FE9 Tier list v3

[Florete]

Still a majority of the game is lancers, so more often than not it isn't.

This ain't FE7 buddy. The weapon triangle is pretty evenly distributed in this game.

[grandjackal]

Still a majority of the game is lancers, so more often than not it isn't.

This ain't FE7 buddy. The weapon triangle is pretty evenly distributed in this game.

Show me numbers then.

[Florete]

Still a majority of the game is lancers, so more often than not it isn't.

This ain't FE7 buddy. The weapon triangle is pretty evenly distributed in this game.

Show me numbers then.

Why should I? You made the original claim. The burden of proof is on you or your original statement holds no water.

[grandjackal]

Still a majority of the game is lancers, so more often than not it isn't.

This ain't FE7 buddy. The weapon triangle is pretty evenly distributed in this game.

Show me numbers then.

Why should I? You made the original claim. The burden of proof is on you or your original statement holds no water.

I can't just pull numbers that don't exist out of my ass. These numbers are nowhere. Since it is a common theme in fire emblem for the enemy to mainly have lances, I have no choice but to believe this is the case. It might be more balanced out, but that won't stop the fact the game will have more lances than otherwise.

[Florete]

I can't just pull numbers that don't exist out of my ass. These numbers are nowhere. Since it is a common theme in fire emblem for the enemy to mainly have lances, I have no choice but to believe this is the case. It might be more balanced out, but that won't stop the fact the game will have more lances than otherwise.

Where are you getting this from? Of the ones I've played, only FE7 is more Lance-based. Hell, I remember looking through some FE6 maps and seeing one map with zero Lance enemies, and some of the ones around it with few.

And these numbers do exist, it's called the enemy stats topic.

[Mekkah]

-Only dude with the Laguz Bow against the pirate ravens, which is basically a 40 Mt weapon due to it not only doing bonus damage to flying, but laguz as well.

No, it doesn't work like that. The game checks if a weapon is effective, or if it's not. Might is either multiplied by 1 or 2 in the effectiveness modifier. Not by 4 or more. It's like "is this enemy a laguz AND/OR a flier? OK, Laguz Bow is effective".

l2mechanics before hyping kthx

[Dat Nick]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

any help with this? It really would help me look at Rolf's earlygame better.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

any help with this? It really would help me look at Rolf's earlygame better.

If Rolf is killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, the [enemy's Power - Power] part should equal 10. This makes his Battle exp base (21+10)/2 = 15.5. Killing the enemy adds the [enemy's Power - Power] part again so the exp gained from that should total 25.5. I suspect there's something wrong with the formula.

Also, if Rolf is getting sealed, you either lose out on the 700 BEXP from Ch10 or you cripple Mist since there is only one other Master Seal.

Edited September 12, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Colonel M]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

any help with this? It really would help me look at Rolf's earlygame better.

If Rolf is killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, the [enemy's Power - Power] part should equal 10. This makes his Battle exp base (21+10)/2 = 15.5. Killing the enemy adds the [enemy's Power - Power] part again so the exp gained from that should total 25.5. I suspect there's something wrong with the formula.

Also, if Rolf is getting sealed, you either lose out on the 700 BEXP from Ch10 or you cripple Mist since there is only one other Master Seal.

Except 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of this board agrees Mist should wait to hit 20/1 anyway.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

any help with this? It really would help me look at Rolf's earlygame better.

If Rolf is killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, the [enemy's Power - Power] part should equal 10. This makes his Battle exp base (21+10)/2 = 15.5. Killing the enemy adds the [enemy's Power - Power] part again so the exp gained from that should total 25.5. I suspect there's something wrong with the formula.

Also, if Rolf is getting sealed, you either lose out on the 700 BEXP from Ch10 or you cripple Mist since there is only one other Master Seal.

Except 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of this board agrees Mist should wait to hit 20/1 anyway.

And that's going to take more BEXP than Rolf. Unless you want to wait until Ch25 while still maintaining max BEXP.

[Colonel M]

I was about to write up a giant thing on how Rolf vs Ilyana just to prove a point, but I can't get EXP figures to come out correctly. Rolf was only getting 40 EXP for killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, does anybody have an explanation? Is the EXP formula that screw or am I just messing up?

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/calculation.html

any help with this? It really would help me look at Rolf's earlygame better.

If Rolf is killing an enemy ten levels higher than him, the [enemy's Power - Power] part should equal 10. This makes his Battle exp base (21+10)/2 = 15.5. Killing the enemy adds the [enemy's Power - Power] part again so the exp gained from that should total 25.5. I suspect there's something wrong with the formula.

