FE9 Tier list v3

[Eltoshen]

I said "not much higher" not "not ANY higher". >_>

I mean, the whole comparison with Mia is "wtf?"

Edited September 13, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Colonel M]

Then again I never set the bar for much higher anyway. But case in point it seemed like you were setting a bar on him. And yeah, >Mia seems like a bad assumption.

Highest I see so far might be over Elincia, and that's about it. For now, anyway.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[Eltoshen]

I think Rolf can go as high as above Ulki, but Elincia's got A rank staves backing her up, so it'd be a little harder to argue Rolf > Elincia.

[Sol Hiryu]

I think that everyone agreed that Elincia > Rolf in the last topic, mainly because being a subpar healer with flight during the last part of the game is a bit better than having to train Rolf up to be good. Of course, that could very well change, but I'm not holding out hope that it will happen.

I can see him above Ulki, though. I just think the hawks in general have way too much going against them in every chapter, with their gauge and triple weakness. But I really think that depends on whatever Rolf's utility was pre-promotion and post-promotion is really better than what Ulki can do. As far as I know, just from a brief glance at the HM stats and Ulki's base stats, Ulki's utility would need to be far better than his combat, IMO.

[grandjackal]

Janaff base ATK-26

Level 15/1 Forged Steel-27

Janaff has being stuck with melee, triple weakness and only has offense half the time. Give him the demi band...

Demi Janaff-23 ATK

Rolf normal Steel-22

No damage effectiveness, no slayer weapons like Laguz bow, no forge availability, no brave weapon, no killer weapon, no killer bonus in general, no supports that would actually want him (at least Rolf has a chance).

[Eltoshen]

Janaff can fly and has great speed. I think his AS would be decently above level 11/whatever Rolf at the very least.

Plus, his Vigilance increases his avoid by 20. You also don't have to waste any resources on him, and he's useful from the moment you get him. Plus, he's more durable than Rolf. And we can't forget the fact that Rolf has used many of our resources to get to the place we're debating him at.

[Sol Hiryu]

Are you sure about that? Sure, Janaff does have really great AS and has flier utility, but it's also offset by the fact that his damage is pitiful, and he won't be able to one round most things for quite a while. He also has the problem of his gauge, which while not as problematic as the Cat gauge in Radiant Dawn, will effectively put him out of commission for the rest of the chapter past the fifth turn after he transforms, maybe sooner if he actually fights stuff.

Also, you're wrong about his avoid. Ulki is the one who has Vigilance; Janaff gets the fairly inferior Insight, which boosts his Hit.

For example, at his join time in Chapter 18, Janaff has 26 Atk and 20 AS. This allows him to double every single enemy in the chapter barring the Raven reinforcements. Despite this, he's only ORKOing the sages, and everything else is a 2RKO except for the Armored Knights, which he shouldn't be attacking anyway. Defensively, he's 3RKO'd at 14 Def and 56 Avo transformed by most enemies. For the most part, he'll be pulling off displayed hit rates within the high 30s/low 50s range, more or less with Biorhythm. This translates to about 29.26% ~ 52.47% real hit, within the range of most beorc enemies in that chapter. The higher end one is the Archer, which he wants to avoid badly.

Giving him the Demi Band will give him 23 Atk and 19 AS. While he's still doubling everything but the ravens, the loss of Mt turns some 2RKOs into 3RKOs, especially against the Fighter and the Warrior (which he wants to avoid), and does lol damage against any Armored Knights. His Avo will also decrease to 55, which boosts his chance of getting hit.

While it isn't too bad, you have to remember that Janaff is limited to five Player Phase attacks before he reverts, assuming he attacks each turn he's transformed...maybe even less if someone attacks him on enemy phase. It's also worse with the fact that his EXP gain is pitiful upon his join time, and it will be a few chapters before he can really begin to gain levels.

EDIT: I didn't include the fact that he can get Vigor'd by Reyson for an extra attack per phase, but that gets into the whole issue of Reyson not Vigoring someone more useful, so I'm not going to go into that.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Eltoshen]

About the Reyson vigor point: That applies to every character, so I don't get it. Unless you mean his turns end up more meaningful than if he were to only attack once? Since his gauge still decreases when he attacks an enemy.

