in itself isn't that bad. It's good to be confident, but not too much.

[Shuuda]

Pride as in "I don't deserve to go to Hell"

So in other words, I am prideful for believing that I should not be tortured (notice that I do not use the word punish) for eternity for the atrocious crime of scepticism? Thus, am I destined to be tortured forever.

The fact that you make claims of people being tortured forever for such thing (or anything for that matter) in such a sober mind speaks a lot for your own morality.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Shuuda