Also, if Rolf is getting sealed, you either lose out on the 700 BEXP from Ch10 or you cripple Mist since there is only one other Master Seal.

Except 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of this board agrees Mist should wait to hit 20/1 anyway.

And that's going to take more BEXP than Rolf. Unless you want to wait until Ch25 while still maintaining max BEXP.

...

We assumed Mist promoted by C18 at the latest, which would seem alright with some of the Staff's EXP gains.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

...

We assumed Mist promoted by C18 at the latest, which would seem alright with some of the Staff's EXP gains.

How so? You have 77 turns of combat by Ch18 for max BEXP. Heal/Mend every turn puts Mist at Level 9-10. Physic every turn puts Mist at level 17. Of course you don't have access to physics the whole time and you're not going to be staving every turn so Mist has trouble keeping up.

[-Cynthia-]

Keiran gives the same bonuses, and Rolf builds faster. Helping Marcia have 15 avoid and +2 ATK sooner is better than Tanith supporting in the least.

There's also Mov to consider, if Marcia supports Rolf she won't have active support bonuses whenever she uses her full Mov or flight(our main reason for using Marcia), whereas with Tanith she doesn't have this issue.

Illyana wold prefer defensive boosts. Mordy and Zihark call dibs.

Mordy/Zihark may not be in play. Even if they are, Zihark can get better bonuses from Muarim/Brom regardless.

Why WOULD you? If you had the choice of smacking someone at range or melee, you would always choose range. Especially since if you miss at melee, you eat a counter. Attack at range, I don't eat a counter. Mia has no such luxury, she always has to eat a counter. Only time she doesn't feel a counter is finishing someone off, and lo and behold, Rolf can do so too.

Hand Axes/Javelins usually do not have enough Mt(plus some more Hit issues) to reliably ORKO most enemy types, hence why many characters choose to attack at 1 range.

Edited September 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

There's also Mov to consider, if Marcia supports Rolf she won't have active support bonuses whenever she uses her full Mov or flight(our main reason for using Marcia), whereas with Tanith she doesn't have this issue.

This is better than having to wait all the way until chapter 24 to get better bonuses anyways. Tanith doesn't give better bonuses until her B kicks in, which is in chapter 24. Rolf could have an A by then, not that anything more than a B would matter. Keiran's free to take the A if he cares so much.

Mordy/Zihark may not be in play. Even if they are, Zihark can get better bonuses from Muarim/Brom regardless.

He gets the boosts sooner from Illin, and Illyana gets more return out of it. Why? Muarim doesn't give a fuck who he supports, nor does he care if he even does. Zihark still gets the avoid, still gets the defense. Boosts sooner, or just an extra 5 avoid? I'm not about to cry over spilt milk here.

Besides, by that logic Keiran and Tanith aren't always in play. What then? Marcia has to get her boosts from SOMEWHERE.

Hand Axes/Javelins usually do not have enough Mt(plus some more Hit issues) to reliably ORKO most enemy types, hence why many characters choose to attack at 1 range.

Thus arises the problem. Their range helps their durability for player phase, and helps their enemy phase by being able to counter anything that attacks them. It's made up by the fact that they can kill an entire swarm in the time of 1 turn. Mia has no way to match this because she has no range. Rolf may have no melee, but at least his offense is far safer, as Mia has to eat too many attacks. Not only does she have to eat counters all the time due to being stuck with melee, not only does she have no response to ranged units, this makes her a magnet for such enemy types. Since she is doing no damage to these people, I would say that she has inferior enemy phase, and is thus wasting our time. Rolf has the benefit of never being a negative, only a miniscule positive as he never gets in the way like this.

Then consider this. Basically he quickly has Mia's offense when she's full level promoted just from sealing, and has a stronger weapon type. If Mia is not killing things, that is even worse, while Rolf he can only improve durability of whoever is to take his gummed down kill. Mia has to take the counter at all times. Then due to inferior enemy phase, I have to wall off Mia like I would Rolf anyways, as her bad enemy phase would just slow us down. Even considering a wall, at least Rolf can be just behind it because if someone decides to attack over the wall, at least Rolf can counter back. Unlikely scenario indeed, but it's better than Mia just standing there like a log, forcing us to space out more with our wall.

Rolf has little if no enemy phase true, but at least he's not as restrictive as Mia having bad enemy phase due to shitty swords being shitty.

