FE9 Tier list v3

[Florete]

I'm saying that Lucia is still worse than a vast majority of the team when she joins, and thus, it's not a positive for her to be fighting, taking exp/forged weapons/other resources in the process that could have gone to other units.

And here we have the false negative utility argument.

With your logic, Nasir should be in upper mid, as everyone below him at that point has more availability and takes up more resources as a result. Of course this isn't the case, why? Because they have the potential to contribute more to game completion than Nasir, which is the point of this tier list (who can help complete the game in the most efficient manner possible?). Why should Lucia be exempt from this ruling because she's low tier? Answer: she shouldn't.

Say I didn't field her whatsoever. Now she has precisly 0 negative utility. I do the same to Nasir and we have tie game: aka they are equal on the tier list. If I DO field Nasir he's taking up resources and is thus a negative compared to what Lucia does for the team. Aka Lucia > Nasir. So we have now discovered two things: Either Lucia = Nasir or Lucia > Nasir. But not Nasir > Lucia.

Thus, availability cannot, repeat, cannot be overall negative for any unit as it can always be used against the unit with less availability. It should, however, be a net positive as said unit is helping to the completion of the game without any overall negative costs. What do I mean by that? The efficiency of the team is no different if I field Lucia (-Forge + Exp) to Nephenee (-Forge + Exp). You mentioned that the dragons don't do this, but that doesn't actually matter at all. Not affecting gameplay in any way =/= negative utility.

That's my take on it, anyway.

I don't really care about Lucia vs. Dragons, but I have to agree with kirsche on this one. How can simply being around longer actually be counted against a unit? Takes experience, weapons, w/e away from others, but how many people do we generally assume are fielded? 10-12? Well, if we're debating Lucia's position, I would imagine there was probably some foresight from the player and s/he at least planned on using Lucia, so what she's "taking" would already be accounted for as long as we don't assume kill-feeding and the like. Sure, we could have replaced her with someone better, but that's why she's Low tier, right?

[Zkirsche]

To put it in a different way, we could easily compare Lucia's performance in chapter 24 and 25 only to Nasir's performance in chapters 28 and E only. Now they're both taking resources for the same period of time (2 chapters). so who would be better then?

Edited September 20, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

If I may be so bold, if Nasir is just a wall for Lucia, may I suggest Ulki go below them both?

Also, I see no way for Bastian to get above Ena. Even with a band, she's faster than him.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Kuja

[-Cynthia-]

If I may be so bold, if Nasir is just a wall for Lucia, may I suggest Ulki go below them both?

Maybe. Remember that Ulki has a big mobility advantage over them both, an availability lead, and better durability than Lucia. I'm not sure Ulki's offense is so unsalvagable he should go under them.

[Tino]

To put it in a different way, we could easily compare Lucia's performance in chapter 24 and 25 only to Nasir's performance in chapters 28 and E only. Now they're both taking resources for the same period of time (2 chapters). so who would be better then?

Does this mean I should assume you haven't read my post?

[grandjackal]

If I may be so bold, if Nasir is just a wall for Lucia, may I suggest Ulki go below them both?

Maybe. Remember that Ulki has a big mobility advantage over them both, an availability lead, and better durability than Lucia. I'm not sure Ulki's offense is so unsalvagable he should go under them.

Lucia's durability is easier to fix in the form of supporting Illyana. Ulki would most likely need a speed wing.

As for Ulki's other problems...Gauge, shitstorm offense, triple weakness, no form of ranged (at least Lucia is decent with the Runesword). In fact, Ulki has the worst kind of gauge you could ask for, one that starts at 0. On top of this due to poor speed, giving him a band is actually suicidal. It dooms his offense evne more, and screws up his durability quite a bit.

I'd hardly say he's a plus just because he's failing around for longer. In fact, for his offense? Imagine of Lucia couldn't double and didn't have a crit bonus. That's how bad it is. This is BANDLESS no less...