And oops, I slipped up on the skill issue, it does make Ulki suck a bit less, though, not a lot.

What are you trying to debate with the 2RKO and 3RKO issue? I said he's useful from the start. I don't know how that translated into "he OHKOs enemies".

Rolf deals the same damage and he took resources to build up to his current level. Janaff didn't. I'm pretty sure that offsets the whole transformation gauge issue. Matter of fact, Janaff doesn't even need to equip the Demi Band until around the fifth turn or so, since he transforms right at the beginning of the battle.

[Sol Hiryu]

Janaff loses 1 gauge point every time he's in battle, whether he initiates it or not. He loses 3 per turn. If he's vigored and attacks again to finish an enemy he couldn't before, he gets another -1, which would bring his total decrement to -5 that turn. It doesn't seem like much, but it adds up very quickly--especially if there are ranged attackers by him. His gauge will end up depleting faster if he ends up having more than one enemy on enemy phase, ones that he either can't finish off or attack at all, depending on the situation.

I went into that because I wanted to try and clarify on how "useful" he is from the start. He's not absolutely stunning, but he can at least weaken things for others, like Ike or Tanith, to kill cleanly. Rolf can do the same while not facing a counter, which also helps because their first shared chapter together is filled with chokepoints that are easily filled. If you're going to say Janaff is useful, you need to give details. How useful is he in battle? Relative to the map and the army? Compared to Rolf?

I'm glad you brought that next point up, because I can say that the Demi Band is probably just as much a resource as Rolf getting BEXP and maybe a Seal. You have three (well, four, but I doubt Ulki wants to cut his speed stat even further) other laguz units at that point who really really want that band, as it assures them constant combat.

Also, assuming that we have a 15/1 Rolf, he can OHKO the Wyvern Riders with a forged steel without taking a counter. Against the enemies they both double, Rolf will do more damage due to having 27 Atk compared to Janaff's 26. Not much of a difference, but if Rolf used a Strength Band sometime during his leveling, it'll more than likely be more than that. Hell, Rolf still does more damage to the things that neither double (lol ravens), due to having higher Atk and an effective weapon. The things that Janaff double that Rolf can't are the Fighter that starts on the map, the Archer, the two Sword Knights by the boss, the two Lance Knights that show up on turn 7, and the Lance Knight and Paladin that come in on turn 8. The Paladin has an iron bow, however.

...

Okay, I think I'm rambling too much. It's late. I think I wanted to say a lot more but it just slipped my mind.

I guess I'll wait until more Rolf comparisons are done before I look into anything else.

[Eltoshen]

I don't get it. Why are you mentioning other laguz? I thought we were comparing the lower end, which is Rolf vs. Janaff. I could say that Astrid would love to use every weapon that Rolf is using, including his forge, but can I? Other characters would also love that strength band, but they can't because he has it equipped. You can say that you can trade it around, but that means some of my units will have to run away from enemies before they level up just to trade with Rolf.

Strength band adds up to a grand total of 5% per level. It won't be much more than maybe 1-2 points.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Sol Hiryu]

Meant to get to this earlier, but got busy.

I don't get it. Why are you mentioning other laguz? I thought we were comparing the lower end, which is Rolf vs. Janaff.

Er...because other units are also in play besides Rolf and Janaff? If any of the laguz units you've had up until Chapter 18 are being used, they really want that Demi Band too.

I could say that Astrid would love to use every weapon that Rolf is using, including his forge, but can I?

It's funny, because by this time in the game, Astrid is more than likely promoted and would rather work on her axe rank. Sure, she wants a bow for when she runs into wyverns/ravens, but she probably wants to use a hand axe post-haste. 1-2 range is the best, after all.

Other characters would also love that strength band, but they can't because he has it equipped. You can say that you can trade it around, but that means some of my units will have to run away from enemies before they level up just to trade with Rolf.