[-Cynthia-]

This is better than having to wait all the way until chapter 24 to get better bonuses anyways. Tanith doesn't give better bonuses until her B kicks in, which is in chapter 24. Rolf could have an A by then, not that anything more than a B would matter. Keiran's free to take the A if he cares so much.

Way to completely ignore the point about movement. Why does Marcia want to hang behind just so she can support Rolf when she has other partners that match her Mov better?

Besides, by that logic Keiran and Tanith aren't always in play. What then? Marcia has to get her boosts from SOMEWHERE.

They're more likely than Mordecai and Zihark since Top and High> Upper Mid.

Thus arises the problem. Their range helps their durability for player phase, and helps their enemy phase by being able to counter anything that attacks them. It's made up by the fact that they can kill an entire swarm in the time of 1 turn.

They could switch to 1 range and instead ORKO any 1 range enemies as opposed to 2RKOing, while they attack any 2 range enemies on the player phase, thus eliminating the need to counter them. You still don't seem to be grasping the concept that 1 range enemies are the majority.

Mia has no way to match this because she has no range. Rolf may have no melee, but at least his offense is far safer, as Mia has to eat too many attacks. Not only does she have to eat counters all the time due to being stuck with melee, not only does she have no response to ranged units, this makes her a magnet for such enemy types. Since she is doing no damage to these people, I would say that she has inferior enemy phase, and is thus wasting our time.

Again, you're operating with the very mistaken impression that everyone on the team is using 1-2 range, which makes little sense. Zihark and Ike won't be, and neither will any laguz, or any character who wants the extra offensive boost from not using 1-2 range weapons. Rolf being an enemy magnet for all 1 range enemies is far worse than Mia being a target for 2 range enemies, because Rolf is probably our only character that cannot counter at melee range, whereas Mia is part of several likely characters that cannot counter at range.

And again, 1 range is far more prevalent than 2 range. Take Chapter 18 for example, 24 enemies attack at 1 range, only 2 at 2 range. Mia not being able to counter those 2 opponents is far less important than Rolf not being able to counter those 24.

Rolf has the benefit of never being a negative, only a miniscule positive as he never gets in the way like this.

How is Mia being able to counter at 1 range a negative? Rolf gets targeted more and deals no damage at all, Mia deals significant damage. The main problem is that it's based off the premise that Mia must be walled off because there's a small handful of foes she can't counter, which apparently is the same as Rolf not being able to counter almost every enemy on the map.

Then consider this. Basically he quickly has Mia's offense when she's full level promoted just from sealing, and has a stronger weapon type.

How is Rolf taking a Seal a positive in his favor? There are a multitude of other characters that might want the Seal beofre Rolf, we have to let it rot in the convoy instead of getting its benefits earlier if we Seal Rolf. Considering we have only 2 Seals before Ch21, Rolf taking one is a pretty big deal.

Rolf has little if no enemy phase true, but at least he's not as restrictive as Mia having bad enemy phase due to shitty swords being shitty.

Stop overrating weapon type, it only makes a 1 Atk difference. Let's compare Mia and Rolf offensively.

15/1 Rolf B Rhys B Marcia forged Steel Bow

30 Atk 15 AS 32 Crit

20/1 Mia B Rhys B Ilyana

30 Atk 22 AS 33 Crit

In addition to the cost of Rolf taking the Seal, there are 15 opponents Rolf doesn't double that Mia does, she's the clear winner offensively.

Edited September 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Eltoshen]

This is better than having to wait all the way until chapter 24 to get better bonuses anyways. Tanith doesn't give better bonuses until her B kicks in, which is in chapter 24. Rolf could have an A by then, not that anything more than a B would matter. Keiran's free to take the A if he cares so much.

How so? Crippling Marcia by leaving her behind with Rolf? Rolf's always in the back of your lines. Marcia's main usefulness is her high movement. Why would you ruin her biggest asset?

And there's a reason why we're giving Rolf most of the BEXP and not Mia now? Arguing that Rolf > Mia would've been more interesting if he didn't take 700BEXP. Do note that we could've pumped Mia with that too. Thing is? She didn't need a pump to become decent. Rolf did. And I think you forgot everything else you gave him, including the Master Seal.

Also, you mentioned earlier something about classing Rolf up at 10? We could do the same for Boyd or Oscar. Oscar might prefer Axes, but Boyd gets bows as well. Plus he gains every advantage that Rolf had. And I have to mention that I find this idea illogical, but whatever suits you. At least Boyd gets a second weapon upon promotion, unlike Rolf.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Eltoshen

[grandjackal]

Way to completely ignore the point about movement. Why does Marcia want to hang behind just so she can support Rolf when she has other partners that match her Mov better?

