FE9 Tier list v3

[Progenitus]

@ smash: yeah, but as you can clearly see, Janaff/Ulki are not exactly low maintenance. They need some form of favoritism/resources if they're ever going to stop sucking.

How much favoritism do they need? If Rolf is getting kills fed to him + BEXP....

well, let's say Rolf somehow is 20/2 by chapter 18... so we get whole numbers to look at.

33 HP, 16 str, 6 mag, 19 skl, 18 spd, 12 lck, 14 def, 9 res

Janaff's bases assuming demi band

39 HP, 16 str, 5 mag, 18 skl, 19 spd, 16 lck, 13 def, 11 res

This is pretty poor. He barely even wins att (steel bow is 9 mt, hawk talon is 7). If Janaff goes for full bonuses, he covers the att gap. Rolf wins if he pulls out stuff like killer bow, but what are the chances that they have a significant amount of uses left? He was probably burning through them in 1st tier so his offense was just poor rather than terrible.

And again, this is assuming Rolf is somehow promoted by chapter 18. Considering even people like Neph are probably just promoted and that's with some BEXP invested in her, that's not happening. Subtracting the promo bonuses alone makes Rolf the clear loser (-3 str, -2 spd/def, yikes). Or, throw favoritism on Janaff instead. Give him an energy drop, and now he matches att even with the demi band. And I find one energy drop to be less favoritism than Rolf's BEXP + kills fed.

I personally don't see Rolf tying it up until he promotes, and then doesn't really win until silver weapons are buyable. Which would make Rolf lose from chapters 18 to... 20 I guess. About tied for 21-23 (silver bow isn't buyable until ch 24). And win from 24-endgame. but Rolf has suck from chapters 9-17.

Anyway, I'll try a little more formal comparison.

So, is the gap between Rolf and Janaff from 24-endgame greater or smaller than the gap between Rolf and a unit he'd be displacing (as he needs to be on the team to get kills and stuff)? Well, it doesn't even need to be greater, since his suck before Janaff joins is longer than when Rolf is beating Janaff (assuming that, Rolf isn't winning until silver weapons are buyable).

Assuming Rolf is displacing a mid tier, since Rolf is going to be taking up the slot of the otherwise worst unit you'd use on the team, and I generally draw the line around mid tier (or upper mid if the tier list has no mid tier)....

Here's base Ilyana vs base Rolf. Even though Ilyana could be level 7 at chapter 9, but w/e.

Rolf

18 HP, 5 str, 8 skl, 6 spd, 4 lck, 6 def, 2 res

Ilyana

20 HP, 1 str, 8 mag, 10 skl, 9 spd, 6 lck, 3 def, 10 res

How much is Ilyana winning? Well, if she uses wind, and Rolf has rolf's bow, it's 13 att/6 spd vs 10 att hitting res/9 spd. Or if she uses thunder it's 12 att hitting res/7 spd. Elthunder would be 16 att/4 spd. Assuming an average def/res gap of 4 (archers/fighters/myrms/soldiers have about 3-5. Cavs is a bit more, knights is a lot more, wyverns have more but bow weakness, and mages are in the other direction, lolpriests), it's either 1 att/3 spd for Ilyana, or 3 att/1 spd for Ilyana, or 6 att/-2 spd for Ilyana.

On defense, they're about teh same (I highly doubt either will survive 2 hits), except Ilyana wins massively vs mages. And shade helps. Actually, fast enemies like myrms might double Rolf, which would suck for him. I don't know their att/spd offhand though.

For future comparisons, the only thing that'll really change is spd (Rolf has 50% spd growth to Ilyana's 30%), although Rolf probably won't even match her until chapter 16 or so (level 13 rolf has 12 spd. Level 16 Ilyana has 12 spd). Rolf gains levels faster, but Ilyana has 10 more pow growth, plus her str growth means she'll use heavier tomes without AS loss. Rolf has more durability, but I doubt he wants to take hits anyway, and Ilyana still has shade. So basically, the att gap will remain, while the spd gap will eventually shrink, though by the time the spd does shrink, it's almost when Janaff joins in ch 18 anyway.