As for durability, he has 5 HP which isn't bad, and 8 defense which is great. Do keep in mind though that A. Lucia actually can find ways to attack at range, B. Doesn't have triple weakness, and C. A 22 avoid lead. 62 to his 40. On top of this, she has not only an Earth support, but supports that actually want her. Rhys, Mordy and Boyd are by far most likely all stocked up. Illyana on the other hand is always in a shaky situation, and might opt for Lucia if she has no choice, not that she minds such great defensive boosts. Janaff has no friends, boosting his avoid by leaps and bounds along with hers (12 on the C? Yes please!). Bastian sucks, but he's literally got no one else if you're nuts enough to use him.

Then account she can use a forge. She is more than allowed to have one, if you're considering to use her anyways chances are you'd plan for it anyways. Ulki has no way to forge, nor does he have a way to fix it outside of a speedwing. Even if he did, he would be Lucia without the forging or the crit bonus.

[-Cynthia-]

Lucia's durability is easier to fix in the form of supporting Illyana. Ulki would most likely need a speed wing.

We can also fix Ulki's doubling issues via BEXP, since he does have a 60% Spd growth. For example, 4/5/6 levels gives him 17/18/19 AS transformed. Even with just 4 levels, Ulki doubles everything but the Cavs, the boss, and Ravens, and with 6 levels he doubles everything but Ravens/Myrms. Granted, it is a fair amount of BEXP, but it's a possibility.

Rhys, Mordy and Boyd are by far most likely all stocked up

Boyd I'll give you, but Mordy/Ulki is pretty viable. The only other way Mordy is full is if Ilyana/Mist are both in play, possible but not terribly likely, and Ulki's bonuses beat Ilyana's regardless. Rhys is unlikely to be full, outside of Titania(who might be full herself), Kieran doesn't want him and Mia/Rolf are probably not in play.

A few other things, Ulki starts with 5 gauge, not 0. And bows are double effective, not triple.

[grandjackal]

We can also fix Ulki's doubling issues via BEXP, since he does have a 60% Spd growth. For example, 4/5/6 levels gives him 17/18/19 AS transformed. Even with just 4 levels, Ulki doubles everything but the Cavs, the boss, and Ravens, and with 6 levels he doubles everything but Ravens/Myrms. Granted, it is a fair amount of BEXP, but it's a possibility.

Ulki is not Rolf who is like levels far underneath. Ulki's a laguz who is level 7 at a time when your guys are probably just promoting. Fair is putting it mildly. A silver forge seems like dust in comparison.

This is also ignoring the fact that the gauge still cuts his effectiveness in half and any ranged enemy cuts it down far lower. With a band? Starts with a grand total of 13 speed, since the bonuses he'd get are a mere +1 from transformation.

Boyd I'll give you, but Mordy/Ulki is pretty viable. The only other way Mordy is full is if Ilyana/Mist are both in play, possible but not terribly likely, and Ulki's bonuses beat Ilyana's regardless. Rhys is unlikely to be full, outside of Titania(who might be full herself), Kieran doesn't want him and Mia/Rolf are probably not in play.

Did Stefan and Ranulf just suddenly vanish for Mordy? None of these supports help his #1 problem, his speed.

A few other things, Ulki starts with 5 gauge, not 0. And bows are double effective, not triple.

My bad on the gauge, not that it changes much. As for his weakness, I meant triple weakness as in he has 3 weaknesses. Laguz weapons, bows and wind magic. This includes Ballistae.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Kuja

[Sol Hiryu]

Well, Ulki does have flying utility and the ability to help ferry people across places, so that's better than what could be said of anyone below him. Plus, I do think he should get at least partial credit for the Knight Ring, if we already don't factor that in; it's something that only he or Janaff and Reyson can get, so...

Also:

Do keep in mind though that A. Lucia actually can find ways to attack at range, B. Doesn't have triple weakness, and C. A 22 avoid lead. 62 to his 40.

A. The only two options are the Sonic Sword and the Runesword. The former she has to fight with Mist and Tanith over, and the latter will destroy her AS advantage.

B. Granted, but how common are laguz-slaying weapons?

C. Did you even factor in Vigilance? That would put it at 62 vs 60 avoid, a very negligible lead.

[grandjackal]

Well, Ulki does have flying utility and the ability to help ferry people across places, so that's better than what could be said of anyone below him. Plus, I do think he should get at least partial credit for the Knight Ring, if we already don't factor that in; it's something that only he or Janaff and Reyson can get, so...