Because Tanith doesn't exist until 18, doesn't give better bonuses until chapter 24. Again, the problem is that it kicks in way too far into the game when she could have befriended Rolf sooner. Not like at times she ALWAYS has to be too far away. Besides, not like he can't be rescue dropped to the front lines when enemies are out of reach even for a flier.

They're more likely than Mordecai and Zihark since Top and High> Upper Mid.

It doesn't ignore the possibility either.

They could switch to 1 range and instead ORKO any 1 range enemies as opposed to 2RKOing, while they attack any 2 range enemies on the player phase, thus eliminating the need to counter them. You still don't seem to be grasping the concept that 1 range enemies are the majority.

Or I can do the same thing with ranged weapons anyways, because then the enemy would just kill themselves moving in on player phase, and I move forward regardless. Difference being I can counter ranged bastards this way as opposed to needing to be traded out all the time.

Again, you're operating with the very mistaken impression that everyone on the team is using 1-2 range, which makes little sense. Zihark and Ike won't be, and neither will any laguz, or any character who wants the extra offensive boost from not using 1-2 range weapons. Rolf being an enemy magnet for all 1 range enemies is far worse than Mia being a target for 2 range enemies, because Rolf is probably our only character that cannot counter at melee range, whereas Mia is part of several likely characters that cannot counter at range.

It's far easier to wall off a backliner than a front liner.

You're also missing my point in that Mia being a magnet to basically everyone as a bad thing, as most of your other units actually kill on the counter. I'm saying while Rolf has little to no enemy phase, Mia's enemy phase is a waste of time, especially since her player phase always has to take a counter due to being stuck to 1 range.

Also, those units ARE penalized for it, Ulki and Janaff are in low for a reason. If they had good range, they'd be insane. Ike does get insane range later, and thus why he's not in upper mid.

And again, 1 range is far more prevalent than 2 range. Take Chapter 18 for example, 24 enemies attack at 1 range, only 2 at 2 range. Mia not being able to counter those 2 opponents is far less important than Rolf not being able to counter those 24.

Due to player phase always having to take counter, this is essentially 48 attacks she has to face. Then the ranged. They attack at range, she moves in and attacks to take a counter, they pull back and attack again, she moves in to kill. Basically 6 attacks, 8 if she has to land a second attack to kill. This is 54-56 attacks she has to face. Not only does it essentially take 2 turns to kill 2 units, even cutting it down in half due to dodge is highly likely for her to die in this chapter. There's a reason swords suck. Even a third, she faces danger because she's not a tank. I do mean a third as a note. She has no way to icnrease avoid until Largo's ass shows up. Woopie, a +6...

How is Mia being able to counter at 1 range a negative? Rolf gets targeted more and deals no damage at all, Mia deals significant damage. The main problem is that it's based off the premise that Mia must be walled off because there's a small handful of foes she can't counter, which apparently is the same as Rolf not being able to counter almost every enemy on the map.

This is implying Mia's enemy phase is good in comparison to others, of which is most definitely is not. What is the difference between no enemy phase and bad enemy phase? One doesn't waste time, because they aren't don't have to deal with it when stuck with 1 range.

You overrate melee.

How is Rolf taking a Seal a positive in his favor? There are a multitude of other characters that might want the Seal beofre Rolf, we have to let it rot in the convoy instead of getting its benefits earlier if we Seal Rolf. Considering we have only 2 Seals before Ch21, Rolf taking one is a pretty big deal.

The mages won't be dying of humiliation. Oh no, we don't have more staffers...Only ones that really care are Mist and Rolf.

Stop overrating weapon type, it only makes a 1 Atk difference. Let's compare Mia and Rolf offensively.

15/1 Rolf B Rhys B Marcia forged Steel Bow

30 Atk 15 AS 32 Crit

20/1 Mia B Rhys B Ilyana

30 Atk 22 AS 33 Crit

In addition to the cost of Rolf taking the Seal, there are 15 opponents Rolf doesn't double that Mia does, she's the clear winner offensively.

Let's look at durability.

20/1 Mia

32 HP, 11 Def, 7 Res

People actually have better durability before promotion. Volke before promotion

Volke level 20

31 HP, 17 ATK, 10 def, 4 res.

1 less HP, def and 3 less resistance, yet he has 4 more ATK. With a Dagger, he is matching Mia with Steel. Volke as we all know is a guy who has shitty offense, and is penalized for it. Yet he's not even promoted yet and is comparing to a promoted Mia. If Volke is considered to not see enemy phase due to it being a waste, I see no reason Mia should ever. In fact...