This is such a minor and insignificant point that I don't even know why you brought it up. But I'll answer it anyway.

By the time you first get Rolf, you have two strength bands--the Fighter Band and the Knight Band. Since we're BEXPing him anyway, why not slap one of the two onto him? This will more than likely give him an extra point of strength earlier on, something he needs badly. In fact, Jill brings you the Wyvern Band when she joins, which gives +5% Str and Def growths. By then, you'll have three strength bands, and it's very easy to keep at least one of them on Rolf.

If, for some reason, you don't want to do this, he can always take one of the two +Spd bands and ensure himself a better AS. Considering all the bands you have, I can't imagine it being hard to keep one of the ones Rolf wants on him.

As I said before, I'll wait until a better comparison is made before I start looking more into it. I hope that answers whatever questions you have...probably not, though.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[-Cynthia-]

I moved Rolf above Nasir for now, also I moved Lucia to the bottom of Low.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

By the time you first get Rolf, you have two strength bands--the Fighter Band and the Knight Band. Since we're BEXPing him anyway, why not slap one of the two onto him? This will more than likely give him an extra point of strength earlier on, something he needs badly. In fact, Jill brings you the Wyvern Band when she joins, which gives +5% Str and Def growths. By then, you'll have three strength bands, and it's very easy to keep at least one of them on Rolf.

If, for some reason, you don't want to do this, he can always take one of the two +Spd bands and ensure himself a better AS. Considering all the bands you have, I can't imagine it being hard to keep one of the ones Rolf wants on him.

As I said before, I'll wait until a better comparison is made before I start looking more into it. I hope that answers whatever questions you have...probably not, though.

FWIW, bands and the KW are shareable for BEXP use.

[Zkirsche]

As I said before, I'll wait until a better comparison is made before I start looking more into it. I hope that answers whatever questions you have...probably not, though.

Well, at Janaff's jointime, Rofl looks something like this:

Level 18/0 Rofl with a forged steel bow, 'A' Rhys: 28 HP, 27 Atk, 15 AS, 48 Avo, 11 Def, 6 Res

Base Janaff with/without the Demi band: 39 HP, 26/23 Atk, 20/19 AS, 56/54 Avo, 15/13 Def, 12/11 Res

I can't say Janaff wins this comparison. Worse durably and arguably worse offensively (Enemy phase + More AS + Better mobility vs slightly higher Atk), teh only things Rofl has in his favour are the facts that Janaff has a gauge and he gives out support bonuses, so it'd largely depend on how you weigh those two factors. He doesn't even win crit unless he has a crit forge.

Come later on, say, in chapter 26.

20/7 Rofl with a forged silver bow, 'A' Rhys: 36 HP, 37 Atk, 21 AS, 63 Avo, 16 Def, 10 Res, 25 CRit (not a critforge, though)

Level 13 Janaff with/without the Demi band: 46 HP, 29/26 Atk, 23/22 AS, 64/62 Avo, 17/15 Def, 13/12 Res, 12/11 Crit

Well, that Atk gap is pretty convincing, but so is Janaff's HP lead and possible enemy phase. Idk, it's all very subjective, if you can think that Janaff can get ~2 more rounds of combat than Rofl can each turn (on average), then I'd say Janaff wins, but if not, I'd give the win to Rofl.

As for Pre-Janaff, check out Rofl in chapter 16:

Level 13/0 Rofl with a forged steel bow, 'B' Rhys: 25 HP, 25 Atk, 12 AS, 38 Avo, 10 Def, 5 Res

Well, he isn't too bad, I suppose. I mean, he 2HKO's soldiers, myrmidons, mages and priests, 2RKO's the knights and 3HKO's the fighters/halbs/Sniper. Shame he doesn't double a lot, but if he gets a speedwing, which isn't really incredibly desired, he can be helped, and he might be a higher level anyway thanks to the bexp gained from chapter 15.

Overall, I don't think Rofl has enougth of an availability lead to quite pull himself above Janaff, perhaps Ulki, however.