Janaff is better in every way possible, I'm not gonna field both just to gloat, I can easily see Janaff getting some form of credit.

Especially if I don't plan on using either of them, I seriously wouldn't think of fielding Ulki.

A. The only two options are the Sonic Sword and the Runesword. The former she has to fight with Mist and Tanith over, and the latter will destroy her AS advantage.

Tanith already has range, and Lucia has 2 more magic than she does. Mist has canto, what does she want Runesword for? Talk about wasting the point of it's health absorbtion alltogether.

B. Granted, but how common are laguz-slaying weapons?

You can tend to see a couple for most maps from that point forward. But do remember this is also in conjuncture with wind magic and bows.

C. Did you even factor in Vigilance? That would put it at 62 vs 60 avoid, a very negligible lead.

....;;>>

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Ulki (and Janaff for that matter) is facing a lot of shit from effective weapons.

In Ch18, the path is linear and he has to deal with a Blizzard, a Laguz Lance General, Shinon, and the moving Tornado boss.

In Ch19, ballistae.

In Ch20, it's pretty open but his progress right meets another Blizzard, 2 laguzslayers, and 3 archer/snipers.

In Ch21, not much except 2 laguzslayers and 3 archer/snipers; they're not hard to avoid here.

In Ch22, middle is suicide with the archer/snipers, and reinforcements on both sides have laguz effective weapons.

In Ch23, ballistae and Blizzard.

Then Lucia shows up.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ulki (and Janaff for that matter) is facing a lot of shit from effective weapons.

In Ch18, the path is linear and he has to deal with a Blizzard, a Laguz Lance General, Shinon, and the moving Tornado boss.

In Ch19, ballistae.

In Ch20, it's pretty open but his progress right meets another Blizzard, 2 laguzslayers, and 3 archer/snipers.

In Ch21, not much except 2 laguzslayers and 3 archer/snipers; they're not hard to avoid here.

In Ch22, middle is suicide with the archer/snipers, and reinforcements on both sides have laguz effective weapons.

In Ch23, ballistae and Blizzard.

Then Lucia shows up.

I want to know why everyone ignores the beorcguard. I suppose maybe Janaff would rather have some kind of growth band, but since he has heavy competition for the demiband it's likely there's only one other laguz (the one taking the band) so he can take the beorcguard and at least no longer fear laguz effective weapons. You can't equip two things on someone, so...

[Sol Hiryu]

...you know, I usually do end up forgetting about the Beorcguard. Mostly because it's a really weird thing to argue about. o.o

I'm unsure if it protects against arrows and ballista, though. It gets rid of the wind weakness/laguz-slayer weapons, but since all flying units in the game have a universal weakness to arrows, does it protect against that? Because from the text:

Laguz only, negates effective bonus of Laguz-killing weapons towards user

I realize that the description could be wrong, but do bows count as a laguz-killing weapon?

I also suppose it's because no one talks about the Laguzguard much, and when they do, the general consensus is that no one is entitled to it, because everyone likes to halve Laguz damage.

[grandjackal]

Janaff and Ulki fly...Don't know what laguz slaying has to do with bows outside the laguz bow.

[Narga_Rocks]

...you know, I usually do end up forgetting about the Beorcguard. Mostly because it's a really weird thing to argue about. o.o

I'm unsure if it protects against arrows and ballista, though. It gets rid of the wind weakness/laguz-slayer weapons, but since all flying units in the game have a universal weakness to arrows, does it protect against that? Because from the text:

Laguz only, negates effective bonus of Laguz-killing weapons towards user

I realize that the description could be wrong, but do bows count as a laguz-killing weapon?

I also suppose it's because no one talks about the Laguzguard much, and when they do, the general consensus is that no one is entitled to it, because everyone likes to halve Laguz damage.

