FE9 Tier List v2

[Progenitus]

Since when did this ONLY apply to Oscar? It applies for Boyd, it applies to Brom, it applies to Devdan, it applies to Haar...look, it applies to everybody in the game!

No, see, this is what everyone fails to realize.

Oscar is taking kills from chapters 1-9 (minus 3 and 4 of course). Kieran doesn't. Thus, in Oscar vs Kieran, it's relevant. Kieran does not have the disadvantage of taking kills from chapters 1-9, and Oscar does.. Consequently, Kieran also cannot help out from chapters 1-9, while Oscar does. you can't only apply the advantage and not apply the disadvantage that comes with it.

Beating X Characters and losing to X characters is a terrible way to measure utility, I mean, really. Let's pretend that the only units who exist for a certain timeframe are Titania, Jill, Oscar, and Rolf. Oscar loses to Titania and Jill and only beats Rolf. This would imply that Oscar is below average as he loses to two units and only beats one, but Oscar is anything but due to consistently 2RKOing and never dying, and yet this diagram would show Oscar is below average utility.

Well, of course positive/negative utility would depend on how many units you would need to use (or plan to use), and listing a number of characters who beat or lose to your unit is a simple way to measure utility (though yes, not entirely accurate). In your example, if you only need to use, say, two units, then yes, Oscar would be fairly neutral, if we assume Oscar loses to Titania and Jill.

However, since earlygame chapters tend to have not many enemies (or they're spread out), you don't need to use all of Titania/Ike/Boyd/Oscar/more to wipe them out. For example, if I already have Titania/Ike/Boyd to deal with chapter 1, throwing in Oscar doesn't really benefit my combat output (especially since there are so few enemies to being with), and in return I have another mouth to feed kills to. For example if I didn't feed kills to Oscar in chapter 1 and gave a little extra to Boyd, he now levels up earlier, procs a str and/or spd, and now starts doubling and 2HKOing a majority of the enemies in chapters 1 and 2. Is Oscar's performance in those two chapters worth feeding those kills to Oscar instead and losing that performance from Boyd?

Would Lowen be a better example?

It would depend on how Lowen fares compared to his teammates.

But wait, you disagree with this form of logic, and yet you're using it to argue Oscar down? Seems kind of contradictory if you ask me.

No, it's a little different. I'm saying Oscar is about average, *maybe* a little positive, and if he is positive it's still not enough to overcome Kieran's offense lead post-promotion (where Oscar's durability lead no longer matters because Kieran is more or less invincible too).

For FE10, someone like Zihark would still be positive utility in 1-6 since the only units he's seriously losing to are Tauroneo and Volug (although he ahs his own leads on Volug, such as 2-range), while someone like Aran or Nolan would be maybe neutral because they're losing/tying to more units (aforementioned Zihark, plus Sothe, and Jill is a bit comparable).

Oscar in earlygame FE9 is like Aran/Nolan in 1-6ish FE10. They're losing to about half the team, beating about half the team.

[Zkirsche]

Oscar is taking kills from chapters 1-9 (minus 3 and 4 of course). Kieran doesn't. Thus, in Oscar vs Kieran, it's relevant. Kieran does not have the disadvantage of taking kills from chapters 1-9, and Oscar does.. Consequently, Kieran also cannot help out from chapters 1-9, while Oscar does. you can't only apply the advantage and not apply the disadvantage that comes with it.

Killing > Not killing. This logic is like saying Rofl > Kieran for not killing things. Plus your logic pretty much screams "Lehran for best unit in RD!" which is obviously false.

To play chapters 1-9 more efficiently, it's easier to use Oscar than not using Oscar.

Also, a majoirty of the units which Oscar can struggle against, generals and laguz, can be killed with slayer weapons. Denying Oscar forges AND slayer weapons is nerfing his offence, which can be helped with an energy drop + band usage, Kieran can never take away Oscar's availability and support leads.

[Vykan12]

Killing > Not killing.

You're simplifying the issue here. We have to compare how quickly kills are being dealt both with and without Oscar in play. Even if Oscar does help kill enemies faster, he's also dilating the resources that other units get, CEXP being the main one of interest.

To play chapters 1-9 more efficiently, it's easier to use Oscar than not using Oscar.

On the other hand, Boyd/Ike/Titania might be collectively 6 levels higher, which offsets some of Oscar's utility.

