FE9 Tier list v3

[Eltoshen]

Yet he's still stealing resources from your other characters regardless. I'd rather focus on making my whole team stronger, rather than waste that experience on raising a unit without an enemy phase. Is that really uncommon?

[grandjackal]

You could promote him at level 10 and have a superior Shinon ;;>> Thought I'd throw that out there.

@Eltoshen: Errrr, Rolf IS part of the team, genius ;;>>

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Eltoshen]

"Team" as in the characters you'll be using throughout the game. I wouldn't waste BEXP on characters that I'll only be using for around 1-2 chapters at most.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yet he's still stealing resources from your other characters regardless. I'd rather focus on making my whole team stronger, rather than waste that experience on raising a unit without an enemy phase. Is that really uncommon?

Don't you think the team is stronger when Rolf is useful than when Rolf isn't? The other guys may not even level with Rolf's share split in so many ways, and even if they did it's not likely to make more of a difference than an extra unit being able to do respectable damage.

I think the team is stronger with Rolf at a reasonable level. Somehow you think the team is stronger with Rolf at level 2.

"Team" as in the characters you'll be using throughout the game. I wouldn't waste BEXP on characters that I'll only be using for around 1-2 chapters at most.

Dude, the whole point of giving Rolf bexp is so that he can be part of the team throughout the game. That's also why he's being argued to be better than Lucia, since he'll have a rather good player phase by that point and she won't.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

"Team" as in the characters you'll be using throughout the game. I wouldn't waste BEXP on characters that I'll only be using for around 1-2 chapters at most.

Strawman assumption. Each player is different and will always construct a different team. It's all preference to the player in the first place, so assuming that we're using the "best" or "ideal" team isn't a very solid argument. In any case we're not saying that he'll skyrocket 3 tiers either as we all understand some of the penalties.

[Eltoshen]

I thought it was accepted in this community that he's better than Lucia because he puts the BEXP to better use when given it. Then again, BEXP can really change the outcome of a tier list.

For example, a BEXP-pumped Rolf is a lot more useful than Lucia but if we were to distribute it amongst characters you'd be using (assuming Ike, Kieran, Oscar, Boyd, Mist(?), Jill ), he won't be receiving it, making him less useful than Lucia.

Thus, it basically comes down to if the player prefers to give BEXP to a crappy character to make him decent or rather to improve the units he/she's using as a whole. As for me, I prefer to boost my team rather than try to train a character without an enemy phase. I've brought that up many times but it counts for a lot. Being an archer in this game sucks (not as much as some of the GBA games do, but still...).

And yes, when Rolf's at level 2, he's not deployed. He's not acting as negative utility. He doesn't draw all enemy attacks to him. My other character are able to kill more efficiently when they're able to take full advantage of their enemy phases. If we're advancing Rolf along with your other units, there's always going to be a time where the enemy decides to go after him instead of your units that would love to finish the enemy off on their enemy phase.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought it was accepted in this community that he's better than Lucia because he puts the BEXP to better use when given it. Then again, BEXP can really change the outcome of a tier list.

For example, a BEXP-pumped Rolf is a lot more useful than Lucia but if we were to distribute it amongst characters you'd be using (assuming Ike, Kieran, Oscar, Boyd, Mist(?), Jill ), he won't be receiving it, making him worse than Lucia.

Thus, it basically comes down to if the player prefers to give BEXP to a crappy character to make him decent or rather to improve the units he/she's using as a whole. As for me, I prefer to boost my team rather than try to train a character without an enemy phase. I've brought that up many times but it counts for a lot. Being an archer in this game sucks (not as much as some of the GBA games do, but still...).

And yes, when Rolf's at level 2, he's not deployed. He's not negative utility. He doesn't draw all enemy attacks to him. My other character are able to kill more efficiently when they're able to take full advantage of their enemy phases. If we're advancing Rolf along with your other units, there's always going to be a time where the enemy decides to go after him instead of your units that would love to finish the enemy off on their enemy phase.

Yippee, you just showed why in most playthroughs Rolf isn't deployed. Same can be said for a lot of other units. Let's stick them all in a massive tie at lower mid and just focus on the parts of the list from mid and above.