[grandjackal]

Can definitely see him above Ulki in the very least, the damn failboat.

[Eltoshen]

Yeah, Ulki was a shame of a character. If only Vigilance increased his speed as well, he'd be about equal, if not better than Janaff.

And Rolf vs. Janaff...

One doesn't have enemy phase, the other loses turns when not equipping the demi band. It's pretty subjective, as pointed out.

[Sol Hiryu]

Well, at Janaff's jointime, Rofl looks something like this:

Level 18/0 Rofl with a forged steel bow, 'A' Rhys: 28 HP, 27 Atk, 15 AS, 48 Avo, 11 Def, 6 Res

Base Janaff with/without the Demi band: 39 HP, 26/23 Atk, 20/19 AS, 56/54 Avo, 15/13 Def, 12/11 Res

I can't say Janaff wins this comparison. Worse durably and arguably worse offensively (Enemy phase + More AS + Better mobility vs slightly higher Atk), teh only things Rofl has in his favour are the facts that Janaff has a gauge and he gives out support bonuses, so it'd largely depend on how you weigh those two factors. He doesn't even win crit unless he has a crit forge.

I don't know...Janaff's gauge really works against him, in my opinion. With the given Atk values, both are pretty much 2HKOing things for the most part. Janaff does have a great durability lead, but I am really iffy on the option of him tanking or something, due to the aforementioned gauge issue.

On that note, I need to ask something. Do enemies prioritize laguz units within range, or do they always ignore them unless they can hit them without a counter? It's slipping my mind at the moment. I think I recall someone saying something about them getting bypassed, but I can't remember. =/

Come later on, say, in chapter 26.

20/7 Rofl with a forged silver bow, 'A' Rhys: 36 HP, 37 Atk, 21 AS, 63 Avo, 16 Def, 10 Res, 25 CRit (not a critforge, though)

Level 13 Janaff with/without the Demi band: 46 HP, 29/26 Atk, 23/22 AS, 64/62 Avo, 17/15 Def, 13/12 Res, 12/11 Crit

Well, that Atk gap is pretty convincing, but so is Janaff's HP lead and possible enemy phase. Idk, it's all very subjective, if you can think that Janaff can get ~2 more rounds of combat than Rofl can each turn (on average), then I'd say Janaff wins, but if not, I'd give the win to Rofl.

Rolf pretty much wins all battle parameters here anyway. Just taking a few glances at the enemy stats for 26, Rolf can ORKO several enemies, barring a few snipers and paladins, and possibly a few laguz unless he has a laguz bow. Janaff, on the other hand, barely 2RKOs the warriors, and it goes into 3RKOs against most of the paladins. Forget about going against the generals or the tigers, as his damage is completely pitiful against those. I'd argue his enemy phase would be more detrimental than not attacking at all, honestly.

And this was with a non Demi Band Janaff, by the way.

As for Pre-Janaff, check out Rofl in chapter 16:

Level 13/0 Rofl with a forged steel bow, 'B' Rhys: 25 HP, 25 Atk, 12 AS, 38 Avo, 10 Def, 5 Res

Well, he isn't too bad, I suppose. I mean, he 2HKO's soldiers, myrmidons, mages and priests, 2RKO's the knights and 3HKO's the fighters/halbs/Sniper. Shame he doesn't double a lot, but if he gets a speedwing, which isn't really incredibly desired, he can be helped, and he might be a higher level anyway thanks to the bexp gained from chapter 15.

Overall, I don't think Rofl has enougth of an availability lead to quite pull himself above Janaff, perhaps Ulki, however.

I think the thing that's confusing me is the random levels we seem to be giving Rolf over the course of ~8 chapters. Not to mention the promotion times. I know in Chapter 12, he can easily gain one or two levels due to having (arguably) the best offense there, but after that is a bit hazy.

I always assumed that Speedwing was better off on Mordecai, honestly, and I'm not really inclined to give it to Rolf. Enemy phase still counts for something, even if I think it shouldn't be held against archers/snipers all the time.