Oh, I can see why we can't talk about the laguzguard, though in chapter 12 I'm not seeing anyone more worthy than either Jill or Marcia. The rest of the time, sure. Everyone benefits about equally, or even when not equally it's not a huge difference in usage. But how many laguz are being fielded? You only have Lethe, Mordecai, Ranulf, Ulki, Janaff, Muarim, right? Well, Reyson, but he doesn't matter here. Besides, knight ring, anyone? So how many are even consistently fielded? Like 2? Maybe 3? If it's just 2, then one gets demiband and Janaff gets beorcguard. Even if you have Muarim or Mordecai, I think they are durable enough that they'd rather use a growth band than the beorcguard. It's not really close to the issue with laguzguard.

Oh, and beorcguard isn't amazing. It's just effective on laguzslayer type weapons. Bows and Wind magic are still effective. Laguz Bows are obviously still effective what with being bows. It just helps on the sword/lance/axe varieties. Well, it might help on wind for hawks and fire for beasts and thunder for Ena/Nasir, actually, but I have no idea. It's been so long and I'm not sure I even tried it out when I played this game.

Actually, pretty sure it wouldn't help on wind, but might help on fire. See, wind is effective against fliers, and effective against hawks. Hawks have the feather for flight and the little bird shape, I think, so even if it basically cancels out the bird shape, they still have the feather.

So yeah, for Janaff, anyway, it's just the slayer weapons.

[Sol Hiryu]

Blargh, I forgot wind magic against all fliers. If the beorcguard managed to guard against that, then it'd be passably usable, but...honestly, it seems pretty much useless unless you're doing a full-scale charge into a bunch of enemies or something. =/

I suppose it's too minor of a point to talk about, even though the beast laguz gain a lot more from it than the hawks. I suppose Janaff can use one to stave off the effective attacks if he needs to get somewhere on the map, which would be sorta helpful, I guess.

[Narga_Rocks]

I wish the thing wasn't so useless, really. We get two laguzguards (I think) and only one beorcguard (I think), and the laguzguards are far and away better than the beorcguards. It's just another example of IS hating laguz, I guess.

Still, the point of it all it that he faces effective damage from slightly fewer enemies than he does without it. It's not a lot, but facing 9/12/13 less damage from some enemies is a good thing.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Nonsense! It has a use perfectly suited for Janaff, thanks to his instant transforming!

See, reason most maps are troublesome for hawks there on is due to ballistae, right? Well since Janaff transforms instantly, he can easily just ignore the problem. 56 avoid and 15 defense with 39 HP isn't terrible per-sey. 26 mt, 20 AS? Might not be ORKOing, but he could with an energy drop as then he'd be Ulki with doubling.

This also clears up plenty of things for him. See, with all his penalties before? Many others would target him over others. Bows, wind, laguz, all would serve to even more quickly drain out his gauge. However now that those weaknesses are gone, he now can maintain his gauge longer, as more people would target him less, in favor of more vulnerable targets. Targets that have less than 15 Defense and 12 Res *cough*MIA*cough*. Hell, he's more durable than Ike on average every time he gets to this chapter due to forced promotion (Janaff has a 2 HP and 3 Res lead). In fact, he joins as one of the most durable guys on the team aside from perhaps armors and other laguz. Srsly, check Marcia's averages. Tanith even. Only flier more durable is probably Ulki, and Ulki doesn't have the offense.

Overall, this also allows him to put his flying utility to far more use, as he now has gauge longer. He's a flying unit that can rescue fly transport AND shove, as minor as that is. He's now more free to combat in Naesala's chapter to not only get the knight's ring, but help take out the ballistae that once plagued him.

Sure he still has gauge to deal with now, but it helps that he starts the battle transformed. With all this in mind, I see no reason he shouldn't be above Mia. At average at 20/1, she has as much offense with a silver sword of which are not buyable till chapter 22. Best bet is a forged steel to...match. She has to waste a forge to match Janaff base might. On top of this, he's far more durable, even untransformed. 7 HP, 4 Def, 5 Res more durable while matching avoid (transformed). He has more move, and flight.