Denying Oscar forges AND slayer weapons is nerfing his offence, which can be helped with an energy drop + band usage, Kieran can never take away Oscar's availability and support leads.

Forges are only in play a minority of the time (I estimated it to be 25-33% of the time in my Ulki vs Elincia post), and Kieran racks a positive by giving his forges to others while still having comparable atk to Oscar w/ forges.

[Zkirsche]

You're simplifying the issue here. We have to compare how quickly kills are being dealt both with and without Oscar in play. Even if Oscar does help kill enemies faster, he's also dilating the resources that other units get, CEXP being the main one of interest.

I suppose you missed this:

This logic is like saying Rofl > Kieran for not killing things. Plus your logic pretty much screams "Lehran for best unit in RD!" which is obviously false.

A unit's availability cannot be bad for them unless they're causing you to take more turns completing each chapter. Oscar certainly doesn't do that because of the lack of PC's, high mov + canto whcih helps him protect frail units like Rhys and Soren, horseback which lets him rescue things and being both decent in offence and defence.

On the other hand, Boyd/Ike/Titania might be collectively 6 levels higher, which offsets some of Oscar's utility.

Boyd/Ike/Oscar can be 10 levels higher collectively if we used Titania. In fact, let's only use Ike, as that's clearly the most efficient way to play the game amirite? No.

Again, this encourages arguments including Bastian > Titania, which is lolworthy on paper yet with this logic perfectly reasonable.

Forges are only in play a minority of the time (I estimated it to be 25-33% of the time in my Ulki vs Elincia post), and Kieran racks a positive by giving his forges to others while still having comparable atk to Oscar w/ forges.

Oh yes, there's no denying that, but not such a positive that completely erases Oscar's availability and support leads.

And, as i said, you can fix Oscar's problems, Kieran's weaknesses (Supports + Availability) cannot be fixed.

[Vykan12]

A unit's availability cannot be bad for them unless they're causing you to take more turns completing each chapter.

I never said Oscar wasn't helpful in earlygame. It's how helpful he is in that period that is in question.

And, as i said, you can fix Oscar's problems, Kieran's weaknesses (Supports + Availability) cannot be fixed.

And, as I said, Kieran can transfer his strengths onto other characters by passing up special weapons.

[Progenitus]

kirsche, stop it with the strawmen

I never said Oscar not killing things > Oscar killing things. I said that the advantage of Oscar helping out in earlygame chapters has to be compared to the disadvantage of Oscar depriving others of kills. Kieran has neither the advantage or disadvantage of this. Taking only the advantage and ignoring the disadvantage that comes with it is like me saying "well swords have WTA vs axes" and completely ignore that swords have WTD vs lances.

Say for example, that you're playing through a certain earlygame chapter, and Boyd/Ike have killed 3 enemies and Oscar has killed 2. Now there is just one enemy nearby, and it's weakened, and you have Boyd/Ike/Oscar all around to kill it. You decide to give it to Oscar because this would put his kills to 3, while Boyd and Ike already have 3 kills. But Oscar isn't necessarily helping you here by killing this enemy. Boyd or Ike could have just as easily taken that kill. In this case, if I weren't using oscar, I could have given that kill to Boyd or Ike and increase their level. Oscar taking this kill is bad for him.

The above is just one example where Oscar killing something isn't helping you beat the chapter, but is in fact stealing resources away from the team.

Now if Boyd and Ike were not around, or already had their turn, and only Oscar could kill the enemy, and if you didn't kill the enemy it would go and kill Rhys or something, then yes, he is helping, and I don't mind if he took that kill (though if Boyd and Ike were already positioned to protect Rhys, and the enemy would go and suicide onto boyd or Ike on the enemy phase, with or without Oscar, then Oscar killing it on enemy phase wouldn't help me that much, but this whole thing is situational. This is usually why I like to just compare unit X's performance relative to the rest of the team and see how he/she stacks and decide whether it's positive/neutral/negative utility, rather than trying to make up situations that may or may not occur often, etc.).

You seem to be under the impression that you don't care how good or bad someone is, as long as they're killing. Someone like Mia would have positive utility from chapters 7-9 until someone like Zihark joins halfway through chapter 11, but you're ignoring Mia is taking kills away from the rest of the team and her performance is not enough to make up for that, considering she's arguably your worst fighter until Rolf joins.

btw, what's this "support lead" you're talking about?