...eh. *shrugs* Most of the maps from Chapter 11 and onwards to 17 are littered with chokepoints he can take advantage of. Chapter 15 is an exception, but not many really do good there and we're more than likely not trying to kill anything there, so whatever.

[-Cynthia-]

Unlike RD, laguz only receive a slight durability decrease untransformed, and gauge decrease per round of combat is fairly low. Janaff's gauge running out is a fairly minor concern in regards to how many enemies he can face.

[grandjackal]

Unlike RD, laguz only receive a slight durability decrease untransformed, and gauge decrease per round of combat is fairly low. Janaff's gauge running out is a fairly minor concern in regards to how many enemies he can face.

In RD, not only could they counter (as weakly as they did), they also got meter or extra exp from it. In here, they do not counter anything, gain 1 exp per attack, and gain negligeable meter.

The consequences are far greater for letting a laguz get attacked untransformed in this game than in RD.

[-Cynthia-]

In RD, not only could they counter (as weakly as they did), they also got meter or extra exp from it. In here, they do not counter anything, gain 1 exp per attack, and gain negligeable meter.

The consequences are far greater for letting a laguz get attacked untransformed in this game than in RD.

You're incorrect, as usual. It's far better not to counter than to die, which is pretty much what happened if untransformed laguz take attacks in RD(with a few exceptions). Not dying is better that having a laughable counter OR gaining meter. Gauge doesn't really limit a laguz's tanking ability in PoR.

Basically unstranformed Janaff has the same enemy phase as Rolf. His player phase is obviously worse, but considering Janaff can avoid tranform issues(via the Demi Band) and can have an enemy phase while transformed, it's hard to see Rolf>Janaff with Rolf's resource consumption beforehand factored in.

Edited September 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

That Demi Band can be seen as a resource that is near-equal, if not of more value than BEXP. Keep in mind -many-, if not all laguz member wants the thing.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Basically unstranformed Janaff has the same enemy phase as Rolf. His player phase is obviously worse, but considering Janaff can avoid tranform issues(via the Demi Band) and can have an enemy phase while transformed, it's hard to see Rolf>Janaff with Rolf's resource consumption beforehand factored in.

And Janaff totally doesn't need resources of his own, mirite?

Unbanded he still has that 2RKOing issue. He starts at a high base level and has crappy offense, so it's hard to see him gaining a whole lot of EXP very fast. His str growth isn't even that good, at least not good enough to balance his crap EXP gain: 55%. He needs two levels before he can have a solid offense, and that's assuming he's missing an ORKO on things on 2. If it's by any higher then he needs to be 12.

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Rofl > Ulki, Cynthia?

Janaff's gauge really works against him, in my opinion.

It all depends on how you value giving Janaff the Demi band after the first ~4 turns of combat (With Janaff facing 11 enemies in said 4 turns), really.

[Dat Nick]

Ulki needs even MORE resources than Janaff to not suck, so at worst I see Rolf>Ulki.

[Sol Hiryu]

Basically unstranformed Janaff has the same enemy phase as Rolf. His player phase is obviously worse, but considering Janaff can avoid transform issues(via the Demi Band) and can have an enemy phase while transformed, it's hard to see Rolf>Janaff with Rolf's resource consumption beforehand factored in.

But with the Demi Band, his offensive problems get worse. A lot worse.

Let's take a sample from a few chapters.

Chapter 19

Base Janaff (Demi Band): 39 HP, 23 Atk, 19 AS, 13 Def, 54 Avo

Enemies (excluding the Ravens):

1x Fighter lv 18 (steel axe, hand axe)

39 hp, 26 atk, 10 AS, 88 hit, 25 avo, 10 def, 4 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

1x Fighter lv 18 (short axe)

40 hp, 24 atk, 10 AS, 89 hit, 24 avo, 9 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 4 cev

1x Warrior lv 3 (killer axe [d])

43 hp, 28 atk, 11 AS, 89 hit, 26 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 35 crit, 4 cev

He very barely 2RKOs these. He has a 35 displayed hit on him, which changes depending on Biorhythm. 3RKOed by the warrior, although the Killer Axe is troublesome.