So basically, if Rolf displaces Ilyana, I'm losing 1 att/3 spd or 3 att/1 spd or 6 att/-2 spd. The spd lead shrinks, but the att remains the same, perhaps even grows. ROlf also gains durability but since he has no 1-range he's not going to flex it much anyway.

Now how much is Rolf losing by when Janaff first joins? Let's say he's... 18/0 or soemthing.

18/0 Rolf

28.2 HP, 11.8 str, 3.4 mag, 15.65 skl, 14.5 spd, 10.8 lck, 11.1 def, 6.25 res

base Janaff (no bonuses)

39 HP, 13 str, 5 mag, 15 skl, 17 spd, 16 lck, 11 def, 10 res

Offense, steel bow rolf has like, 21 att/14-15 spd, and Janaff with demi band has 23 att/19 spd. So Janaff is certainly winning offense.

Defense, double digit lead in HP/avo, and more def/res. So Janaff still wins.

And neither are assuming full bonuses, which would already give Janaff 3 more att.

Subjective factors, not needing demi band (or being able to fight for all player phases) + no player phase counters vs flying + 1-range. Which is better? Well, Rolf's subjective factors have to be >>> Janaff's for Rolf to even tie it up, as Janaff has clear wins in offense and defense. I personally would have the subjective factors about cancel each other out. Janaff makes Mordy/Muarim worse (Lethe is pretty crappy by now, and Rnaulf is pretty crappy in general), but flying has its own uses, like crossing those... sewers in ch 21, or potholes in ch 23, etc. And Janaff has 1-range, but as said earlier, it's pretty crappy in general, so he won't flex it very often as he'd be generally displacing other superior units countering. On the other hand, Rolf's 2-range means he takes fewer counters, but Janaff already wins durability anyway, so w/e. So I say, make things easier and cancel the subjective factors out.

Note that when Rolf promotes, as said earlier, +3 str, 2 spd/def. That more or less covers Janaff's str/def leads, and makes the spd lead more superfluous. So that's why I'd be inclined to call them tied until silver weapons are buyable.

Now let's skip to ch 24 when Rolf is winning over Janaff.

If we assume Rolf promotes in, like, ch 21 or something... maybe 20/5 for ch 24? And Janaff is 20/8 for ch 18, so maybe 20/12 for ch 24?

20/5 Rolf

34.8 HP, 17.2 str, 6.6 mag, 20.35 skl, 19.5 spd, 13.2 lck, 14.9 def, 9.75 res

20/12 Janaff (no bonuses)

43 HP, 15.2 str, 5.4 mag, 17.8 skl, 19.6 spd, 17.6 lck, 12.2 def, 11 res

well, if Janaff uses a demi band, then Rolf would be winning att by 5 (Janaff has 18 str + 7 talon, Rolf has 17 str + 13 silver). He loses spd though, but 19-20 looks decent enough anyway. He might have to watch for spd screwage though, as fast enemies might give him problems (cavs/paladins should be around 15 IIRC. Cats are like... 16-17?). Janaff should double everything except SMs with no problem.

So Rolf wins by 5 att/-2 spd. That's actually about the same as Ilyana with elthunder vs Rolf in ch 9, although ILyana could switch her weapon to best fit the situation (e.g. elthunder on knights or enemies that she can't double and won't double her, wind for fast enemies she can double, etc.).

Durability, Janaff's 8 HP/avo. It shrank from ch 18, but it's still there.

Future comparisons won't change much. Rolf gains levels faster, but Janaff's growths are superior. Rolf needs ~3 levels to match Janaff's str gain in 2 levels. I guess Rolf will make gains on the other stats, but... meh, Janaff will win spd anyway, and durability will be tied, maybe.

So unless Rolf's subjective factors > Janaff's, I'm only seeing Rolf beating Janaff post-silver weapons by about the same amount he was losing to mid tier Ilyana in ch 9. And Rolf's win over Janaff is 6 chapters, while Rolf losing to Ilyana was ~10 (not counting ch 10 or 15, but counting 17 as 4 parts). And this is not including Janaff's several chapters of beating Rolf, before Rolf even promotes.