Oscar and Kieran are each other's best support, so w/e.

Also, Ike has several backup options (Titania/Soren, and if Oscar can wait around until Tanith shows up then he can do the same with Reyson). If Ike doesn't take Oscar he just takes someone else, so Oscar is only replacing an existing support. Kieran x Marcia gives out inferior bonuses, but it's not replacing anything, since Marcia's only other real option is Tanith (lolrolf, gatrie isn't generally played beyond earlygame chapters). Giving out a support that wouldn't even be there vs replacing an existing support with better bonuses

I'm not seeing any sort of gap.

[Zkirsche]

Also, Ike has several backup options (Titania/Soren, and if Oscar can wait around until Tanith shows up then he can do the same with Reyson). If Ike doesn't take Oscar he just takes someone else, so Oscar is only replacing an existing support. Kieran x Marcia gives out inferior bonuses, but it's not replacing anything, since Marcia's only other real option is Tanith (lolrolf, gatrie isn't generally played beyond earlygame chapters). Giving out a support that wouldn't even be there vs replacing an existing support with better bonuses

Titania/Reyson also have various options, which are also superier to the team and generally help them. Oscar helps out Kieran far more than what Kieran helps out Oscar anyways. Wind is nothing to shout home about so I'd say the latter in your ending statemet is the superier.

The above is just one example where Oscar killing something isn't helping you beat the chapter, but is in fact stealing resources away from the team.

Actually, they could approach more freely to the enemy frontlines, heal themselves, too. get closer to Rhys, shove/rescue etcetera.

Units shouldn't be penalised for having availabiltiy unless they do not help the completion of the level - regardless of whether they're as good as the team or not. If Unit A saves me x turns, it doesn't matter that he's theeh worst unit on your team as he's still helped complete the chapter. And if Unit B can't do that, that's a definite advantage for Unit A.

Oh, and Oscar does help the turn count, as explained here:

the lack of PC's, high mov + canto whcih helps him protect frail units like Rhys and Soren, horseback which lets him rescue things and being both decent in offence and defence.

[Progenitus]

Titania/Reyson also have various options, which are also superier to the team and generally help them. Oscar helps out Kieran far more than what Kieran helps out Oscar anyways. Wind is nothing to shout home about so I'd say the latter in your ending statemet is the superier.

Titania has Mist/Boyd/Rhys.

Mist is like the most popular unit in the game for supports, since she has like Jill/Mordy/Boyd, so this might not happen.

Boyd has Mist/Brom, though I suppose he might not get Mist support, but ppl can get two supports anyway.

Rhys has a 4 move gap between the two, and anyway, if Rhys x Titania is fine, then I don't see why Rhys x Kieran wouldn't be fine, which just makes things worse for Oscar because now Kieran gets another +att (I was assuming Kieran only had Marcia supported).

Titania *can* get full supports without Ike, but that'll likely require either edging out someone on Mist's list, or taking up Rhys, at which points Rhys x Kieran is free game and now Oscar loses offense by even more.

Reyson has, what, Tanith/Tormod?

Tanith, sure. But if Tanith does that, then she really won't need to take Oscar (Marcia is still available for her A).

Tormod x Reyson is a rather pointless support since Tormod's issue isn't really att, and Reyson gets absolutely nothing out of it.

Again, Reyson's only an option for Ike if we like waiting around for Tanith to show up so she can support Oscar.

In any case, how helpful is Oscar's supports anyway? It's not like Ike cares about durability once he promotes, and even without Oscar he can still get supports from other people. Tanith wouldn't mind durability, but since the support doesn't even start until everyone's promoted, this means Oscar is going without a support before then, which severely cuts into his assumed durability lead from chapters 11-17. Kieran's supports aren't much better, but the point is that this should be a very minor point at best.

Actually, they could approach more freely to the enemy frontlines, heal themselves, too. get closer to Rhys, shove/rescue etcetera.

Yes, all very specific situations/examples, which is what I just said I despise. Tier lists shouldn't be about extremely specific examples.

Units shouldn't be penalised for having availabiltiy unless they do not help the completion of the level - regardless of whether they're as good as the team or not. If Unit A saves me x turns, it doesn't matter that he's theeh worst unit on your team as he's still helped complete the chapter. And if Unit B can't do that, that's a definite advantage for Unit A.

...

you know what, just read my sig. I have something about positive/negative utility. Go read up on that.