2x Wyvern Rider lv 16-18 (steel lance, javelin)

33 hp, 25 atk, 10 AS, 98 hit, 24 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

1x Wyvern Lord lv 1 (steel lance, short spear, vulnerary)

37 hp, 25 atk, 10 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 17 def, 5 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

3RKOs the Riders and 4RKOs the Wyvern Lord, which is pretty bad in itself, but he's now facing displayed hit rates of 43. 4RKOed by them, but he might want to avoid them.

1x Myrmidon lv 18 (steel sword)

28 hp, 20 atk, 17 AS, 108 hit, 39 avo, 7 def, 4 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

3x Myrmidon lv 18 (iron blade)

29 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 105 hit, 33 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 20 (armorslayer)

30 hp, 22 atk (30 eff), 14 AS, 118 hit, 34 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 8 crit, 6 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 20 (longsword [d])

28 hp, 20 atk (26 eff), 17 AS, 123 hit, 40 avo, 8 def, 5 res, 8 crit, 6 cev

He can't double the first Myrmidon if he has the Demi Band on, so that results in a 2RKO. He can one round the rest of them, but now he's facing 55 displayed hit, so his chances of getting hit are even more prominent.

Janaff might be able to take a few hits, but his offense is suffering badly. What's more, Chapter 19 is rife with ballista, so even his movement is limited until they're taken care of.

Assuming he got a level sometime in the chapter, he'll now look like this:

Janaff level 9 (Demi Band): 40 HP, 23 Atk, 20 AS, 56 Avo, same everything else

Not much of a change until he gets another level up. His strength may or may not grow during that level up, but assuming it didn't...

Chapter 20:

More enemy samples.

2x Soldier lv 19-20 (steel lance)

37 hp, 21 atk, 11 AS, 103 hit, 27 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

2x Halberdier lv 1 (steel lance)

35 hp, 21 atk, 10 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Halberdier lv 2 (steel lance, short spear)

34 hp, 22 atk, 11 AS, 99 hit, 25 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

2RKOing again while being 5RKOed back at ~47 displayed. Not bad, but he might miss an enemy phase due to the short spear.

3x Wyvern lv 15-17 (steel lance)

32 hp, 24 atk, 10 AS, 98 hit, 24 avo, 16 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

1x Wyvern lv 17 (knight killer)

34 hp, 21 atk (28 eff), 7 AS, 95 hit, 17 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

2x Wyvern lv 18 (steel lance)

35 hp, 26 atk, 10 AS, 100 hit, 24 avo, 17 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

1x Wyvern lv 18 (short spear)

33 hp, 24 atk, 10 AS, 98 hit, 24 avo, 18 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

2x Wyvern lv 19 (steel lance)

35 hp, 26 atk, 9 AS, 98 hit, 22 avo, 18 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

This is a nightmare for Janaff. He's 3RKOing all but a few, and the last three listed? 4RKO. He still gets 4RKOed back, which is good for tanking, but his damage is negligible. The worst part is that these enemies are the most prominent in this chapter.

1x Sword Knight lv 18 (laguzslayer)

33 hp, 22 atk (29 eff), 13 AS, 98 hit, 31 avo, 14 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

1x Sword Knight lv 19 (steel sword)

31 hp, 20 atk, 15 AS, 100 hit, 35 avo, 15 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

1x Paladin lv 2 (killer bow)

32 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 97 hit, 32 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 34 crit, 4 cev

2RKOs all of these, but I don't think Janaff wants to go up against them at all, with that laguzslayer and killer bow there. He'll be 3RKOed by the slayer, and more than likely 2RKOed if he gets hit with that bow (nevermind the crit proc, which might one-round him).

The point I'm trying to make is that while Janaff can have an existing enemy phase, it does not fix his offensive problems ever. He's having trouble killing anything starting from his join time, and it gets worse due to how slowly he levels. This might not be the case if he decides to go unbanded, but then you run into the problem of gauge AND trying to keep him away from ranged enemies to preserve his player phase.