FE9 Tier List v2

[Vykan12]

For Rhys vs Soren/Ilyana, don't forget about these:

Smash's post

Narga's post

Counter those before bringing up old comparisons.

[Reikken]

Narga's doesn't have anything that I'm contesting--it's just about Rhys's level--, and I have no reason to counter smash.

OK, so

Soren is probably 10/10 by the time Rhys promotes. And this is before most others promote. Before supports, they're pretty much exactly the same except Soren has a substantial AS lead. Rhys has slightly higher atk/res. Oh yeah, Soren also has pretty good crit, in Adept. He clearly wins on offense. On defense, their stats are about the same, but Soren has B Ike for +15 avo, and Rhys can use Nosferatu. Yes, it gets him doubled unless it was an enemy that he could double, but he heals much more damage than he receives, leaving him much better off for the next enemy attack. Effectively giving him +a lot of def for all hits except the first one and the killing blow. Unless there's an enemy that has already taken damage, in which case he won't get doubled due to killing on the counter.

By the time Rhys hits 20/12, Soren is about capped. This is pretty early. physics, etc = uber leveling. I would expect others to be liek 20/7-8. Then Rhys hits his own level cap relatively early thanks to hax0r staves. He gets a lot more hp/def/atk (/mag/res/critavo), but never beats Soren in spd.

so

2-10: Rhys >>>>

11-16?: Soren >>>>>

17-21?: Soren >>

21-24?: ~=

25-29: Rhys >>

fair assessment? y/n

and then minus on Soren for using a master seal

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Winning in the lategame may not help Rhys much specially when you have more high MOV units in your team since that would result in Rhys having stats by then but not being able to put them to much use because others beat him to the enemy. In terms of combat, Soren pretty much wins when it counts.

[Vykan12]

Why is Rhys better in late/endgame?

He gets a lot more hp/def/atk (/mag/res/critavo), but never beats Soren in spd.

You forgot to mention Soren's huge avo lead. A Ike/B Stefan = 27 avo, whereas Rhys gets 5-7 from Kieran. Soren's spd/lck combo is also higher than Rhys'.

[Shadow Mir]

Why is Rhys better in late/endgame?

He gets a lot more hp/def/atk (/mag/res/critavo), but never beats Soren in spd.

You forgot to mention Soren's huge avo lead. A Ike/B Stefan = 27 avo, whereas Rhys gets 5-7 from Kieran. Soren's spd/lck combo is also higher than Rhys'.

I'm with Vykan. I can't see Rhys better in late/endgame. Especially with Rhys losing supports to Soren.

[Colonel M]

Tbh I'm not seeing Ilyana > Rhys so well. I see Soren > him at least, but maybe it's because I'm not a fan of Ilyana anyway (so what if you have Str? Your Spd is pretty bad).

[Vykan12]

Right now I'm thinking Soren > Rhys > Ilyana unless convinced otherwise.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Reikken]

You forgot to mention Soren's huge avo lead. A Ike/B Stefan = 27 avo, whereas Rhys gets 5-7 from Kieran. Soren's spd/lck combo is also higher than Rhys'.

No, I didn't. It's not huge. They have the same spd, and Rhys has 12-13 more luck.

And there's still Nosferatu. There are 2 of them.

Soren's defense is terrible. At average stats, 10/20 Soren is getting 2HK'd by anything with more than 25 atk.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Nosferatu is also nightmarishly heavy. Only reason to use it is to recover from being hit earlier, and he won't kill with it. This is poor playing, and on top of it using a unit in a way that garuntees I'm not killing things. Nosferatanking doesn't happen with Rhys because it murders his speed so bad he WILL get doubled. He'd just take damage anyways, but now the enemy just has a better chance of hitting him.

[Reikken]

For offense, the AS loss only matters if he was doubling to begin with. Otherwise he does more damage since Nosferatu has higher mt.

