FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Jill, Marcia, and Tanith, however, will be engaged in active combat on a constant basis. The only way Janaff will be constantly in combat is if he is taking the Laguz band (at which point he can't equip the guard anyways).

Also, even if Jill reaches max level, she will have 24 defense. Less if she isn't capped. While it is true that Jill may not die to a single blow from a bow, being hit by a bow drastically increases the chances that someone else that turn will kill her (plus, Jill won't always be topped off).

Even Snipers at the very end of the game only have about 34 effective attack, a scary 5HKO (at poor hit rates, no less) against Jill.

How about actually focusing on the statement I made? The hawks suck so they won't get the LB. Lethe, Mordi, and Muarim are all far superior to the hawks, and all likely pre-empt them for the LB.

That's not how it works, Snowy. Units do not 'preempt' other units for resources because they are better. For example, Ike is better than Mordecai, but that does not mean that Ike 'preempts' Mordecai for the Speedwing. The person we give the Demi Band to will be the person who gives us the most benefit from it. If Lethe is running around at the back because she can't fly, we are not getting any significant benefit from it.

Mordecai does not preempt anyone for the Demi Band. His doubling is already on extremely shaky ground and there's no point when he could just smite-bot instead of being a sub-par combatant. Lethe doesn't fly, so Janaff preempts her pretty much without a fight in Chapter 21, 23, 25, and 28. Muarim, I've already conceded.

Mordi is also the closest thing to a Laguz tank in the game and Lethe is very powerful until about chapter 21-ish.

Then Laguz tanks suck. Mordecai's defense is good but nothing to write home about and certainly nothing to go out of your way to make use of. Since even 'frail' people like Marcia are basically never at risk of death with intelligent play, having

Janaff's ONLY benefit is that he flies.

I could say the same for Elincia.

I don't think that is worth robbing the team of a high-movement tank or a Jeigan for.

I'm perfectly happy to ditch Jeigans when better units show up.

While flight is useful, it is not a be-all end-all, even by tier standards. Does Janaff even have the stats to take a Laguz band hit? He loses 3 STR and 2 defense when demied after all.

I'm not suggesting flight is a be-all end-all (it only is if you can back it up with non-terrible stats and not untransforming, so tough luck, Janaff). But 'flying in 12 chapters' is better than Elincia's 'flying and healing in three chapters'.

Let's not forget, though Elincia is a flier as well, she doesn't need excessive defense as she will not be a combatant. She comes in with basically no cost. And while she is around for only 3 chapters, she also doesn't have to take either the Full Guard or Laguz Band to be useful and IS actually useful (at least if you have the slots to use her).

Janaff doesn't need to take the Full Guard or Laguz Band to be useful. He still has 4 turns of helping out before he untransforms and enough durability to take a couple of hits.

Mordecai has spd problems after midgame and none of the units listed above can fly.

If you're willing to speedwing him, he can extend his doubling into Daein, but I don't think he can extend it into Crimea (which has the more challenging chapters anyway).

That said, I don't think Janaff will need the Demi Band anyway because he'll usually get around 4 player phases and 3 enemy phases of combat, which in most cases should last until the chapter is almost done. And by that point, his participation is completely superfluous.

Actually, it occured to me I made a mistake, since Janaff doesn't lose gauge on turn 1. He can engage in combat eight times and untransform at the start of turn 6, or he can engage in combat 11 times and untransform at the start of turn 5. Since virtually every lategame chapter can be beaten in 5 or fewer turns, I don't think it's a big deal myself. And rescuing and dropping doesn't consume gauge as much, so in certain chapters he can probably extend himself to remain transformed in turn 6.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Black★Star

[Balcerzak]

Actually, it occured to me I made a mistake, since Janaff doesn't lose gauge on turn 1. He can engage in combat eight times and untransform at the start of turn 6, or he can engage in combat 11 times and untransform at the start of turn 5. Since virtually every lategame chapter can be beaten in 5 or fewer turns, I don't think it's a big deal myself. And rescuing and dropping doesn't consume gauge as much, so in certain chapters he can probably extend himself to remain transformed in turn 6.

Indeed. The big exceptions are 17-3, 18, and 21. Gauge is as close to a non-issue for Lethe and Janaff as you can get. Granted you can't have them tanking All Of The Enemies^TM on an enemy phase, but they can engage in standard healthy teamwork with no problems at all.

As for Demi-band? I tend to only ever give that to late transformers like Mordy, Ulki, or Ena. Putting it on anyone else strikes me as a huge waste, barring perhaps specific tactical instances. This could just be my style, as everyone else seems to at least try to suggest it for any laguz, which at times completely boggles my mind.

[Zkirsche]

I could see Janaff going up. Not sure if he's better than Ranulf or not. Ranulf wins statisically, but Janaff has flight and availability and both have to deal with gauge.

With the demi band, statistically, they're very similar. With Ranulf having 1 mov to Janaff's flight. Without it, we have to wait 3 turns for Ranulf to transform (unless he tanks hits). That's a good portion of the level gone already, and the statistical lead doesn't nearly cover the fact that Janaff can actually contribute twice as much as Ranulf in a chapter anyway. Then factor in the availability lead and I think its a clear win. I definitely want to see him in lower mid, at least.

Is it impossible for this topic to not touch Mist? Seriously?

Well, its just the subjectiveness of healers which brings her up everytime. She's probably a more controversial unit than Nephenee from FE10. The start of this list is like, 10 pages of Mist vs Volke, which is a completely redundant argument.

[-Cynthia-]

I moved Janaff above Ranulf for now. I agree that Janaff's gauge isn't a big issue because he's an early tranformer and given that we're completing chapters quickly he doesn't spend that much time untransformed.

I will mention that the Full Guard is useful for Jill/Marcia/Tanith not really because of normal Snipers but because of the threat of ballistae, which show up a lot in the later chapters.

[Snowy_One]

Even Snipers at the very end of the game only have about 34 effective attack, a scary 5HKO (at poor hit rates, no less) against Jill.