And I'm still waiting for an adequate response to Kieran's offense lead post promotion where Oscar has absolutely no answer to.

[Vykan12]

Kirsche, you're not reading our posts properly.

Me: I never said Oscar wasn't helpful in earlygame.

Smash: I never said Oscar not killing things > Oscar killing things.

And then you pull out this:

Units shouldn't be penalised for having availabiltiy unless they do not help the completion of the level

[dondon151]

you know what, just read my sig. I have something about positive/negative utility. Go read up on that.

Go read your own sig, because I had something to say about positive/negative utility as well.

[Zkirsche]

It's not like Ike cares about durability once he promotes, and even without Oscar he can still get supports from other people. Tanith wouldn't mind durability, but since the support doesn't even start until everyone's promoted, this means Oscar is going without a support before then, which severely cuts into his assumed durability lead from chapters 11-17. Kieran's supports aren't much better, but the point is that this should be a very minor point at best.

No it doesn't, because Kieran isn't getting the Oscar support eitehr, meaning his durabiltiy is cut into just as much.

Oh an Btw, Boyd prefers Titania over brom because he finds hit > atk. Mist can then support Titania and Jill as Mordy's offence is generally unneded for her anyway. Titania can easily get 'A' Boyd, 'B' Mist. Whilst Boyd get's 'A' Titania, 'B' Brom and Mist can get 'A' Jill, 'B' Titania. Mordy can then get 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Stefan. Perfect setup alert.

Yes, all very specific situations/examples, which is what I just said I despise. Tier lists shouldn't be about extremely specific examples.

Why? Surely our viewpoint on a scenario should include everything, why would you purposely ignore something that affects the game? Willful ignorance is stupid.

you know what, just read my sig. I have something about positive/negative utility. Go read up on that.

No, I'm perfectly happy with my view, thank you very much. Instead of trying to force yoiur views on me, how about proving my view wrong first?

And I'm still waiting for an adequate response to Kieran's offense lead post promotion where Oscar has absolutely no answer to.

Availability, durability, supports etcetera. Those are generally teh reasons why Oscar > Kieran.

Edited August 15, 2009 by kirsche

[Reikken]

tl;dr @ the last several posts, so forgive me if this has already been said or if the issue has concluded.

Oscar vs Kieran?

It looks like we have... Kieran > Oscar in performance when both exist due to having noticeably better offense (3+ atk lead + better weapon selection before promotion---axe slayers >>> lance ones) while having enough defense that durability isn't an issue.

The other factors are... use of supports for others, and Oscar's earlygame.

Earlygame first. Oscar definitely has some positive use here since he's not taking any slots, but it's not very much. Indeed, he's worse than several other units (Titania, Gatrie, Shinon, Boyd), but even more importantly, a lot of his "use" just consists of gaining exp for himself and nothing else. There's no exp rank, so him killing something instead of Titania (or instead of no one, if it's not a rout chapter) is not helpful.

For supports, not only does Ike have a lot of other options for supporters, but also the benefit the support gives to Ike only really lasts until Ike promotes. After that, he has god mode defenses anyway.

+early defense for Ike

+defense for Tanith, possibly at the cost of offense

+defense for lulzJanaff

vs

+offense for Marcia, and +some defense

+ditto for Rhys, though a bit inactive

I'd give the edge to Oscar, but again, not much of one.

I think that Kieran's offense > Oscar's advantages.

[Reikken]

Oh an Btw, Boyd prefers Titania over brom because he finds hit > atk. Mist can then support Titania and Jill as Mordy's offence is generally unneded for her anyway. Titania can easily get 'A' Boyd, 'B' Mist. Whilst Boyd get's 'A' Titania, 'B' Brom and Mist can get 'A' Jill, 'B' Titania. Mordy can then get 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Stefan. Perfect setup alert.

2 problems with your "perfect setup":

1: assuming that the player doesn't give a damn about Mist's atk

2: assuming the use of Ilyana, who is mid tier at best

Also, IMPORTANT QUESTION:

This topic is way too long for me to find it, so... Why are Soren and Ilyana > Rhys?

[Florete]

Also, IMPORTANT QUESTION:

This topic is way too long for me to find it, so... Why are Soren and Ilyana > Rhys?

I don't actually agree with it, but apparently early sealing for staves makes them better than Rhys.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Also, IMPORTANT QUESTION:

This topic is way too long for me to find it, so... Why are Soren and Ilyana > Rhys?