And, this is assuming we're drawing the line at mid tier, the units who are generally making the team. I doubt anyone will throw lower mid tiers onto the team on a regular basis, but I think some may draw the line at upper mid, which makes it worse for Rolf. If Rolf displaces an upper mid tier, now he'd be losing chapters 9-17 by even more. If it's, say, Zihark, now it's even more offense and durability.

I guess there are other forms of favoritism for Rolf, like giving him a forge, but we could do the same for Janaff. Give him an energy drop or something, or do let him stick close to other demi band users so he can go for full bonuses for the first few turns of the chapter, and then demi band the rest.

I'm not seeing Rolf winning.

[Colonel M]

C18 also contains the Brave Bow, which would totally shut down the Atk gain that Janaff would have with full bonuses. There's also forging, which I wouldn't really say is a major favoritism ordeal, unless we want to bite back on Mist's case. Lesse...

- Killer Bow in C13

- Laguz Bow in C14, another in C19

- C22 has a Killer and Silver Bow

- C23 has another Killer Bow

- C26 has another Laguz Bow

- C27 has lolDoubleBow

Either way there's forges, and I think it's more than fair to let Rolf have one.

[Dat Nick]

meh. If Janaff is that comparable to Rolf when both exist, I'm willing to accept Janaff>Rolf>Ulki

[-Cynthia-]

ETA: When did Lucia move up? I don't recall any arguments about that. o.o

Someone mentioned Lucia moving up and there was no opposition, she didn't leapfrog any characters anyway. The big difference between Lucia and Bastian is that Lucia doubles everything, Bastian has issues doubling...lots of things. As of right now, Lucia is probably the best offensive unit in Low and her durability isn't uber terrible(fixable with a support sort of managable without). I'm not really seeing what sets her a tier apart from people like Ulki/Janaff that she beats pretty handily offensively.

I'm inclined to agree with smash on this whole Rolf/Janaff issue, it's not like Rolf crushes Janaff offensively and Rolf really has a lot of issues before Janaff shows up.

Edited September 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Soren9934]

if you give rolf a forge he is going to be a bit better then janaff...

forged steel to 13

at the very least his chip damage is going to be very good, and money isn't generaly that big of an issue in PoR so honestly rolf>janaff

that and janaff with demi band is somewhat weak and not getting 1rko

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, I have a question about Rolf from chapters 11 to ~18

Many of your units need a forge to ORKO something. Forging is limited. Vykan (or someone) once showed that based on the number of enemies, etc etc, your units can't always use their forge (especially if you plan on forging lower use items like javelins and hand axes along the way). Therefore your units frequently come up short on the ORKO. So Rolf shows up, takes no counters, weakens things for your units to save forge usage, how is that not helpful? Also, when it's a unit that has 1-2 range anyway, or locked to 2 range, one of your units can waltz in, attack, and Rolf gets the kill. So some turns he weakens for others, some turns he kills, as such his levels don't fall behind (any more than they already are) and he's being helpful. I don't see any huge negative from deploying and using Rolf from chapter 9 to 18. Sure, he's not as good as some of your other units, but it's not like he's hurting you or anything. In fact, he's doing a service for other units.

[grandjackal]

ITT, we start to learn of the wonders and joys of archers.

Speaking of forges though, with archers...Wouldn't they of all people be able to make a forge last the longest? As you said, some can't overexpose themselves, or waste their forges when something weaker could have been used for the same deal. However, due to the nature of the class, archers can be as picky with their weapons as they want, as they will not take counters. This also means that their weapons wear down the slowest. This includes forges.

Question is, how long can he make 1 forge last?

[-Cynthia-]

Actually, I have a question about Rolf from chapters 11 to ~18

Many of your units need a forge to ORKO something. Forging is limited. Vykan (or someone) once showed that based on the number of enemies, etc etc, your units can't always use their forge (especially if you plan on forging lower use items like javelins and hand axes along the way). Therefore your units frequently come up short on the ORKO. So Rolf shows up, takes no counters, weakens things for your units to save forge usage, how is that not helpful? Also, when it's a unit that has 1-2 range anyway, or locked to 2 range, one of your units can waltz in, attack, and Rolf gets the kill. So some turns he weakens for others, some turns he kills, as such his levels don't fall behind (any more than they already are) and he's being helpful. I don't see any huge negative from deploying and using Rolf from chapter 9 to 18. Sure, he's not as good as some of your other units, but it's not like he's hurting you or anything. In fact, he's doing a service for other units.