Snipers are not the only enemies in the game who get effective bonuses on fliers, nor is Jill the only flier in the game. Also, I'm curious, are you comparing Jill with her supports, or without?

That's not how it works, Snowy. Units do not 'preempt' other units for resources because they are better. For example, Ike is better than Mordecai, but that does not mean that Ike 'preempts' Mordecai for the Speedwing. The person we give the Demi Band to will be the person who gives us the most benefit from it. If Lethe is running around at the back because she can't fly, we are not getting any significant benefit from it.

Mordecai does not preempt anyone for the Demi Band. His doubling is already on extremely shaky ground and there's no point when he could just smite-bot instead of being a sub-par combatant. Lethe doesn't fly, so Janaff preempts her pretty much without a fight in Chapter 21, 23, 25, and 28. Muarim, I've already conceded.

Okay. That wasn't my point. My point is that Mordi, Muarim, and Lethe all can use the LB. All of them can use it well, and aside from Lethe, none of them can transform on turn 1. Janaff taking the band renders it basically useless while he in transformed normally (as he can get the better stats) meaning the band won't even be equipped until after his gauge starts to run low, which won't happen for several turns. That is a huge problem.

You haven't even show that Janaff should take the band. Just said that he could do so. So why should Janaff have the band? Is he even remotely effective with it equipped?

Then Laguz tanks suck. Mordecai's defense is good but nothing to write home about and certainly nothing to go out of your way to make use of. Since even 'frail' people like Marcia are basically never at risk of death with intelligent play, having

I personally find the concept of 'intelligent' and 'tier' to be mutually exclusive, but that is not the point right now.

Mordi can easily net 24-26 defense and breeches 60 HP at level 15. There is no denying that he is insanely tough. If you are about to go into a enemy phase and need a damage sponge who does not have general-esque movement, you will be using Mordi. Being demi'ed allowed him to function as a damage sponge for a prolonged period of time; especially if we give him a wing or two to help his speed out. Janaff simply fails compared to what Mordi offers. No band for Janaff.

I could say the same for Elincia.

Elincia: 0-cost healer, flight, unique weapon that never breaks and is insanely useful (in of itself. Elincia is still weak in combat because of her lack-luster STR), capable of wielding both the SS and RS effectivally, and generally doing everything Mist does, but better, for the few chapters she's in when she's at equal levels.

Janaff: Another flier when we have Marcia, Tanith, and Jill. Laguz transform gauge. Only advantage; ummm... BIRDY!

I'm perfectly happy to ditch Jeigans when better units show up.

Then ditch Titania for Oscar/Kieran.

I'm not suggesting flight is a be-all end-all (it only is if you can back it up with non-terrible stats and not untransforming, so tough luck, Janaff). But 'flying in 12 chapters' is better than Elincia's 'flying and healing in three chapters'.

The problem with that is that Janaff is pretty awful for those 12 chapters while Elincia, even if untouched, is useful for her 3. You can throw her onto any team at any level and she can help out. Janaff, not so much.

Janaff doesn't need to take the Full Guard or Laguz Band to be useful. He still has 4 turns of helping out before he untransforms and enough durability to take a couple of hits.

Janaff is also stuck wielding a 7 MT weapon. At max level, unbanded, he has 33 MT. Lucia at base level has 3 less than him with a Silver blade. Heaven forbid, she reach max, she actually BEATS him without even touching the forge or supports. Can he even kill a non-mage/priest with that low MT? At least Lucia can get a forge to make it possible. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to wager that any use Janaff has will be gone before chapter 23.

Since virtually every lategame chapter can be beaten in 5 or fewer turns, I don't think it's a big deal myself.

So what? Not everyone is going to beat it that fast. What if you fail to beat it in that amount of time? Can you beat those chapters safely? I don't think you can even cross the bridge in that one chapter, let alone kill Petrine or have Ike sieze, in 5 turns while being safe.

[Interceptor]

It's 'generally accepted' by Int/Narga, but I live in reality, where Mist is just 'supports + staff rank + horse', none of which require me to waste 1500 BEXP on her.

Reality in this case, is your imagination, since "Int" doesn't generally accept what was asserted by whoever the heck you replied to. The actual reality of the situation with Mist is complicated, since you can give varying amounts of BEXP to her in order to get different levels of performance at the end of it.

Mist still sucks. And I'm not saying that to troll around. Her having a horse is like the only reason she has a use for a stinking healbot.

Good lord, someone take Mist out of Top tier before the division by zero causes a black hole that will engulf the entire known universe!

Oh wait, she's in Upper Mid, just like a whole slew of other flawed characters.

I do think that the benefits of a healer having higher Mov may have been exaggerated by some [...]

Just like some couldn't properly recognize useful utility, even if a character fell out of the sky and doubled them in the face with a Sonic Sword.

[Colonel M]

Come now I'm just sick of the discussion with Mist. <_<

I know this seems a little crazy, but has Marcia > Boyd ever been discussed before? I guess it seems a bit crazy, but thinking about it after the BEXP dump and some of the things she can do like in Chapter 12, it might be enough of a push perhaps.

...I probably should play this game again. >_<

Can he even kill a non-mage/priest with that low MT?

You forget how piss weak enemies are in this game.

33 Mt ORKOes everything in Chapter 18 barring a General with Laguz Lance and the Ravens.

Chapter 19 it misses the Wyvern Rider and Lord, 2 Myrmidons (fails to double), Homasa.

Chapter 20 it misses on the Wyverns and the Armor Knights. Janaff also does 24 damage to Shiharam.

So pretty much from a cursory glance it misses Armor Knights and some of the Wyvern Riders / Lords. Myrmidions too pending on their AS. Pity that the first Energy Drop is back in Chapter 13 and it's likely used at that point.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Colonel M

[Anouleth]

I'm afraid, Snowy, that if you want to continue this argument, you would be better off trying to argue Janaff below Ranulf or Elincia above Ranulf.