I don't actually agree with it, but apparently early sealing for staves makes them better than Rhys.

And what exactly makes you doubt that they aren't? Ilyana may not be but Soren is.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Reikken]

Rhys is actually good before promotion, and, babying aside, he has a level lead.

So an early-promoted Soren, eh? How does that compare...

Also keep in mind that Rhys can also promote early but doesn't need to--he's already useful.

[grandjackal]

Rhys is actually good before promotion, and, babying aside, he has a level lead.

So an early-promoted Soren, eh? How does that compare...

Also keep in mind that Rhys can also promote early but doesn't need to--he's already useful.

Soren and maybe Illyana can become twice as useful as him after promotion, especially since Light magic doesn't appear for a while.

[Tino]

I don't quite recall the arguments as to why Soren/Ilyana can get a Master Seal without others being hurt from them taking a, in my view, valuable resource.

Someone care to fill me in?

[Reikken]

They're only making up for lost time at first, and light magic appears after only 3 chapters.

EDIT: Others are indeed hurt. Just generally not by as much as what they gain from it.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

I don't quite recall the arguments as to why Soren/Ilyana can get a Master Seal without others being hurt from them taking a, in my view, valuable resource.

Someone care to fill me in?

The stats they gain gives them offense, they get staffs to boost their utility, along with helping their EXP gain so they don't really suffer in the long term from it.

I'd wonder more on who the hell could use it better.

They're only making up for lost time at first, and light magic appears after only 3 chapters.

Light magic is also heavy. Unless it can be shown that their offense would not be better than his considering he's weighed down to horrid speed (which is already bad as is), I'd have a hard time believing Rhys putting it to better use.

[Tino]

I think there are plenty people who enjoy an early offence boost, and early defence boost, an early mobility boost, an early whatever...

[Reikken]

I'd wonder more on who the hell could use it better.

It's not about someone else using it better. It's just the fact that someone else could use it at all.

Like 5 (what Soren gets out of it) - 3 (what someone else gets out of it) = 2, not 5. We have to acknowledge that 3. Which is why I said "Also keep in mind that Rhys can also promote early but doesn't need to--he's already useful." Rhys may be better off not promoting early.

[grandjackal]

I think there are plenty people who enjoy an early offence boost, and early defence boost, an early mobility boost, an early whatever...

They'd also like to level faster and be healed by people with good magic offense by their side. With staffs, the higher level set up of sages at that point is somewhat mitigated by staffs.

I'd wonder more on who the hell could use it better.

It's not about someone else using it better. It's just the fact that someone else could use it at all.

Like 5 (what Soren gets out of it) - 3 (what someone else gets out of it) = 2, not 5. We have to acknowledge that 3. Which is why I said "Also keep in mind that Rhys can also promote early but doesn't need to--he's already useful." Rhys may be better off not promoting early.

Except someone else using it benefits only themselves. The mages promoted benefits themselves combat-wise, and the rest of the team through staff use.

As for Rhys being useful off the bat it's true, but once sealed, they're twice as useful as Rhys will ever be from that point forward.

[Reikken]

Except someone else using it benefits only themselves. The mages promoted benefits themselves combat-wise, and the rest of the team through staff use.

Huh? There's no splitting it into themselves vs rest of the team. Not only is that irrelevant, but what you said is also false. Healing someone helps by keeping them from dying, right? And standing there, physically blocking someone from an enemy does the same, as does killing the enemy, etc. Anyway, the most important thing is that it's irrelevant. I already acknowledged that they also gain the use of staves in saying that they gain more (5 is more than 3).

As for Rhys being useful off the bat it's true, but once sealed, they're twice as useful as Rhys will ever be from that point forward.

If they were able to attack and use a staff simultaneously, I would agree, but that's not the case. And even then, that only lasts until Rhys promotes himself. Edited August 15, 2009 by Reikken

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Early promoted comparisons of Rhys and Soren were already brought up in the previous thread. Soren has an AS lead that helps him outdamage Rhys and Soren's healing is quite sufficient as it is that Rhys' staff rank at the time is superfluous.

As for other staves:

http://serenesforest...ndpost&p=451065

Like with Mist, the time Rhys isn't promoted is time where Soren's doing combat as well as healing so he beats them both for a short while.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Sirius