Or lets look at what is the best way to actually make use of him. Since he needs bexp to get to a respectable level, and it only costs the other units like 50 each or something small like that, there is a cost but not a huge cost. The main cost for using Rolf has and will always be the deployment slot. You do realize, and I said this last page, that if you replace Rolf with another unit, that unit takes bexp too, usually. So again, Rolf doesn't actually cost the team very much. When I did the calcs to give Rolf more than his fair share, it was like <40 each if we give Rolf extra.

Do you even get that if you don't use Rolf then another unit shows up and takes the bexp anyway? The other units lose nothing unless we give Rolf ~725 instead of ~500. If he just takes ~500, he's still level 7 or something and doing okay and the other units lost nothing.

You are basically saying that you'd rather have an empty slot than a level 7 Rolf, because that's the only way in which it makes sense to distribute Rolf's bexp among others.

So let me ask you:

Is a level 7 Rolf inferior to an empty slot + ~50 bexp to each active party member?

[Dat Nick]

Guys. Stop feeding the troll. Seriously. Everybody in this topic knows he's wrong except for him. You're wasting everybody's time here. Your time for arguing with him, his time for participating in the argument, and my time for ignoring my efforts to get this topic back on track. The world will be a better place if you just ignore him already.

now can we look at how soon Rolf stops being godawful shitty please and whether or not this outweighs Lucia's instant meh

Edited September 11, 2009 by Joker

[Narga_Rocks]

Guys. Stop feeding the troll. Seriously.

I suppose. So if we all collectively choose to ignore him and discuss Rolf's position without his input, do you think he'll stop posting or will we all have to constantly skip over his posts?

[Dat Nick]

Just skip over any posts he makes. He's just going to keep doing the same facepalm over and over again.

[Eltoshen]

Actually, if I were to use Rolf that way, I'd use him as bait to draw in the enemy. It wouldn't be too bad until long-range weapons come into play. Then again, you asked what I would do, not what Rolf-lovers would do.

So if you're asking if I would rather use Rolf as bait or not, it depends on the situation. Then again, the fact that he's an archer still bugs me.

However, since you guys can make use of his archer utility better than I can, go ahead and have fun debating his usefulness.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just skip over any posts he makes. He's just going to keep doing the same facepalm over and over again.

How about you and I compromise and I don't actually respond but just keep posting the Picard + Riker picture every time he posts?

[Dat Nick]

acceptable

But it looks like he's giving up anyway

NOW

Can we please look at exactly when Rolf starts contributing something notable to the team, and whether or not this outweighs Lucia being below average right out of the box?

[uzy5o]

And thus Boyd > Rolf. I don't see what Reikken was proving at all.

The point isn't Boyd > Rolf. The point is Boyd makes a better use of BEXP than Rolf does. These are two completely different points.

Boyd takes away BEXP from Jill, Astrid, Makalov and Mist

Ike takes away BEXP from Jill, Astrid, Makalov and Mist

Oscar takes away BEXP from Jill, Astrid, Makalov and Mist

Soren takes way BEXP from Jill, Astrid, Makalov and Mist

...you get the idea

But you AREN'T getting the idea. The point isn't Rolf takes away BEXP from other characters. The point is Rolf takes away BEXP from other characters who can use it better.

You do realize that while tiering Rolf he is basically force deployed. I don't think I need to explain to you how much worse the team will be with 6 units getting ~50 extra bexp and the 7th unit being level 2.

6 units getting 50 BEXP seems pretty insignificant. So instead of 6 units getting 50 BEXP, you can give Rolf three levels. He gains 1.2 str, so he does 1-2 more damage. But that's just as insignificant...

Also, you don't have to split BEXP evenly.

To be deployed, he takes spots away from other units that could have been deployed. Assuming that cost has already been accounted for, at this point he might as well receive bexp in the chapter 11 base because otherwise he's going to be a mega detriment.

Is that ~70 bexp each really going to make the team so much better that they can do without Rolf being able to actually do not-insignificant damage on player phases?

Basically, does 6 units with 70 extra bexp each do better than 6 units with their normal bexp + Rolf at a respectable level? If so, then fine, whatever.

Rolf is going to be a major detriment either way. He needs walling off no matter what, and even with a few extra levels, he is still really weak compared to the rest of the team. I would rather have a unit sitting there doing nothing and let the rest of my team fight better than trying to make Rolf do something at the cost of the rest of the team fighting worse.

A unit sitting there doing nothing is equivalent to an empty slot. We don't have to fill every deployment slot, though, and by not filling every deployment slot, we can concentrate resources (exp, BEXP, forges, etc.) onto fewer units, making them better than if we had more units.