Snipers are not the only enemies in the game who get effective bonuses on fliers, nor is Jill the only flier in the game. Also, I'm curious, are you comparing Jill with her supports, or without?

Okay, there's also Bow Paladins, who are even weaker and less accurate.

Without her supports. If she had her supports, she would have 26 or 27DEF and face even less damage.

Okay. That wasn't my point. My point is that Mordi, Muarim, and Lethe all can use the LB. All of them can use it well, and aside from Lethe, none of them can transform on turn 1. Janaff taking the band renders it basically useless while he in transformed normally (as he can get the better stats) meaning the band won't even be equipped until after his gauge starts to run low, which won't happen for several turns. That is a huge problem.

You haven't even show that Janaff should take the band. Just said that he could do so. So why should Janaff have the band? Is he even remotely effective with it equipped?

Well, I don't really think Janaff needs the Band. But the way to argue that he shouldn't get it isn't to just assert that 'he sucks'.

I personally find the concept of 'intelligent' and 'tier' to be mutually exclusive, but that is not the point right now.

I could say the same about the concepts of 'intelligent' and 'Snowy_One'.

Mordi can easily net 24-26 defense and breeches 60 HP at level 15. There is no denying that he is insanely tough. If you are about to go into a enemy phase and need a damage sponge who does not have general-esque movement, you will be using Mordi. Being demi'ed allowed him to function as a damage sponge for a prolonged period of time; especially if we give him a wing or two to help his speed out. Janaff simply fails compared to what Mordi offers. No band for Janaff.

A level 15 Mordecai has 21DEF with the Demi Band, not 24-26. In addition, Mordecai does not approach that level until the very end of the game.

Elincia: 0-cost healer, flight, unique weapon that never breaks and is insanely useful (in of itself. Elincia is still weak in combat because of her lack-luster STR)

Amiti is not insanely useful. It's a good weapon, but Elincia is certainly never going to kill anything of note with it.

, capable of wielding both the SS and RS effectivally,

All we have to do is sit on the Arms Scrolls until the last three chapters of the game, and we get a character who can use the magic swords worse than Lucia?

and generally doing everything Mist does, but better, for the few chapters she's in when she's at equal levels.

Actually, it's questionable if she even does it better than Mist, since even an underlevelled Mist will have about 8 more magic than Elincia and thus more Physic range, more Rescue range, better healing, so on.

Janaff: Another flier when we have Marcia, Tanith, and Jill. Laguz transform gauge. Only advantage; ummm... BIRDY!

I'm perfectly happy with Janaff being an inferior version of Jill or Tanith, given that Tanith is in High Tier and Jill is in Top Tier. Elincia is an inferior version of Mist, an Upper Mid character, for three chapters.

Then ditch Titania for Oscar/Kieran.

Oscar and Kieran aren't better than Titania when they show up. It's not until almost the end of the game that you'll have more than like, five characters that are obviously better than Titania.

Like I said, I'm happy to ditch Jeigans for better characters. However, there are very few characters better than Titania even into the lategame.

The problem with that is that Janaff is pretty awful for those 12 chapters while Elincia, even if untouched, is useful for her 3. You can throw her onto any team at any level and she can help out. Janaff, not so much.

Of course Janaff helps.

Janaff is also stuck wielding a 7 MT weapon.

So?

At max level, unbanded, he has 33 MT.

Yes, that's pretty low.

Lucia at base level has 3 less than him with a Silver blade. Heaven forbid, she reach max, she actually BEATS him without even touching the forge or supports. Can he even kill a non-mage/priest with that low MT? At least Lucia can get a forge to make it possible. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to wager that any use Janaff has will be gone before chapter 23.

Killing soft targets like Sages and Bishops is still an important job that needs to be done. And Janaff can weaken tougher targets for someone else to kill.

So what? Not everyone is going to beat it that fast. What if you fail to beat it in that amount of time? Can you beat those chapters safely? I don't think you can even cross the bridge in that one chapter, let alone kill Petrine or have Ike sieze, in 5 turns while being safe.

I've done it, I think. Can't be bothered to check. The other chapters vary on your team, but the following should always be possible to beat in five turns with a flier + Reyson.

Chapter 19:

-Homasa can be killed on turn 2 by a base level Tanith with a Steel forge, no chance of death. You can beat in three turns and get the Knight Ring.

Chapter 20:

-Anyone can arrive, it only takes 2 or 3 turns to reach the arrive square and kill Shihiram (Calill might need to help with a siege tome)

Chapter 22:

-Base level Calill with Tormod support 2HKOes Schaeffer. Alternatively, you can kill him on turn 2 and get the Bolting.

Chapter 24:

-Flier goes straight for the arrive square. With Reyson's help, an easy 5 turn.

Come now I'm just sick of the discussion with Mist. <_<

I know this seems a little crazy, but has Marcia > Boyd ever been discussed before? I guess it seems a bit crazy, but thinking about it after the BEXP dump and some of the things she can do like in Chapter 12, it might be enough of a push perhaps.

I've brought it up before. I think her flying is much more important than his higher strength.

So pretty much from a cursory glance it misses Armor Knights and some of the Wyvern Riders / Lords. Myrmidions too pending on their AS. Pity that the first Energy Drop is back in Chapter 13 and it's likely used at that point.

There's a second in Chapter 21 that he can take.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Black★Star

[Dark Sage]

Yeah. All of this is making me think Janaff could swap places with Ranulf.

For one, he has:

-Best gauge type. Since chapters will end by the time he untransforms, he'll be able take advantage of his flight and combat utility

-As a result, he has no need for the Demi Band, freeing it up for other laguz.

