FE9 Tier list v3

[grandjackal]

Actually, 15 AS is still sort of shaky. doesn't quite double everything. Some fighters, some cavaliers, Ravens could potentially double him. He definitely isn't getting the demi-band, he'd be utter garbage.

[Zkirsche]

Mia > Taur? I've had enought of collecting numbers after losing the data twice through silly accidents, but as a summary:

20/3 Mia vs base Taur should win as she has large offensive leads (~10 AS, 15 Crit) and whilst Taur's defensive leads are large (15 HP and 9 Def), his low mov means that he can't get much enemy phase and healers are in less demand but in high stock at this point o getting healed isn't too bad. I can't remember if enemies won't attack him because of his high def, but I think that's how it works. Basically, Taur doesn't really win.

Come lategame, dragons are now doubling him, which is pretty bad durably. As for a direct comparison with Mia, It's much the same as before, except Mia's ~76 Avo helps her a bit (20/13 Mia vs 20/20 Taur BTW).

And don't forget his absolutely dire mobility in chapter 25.

And all this is without assuming Vantage + Wrath pwnage. But done assuming overall neutral utility in chapters 7-21 and some str bands for Mia, oh and full KW for Taur, which might not happen.

Edited September 22, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Actually, 15 AS is still sort of shaky. doesn't quite double everything. Some fighters, some cavaliers, Ravens could potentially double him. He definitely isn't getting the demi-band, he'd be utter garbage.

...Ulki's not going to be base level by C25, you know. Smash was just making a point to capitalize on how Ulki has superior durability to Lucia.

And all this is without assuming Vantage + Wrath pwnage. But done assuming overall neutral utility in chapters 7-21 and some str bands for Mia, oh and full KW for Taur, which might not happen.

I don't really side either way on this, but I just want to say...

I don't even want to hear the "omg Wrath on Mia iz favoritism!!!oneone" argument, before anybody even tries to cop it.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Joker

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And all this is without assuming Vantage + Wrath pwnage. But done assuming overall neutral utility in chapters 7-21 and some str bands for Mia, oh and full KW for Taur, which might not happen.

Neutral utility isn't that hard to get.

Like I said before, with fair share of 411 BEXP and a level per chapter, Mia will be level 13 by Zihark's join time. Their strengths will be equal if a strength band is used during BEXP and Vantage + 1.6 def + 9.55 avo = defensive lead. All Mia needs to keep up with Zihark offensively is a strength band and supports can give her the win.

[Interceptor]

I don't even want to hear the "omg Wrath on Mia iz favoritism!!!oneone" argument, before anybody even tries to cop it.

People still try to argue Wrath out of her hands when she's deployed? Seriously?

[Dat Nick]

no

I just said that before anybody actually tried to argue it

[grandjackal]

Well this brings me to my next question: Who puts vantage to best use? Because you get Vantage before Wrath in chapter 14. Wrath comes in chapter 18. I wanna say Zihark for lolWrathxVantagexAdept, but not only is that cruel, but his supports and earth affinity assure him getting injured is probably not gonna happen. I am thinking someone who doesn't exactly have the avoid, but could utilize the crit boost, along with the durability to warrent such power often with high crit. Indeed, Wrath seems built for Mia.

But what of the mages? Thunder tomes, 1-2 range, have similar durability problems. They'd love vantage+wrath.

As a note, I am not saying Mia should get it. It practically is built for her. I'm just spitballing ideas to see who else could put it to good use.

[Florete]

Well this brings me to my next question: Who puts vantage to best use? Because you get Vantage before Wrath in chapter 14. Wrath comes in chapter 18. I wanna say Zihark for lolWrathxVantagexAdept, but not only is that cruel, but his supports and earth affinity assure him getting injured is probably not gonna happen.

I don't remember how much capacity units have in this game, but I'm pretty sure Zihark can't fit all of that anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well this brings me to my next question: Who puts vantage to best use? Because you get Vantage before Wrath in chapter 14. Wrath comes in chapter 18. I wanna say Zihark for lolWrathxVantagexAdept, but not only is that cruel, but his supports and earth affinity assure him getting injured is probably not gonna happen. I am thinking someone who doesn't exactly have the avoid, but could utilize the crit boost, along with the durability to warrent such power often with high crit. Indeed, Wrath seems built for Mia.