Volke base

25 HP, 12 Str, 7 Def, 3 Res

Level 9 Mia

22 HP, 8 Str, 7 Def, 2 Res

Volke does more with a Knife than she does with Steel, and is more durable by 3 HP and 1 Res.

You might say that Rolf is no better, but Rolf doesn't have to waste enemy phase to do his damage. He can chip, then Mia can kill without wasting player phase from someone better. Rolf's advantage is that he makes someone's melee have a reason, or he lets people who can't ORKO with their ranged weapons do so, so they can counter far better on enemy phase. In a way, you could say Rolf makes someone like Mia's existence on the battlefield not be a waste of time. Rolf however is not dependent on her by any means.

[Florete]

20/1 Mia B Rhys B Ilyana

30 Atk 22 AS 33 Crit

Let's look at durability.

20/1 Mia

32 HP, 11 Def, 7 Res

People actually have better durability before promotion. Volke before promotion

Volke level 20

31 HP, 17 ATK, 10 def, 4 res.

1 less HP, def and 3 less resistance, yet he has 4 more ATK.

?????????

Am I the only one missing something here? You talk about people having better durability, then show someone who has worse. Then you say he has 4 more atk and the "Wait, what?" comes.

Offense has nothing to do with durability (In most scenarios), and weapons and supports make a difference. And Volke is unlikely to ever reach lv 20 anyway.

Volke base

25 HP, 12 Str, 7 Def, 3 Res

Level 9 Mia

22 HP, 8 Str, 7 Def, 2 Res

Volke does more with a Knife than she does with Steel, and is more durable by 3 HP and 1 Res.

2 levels with her low start in 3 maps? (Not even counting 10 for stealth) And then she can also take a forge.

[grandjackal]

?????????

Am I the only one missing something here? You talk about people having better durability, then show someone who has worse. Then you say he has 4 more atk and the "Wait, what?" comes.

Durability comes with more enemy phase, which basically is your offense.

Should clarify I meant 17 Str though, my bad.

Offense has nothing to do with durability (In most scenarios), and weapons and supports make a difference. And Volke is unlikely to ever reach lv 20 anyway.

2 levels with her low start in 3 maps? (Not even counting 10 for stealth) And then she can also take a forge.

I believe Volke has problems reaching level 20 based on his shitty offense. Considering his starts better...

Edited September 12, 2009 by Kuja

[-Cynthia-]

Or I can do the same thing with ranged weapons anyways, because then the enemy would just kill themselves moving in on player phase, and I move forward regardless. Difference being I can counter ranged bastards this way as opposed to needing to be traded out all the time.

It's better to ORKO on the player phase or the enemy phase than to take both phases to kill a single enemy, it means we can move faster overall, spend the player phase doing other things etc.

It's far easier to wall off a backliner than a front liner.

Why? I never really saw any of the logic behind this point, it's as easy to put units in front of Mia as it is to put units in front of Rolf, though the point is we don't really have to do this for Mia.

You're also missing my point in that Mia being a magnet to basically everyone as a bad thing, as most of your other units actually kill on the counter.

How is Mia a magnet to basically everyone? 1 range units don't necessarily prioritize her, they would prioritize Rolf.

I'm saying while Rolf has little to no enemy phase, Mia's enemy phase is a waste of time, especially since her player phase always has to take a counter due to being stuck to 1 range.

Mia's enemy phase doesn't really have anything to do with her taking player phase counters but w/e. On the note of player phase counters, she won't take them about 30% of the time due to crit. The other % of the time she can attack things like fighters (who probably won't hit), archers who can't counter etc. Plus, we could just heal her afterwards.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Mia has this terribad offense and durability compared to enemies, thus making her enemy phase a waste, let's look at Mia more closely.

20/1 B Rhys B Ilyana forged Steel Sword

32 HP 30 Atk 22 AS 13 Def 8.5 Res 56 Avo 33 Crit

Mia ORKOS 26 out of Ch18's 35 enemies(including Ravens most other characters cannot ORKO), which isn't bad at all. Against the other 9 enemies, Mia has about a 50% chance to kill them anyway due to crit.