IIRC, team sizes are generally accepted to be 8-10 people. Chapters tend to have 11-14 unit slots, so we're not filling up every unit slot anyways. I don't see why we have to make Rolf do something (which is equivalent to having to fill up every slot.)

EDIT:

Dude, the whole point of giving Rolf bexp is so that he can be part of the team throughout the game. That's also why he's being argued to be better than Lucia, since he'll have a rather good player phase by that point and she won't.

Rolf can be part of the team just by deploying a 1/0 Rolf to every map. That way, he doesn't acquire negative utility beyond taking up a unit slot, which actually isn't a big deal anyways since we're probably not using every unit slot anyways.

On the other hand, trying to invest resources into him will just end up being counterproductive. Most other units can use the same resource, and use it better because they will use it on the enemy phase as well.

Edited September 11, 2009 by uzy5o

[Florete]

Eltoshen, I have a serious question to ask you. Please don't be mad, I mean absolutely no offense when I ask: Do you know how a Fire Emblem tier list works?

[Narga_Rocks]

acceptable

But it looks like he's giving up anyway

NOW

Can we please look at exactly when Rolf starts contributing something notable to the team, and whether or not this outweighs Lucia being below average right out of the box?

Well, then we need to discuss what all he's doing in his chapters. Is he always weakening for others to ORKO without forges (which is a good thing, of course, since forges are limited) or is he doing that some of the time but killing things others left alive after enemy phase or what? Also, how many turns does he attack on? All of them in each chapter? Do we give him a forge? What chapter? Does Astrid keep the brave bow for when an axe doesn't cut it or does Rolf get it?

Can you suggest levels for him along the way so we can check how he's doing on enemies?

[Eltoshen]

Apparently I don't, since I'm not spewing out nonsense yet getting attacked for it. It still doesn't sound illogical in my mind. Yet, tier lists are set-up different everywhere you go, so it's not like there's an "exact" way to tier a group of characters. I guess I'm just not used to the SF method.

[grandjackal]

I'll save you the time, Narga. Level 11, sealing him gives us a superior Shinon that much early on.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

I'll save you the time, Narga. Level 10, sealing him gives us a superior Shinon that much early on.

I thought Shinon was only so "high" in the list because of his help before he leaves. I don't think being superior to Shinon is going to help him get above Ena or Nasir. I could be wrong, though.

[grandjackal]

I'll save you the time, Narga. Level 10, sealing him gives us a superior Shinon that much early on.

I thought Shinon was only so "high" in the list because of his help before he leaves. I don't think being superior to Shinon is going to help him get above Ena or Nasir. I could be wrong, though.

He'll be beating Mia in attack all the way until she's 20/1

[Colonel M]

In my opinion, and I don't think it sounds absurd:

Low:

...

Rolf

Nasir

Bottom:

Ena

...

In other words: Rolf > Nasir and Ena and Ena takes Rolf's old position.

[Dat Nick]

Can you suggest levels for him along the way so we can check how he's doing on enemies?

I'll try tomorrow. I'm tired atm.

[Eltoshen]

Ena and Nasir's usefulness is limited to...2 chapters? I actually don't get why they're that much higher than Rolf, to be honest. Anybody mind explaining to me?

EDIT: Realized they're only a tier above, but they're still far less useful than your other characters by that point. Mainly Ena, partially Nasir.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[grandjackal]

Maybe I'm loony, but I don't see why Rolf should stay below lower mid. I mean...The hawks? Siriusly? Rolf needs fixing, but once he does he's useful for a long while. Guys like the hawks just show up and are just meh in many ways. Basically 3 types of weaknesses, are stuck to melee, and they have to deal with transformation. Doesn't help they join a tad late, and immediately run into their weaknesses like ballistae ad Blizzard.

On top of this, they aren't even offensively stellar anwyays. Janaff's a tad too weak, and Ulki's too slow.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

Ena and Nasir's usefulness is limited to...2 chapters? I actually don't get why they're that much higher than Rolf, to be honest. Anybody mind explaining to me?

I don't get it either. Probably the negative utility argument causing people to assume Rolf builds up too much "suck" over the rest of the game that whatever good he may or may not do later on it doesn't account for his earlier status, and he's always locked to no 1 range. I wonder what we'd think if the bright bow existed in a normal game. It's only 25 uses and Rolf's magic is kind of bad, so nevermind.