The problem is on more open maps we're going to have to limit other units' movement so that Rolf is not exposed on the enemy phase because he won't counter and will probably die(he's 2RKOd a lot of the time, sometimes 3RKOd), not to mention he's prioritized by any non-archers. His meager damage output doesn't really offset this cost until post promotion.

[grandjackal]

You realize in practice that's not true, right? You don't have to protect all fours, just make sure none can reach him. Considering everyone else aside from Shinon is capable of melee, this isn't hard. Like, at all. It's to the point that it shouldn't be an issue.

Mediocre damage output is a fair point though. A good archer should have good offense.

[Sol Hiryu]

The problem is on more open maps we're going to have to limit other units' movement so that Rolf is not exposed on the enemy phase because he won't counter and will probably die(he's 2RKOd a lot of the time, sometimes 3RKOd), not to mention he's prioritized by any non-archers. His meager damage output doesn't really offset this cost until post promotion.

The only 'more open' maps are the desert chapter and parts of Chapter 17 in this comparison. Again, every chapter before those has a lot of chokepoints that he can take advantage of. I can see your point on some open areas of maps, like 16, but true open maps are few and far between once he actually joins.

EDIT: That said, I can probably accept Janaff > Rolf > Ulki, due to Rolf's offense needing a good amount of time to really get going compared to whatever utility Janaff can get by being able to fly over obstacles and ferry people.

This does bring up the other two characters between them, though. Shinon has great early-game utility, but will need some levels to catch back up to everyone else when he returns. A brief comparison if we're going by join time:

??/2 Shinon (Forged Steel): 33 HP, 24 Atk, 14 AS, 9 Def, 37 Avo, 23 Crt

(Silver Bow): 23 Atk

(Killer Bow): 19 Atk, 53 Crt

(Brave Bow): 20 Atk, 12 AS

20/1 Rolf (Silver Bow): 32 HP, 29 Atk, 17 AS, 14 Def, 46 Avo, 24 Crt

(Killer Bow): 25 Atk, 54 Crt

(Brave Bow): 26 Atk

This assumes Shinon got a level before he left, and Rolf managed to promote sometime during or after 18.

Looking at that, it seems pretty bad. Even if you don't factor in supports/growth bands, Shinon has some bad stats upon his return time. Furthermore, Rolf also has the option to further increase his Crit if he's adjacent to either Boyd or Oscar during a turn, which is admittedly not always possible, but it's there and can and will be used at points.

However, Shinon's early game utility is not to be ignored, and Rolf's early game troubles shouldn't be either. Let's say we give Shinon three levels of BEXP before we send him into chapter 19. He'll end up looking like this:

??/5 Shinon (Forged Steel): 35 HP, 26 Atk, 16 AS, 11 Def, 42 Avo, 24 crt.

Once again, this doesn't count the fact that he can use a growth band to raise his already huge growths.

With three BEXPed levels, he's now roughly on par with Rolf, minus one AS and possible Crit. He takes around 481 BEXP to do this, which might be fair or not depending on how much you have at that point. He can also grab an immediate Gatrie support upon his join time, if he's in play.

If we assume growth bands, then Rolf has had 19 levels of which to take advantage of it, and he could choose to improve his Str or Spd over that time. Shinon can use them to greater effect due to high growths, but his EXP gain will be lower in comparison to Rolf's when they finally get a shared chapter together.

I'd like to call it even, but I haven't checked how they perform on enemies in the next few chapters, although I'd bet they'd be far too similar.