"Yes, it gets him doubled unless it was an enemy that he could double, but he heals much more damage than he receives, leaving him much better off for the next enemy attack. Effectively giving him +a lot of def for all hits except the first one [when he's at full health] and the killing blow. Unless there's an enemy that has already taken damage, in which case he won't get doubled due to killing on the counter."

Edited August 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Zkirsche]

Right now I'm thinking Soren > Rhys > Ilyana unless convinced otherwise.

Soren and Ilyana are the same, Soren has better damage output in one round but Ilyana's defensive leads help her take an extra attack, balancing it out a bit. Heck, there's a case for Ilyana > Soren, considering supports.

So yeah, like Mak and Astrid, there shouldn't be a gap between them. Tbh, I'm fine with Ilyana > Rhys right now anyway.

Edited August 16, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

True, but the flipside to that quip is that Rhys will just get hit again. Granted he's slow, but at that point I'd imagine he wasn't getting doubled at least.

Getting 2RKOd is still getting 2RKOd, aside form leech killing weakened enemies, which might not heal all the damage he took in that case.

[Vykan12]

Soren has better damage output in one round but Ilyana's defensive leads help her take an extra attack, balancing it out a bit.

Perhaps early on, but in general they die in the same amount of hits.

Take like:

10/15 Soren: 32 hp, 7 def, 21 res, 19 AS, 12 lck

A Ike, B Stefan: 77 avo

10/15 Ilyana: 32 hp, 8 def, 21 res, 16 AS, 14 lck

A Mordy, B Zihark: 12 def, 25 res, 56 avo

Vs some random enemies

2x Warrior lv 2-4 (steel axe)

44 hp, 26 atk, 11 AS, 94 hit, 27 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

They both get 2HKOed unless all of Ilyana’s supporters are in range. Moreover, Soren faces 6 hit while Ilyana faces 29. After 5 rounds, Ilyana’s chances of dying are about 12% higher.

1x Wyvern Rider lv 17 (short spear)

33 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 100 hit, 22 avo, 18 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

Ilyana takes an extra hit, but again the avo makes it arguable. Soren faces 10 hit while Ilyana faces 39, and after 4 attacks Ilyana’s chances of dying are about 11% higher.

The offensive disparity is quite big as well. There’s 13 enemies in C23 that Soren can double but Ilyana can’t, and the gap only gets bigger due to a growth difference and enemies taking a jump (many more tigers/cats/promoteds from C25 onwards). I'm sure their mag disparity makes a noticeable difference too.

[Reikken]

True, but the flipside to that quip is that Rhys will just get hit again. Granted he's slow, but at that point I'd imagine he wasn't getting doubled at least.

Either I didn't explain it well enough, or you're not paying attention.

Here, I'll do it with numbers:

RHYS HP: 33

RHYS DEF: 8

RHYS ATK: 32

(20/6-7 Rhys with no supports)

ENEMY ATK: 21

ENEMY RES: 9

(lv 1 steel lance halberdier with 3 more res than it should have)

w/o Nosferatu:

- Rhys takes 13 (20/33)

- takes 13 (7/33)

- takes 13 (dies)

w/Nosferatu: "Effectively giving him +a lot of def for all hits except the first one [when he's at full health] and the killing blow"

- Rhys takes 13, heals 23 (33/33)

takes 13 (20/33) -- "...except the first one..." he lost the full 13 hp on the first hit

- takes 13, heals 23 (30/33)

takes 13 (17/33) -- "Effectively giving him +a lot of def..." he lost only 3 hp

- takes 13, heals 23 (27/33)

takes 13 (14/33) -- ditto

- takes 13, heals 23 (24/33)

takes 13 (11/33) -- ditto

- takes 13 (dies) -- "...except...the killing blow" he had less than 13 left, so he died, not getting the effective def bonus

Edited August 16, 2009 by Reikken

[-Cynthia-]

Nosferatu only has 20 uses anyway, so the "durability boost" from it won't last very long.