But what of the mages? Thunder tomes, 1-2 range, have similar durability problems. They'd love vantage+wrath.

As a note, I am not saying Mia should get it. It practically is built for her. I'm just spitballing ideas to see who else could put it to good use.

Or, ya know, you could have two units with wrath + vantage? Mia + Neph.

Or 1 unit with vantage + guard and 1 unit with vantage + wrath

Or 1 unit with vantage + adept and 1 unit with vantage + wrath

I'm not seeing how you can do that without involving Mia.

@Red Fox:

You are right. Z doesn't get adept for free here, so 10 + 10 + 10 > 25 and he can't do it.

But you could just eliminate adept once he can have wrath + vantage and keep him away from his supporter until he is in wrath range.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

I think the bigger issue against Ulki>Lucia is offense. SMs have about 17 AS, right? Ulki's not doubling them, the end. I suppose if he still doubles everything else though, his durability wins are probably enough of a win to compensate [plus move] so I guess it's still possible.

I'm not sure how much BEXP you've factored in for Ulki or whatever, but his doubling issues go beyond SMs, there are cavs, fighters,archers, halbs, any type of laguz etc. Ulki can only be expected to double generals/sages/bishops consistently.

I can see Mia>Taur, though remember Taur can fix his AS with Resolve.

Nephenee is a great candidate for Vantage, since she already has Wrath.

[grandjackal]

Oh wait *facepalm* dur, forgot Neph doesn't have WrathxResolve naturally. Lol, I'm mindless today.

[Ether]

I think the bigger issue against Ulki>Lucia is offense. SMs have about 17 AS, right? Ulki's not doubling them, the end. I suppose if he still doubles everything else though, his durability wins are probably enough of a win to compensate [plus move] so I guess it's still possible.

I'm not sure how much BEXP you've factored in for Ulki or whatever, but his doubling issues go beyond SMs, there are cavs, fighters,archers, halbs, any type of laguz etc. Ulki can only be expected to double generals/sages/bishops consistently.

I can see Mia>Taur, though remember Taur can fix his AS with Resolve.

Nephenee is a great candidate for Vantage, since she already has Wrath.

You mean sort of like how Mia can improve her durability with wrath? 80 percent chance of not even getting attacked is sick,not even counting in her avo,and Wrath!Mia with lolvague katti is 25 effective rounds of invincibility.(Guaranteed crit is awesome)

[grandjackal]

I think the bigger issue against Ulki>Lucia is offense. SMs have about 17 AS, right? Ulki's not doubling them, the end. I suppose if he still doubles everything else though, his durability wins are probably enough of a win to compensate [plus move] so I guess it's still possible.

I'm not sure how much BEXP you've factored in for Ulki or whatever, but his doubling issues go beyond SMs, there are cavs, fighters,archers, halbs, any type of laguz etc. Ulki can only be expected to double generals/sages/bishops consistently.

I can see Mia>Taur, though remember Taur can fix his AS with Resolve.

Nephenee is a great candidate for Vantage, since she already has Wrath.

You mean sort of like how Mia can improve her durability with wrath? 80 percent chance of not even getting attacked is sick,not even counting in her avo,and Wrath!Mia with lolvague katti is 25 effective rounds of invincibility.(Guaranteed crit is awesome)

There IS a somewhat nitpicky problem with that actually....

Ranged enemies. Wrath doesn't help her durability in any direct fashion. It's chapter 8, ballistae and sniper mages, plenty of ranged combat's starting to show up.

[-Cynthia-]

You mean sort of like how Mia can improve her durability with wrath? 80 percent chance of not even getting attacked is sick,not even counting in her avo,and Wrath!Mia with lolvague katti is 25 effective rounds of invincibility.(Guaranteed crit is awesome)

The thing is that Mia needs Wrath and other things like special weapons, Taur has innate Resolve.