-He has availability over both him and Elincia. His flight utility is also less redundant than Ranulf's ok combat and Elincia's healing. With Elincia, he has Marcia, Tanith and Jill to replace his flight utility (Haar and Ulki aren't likely to be in play). Elincia not only has those to make her flight utility redundant but also Mist, Rhys, and Sealed Soren and Ilyana to make her healing redundant.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Kaoz]

I know this seems a little crazy, but has Marcia > Boyd ever been discussed before? I guess it seems a bit crazy, but thinking about it after the BEXP dump and some of the things she can do like in Chapter 12, it might be enough of a push perhaps.

Well, when we're just assuming LTC, that's most likely true. I forgot what the assumed speed for this list is though.

That being said, why is Nephenee above Lethe and Mordecai?

[-Cynthia-]

1-2 range, no gauge to deal with, better supports (than Lethe anyway), significantly better lategame combat.

That being said, Nephenee is a bit of a slow starter and the laguz always have Mov on her, so I could see one or both of them above her.

[Anouleth]

Yeah. All of this is making me think Janaff could swap places with Ranulf.

For one, he has:

-Best gauge type. Since chapters will end by the time he untransforms, he'll be able take advantage of his flight and combat utility

-As a result, he has no need for the Demi Band, freeing it up for other laguz.

-He has availability over both him and Elincia. His flight utility is also less redundant than Ranulf's ok combat and Elincia's healing. With Elincia, he has Marcia, Tanith and Jill to replace his flight utility (Haar and Ulki aren't likely to be in play). Elincia not only has those to make her flight utility redundant but also Mist, Rhys, and Sealed Soren and Ilyana to make her healing redundant.

Janaff is already above Ranulf.

[Interceptor]

Come now I'm just sick of the discussion with Mist. <_<

Mist still sucks. And I'm not saying that to troll around. Her having a horse is like the only reason she has a use for a stinking healbot.

Reap what you sow, Colonel.

[Zkirsche]

I know this seems a little crazy, but has Marcia > Boyd ever been discussed before? I guess it seems a bit crazy, but thinking about it after the BEXP dump and some of the things she can do like in Chapter 12, it might be enough of a push perhaps.

I did, when I first got her into top tier in the first place. Tbh, she might be better than Kieran as well. But 9 mov + flight + great stats after being levelled should really put her above Boyd.

[Dark Sage]

I can buy Neph>Lethe personally but not Mordecai>Neph. His offense is bad lategame, but he always has smite utility and move over Neph and has significantly better early game.

@Anouleth: Ah. Last time I checked, it was Ranulf>Janaff.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Zkirsche]

Lethe has an even better earlygame though.

[Snowy_One]

Okay, there's also Bow Paladins, who are even weaker and less accurate.

Without her supports. If she had her supports, she would have 26 or 27DEF and face even less damage.

Chapter 24. Sniper has 22 AT with a Steel bow. 31 with effective bonus. Assuming Jill is 20/10 at this point, she has 20 DEF. 23-24 with supports (which require Lethe and that Mist be in range). Jill has 42 HP. Without support bonuses, she takes 11 damage, putting her at 31 HP. Not a lethal bow in of itself, but combined with smaller nicks from throughout the level, and a quarter of HP in a single hit is a bigger threat. Especially for Marcia and Tanith as well who are weaker than Jill. Marcia has only 16 Defense and 37 HP. A hit from this sniper deals 15 damage dropping her down to 22 HP. Even assuming that they are topped off, this is a lot of damage from one single hit and there are additional enemies incoming. I would say there is defiantly significant enough risk to fliers to make Janaff's taking the FG a big downside.

Well, I don't really think Janaff needs the Band. But the way to argue that he shouldn't get it isn't to just assert that 'he sucks'.

Okay. He's a poor choice with the band due to his gauge and he's a poor choice without the band due to his low MT. AKA: Sucking.

A level 15 Mordecai has 21DEF with the Demi Band, not 24-26. In addition, Mordecai does not approach that level until the very end of the game.

I won't argue for or against or anything. However, if Mordi cannot get 18 level-ups in 15+ chapters, then this will reflect upon the other units as well. Janaff will have 30 MT at endgame (His MT at level 15, instead of 20) for starters.

Amiti is not insanely useful. It's a good weapon, but Elincia is certainly never going to kill anything of note with it.

Defense +3, RES +3. Without even doing anything, that's pretty useful. I will grant, it will take some work to get Elincia able to kill things with it (put lightly), in the event you do, it's useful for killing softies to say the least.

All we have to do is sit on the Arms Scrolls until the last three chapters of the game, and we get a character who can use the magic swords worse than Lucia?

Because Elincia won't get any level ups, no Bexp, or anything of the sort. Right?

Actually, it's questionable if she even does it better than Mist, since even an underlevelled Mist will have about 8 more magic than Elincia and thus more Physic range, more Rescue range, better healing, so on.

If Physic staves was really that big an issue, people would be drooling over Rhys. Everyone adores Mist because her movement allows her to use normal staves on people. Since Elincia can do that without worrying about terrain mucking her up, she will do it better.

I'm perfectly happy with Janaff being an inferior version of Jill or Tanith, given that Tanith is in High Tier and Jill is in Top Tier. Elincia is an inferior version of Mist, an Upper Mid character, for three chapters.

Elincia is still useful however. In chapter 18, assuming Janaff is level 10 and unbanded, he will have 27 MT. He deals 24 damage to the 31 HP'ed wyverns, 32 to the 33 HP'ed soldiers, kills the archer, 34 to the 40 HP'ed warrior, kills the mages, 20 damage to the 32 HP'ed knight, 26 to the 34 HP'ed sword knights, and so forth. Even if he is a level or two higher, that only adds the soldiers to his choice of targets. 27 MT. If leveled, Volke could almost match this with a stiletto without promoting (25-26). Heck, endgame, Janaff matches Stiletto-Volke in offensive power when banded. Janaff is useless. Elincia is useful, though limited.

Of course Janaff helps.

Janaff fails to kill basic units even when unbanded.

Yes, that's pretty low.