As for Elincia...it gets into the whole healer utility thing which is hard to argue. She immediately comes with A Staves and is a flying healer, which is very good. However, she comes at level 1 and has 12 Mag, which translates into 6 range with a Physic, which isn't so good. Moreover, she only has 3 chapters in which to utilize it. Ignoring her combat because it's definitely lolworthy, just how useful would she be on a team that probably has three (or maybe more) healers already?

Edited September 17, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Progenitus]

The problem with giving Rolf a forge earlygame is that he doesn't double, and also, the steel bow's wt doesn't weigh him down much anyway.

For example, let's see how a unit like Neph does. She has, liek, 8 str/11 spd, and low str but high spd growth. So she doubles, but only with iron. If she uses steel, the massive 13 wt may prevent her from doubling. So what if we give her a forged steel? It will have 8 more att than vanilla iron (7 mt vs 10, but steel mt is maxed, so 15...), and then we'll also reduce the wt so it won't weigh her down. So that's either +8 att for normal iron vs forged steel, or liek +5 att/+3 spd or something for normal steel vs forged steel. And she doubles, so that's like +16 damage or something.

Now what if we give Rolf a forged steel bow? Well, that'd be 14 mt vs 9. The bow only weighs 9 wt, so Rolf is probably not being weighed down by much. Or if it does weigh him down, he can swap to Rolf's bow which is only 8 mt. So that's a 5 or 6 mt increase depending on his weapon, but he's significantly less likely to double compared to the other units due to his poor spd base.

And even if it's only "one forge" Rolf wants, forges do have competition for the entire game.

C18 also contains the Brave Bow, which would totally shut down the Atk gain that Janaff would have with full bonuses. There's also forging, which I wouldn't really say is a major favoritism ordeal, unless we want to bite back on Mist's case. Lesse...

- Killer Bow in C13

- Laguz Bow in C14, another in C19

- C22 has a Killer and Silver Bow

- C23 has another Killer Bow

- C26 has another Laguz Bow

- C27 has lolDoubleBow

the special bows have competition in Astrid, and later Geoffrey. While they do prefer their melee weapons, the special lances/axes have much more competition for them, and they'd want something good to fall back on in case they meet something strong, like tigers or something.

Still, they are options, but I don't see how they'll let Rolf beat Janaff.

on a side note, Ulki > Janaff? Both have problems, but ulki's is mostly just needing one speedwing. janaff would need one or two energy drops (Ulki gets full att from supports) and Janaff also trails in durability, so he may need dracoshield or something as well.

[-Cynthia-]

Speedwings are in fairly high demand though. We really only get 2 the entire game(I guess we can give Ulki the one in Endgame, but do we really care by this point?). The one in Ch2? will almost certainly go to Boyd(possibly Gatrie/Oscar/Ilyana), because he gets benefits out of it immediately. This means that we'd have to entitle Ulki to the Ch13? Speedwing, which is tough to do. It means that we won't get any use out of it from C13 through all the parts of C17, which isn't good. Plus Ulki's best support partner(Mordecai) is the biggest competition and there are several others.

And while Ulki can land more ORKOS than Janaff, low Mt for beak still limits his damage output. Janaff's durability isn't much of a concern(except in regards to ballistae which hurt both anyway), so I don't see that as a big advanatage for Ulki. Another advantage for Janaff is gauge, transforming turn 1 is better IMO, because you can go unbanded with no negative reprecussions the first 4-5 turns.

Overall, I think the the cost of Ulki taking the Speedwing is greater than his other leads over Janaff, since I see the Speedwing as a fairly major resource.

Another thing in regards to forges for Rolf is that he's at a bit of a disadvantage earlygame because Rolf is the only bow user. If we forge a lance for Neph or something we can trade it to Marcia/Oscar, but if we forge a bow for Rolf we can't trade it around until Astrid shows up.

Edited September 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Speedwings are in fairly high demand though. We really only get 2 the entire game(I guess we can give Ulki the one in Endgame, but do we really care by this point?). The one in Ch2? will almost certainly go to Boyd(possibly Gatrie/Oscar/Ilyana), because he gets benefits out of it immediately. This means that we'd have to entitle Ulki to the Ch13? Speedwing, which is tough to do. It means that we won't get any use out of it from C13 through all the parts of C17, which isn't good. Plus Ulki's best support partner(Mordecai) is the biggest competition and there are several others.

indeed.