[Florete]

There are 2 Nosferatu's, and the competition for them is no one.

[Reikken]

only if you're regularly frontlining with him or something. There are two of them, as stated, and he only uses 1 use per round as opposed to the 2 that are often used per round.

EDIT: lol very late

Edited August 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Narga_Rocks]

True, but the flipside to that quip is that Rhys will just get hit again. Granted he's slow, but at that point I'd imagine he wasn't getting doubled at least.

Either I didn't explain it well enough, or you're not paying attention.

Here, I'll do it with numbers:

RHYS HP: 33

RHYS DEF: 8

RHYS ATK: 32

(20/6-7 Rhys with no supports)

ENEMY ATK: 21

ENEMY RES: 9

(lv 1 steel lance halberdier with 3 more res than it should have)

w/o Nosferatu:

- Rhys takes 13 (20/33)

- takes 13 (7/33)

- takes 13 (dies)

w/Nosferatu: "Effectively giving him +a lot of def for all hits except the first one [when he's at full health] and the killing blow"

- Rhys takes 13, heals 23 (33/33)

takes 13 (20/33) -- "...except the first one..." he lost the full 13 hp on the first hit

- takes 13, heals 23 (30/33)

takes 13 (17/33) -- "Effectively giving him +a lot of def..." he lost only 3 hp

- takes 13, heals 23 (27/33)

takes 13 (14/33) -- ditto

- takes 13, heals 23 (24/33)

takes 13 (11/33) -- ditto

- takes 13 (dies) -- "...and the killing blow" he had less than 13 left, so he died, not getting the effective def bonus

Okay, so that counters that. But what about how a lot of other units are ORKOing? It is probably a good thing to have Nosferatu around. If there is just no other way but to have Rhys get into a position from which he might get hit then at this point it is nice to have equipped and keep Rhys alive. But most of the time we keep him out of the way on enemy phase because other characters either kill things with forges or leave the enemy with few enough hp that it gets one hit killed. Either saving forge uses or preventing a counter or whatever. As long as Soren has the speed to double, isn't Soren still doing better than Rhys with Nosferatu? Soren faces rather low hit rates, but he's likely less reliable at staying alive. But the counter is Rhys shouldn't be tanking 4 enemies anyway.

Oh, and Nosferatu has 70 hit. Rhys has lots of luck and caps 22 skl rather early, but is enemy avo low enough that he always has 100% hit? I haven't played this game in a while but if Soren faces 15% hit rates against and Rhys has 85% hit rates for, then aren't they equally unreliable at tanking those 4 enemies? I didn't calculate anything, so Rhys might have higher hit rates than Soren has miss chance, but if he doesn't then Nosferatu doesn't really change much in their durability.

[Reikken]

On offense, yes, Soren is doing better.

Indeed, he shouldn't be taking many attacks, but if you need him to, he often can.

A 20/6 Rhys averages 129 hit with Nosferatu and no supports. Paladins are fairly speedy/lucky and might have 30ish avoid at lv 1. Snipers, Halberdiers, etc. are all slower with like 23-27 avo or less. Only swordmasters (and ravens. Later cats too) have more avoid. I would expect like 36. Less for ravens.

Then add just a B Kieran, and he gets +10 hit. So no, hitting isn't really an issue.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Zkirsche]

I probably shouldn't be doing this considering my debate with Tino, but...

Perhaps early on, but in general they die in the same amount of hits.

Oh? Chapter 13 comparison:

12/0 Soren: 23 HP, 41 Avo, 4 Def

12/0 Ilyana: 23 HP, 31 avo, 5 Def

~5 enemies 3RKO Ilyana, 2RKO Soren. However, there are less combinations that kill Soren but not Ilyana, is Soren gets attacked by a 17 Atk enemy then a 14 Atk enemy he dies, but Ilyana can face a 17 Atk enemy and a 15 Atk enemy and live.