That's not 'just' low. The only endgame units he kills is the sage and bishop. He actually deals single-digit damage to the knights and dragons. I'm pretty sure that there are units who can hit his endgame STR by chapter 18. In fact, Kieran can hit his endgame STR as soon as he promotes with a forged steel/silver, and I'm sure others won't be far behind.

Killing soft targets like Sages and Bishops is still an important job that needs to be done. And Janaff can weaken tougher targets for someone else to kill.

Almost any unit can handle the 'kill soft targets'. Even Elincia can handle it with one or two level-ups thanks to Amiti. Except Elincia can also add in the fact that she is healing for several chapters, which is useful no matter what, while Janaff does nothing useful.

I've done it, I think. Can't be bothered to check. The other chapters vary on your team, but the following should always be possible to beat in five turns with a flier + Reyson.

Chapter 19:

-Homasa can be killed on turn 2 by a base level Tanith with a Steel forge, no chance of death. You can beat in three turns and get the Knight Ring.

Chapter 20:

-Anyone can arrive, it only takes 2 or 3 turns to reach the arrive square and kill Shihiram (Calill might need to help with a siege tome)

Chapter 22:

-Base level Calill with Tormod support 2HKOes Schaeffer. Alternatively, you can kill him on turn 2 and get the Bolting.

Chapter 24:

-Flier goes straight for the arrive square. With Reyson's help, an easy 5 turn.

I could not find a video of chapter 19 being beaten in 2 turns (and don't think it is even possible to reach Homasa on turn 2 without being forced to go down the center or very close to Naesala). I would want to see proof both of this, and that this isn't a speedrun specific strategy.

Heck. Why is Elincia below Tauroneo? Tauro needs to be at 50% health to double, has low movement, and doesn't really do anything unique even when shifted. Elincia still has her healing ability to be sure, which is always useful.

[-Cynthia-]

You may be overestimating the value of lategame healing. Healing is not useful no matter what, if no one is in danger of dying no one needs to be healed. Elincia is hardly our only healer available either, we probably have one or two other staff users that have some advantages over her (better supports, better offense etc). Being a third-rate healer for three chapters when there generally isn't much healing to be done isn't particularly impressive.

That being said, I'm not sure on Tauroneo's usefulness. There was some talk of Rescue dropping him on the top level of C25 to activate Resolve, though I'm not sure whether this is actually more efficient than just having the flier kill enemies themselves. I personally find it hard to get Tauroneo into Resolve range, with his Mov he just doesn't face enough enemies to take enough damage. Without Resolve, his damage output is not so good due to not being able to double much of anything (Braves allieviate this somewhat).

[Zkirsche]

Okay i've just about had enough of this.

Chapter 24. Sniper has 22 AT with a Steel bow. 31 with effective bonus. Assuming Jill is 20/10 at this point, she has 20 DEF. 23-24 with supports (which require Lethe and that Mist be in range). Jill has 42 HP. Without support bonuses, she takes 11 damage, putting her at 31 HP. Not a lethal bow in of itself, but combined with smaller nicks from throughout the level, and a quarter of HP in a single hit is a bigger threat. Especially for Marcia and Tanith as well who are weaker than Jill. Marcia has only 16 Defense and 37 HP. A hit from this sniper deals 15 damage dropping her down to 22 HP. Even assuming that they are topped off, this is a lot of damage from one single hit and there are additional enemies incoming. I would say there is defiantly significant enough risk to fliers to make Janaff's taking the FG a big downside.

For starters, we could target snipers on the player phase. Next, you so conveniently chose the strongest sniper on the map to make your point.

You also completely disregarded hit rates. Jill has ~53 avo banded and unsupported. That means enemies have ~50 hit on her. And also, with that def, still unsupported, quite a few enemies tink her. Add supports in and even more tink her and they struggle further to hit her. Marcia could have 79 avo supported, assuming we give Kieran's 'A' to Oscar. 81 with 'A' Kieran. Now she faces, like, ~30 displayed hit. And we're still worrying about her getting hit enough that she can't simply vulnerary herself back to full HP?

And also, 20/10 may not even be a generous level for them. It's less than a level per chapter if they promote at chapter 16, and I see no reason for them to not get more than that.

Okay. He's a poor choice with the band due to his gauge and he's a poor choice without the band due to his low MT. AKA: Sucking.

Except Elincia is even worse.

I won't argue for or against or anything. However, if Mordi cannot get 18 level-ups in 15+ chapters, then this will reflect upon the other units as well. Janaff will have 30 MT at endgame (His MT at level 15, instead of 20) for starters.

Note that the exp gain they both receive for the same chapters is not equal. Aka, Mordy gets like 1 exp per kill, whereas Janaff gets ~10.

Defense +3, RES +3. Without even doing anything, that's pretty useful. I will grant, it will take some work to get Elincia able to kill things with it (put lightly), in the event you do, it's useful for killing softies to say the least.

Janaff can kill softies and does it for like, 5 chapters more than Elincia and probably with less resources.

If Physic staves was really that big an issue, people would be drooling over Rhys. Everyone adores Mist because her movement allows her to use normal staves on people. Since Elincia can do that without worrying about terrain mucking her up, she will do it better.

Except there's very little terrain mucking her up, and people don't drool over Rhys because he doesn't have awesome supports or can be decent at combat or have any durability so to speak. Not because he needs physics staves.

Elincia is still useful however. In chapter 18, assuming Janaff is level 10 and unbanded, he will have 27 MT. He deals 24 damage to the 31 HP'ed wyverns, 32 to the 33 HP'ed soldiers, kills the archer, 34 to the 40 HP'ed warrior, kills the mages, 20 damage to the 32 HP'ed knight, 26 to the 34 HP'ed sword knights, and so forth. Even if he is a level or two higher, that only adds the soldiers to his choice of targets. 27 MT. If leveled, Volke could almost match this with a stiletto without promoting (25-26). Heck, endgame, Janaff matches Stiletto-Volke in offensive power when banded. Janaff is useless. Elincia is useful, though limited.