As for supports, Mia has a lot more time to get them, but do any actually want her? Illyana would prefer defense over a minor might boost any day. She has Gatrie and Mordecai, and Mordecai wouldn't mind at all as his other choices are latecoming Stefan, lolUlki and latecomer pathetic bonuses Ranulf. He As with Mist, but the point is that Illyana doesn't care for Mia. Mia's only other choice is lolLargo. Other than that, she has Rhys. Rhys is one of those doesn't give a shit who he supports characters. Only other reasonable support he has is Rolf, who only cares for a B anyways, so she can have an A. Lucky her it hits A by the time Janaff shows up. So ok, she has a might lead as long as frail Rhys is around.

Janaff's support situation isn't so much bad characters, as much as unfortunate ones and limited pool himself. Oscar is most definitely filled out, Janaff being his last option (EartxEarthxEarth>EarthxEarthxThunder, seriously it's crazy that Oscar has 2 Earth supports available to him). Otherwise it's Shinon and Lucia. Shinon's a bit of a sad sack when he returns, but unlike in RD he has no offense boosting supports. This means his support is for the sole benefit of his supporter. There's Rolf (no offense, Shinon needs to get away), Gatrie (who would appreciate it), and Janaff. If Shinon's in play, he at least gets a B. +10 avoid and 2 Defense for Janaff. Then Janaff has Lucia. Lucia I think is more a victim of her join time rather than her actual stats. It's been shown she can ORKO with a silver forge just fine. However, her durability is another question. Who would she A up with? Certainly not Bastian, fuck that guy. Illyana's most likely stocked up. Then Janaff shows up with his Thunder Affinitiy to fix both her problems at the same time. +1 Defense and 36 avoid for them both. This together would mean endgame, Janaff has a gand total of 112 avoid. Even untransforming, I only lost 6. That's still an ungodly amount. Without Shinon, that's 96 avoid untransformed, which is still rediculous. He mght be a waste of an enemy phase, but I'll be damned to think he's in any danger of dying. Lucia at endgame will have 116 avoid herself as well, so yet again I have two nigh unkillable units for endgame.

So Janaff has a team mate of which he makes a GREAT partner for, helping her put the Earth affinity to good use (my god, if Bastian was involved...). Mist on hte other hand keeps a frail person frail, only benefitting in the form of 3 mt. I'd say Janaff is at least the better supporter.

On top of this, it required no effort to have him start this good to begin with. Mia trained all this way to have a minor offense lead while loosing miserably defensively. Any reason now to keep Janaff out of lower mid?

[Scarlet]

See, reason most maps are troublesome for hawks there on is due to ballistae, right? Well since Janaff transforms instantly, he can easily just ignore the problem. 56 avoid and 15 defense with 39 HP isn't terrible per-sey. 26 mt, 20 AS? Might not be ORKOing, but he could with an energy drop as then he'd be Ulki with doubling.

Before going on, care to explain how being transformed removes Janaff's weakness to bows/ballistae?

[grandjackal]

See, reason most maps are troublesome for hawks there on is due to ballistae, right? Well since Janaff transforms instantly, he can easily just ignore the problem. 56 avoid and 15 defense with 39 HP isn't terrible per-sey. 26 mt, 20 AS? Might not be ORKOing, but he could with an energy drop as then he'd be Ulki with doubling.

Before going on, care to explain how being transformed removes Janaff's weakness to bows/ballistae?

Beorcguard

[Narga_Rocks]

See, reason most maps are troublesome for hawks there on is due to ballistae, right? Well since Janaff transforms instantly, he can easily just ignore the problem. 56 avoid and 15 defense with 39 HP isn't terrible per-sey. 26 mt, 20 AS? Might not be ORKOing, but he could with an energy drop as then he'd be Ulki with doubling.

Before going on, care to explain how being transformed removes Janaff's weakness to bows/ballistae?

Beorcguard

That only protects him from 3 weapons:

Laguzslayer

Laguz Lance

Laguz Axe

That's why I say it's virtually useless. It helps on 3 types of weapons. You could search the HM stats for how many it helps him on, but all it does is get rid of his "hawk" type, it doesn't get rid of his "feather" type, or whatever you want to call those pictures. He still flies, and thus needs a full guard if he wants to be protected from ballistae and bows.

[Progenitus]

wtf

are we still talking about janaff/ulki vs lucia?