[Narga_Rocks]

You mean sort of like how Mia can improve her durability with wrath? 80 percent chance of not even getting attacked is sick,not even counting in her avo,and Wrath!Mia with lolvague katti is 25 effective rounds of invincibility.(Guaranteed crit is awesome)

Yeah, except people are going to say "you can't assume she has vague katti for all 25 uses, others can use it too". Except having a 35% crit boost to a small existing crit and having a large chance of wasting the thing because they have a large chance of taking two uses (and not even KOing thanks to only 12 mt and probably 3HKOing) is not helpful. Giving guaranteed (if only 1 range enemies are nearby) invincibility and KOing with 1 hit on more enemies than even a killing edge would do (9 more mt on the crit and sometimes killing edge 4HKOs rather than 3HKOs) to me seems like a smarter usage of resources. Not to mention those others are probably rather durable by chapter 18 and can probably ORKO without relying on crit and don't much care if they get countered.

[Ether]

You mean sort of like how Mia can improve her durability with wrath? 80 percent chance of not even getting attacked is sick,not even counting in her avo,and Wrath!Mia with lolvague katti is 25 effective rounds of invincibility.(Guaranteed crit is awesome)

The thing is that Mia needs Wrath and other things like special weapons, Taur has innate Resolve.

Are you seriously saying Mia can`t have Wrath.And I only mentioned Vague Katti for the lol factor.At 25 with a 9 crit forge she has 84 Crit,and enemies Cev is really low.She still blicks most things,and it is a very big indirect boost to her durability.As for Tauro's resolve,his massive Def comes back to bite him in the ass.By the time he's in resolve range,there may not be all that much left to kill.

[-Cynthia-]

Are you seriously saying Mia can`t have Wrath.And I only mentioned Vague Katti for the lol factor.At 25 with a 9 crit forge she has 84 Crit,and enemies Cev is really low.She still blicks most things,and it is a very big indirect boost to her durability.As for Tauro's resolve,his massive Def comes back to bite him in the ass.By the time he's in resolve range,there may not be all that much left to kill.

I'm saying that the opportunity cost is higher than Taur's Resolve, considering we can't give Resolve to anyone else.

Edited September 22, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

Are you seriously saying Mia can`t have Wrath.And I only mentioned Vague Katti for the lol factor.At 25 with a 9 crit forge she has 84 Crit,and enemies Cev is really low.She still blicks most things,and it is a very big indirect boost to her durability.As for Tauro's resolve,his massive Def comes back to bite him in the ass.By the time he's in resolve range,there may not be all that much left to kill.

Not to mention his not doubling offence while he's getting hit down to resolve range is likely inferior to her not critting offence as she tries to get down to wrath range. And she still has swordmaster crit while trying. And with his 40 avo at base he could be facing ~60% listed while trying to get down to resolve range. Every time he gets attacked and the enemy misses is a waste. And 22 def and 14 res mean it will take a while. Even 13 speed means most things aren't doubling him. Also, base Taur in chapter 26 takes 4 damage from the 24mt snipers that double Taur with 13 or 14 speed. 12 max on a double crit. Warriors are doing no more than 10 and have 58 listed his at most on base Taur.

I'm thinking to cause >= 24 damage to Taur is going to take a while and have him counter at least 5 enemies without doubling while he's trying.

[Ether]

Are you seriously saying Mia can`t have Wrath.And I only mentioned Vague Katti for the lol factor.At 25 with a 9 crit forge she has 84 Crit,and enemies Cev is really low.She still blicks most things,and it is a very big indirect boost to her durability.As for Tauro's resolve,his massive Def comes back to bite him in the ass.By the time he's in resolve range,there may not be all that much left to kill.

I'm saying that the opportunity cost is higher than Taur's Resolve, considering we can't give Resolve to anyone else.

It's existant,I suppose,but it's pretty negligable,if not completely.Wrath is a bad idea on anyone without vantage,because they only open themselves for more attacks when they are at low health,or have so much durability that for most of the map they don't use it.

So who has vantage?Mia and 1 other potential person.I would say most of the time Vantage go's to Neph,with her innate wrath.Which means that Mia is the most viable candidate by a long shot.

If Mia is doritos(which she is),then any other character is like your stepdad's fruitcake.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Resolve on taur is ... barely even noticeable. Even on hard mode it takes a while for him to get under half health. 48 hp /22 defense/14 res and low move just kinda add up and say your not gonna have resolve activated until at least halfway through the battle. There is an extreme lack of armor slaying weapons in this game as well as a lack of mage enemies. If anything... Tauroneo is so durable it actually hurts his performance...