You forgot that he can double ravens, which is very useful indeed, and the fact that he leaves most, if not all enemies, in single digit HP isn't exactly bad now is it? Especially when you do it for 3 times as long as Elincia exists.

Janaff fails to kill basic units even when unbanded.

Elincia fails at everything. If 27 Atk is terrible for chapter 18, 20 atk is downright unusable in chapter 26.

That's not 'just' low. The only endgame units he kills is the sage and bishop. He actually deals single-digit damage to the knights and dragons. I'm pretty sure that there are units who can hit his endgame STR by chapter 18. In fact, Kieran can hit his endgame STR as soon as he promotes with a forged steel/silver, and I'm sure others won't be far behind.

The endgame knights and dragons which noone ORKO's anyway, Elincia tinks, and probably won't be fought because of Ashnard.

Almost any unit can handle the 'kill soft targets'. Even Elincia can handle it with one or two level-ups thanks to Amiti. Except Elincia can also add in the fact that she is healing for several chapters, which is useful no matter what, while Janaff does nothing useful.

Except healing isn't useful no matter what when noone can possibly die unless the player purposefully lets them by having them all rescue scrub units and fight with 1 mt iron forges. Janaff kills soft enemies and allows others to pass quicker for 4 times as long. And that's what wins it for him.

I could not find a video of chapter 19 being beaten in 2 turns (and don't think it is even possible to reach Homasa on turn 2 without being forced to go down the center or very close to Naesala). I would want to see proof both of this, and that this isn't a speedrun specific strategy.

Use any 9 mov unit and reyson. Job done.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24203&view=findpost&p=1413265

[Anouleth]

Chapter 24. Sniper has 22 AT with a Steel bow. 31 with effective bonus. Assuming Jill is 20/10 at this point, she has 20 DEF. 23-24 with supports (which require Lethe and that Mist be in range). Jill has 42 HP. Without support bonuses, she takes 11 damage, putting her at 31 HP. Not a lethal bow in of itself, but combined with smaller nicks from throughout the level, and a quarter of HP in a single hit is a bigger threat. Especially for Marcia and Tanith as well who are weaker than Jill. Marcia has only 16 Defense and 37 HP. A hit from this sniper deals 15 damage dropping her down to 22 HP. Even assuming that they are topped off, this is a lot of damage from one single hit and there are additional enemies incoming. I would say there is defiantly significant enough risk to fliers to make Janaff's taking the FG a big downside.

For a start, I would highly recommend giving Marcia a Seraph Robe. But you're probably right that Janaff doesn't really make enough use of the Full Guard.

Okay. He's a poor choice with the band due to his gauge and he's a poor choice without the band due to his low MT. AKA: Sucking.

Right, but it's questionable if he even needs the band in the first place.

I won't argue for or against or anything. However, if Mordi cannot get 18 level-ups in 15+ chapters, then this will reflect upon the other units as well. Janaff will have 30 MT at endgame (His MT at level 15, instead of 20) for starters.

Mordecai has the minor disadvantage of spending the first four turns of every chapter doing fuck all.

Defense +3, RES +3. Without even doing anything, that's pretty useful. I will grant, it will take some work to get Elincia able to kill things with it (put lightly), in the event you do, it's useful for killing softies to say the least.

Sure, it makes Eli

Because Elincia won't get any level ups, no Bexp, or anything of the sort. Right?

Yes, exactly. Elincia is a HEALER. Thus, she levels like a glacier. And any BEXP we give her might as well be flushed down the toilet.

I suppose if we're already throwing every Arms Scroll in the game at Elincia just so she can match Lucia's magic sword combat. Why not throw BEXP at her as well? Even if we do give all this completely undeserved crap to her, all she has is a slight lead over Lucia in magic (Lucia still demolishes her in speed and has crit).

If Physic staves was really that big an issue, people would be drooling over Rhys. Everyone adores Mist because her movement allows her to use normal staves on people.

Sure, but she also has enough physic range that she can heal people no matter where she is on the map and heal them for a solid amount. Rhys' Physic range is generally overkill and he has to use them almost constantly because he can't keep up. Mist can keep up AND she can use Physic effectively.

Since Elincia can do that without worrying about terrain mucking her up, she will do it better.

Terrain hardly exists in Elincia's chapters aside from the fountain in Final (which isn't really a big deal to be able to fly over anyway, unless you're using Rescue staff for a fast completion).

Elincia is still useful however. In chapter 18, assuming Janaff is level 10 and unbanded, he will have 27 MT. He deals 24 damage to the 31 HP'ed wyverns, 32 to the 33 HP'ed soldiers, kills the archer, 34 to the 40 HP'ed warrior, kills the mages, 20 damage to the 32 HP'ed knight, 26 to the 34 HP'ed sword knights, and so forth. Even if he is a level or two higher, that only adds the soldiers to his choice of targets. 27 MT. If leveled, Volke could almost match this with a stiletto without promoting (25-26). Heck, endgame, Janaff matches Stiletto-Volke in offensive power when banded. Janaff is useless. Elincia is useful, though limited.

Yet Volke will not fly, nor do we have a Stiletto, nor is it worth levelling a character as poor as Volke just so we can get an inferior Janaff when Janaff is not particularly good himself.

Janaff fails to kill basic units even when unbanded.

Elincia fails even to exist.

That's not 'just' low. The only endgame units he kills is the sage and bishop. He actually deals single-digit damage to the knights and dragons. I'm pretty sure that there are units who can hit his endgame STR by chapter 18. In fact, Kieran can hit his endgame STR as soon as he promotes with a forged steel/silver, and I'm sure others won't be far behind.

And that's why Kieran is in Top Tier and Janaff is in Lower Mid.

Almost any unit can handle the 'kill soft targets'. Even Elincia can handle it with one or two level-ups thanks to Amiti. Except Elincia can also add in the fact that she is healing for several chapters, which is useful no matter what, while Janaff does nothing useful.