People, are you forgetting that even after getting hit by a bow/laguz slayer/wind, they're STILL more durable than Lucia?

In fact, base level Ulki demi band with no supports vs base Lucia

41 HP, 16 def, 11 res, 58 avo (hi vigilance)

vs

36 HP, 10 def, 8 res, 62 avo

If both are hit by a steel bow, Ulki takes only 3 more damage than her (steel bow has 9 more mt on Ulki, Ulki wins def by 6, so ofc 9-6=3). Which means Ulki will STILL have more HP remaining, on top of def/res. and omg he loses avo by 4. at base level with no supports and demi band'd.

If both are hit by a tornado, Ulki takes a whooping 3 more damage.

If both are hit by a laguz axe, Ulki takes 7 more damage, which is the strongest laguz slaying weapon. A laguz slayer does only 3 more to Ulki.

gj lucia, even though ulki is at base level with no supports and is demi band'd and gets attacked by effective mt weapons, you're still losing durability.

The ONLY thing worrying Ulki and Janaff are ballista, and chances are you're going to kill the ballista enemies first since they are threatening to your other fliers + reyson + mages/healers. So those two just stay in the back until the ballista enemy is dead and then they move forward, and fortunately since they have flying they catch up fairly quickly.

That's far less significant than Lucia being worried about everything not using an axe because her durability is lolterrible.

Edited September 21, 2009 by pen15

[Narga_Rocks]

wtf

are we still talking about janaff/ulki vs lucia?

People, are you forgetting that even after getting hit by a bow/laguz slayer/wind, they're STILL more durable than Lucia?

In fact, base level Ulki demi band with no supports vs base Lucia

41 HP, 16 def, 11 res, 58 avo (hi vigilance)

vs

36 HP, 10 def, 8 res, 62 avo

If both are hit by a steel bow, Ulki takes only 3 more damage than her (steel bow has 9 more mt on Ulki, Ulki wins def by 6, so ofc 9-6=3). Which means Ulki will STILL have more HP remaining, on top of def/res. and omg he loses avo by 4. at base level with no supports and demi band'd.

If both are hit by a tornado, Ulki takes a whooping 3 more damage.

If both are hit by a laguz axe, Ulki takes 7 more damage, which is the strongest laguz slaying weapon. A laguz slayer does only 3 more to Ulki.

gj lucia, even though ulki is at base level with no supports and is demi band'd and gets attacked by effective mt weapons, you're still losing durability.

The ONLY thing worrying Ulki and Janaff are ballista, and chances are you're going to kill the ballista enemies first since they are threatening to your other fliers + reyson + mages/healers. So those two just stay in the back until the ballista enemy is dead and then they move forward, and fortunately since they have flying they catch up fairly quickly.

That's far less significant than Lucia being worried about everything not using an axe because her durability is lolterrible.

Except isn't that bad for Janaff? At least, in the chapters where ballista are near the front? He doesn't get to do as much until it's dead. If you get rid of it on turn 2, then on turn 1 he was cautious and flight gets him up to where your other units are anyway so he may or may not get attacked, and he'll start operating with 14 gauge on turn 3, right? This may not always be the case, but the point is as he's waiting for the ballista he's burning through gauge.

[grandjackal]

That only protects him from 3 weapons:

Laguzslayer

Laguz Lance

Laguz Axe

That's why I say it's virtually useless. It helps on 3 types of weapons. You could search the HM stats for how many it helps him on, but all it does is get rid of his "hawk" type, it doesn't get rid of his "feather" type, or whatever you want to call those pictures. He still flies, and thus needs a full guard if he wants to be protected from ballistae and bows.

Oh...Errrrr, nevermind me then ;;>>

Wasn't arguing Lucia up or the hawks down as a note. If anything, I was trying to get Janaff up. however, a slight error got in the way ;;>>

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Dat Nick]

I think the bigger issue against Ulki>Lucia is offense. SMs have about 17 AS, right? Ulki's not doubling them, the end. I suppose if he still doubles everything else though, his durability wins are probably enough of a win to compensate [plus move] so I guess it's still possible.