However, you can say similar things for janaff and energy drops, or other resources Janaff might need. is one speedwing more favoritism than... two energy drops? (Janaff loses base att by 2, and because he has slightly lower str growth + 1 less level to grow + no att supports, he'll fall behind in att by even more) And that's just for offense. Janaff would still be losing durability.

And while Ulki can land more ORKOS than Janaff, low Mt for beak still limits his damage output.

If ulki is doing more damage than Janaff, or landing more ORKOs, why does it matter if his weapon "limits his damage output"? It would be better than Janaff anyway.

Janaff's durability isn't much of a concern(except in regards to ballistae which hurt both anyway), so I don't see that as a big advanatage for Ulki.

Really? Janaff's durability doesn't strike me as impressive. His durability looks to be about the same as unsupported Zihark, which is pretty unimpressive as unsupported Zihark would be like... Mia level or something. Ulki, on the other hand, looks more like an unsupported Oscar. And Oscar is one of the most durable units in the game (supported Oscar is probably the most durable unit in the game).

Another advantage for Janaff is gauge, transforming turn 1 is better IMO, because you can go unbanded with no negative reprecussions the first 4-5 turns.

Is that really better than being a late transformer? There's usually very little action going on in the first 2 or so turns. Perhaps it's dependent on the chapter.

Overall, I think the the cost of Ulki taking the Speedwing is greater than his other leads over Janaff, since I see the Speedwing as a fairly major resource.

One speedwing is probably the greatest individual resource in the game, but that's all ulki really needs when compared to Janaff. janaff loses att and def by quite a bit. spd > any other stat in the game, but str + def > spd.

Another thing in regards to forges for Rolf is that he's at a bit of a disadvantage earlygame because Rolf is the only bow user. If we forge a lance for Neph or something we can trade it to Marcia/Oscar, but if we forge a bow for Rolf we can't trade it around until Astrid shows up.

indeed, something I forgot to mention as well.

Edited September 18, 2009 by pen15

[Sol Hiryu]

Don't forget that Mordecai also really wants that Speedwing, which cuts into Ulki getting one.

The whole forge thing is weird, because I keep going over pages and pages of previous debates and people citing specific forges for specific people. You know, like Oscar and Neph getting their own forges. I mostly think that it's because they get forges mostly tailored to what they need (they both get max mt, but Oscar wants hit and Neph wants crit, I think), and the possibility of trading while in the chapters themselves are fairly limited due to move differences. But since the possibility of it exists, it is a small advantage nonetheless.

@smash: The Double Bow, despite being so much weaker than its RD counterpart, is a Sniper only weapon. So either Rolf or Shinon can make use of the 4 range and +3str it gives, despite it only having 9 Mt. Yeah, it's weaker than a forge, but 4 range is nothing to sneeze at. It might also just be me, but Snipers also make better use of the Killer Bows due to innate crit and all, but...whatever.

[Progenitus]

Don't forget that Mordecai also really wants that Speedwing, which cuts into Ulki getting one.

It's still one speedwing for Ulki vs ...whatever Janaff needs. couple energy drops and dracoshield or something. The supply is just tighter for ulki.

Anyway, Mordy is still pretty good even without a speedwing. And Ulki can support boyd or Rhys if needed (though they don't give full def).

@smash: The Double Bow, despite being so much weaker than its RD counterpart, is a Sniper only weapon. So either Rolf or Shinon can make use of the 4 range and +3str it gives, despite it only having 9 Mt. Yeah, it's weaker than a forge, but 4 range is nothing to sneeze at.

I know that, but I didn't really want to talk about the double bow since it's such a terrible weapon. I forgot it had 4-range, so I guess it has its uses, but it's still pretty bad, especially since it's ONLY 4-range, not... 2-4 range, which would have made more sense.

It might also just be me, but Snipers also make better use of the Killer Bows due to innate crit and all, but...whatever.

Regardless of that fact, Rolf taking killer bows would leave less for astrid and Geoffrey.