If you're willing to define combat as not useful and healing as automatically useful, then yes.

I could not find a video of chapter 19 being beaten in 2 turns (and don't think it is even possible to reach Homasa on turn 2 without being forced to go down the center or very close to Naesala). I would want to see proof both of this, and

I don't think I do need to show you proof. I have played the chapter and done this before. You can go and play it yourself if you want to see proof.

that this isn't a speedrun specific strategy.

Because you largely only need a base level Tanith and Reyson (possibly with Boots), almost anyone can replicate this strategy (unlike with other low turn strategies like Chapter 12 or Chapter 15 or Chapter 17-4, which require a good Marcia or Jill).

[Snowy_One]

You may be overestimating the value of lategame healing. Healing is not useful no matter what, if no one is in danger of dying no one needs to be healed. Elincia is hardly our only healer available either, we probably have one or two other staff users that have some advantages over her (better supports, better offense etc). Being a third-rate healer for three chapters when there generally isn't much healing to be done isn't particularly impressive.

Using a vulnerary, however, costs us a turn. Likewise with a stave. Even if you have both Mist, Rhys, and two sages, having Elincia allows you to either free up one of those units to heal/attack or to polish off a unit who has taken damage but isn't in threat range. Not only is this lacking a negative impact (unless your team is pretty large beforehand), but it has a pretty strong positive too in that you are getting units healed up. Plus, I suppose you can have her use a special staff or two. Even if Reyson is refreshing the healers, having an additional healer frees up that refresh to go to an attacker; at least in theory. It may not be a huge boost, granted, but it is still there.

That being said, I'm not sure on Tauroneo's usefulness. There was some talk of Rescue dropping him on the top level of C25 to activate Resolve, though I'm not sure whether this is actually more efficient than just having the flier kill enemies themselves. I personally find it hard to get Tauroneo into Resolve range, with his Mov he just doesn't face enough enemies to take enough damage. Without Resolve, his damage output is not so good due to not being able to double much of anything (Braves allieviate this somewhat).

Tauro's big problem is that there are other units who do his job better who aren't even in his class and have better offenses/movement to boot. Within his class, both Brom and Gatrie beat him without even taking join time into consideration just due to their ability to make use of the KW. If Tauro didn't have resolve, he would likely be the worst unit in the game or pretty damned close to it. Elincia may have little use, but little use > none at all.

For starters, we could target snipers on the player phase. Next, you so conveniently chose the strongest sniper on the map to make your point.

You also completely disregarded hit rates. Jill has ~53 avo banded and unsupported. That means enemies have ~50 hit on her. And also, with that def, still unsupported, quite a few enemies tink her. Add supports in and even more tink her and they struggle further to hit her. Marcia could have 79 avo supported, assuming we give Kieran's 'A' to Oscar. 81 with 'A' Kieran. Now she faces, like, ~30 displayed hit. And we're still worrying about her getting hit enough that she can't simply vulnerary herself back to full HP?

And also, 20/10 may not even be a generous level for them. It's less than a level per chapter if they promote at chapter 16, and I see no reason for them to not get more than that.

The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit. Jill, the tankiest flier, takes what is basically a quarter of her health bar in a single hit if she does get hit. I'm not arguing that Jill should move up or down, but that Janaff won't be getting the FG because every other flier wants and makes good use of it as well.

Except Elincia is even worse.

Elincia takes no resources to preform the same function as Mist with normal staves. While she may not have as much physic stave range, she can also fly over terrain to move into range to help counter-balance. Granted, Mist's physic range is superior, but that's not to say that Elincia doesn't have range either. Janaff is pretty useless even when he joins and only gets worse as chapters progress. Exp is, almost literally, wasted on him. At least Elincia doesn't do that thanks to staves.

Note that the exp gain they both receive for the same chapters is not equal. Aka, Mordy gets like 1 exp per kill, whereas Janaff gets ~10.

And when Janaff joins, how much exp will Mordi be getting per kill. Hmm?

Janaff can kill softies and does it for like, 5 chapters more than Elincia and probably with less resources.

Elincia needs just a mend staff to get to healing. To get to fighting softies she needs 2 levels on average for reliable killing with Amiti. Ignoring that she can get EXP from mopping up (yes, it may be favoritism and all, but it still is a source of EXP), 2 levels is NOT bank-breaking. Janaff needs multiple levels (and his levels are more costly too. Ouch) to keep competitive for those five chapters. Besides, anyone can kill softies. There are much better choices than a hawk who will be useless in a few chapters.

Except there's very little terrain mucking her up, and people don't drool over Rhys because he doesn't have awesome supports or can be decent at combat or have any durability so to speak. Not because he needs physics staves.

So things like bushes, rivers, gardens, trees, and the like don't exist? And Mist has poor supports (I despise Mordi with a passion and firmly believe Mist and Jill will rarely be in range of each other), her combat is questionable (she needs both arms scrolls for a net total of kills that is laughable without the Hammerine), and her durability is irrelevant (Not only am I going to turn your question of 'why can't I just kill on the player phase' back on you, but healers have physic staves and will never be on the front lines anyways. Why does durability matter?). The only reason she is ranked high is because cruddy tier standards require that the player is a lobotomized chimp that can't protect his healers, invests multiple resources into something that is trivial overall (seriously. Mist gets 12 kills with the SS if she doesn't get the Hammerine. Mia may have lower magic, but with Wrath she can net more kills and only needs the mage band uniquely to pull it off), but somehow manages to keep a flier and a land unit together while activally seeking to get the lowest turn count for 'efficiency' which is different from actual efficiency and shows it by ranking a flier who sucks EXP for a degree of combat beaten by a thief higher than a 0-cost healer and is instead a thinly veiled speed run.

You forgot that he can double ravens, which is very useful indeed, and the fact that he leaves most, if not all enemies, in single digit HP isn't exactly bad now is it? Especially when you do it for 3 times as long as Elincia exists.