Then let's look at them after promotion, chapter 18, giving Soren 'B' Ike, 'C' Stefan and Ilyana 'A' Mordy, 'B' Zihark. Oh, and band usage:

20/1 Soren: 31 HP, 64 Avo, 7 Def

20/1 Ilyana: 31 HP, 52 avo, 11 Def

Enemies that have 23-26 Atk 3RKO Ilyana, but 2RKO Soren. That's 9 enemies. And the avo gap is nowhere near enougth to make up for that. In the next chapter, rightfully assuming that Soren doesn't get both a HP and Def stat up's, there's 6 enemies. And this is all ignoring that Soren can die after a 20 Atk attack then a 25 atk attack or 21 Atk + 24 attacks etcetera. In fact, tehre's an archer which 4RKO's Ilyana and 3RKO's Soren. So there's another defensive lead.

Skip ahead to chapter 23, giving them both 6 levels and rightful supports:

20/7 Soren: 34 HP, 80 avo, 8 Def

20/7 Ilyana: 33 HP, 59 Avo, 12 Def

17 enemies 3RKO Ilyana, but 2RKO's Soren. Yeah, Soren's avo is very good. But if he's unlucky, he's in danger of dying. Ilyana never faces the same size threat as she's usually 3RKO'ed.

So yeah, don't scoff at Ilyana's durability lead.

[Narga_Rocks]

On offense, yes, Soren is doing better.

Indeed, he shouldn't be taking many attacks, but if you need him to, he often can.

A 20/6 Rhys averages 129 hit with Nosferatu and no supports. Paladins are fairly speedy/lucky and might have 30ish avoid at lv 1. Snipers, Halberdiers, etc. are all slower with like 23-27 avo or less. Only swordmasters (and ravens. Later cats too) have more avoid. I would expect like 36. Less for ravens.

Then add just a B Kieran, and he gets +10 hit. So no, hitting isn't really an issue.

So enemies do suck that badly in this game. I was afraid of that.

[Shadow Mir]

On offense, yes, Soren is doing better.

Indeed, he shouldn't be taking many attacks, but if you need him to, he often can.

A 20/6 Rhys averages 129 hit with Nosferatu and no supports. Paladins are fairly speedy/lucky and might have 30ish avoid at lv 1. Snipers, Halberdiers, etc. are all slower with like 23-27 avo or less. Only swordmasters (and ravens. Later cats too) have more avoid. I would expect like 36. Less for ravens.

Then add just a B Kieran, and he gets +10 hit. So no, hitting isn't really an issue.

The problem with that is the move disparity between Rhys and Kieran. Well, that and the fact that it deviates from what Kieran wants (he wants Oscar A/Marcia B).

[Zkirsche]

We're accepting Ilyana x Mordy aren't we? And Kieran has canto to help stay in range, so it's not even the same.

Plus, Oscar can easily get 'A' Tanith instead, but yeah, it does move around supports a bit. If Marcia/Oscar aren't being played or Gatrie and Tanith is, it's not impossible. Plus, Rhys can support Rofl or Mia in teh unlikely event that they are fielded.

Edited August 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Reikken]

Mist-A-Mordecai-B-Stefan imo

if we're going to be using Stefan

The problem with that is the move disparity between Rhys and Kieran. Well, that and the fact that it deviates from what Kieran wants (he wants Oscar A/Marcia B) .

Or does he? Oscar C Marcia B Rhys B would make for some very nice offense.

Anyway, when Rhys is closer to the enemy, he's more likely to be in range of Kieran.

[Shadow Mir]

Mist-A-Mordecai-B-Stefan imo

if we're going to be using Stefan

The problem with that is the move disparity between Rhys and Kieran. Well, that and the fact that it deviates from what Kieran wants (he wants Oscar A/Marcia B) .

Or does he? Oscar C Marcia B Rhys B would make for some very nice offense.

Anyway, when Rhys is closer to the enemy, he's more likely to be in range of Kieran.

I don't really know why, but I'm not very open to this suggestion.