Edited September 18, 2009 by pen15

[Colonel M]

When I was talking about forging a bow for Rolf, that was toward midgame (C18).

[Progenitus]

You can still forge other steel weapons (even by ch 18, you've only had, like, 4 opportunities beforehand to forge steel, since steel isn't forgable until ch 14 IIRC), or start forging 1-2 range weapons. and silvers are forgable by chapter 23, so that's tight too.

I don't think there's a problem with giving Rolf one, but you still have to put it on his tab. Remember that Rolf's leads on janaff have to make up for Rolf being very poor earlygame. As I said earlier, the gap between Rolf and mid tier Ilyana in ch 9 was about the same as the gap between Rolf and Janaff in ch 24, and that was Rolf with a silver bow, and silver is about the same as a forged steel, and is only situationally worse than killer/other bows. Well, at least the raw att/AS gap was. And not everyone draws the line at mid tier. If you're only regularly throwing upper mid tiers on the team, then Rolf early/midgame would be likely kicking out an upper mid tier, which would make him even worse.

Edited September 18, 2009 by pen15

[Florete]

Another problem with the Double Bow is accuracy. It's the least accurate Bow, tied with Longbow. I don't know if Shinon/Rolf have enough natural Hit to counteract that (I'm 75% sure Astrid can't use it. I know she can't use Longbows), but that combined with being fairly weak anyway (Even after the +3 Str it only beats natural Steel by 1) makes me question if it's even worth anything in tier discussion.

[Dat Nick]

Rolf will actually be levelled and have a support with Marcia or something. The Double Bow has to worry about it's shitty ATK before it even has to THINK about it's hit.

[Colonel M]

The Double Bow is comparable to Gleipner in FE8. Yeah, Double Bow sucks.

[Sol Hiryu]

Even if it were, it comes too late and can only be used by two people on your team, so it's probably not worth it in a tier discussion. I guess that's why no one ever brings up the Longbow, huh? XD;

(The Double Bow sucks a lot more ways than that, because it's strictly 4 range. If you have it equipped, your Sniper suddenly can't counter at 2 range anymore. Suck.)

So, basically, Rolf not only needs have leads over Janaff at join-time/from thereon, but his lategame existence has to be good enough to make up for his poor earlygame.

Janaff and Rolf are comparable upon the first chapter, but that's all dependent on levels/promotion/whatever favoritism we decide to give them. I'm a little iffy on comparing BEXP + a forge to a scarce resource like an Energy Drop, but I guess whatever works. I guess if Rolf does an early promo with a Seal, like...maybe 18?, then he doesn't lose as much from those two levels.

Eh...honestly, I don't think Rolf has enough going for him to get past Janaff, considering Janaff can use flight to do a lot of things in other chapters, but at the same time, Janaff will need some kills set up for him if he uses the Demi Band as chapters go on. What's the EXP rate of laguz, anyway? I know they level slightly differently, so I'd like to know exactly how slowly they gain EXP. Because 20/12 Janaff by Ch. 24 sounds a bit off, unless there's BEXP involved.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Dr. Tarrasque]

20/11 Rolf has 23 SKL and 15.6 LCK. With double Bow equipped has 126.6 Accuracy. Highest AVO in the endgame seems to be from a Swordmaster which is 61 while most other enemies have 40-50 AVO. So against that highest AVO, his hit would be 65% displayed and for the others it ranges from around 76-86 and higher.

A shame that Gamble + Deadeye isn't possible (IIRC).

Edited September 18, 2009 by ?!

[Sol Hiryu]

...it isn't? Huh, I was under the impression that you could still crit within a Deadeye activation, but I might have just been not paying attention if that happened when I was playing. But then again, I never tried to use Gamble ever, so that's probably a moot point.

Doesn't really change anything, but those figures are still pretty good for a low accuracy weapon.

[Colonel M]

I think he means Skill capacity-wise. Gamble is 10 and Deadeye is 20.

[Sol Hiryu]

Oh, right. I forgot about the skill capacity. Ah well.

...it's so strange. I keep forgetting about skills, because not that many characters make good use of them. =/