Doubling Ravens past chapter 17 is not exactly noteworthy. I have swordmasters who may be fast enough (not to mention critical) and Astrid/Boyd may be able to pop one in the eye hard enough to make doubling useless. And Janaff also uses how much EXP to do this job? Elincia can just heal and be useful. Janaff NEEDS those kills to prolong his limited use fullness, and then he becomes useless again. Heck. I would even say Tauro is more useful than Janaff just because Tauro's defense means he can function as a barrier or something and, on the off chance he resolves, he will kill things. Janaff does what other units already did, will be dropped, and doesn't even offer a utility in return.

Elincia fails at everything. If 27 Atk is terrible for chapter 18, 20 atk is downright unusable in chapter 26.

Problem 1: Elincia has a brave effect as long as she wielded Amiti. Janaff does not.

Problem 2: Elincia can heal. Janaff can not.

Problem 3: Elincia can grow. Janaff caps out at 30/33 attack without a brave effect.

The endgame knights and dragons which noone ORKO's anyway, Elincia tinks, and probably won't be fought because of Ashnard.

Thunder sages can kill them with a critical (which they have some of thanks to thunder), and I'm sure plenty of other units get at least into 2RKO range. Single-digit damage is just pitiful against them, especially for a combat-only unit.

Right, but it's questionable if he even needs the band in the first place.

I would say Janaff isn't getting either band or guard 95% of the time. Better units make better use out of both. Mordi and Muarim for the band, Marcia, Tanith, and Jill for the guard at the least.

Mordecai has the minor disadvantage of spending the first four turns of every chapter doing fuck all.

Why hello there Mr. Demiband!

Yes, exactly. Elincia is a HEALER. Thus, she levels like a glacier. And any BEXP we give her might as well be flushed down the toilet.

22 EXP per physic use. 33 for each non-heal. Heaven-forbid she uses something big. Besides, if what Keven up there is saying is true and squishy-healing is really that useful, useful enough to make Janaff better than Elincia, then I'm sure we can spare the EXP needed to level Elincia up just twice (which won't be that much, considering staves) so she can kill squishies semi-reliably.

Mist can keep up AND she can use Physic effectively.

While as a point, I might consider this, almost every debate involving Mist v Rhys that I've seen has been praising Mist for her ability to not need physics and perform her job with heal/mend. Your point is well-made, but I am hesitant to accept it.

Yet Volke will not fly, nor do we have a Stiletto, nor is it worth levelling a character as poor as Volke just so we can get an inferior Janaff when Janaff is not particularly good himself.

1) Volke is not inferior to Janaff. He may not fly and may be more frail, but he has utility, effective bonus, and a master skill that isn't worthless (still probably not worth losing a Sol over, but not worthless either).

2) The point I am trying to make is that Janaff's offense is matched by a character whom I'm sure most people don't want to level because, even if leveled, he's still too weak to be put into combat.

And that's why Kieran is in Top Tier and Janaff is in Lower Mid.

The fact that any unit, regardless of tier placement, can hit what Janaff can pump out at his best at the games half-way point is sad. Given 1-2 more chapters and I'm sure well over half the list will potentially tie with Janaff's level 20 MT or be so close and have other forms of utility to offer that it's not even laughable.

If you're willing to define combat as not useful and healing as automatically useful, then yes.

Only Soren, Ilyana, Tormod, Rhys, Mist, and Elincia can heal other units in the game (Reyson too if you count his passive healing). The entire rest of the tier list (except for Volke and Sothe) is made up of units whose main, if not only, point is combat. Of the healers, Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod both start out as fighters and are fully capable of being fighters at a moments notice. Janaff's ability to kill squishies is not important. Literally, almost any other unit can do that. Elincia's ability to heal others is.

Because you largely only need a base level Tanith and Reyson (possibly with Boots), almost anyone can replicate this strategy (unlike with other low turn strategies like Chapter 12 or Chapter 15 or Chapter 17-4, which require a good Marcia or Jill).

1) I am more than willing to wager that the majority of people did not do this. In fact, I can tell you just from the sheer number of 'Help me; Naesala keeps killing me' or 'How do I beat 19 without killing ravens' topics back in the day on Gamefaqs that a VERY large amount of people don't.

2) And what if you get the Ring?

3) Even if you could clear the chapter in -1 turns (impossible) why does this matter? It is TANITH who is clearing it (or Marcia/Jill), NOT Janaff! Janaff has no bearing on how fast you cleared it. It would seem much more fruitful to point out that, even if Janaff does untransform, you will be close to beating the boss anyways so you only have to deal with him being unshifted for a turn or two or something like that.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Snowy_One

[RNG Princess]

How would other mages reach C staves don't they get E in staves? IIRC ams scroll can't be used on staves.

[Colonel M]

Since they can't equip Staves, no they can't use Arms Scroll.

[Florete]

So things like bushes, rivers, gardens, trees, and the like don't exist?

Look at Elincia's freakin' maps. 26 is a beeline to the boss and Seize square completely clear of terrain, 27 is inside a damn castle, and the Final (she's not deployable in 28) is probably too fast her it to matter that she can fly over the fountain and hedges. And it probably wouldn't matter anyway.

Give it up, Snowy. This debate is pitiful. Arguing that Elincia can free up one of your 3 healers for a turn this late in FE9 is sheer desperation.

[Kaoz]

1-2 range, no gauge to deal with, better supports (than Lethe anyway), significantly better lategame combat.

That being said, Nephenee is a bit of a slow starter and the laguz always have Mov on her, so I could see one or both of them above her.

I have to concede the 1-2 range, but gauge shouldn't be that much of an issue (Lethe stays transformed from turn 1 until we beat the map most of the time, Mordecai has great utility in Smite and doesn't need to be transformed), Lethe's combat is decent enough without supports (she ORKOs most of the generic enemies in her earlier chapters iirc) and while Nephenee's lategame potential is superior, chances are we have a good number of high move units by that time, so it's questionable whether she can even keep up on some of the later maps.