Durability wise, nothing 2HKOs Mia. 22/35 enemies don't 3RKO Mia either. And for the enemies that 3RKO Mia, they often face low hit rates. The Fighters for example, only have ~13.78% true on her at this point. If you think I'm cherrypicking, the Wyvern Riders with WTA over her only have about 50% hit on her. Add in the fact that Vantage gives Mia about a 30% chance to avoid a counter at 1 range(unless it's an injured enemy in which case it just dies), and Mia's durability isn't bad enough to hinder her really.

Also, those units ARE penalized for it, Ulki and Janaff are in low for a reason. If they had good range, they'd be insane. Ike does get insane range later, and thus why he's not in upper mid.

Ulki and Janaff are in Low due to relatively poor offense and gauge issues, not really due to 1-2 range(Muarim is almost in High). Ike only has 1-2 range for 2 chapters, if having access to 2 range would be so important he would undoubtedly be lower. Having 1-2 range is certainly an advantage, but you're blowing it out of proportion, since units are sacrificing offensive potential in the process (except for mages, but they have durability issues)

I skipped your second part because it made almost no sense. Obviously Mia isn't taking on every single melee unit on the map, neither is Rolf. The point is though, that we can expose Mia to them, exposing Rolf to them just slows us down, and you're assuming Mia cannot ORKO again.

This is implying Mia's enemy phase is good in comparison to others, of which is most definitely is not. What is the difference between no enemy phase and bad enemy phase? One doesn't waste time, because they aren't don't have to deal with it when stuck with 1 range.

See above where I show how Mia is pretty decent durability and offense wise post promotion. Yes, I suppose she isn't as good as someone like Kieran, but exposing Mia to enemies won't be slowing us down at this point.

Rolf is denying our team additonal staff user by taking a Seal, this would be detrimental.

You might say that Rolf is no better, but Rolf doesn't have to waste enemy phase to do his damage. He can chip, then Mia can kill without wasting player phase from someone better. Rolf's advantage is that he makes someone's melee have a reason, or he lets people who can't ORKO with their ranged weapons do so, so they can counter far better on enemy phase. In a way, you could say Rolf makes someone like Mia's existence on the battlefield not be a waste of time. Rolf however is not dependent on her by any means.

Again, your argument seems to be hinging upon an underestimation of the team's offense in general, particularly Mia's. Mia really doesn't need Rolf's chip damage very often, as she ORKOS rather frequently.

Edited September 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

?????????

Am I the only one missing something here? You talk about people having better durability, then show someone who has worse. Then you say he has 4 more atk and the "Wait, what?" comes.

Durability comes with more enemy phase, which basically is your offense.

What the...? You showed a character with worse durability than Mia. Did you miss that part somehow?

Offense has nothing to do with durability (In most scenarios), and weapons and supports make a difference. And Volke is unlikely to ever reach lv 20 anyway.

2 levels with her low start in 3 maps? (Not even counting 10 for stealth) And then she can also take a forge.

I believe Volke has problems reaching level 20 based on his shitty offense. Considering his starts better...

Are...you even reading what you're responding to? I mention weapons, forges, supports, and levels and you just continue off your own stats?

And Volke also has Thieving which can hinder his CEXP gain.

[Eltoshen]

Goes to show that Rolf won't be getting much higher than Nasir and Ena, lol.

Ruins the whole reason for the last 4 pages or so. And to those who claim Rolf becomes better than Shinon, I think Shinon's usefulness in the earlier chapters far outweighs Rolf's potential in the later chapters since there are so many combat units that fight better than him...and there's Boyd who can eat the Master Seal and instawin over Rolf.

And Kuja: Enemies prioritize those who can't strike back before targeting units with the lowest defense. This is what makes Rolf suck a lot, especially in earlier chapters. He basically requires that you shield him off. I believe you're assuming that Rolf's blocked off, which is why Mia's getting the blunt of the attacks.

Get what I mean? If Rolf isn't shielded off, all enemy attacks are drawn to him and your units are slowed down because they have to deal with the enemies that surrounded Rolf. The fact that he needs to be shielded is a negative, but you're making it seem like a positive in his favor. Makes little sense to me.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Colonel M]

Ignoring him anyway...

If we can prove that without using the seal that he isn't a negative, then him > the Dragons is a fairly safe assumption.

[Eltoshen]

Uh, I just said that, unless you're freaking blind. His availability alone beats the dragons, IMO. Something around 20ish chapters versus 2?

By that time, the dragons can't do anything your other units can do better. Nasir might be pretty decent, but Ena isn't so.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Colonel M]

I saw it and was agreeing. But I see that > others is a likely possibility. For example, what is Ulki really winning against Rolf to begin with?