Edit: Well doesn't hurt but hampers what could have been an awesome enemy phase.

Didn't see narga's post above....

Edited September 22, 2009 by Lancelot

[Ether]

The best part about all of this is,if Mia holds Vague Katti in a crowd of Ranged enemies,she manages to keep 3HKO`s in Wrath range by the non-mages,and most things only have disp hit in the 30`s to 40`s.She can literally go insane once wrath is activated for a couple of turns and not require healing,that`s how broken Vague katti!Mia is.No one uses it even remotely close to this.

Even 2HKO`s from some things with normal weapons aren`t too bad considering her chance of not even getting hit.

EDIT:I'm having a deja-vu here.A unit with great availability that starts off a little shaky,and then becomes a killing machine without fear of death for a massive timeframe with resources that no one else is even comparable with...it's the RD tier list all over again.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Ether

[-Cynthia-]

The best part about all of this is,if Mia holds Vague Katti in a crowd of Ranged enemies,she manages to keep 3HKO`s in Wrath range by the non-mages,and most things only have disp hit in the 30`s to 40`s.She can literally go insane once wrath is activated for a couple of turns and not require healing,that`s how broken Vague katti!Mia is.No one uses it even remotely close to this.

Even 2HKO`s from some things with normal weapons aren`t too bad considering her chance of not even getting hit.

EDIT:I'm having a deja-vu here.A unit with great availability that starts off a little shaky,and then becomes a killing machine without fear of death for a massive timeframe with resources that no one else is even comparable with...it's the RD tier list all over again.

Mia's durability is comparatively worse than in RD, since she can't get an Earth support. Plus doubling is a lot less special in PoR, lots of characters can do it, with more damage, more Mov and/or and at 1-2 range.

That being said I'll do Mia>Taur, mainly because no one seems to want to argue for Taur.

Edited September 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

EDIT:I'm having a deja-vu here.A unit with great availability that starts off a little shaky,and then becomes a killing machine without fear of death for a massive timeframe with resources that no one else is even comparable with...it's the RD tier list all over again.

Those two situations are not comparable at all. I wouldn't even consider PoR Mia to be on the same planet as RD Mia. Maybe if the VK/Wrath came a bit earlier and Mia's start wasn't so godawful, but they don't and it is.

I am a bit surprised, though, to be seeing arguments here that I thought were dead back in 2007. What's old is new again!

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Does anyone have anything against Level 13 Mia by Zihark's join?

[Sol Hiryu]

Mia by level 13 is a bit ludicrous, especially considering she more than likely won't be able to get a level in two of the chapters mentioned(her join chapter and Chapter 10, considering we go stealth). Assuming we give her 411 BEXP in Chapter 8, she'll gain two or three levels, depending on how much you had her fight in the previous chapter. This would put her around level 8 or 9 going into that chapter.

Considering it's mostly a defense chapter by that time, you probably don't want her on the frontlines due to her bad durability and not so reliable avoid, so she'll more than likely gain less than a level. She'll probably gain another level (or two) in the next chapter, and then we'll skip chapter 10 due to not many participating in it.

So she'd be around Level 11, give or take a level.

Since she's in play, she's definitely the best choice for Wrath considering she could use Wrath + Vantage. However, Wrath does not come until Chapter 18, where she should be promoting or be close to it by that time. Before that, we've had to deal with her awful durability amidst some very lance and sword heavy chapters. You -can- mitigate this if you treat her like Rolf and infuse her with more BEXP than what's fair, but that's beside the point.

Yes, she's very good once she gets her hand on Wrath, and ignoring the opportunity costs of giving it to her, it does help her immensely once she's under half HP. Until her promotion and Chapter 19, when she can first make use of it, her performance is very lackluster.

Tauroneo has Resolve, but actually making use of it is more trouble than it looks like, no thanks to his rather high defense. He is very powerful when its activated, but his move issues hamper that and make it very unlikely he'll see enough action to get it to that point.

I'd pull up numbers, but...I'm too lazy right now. Maybe later.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Sol Hiryu