FE9 Tier list v3

[Zkirsche]

My point was that we should only field Ranulf if we are't using Muarim, as that is the only real effective way of using him.

[-Cynthia-]

Ranulf denying the use of other laguz as opposed the Geoffrey taking relatively few resources (cheap BEXP due to Paragon) seems a pretty big difference to me.

I was considering Taur vs. Largo and Taur might be the winner...but should he leapfrog Ranulf or should Largo go below?

[Fayt Zelpher]

I was considering Taur vs. Largo and Taur might be the winner...but should he leapfrog Ranulf or should Largo go below?

I would say he jumps Ranulf. Personally, I think it's Taur > Ranulf > Largo, but I don't have time to delve into the statistics and my memory is far from infallible. T gives a fairly strong unit that has the uber-powered Resolve skill, and can take the KW (a low valued resourse) to give him a bit of extra speed.

Ranulf is fairly average offensively for when he joins, and either has to eat stones from Reyson, or suffer lots of downtime. Being a T4 transformer hurts his cause too.

[Snowy_One]

No, the list is more like:

Boyd

Soren

Ilyana

Mordecai (if you like to waste your stat boosters)

Jill

Tormod (varies depending on how much BEXP we pour down his throat)

Devdan

Muarim

Calill

Haar

Largo

At least, these are all the people that could benefit from a Wing. They all barely reach the 23-25AS you need to double enemies reliably in lategame (only a couple of Ravens and Dragons hit the 22AS mark), and can easily be screwed out of doubling even weaker enemies if they're unlucky. Personally, I think the first speedwing you should get should absolutely go to Boyd, if you're using him. Barring freak rng-blessage, he wants it. The second could similiarly go to Jill, but I would reserve judgment for after giving her a pile of BEXP. If her speed goes well, hold back and pick someone else on this list to play God with, if she's on or below her average, Wing her.

On average, most of these units will double though. Even holding it in reserve, by chapter 25 it's kind of set. Besides. You were suggesting that we give the speedwing to Tauro. This means we are at least holding on to it till he joins. This means that 1) Most units will be speed-set (sure, there's still time to grow, but more often than not it's going to need a sever failing/success to work out any problems) 2) Tauro has to run the same gauntlet to get it for his one chapter, same as Brom.

I wouldn't give it to Mordi either, since he doesn't age well. Even with the Wing, he really doesn't double enough in lategame.

I was thinking more of 'not every player wants to put up with Laguz' but sure.

And this is the thing - by giving the Wing to Brom, we won't see a benefit out of it for a long time. Depending on how aggressive your playstyle is, possibly never. So given that we're going to discuss such a stupid move, we may as well discuss giving the Wing to Tauroneo, another case where we won't see a benefit out of it for a long time.

Except we kind of do see the benefit right away. Right after Brom joins, chapter 11 has multiple paths and clearing all of them is difficult for your units to do and you get decent enough rewards for it (send Brom on the lowest street). 12 is a defend chapter on a ship, 13 is more of the same with the added benefit of the gangplanks being perfect for him, and 14 is... weird to say the least. He will likely have use here, but that is weird at best. I would think it difficult to get into a position where Brom won't be useful immediately (especially with the speedwing).

I assumed four regular levels and two levels with the KW. I highly doubt Brom is going to gain many levels in the desert or in the boss rush in Chapter 14. I suppose BEXP exists.

Hmmm... Actually, I'm not so sure. Jill and Marcia are your only fliers in the desert and Soren and Ilyana are your only sages at this point. Broms movement may be abyssal, but so is most people. Granted, Mordi and Lethe rock here, as does Neph, Boyd, and Ike. Still... What exactly is the general's movement in this chapter (I personally hate them and don't use the ever)? If it's at least 3, he may have use.

I'm not psychic, although I am flattered by the implication that I can predict exactly how every character in every single playthrough is going to end up.

And there are many characters that are fairly borderline with their speed. Boyd, Muarim, all Sages (double for Ilyana, triple for Bastian), even Jill.

You don't have to be psychic. Just not an idiot. On average, units will get their average speed. Won't always be perfect, and I doubt it will be all on the same playthrough, but on average that is what their speed will be. So usually, though they may be close, most of the units won't need the wings. Sometimes they may be below, and sometimes above, but usually they won't.

Sides, I don't think Sage Speed is so important post-level when they get staves. If they can't kill, they can switch to healing.

I don't see how that analogy works, since Janaff doesn't want the Demi Band since it hurts his already bad stats and he transforms on turn one anyway.

And Devdan sucks barring a mass resource dump. His average endgame speed is 18.6. It would take two speedwings to make his speed acceptable or six to seven of his limited level-ups (almost half) with the KW to make him acceptable with speed (in addition to the speedwing). Even then, the only thing he has over a swordmaster is defense and 1-2 range, and a SM like Zihark cost nothing and can be rather brutal with the right supports and skills (Devdan is not). Heck, Devdan's endgame speed is only two more than Brom's, and Brom can use the KW much more and has offensive and defensive stats that blow Devdan out of the water (not to mention some WTA control due to swords).

I would rather waste the KW and boots (an speedwings if needed) on Brom than the speedwing(s) and KW on Devdan or Tauro simply due to the higher payoff of having an acceptable stat-beast for most of the game.

Well, if Ilyana could actually rock Dragons, that might be a good analogy. But the way I see it, Tauroneo is helping us with a problem, and can go ahead and help us in other chapters too like Chapter 28 where he can be airlifted over the trees. What's funny is that he actually doubles and 2HKOes the Dragons with a Laguz Lance. It's not quite so great as Chapter 25, because by this point we have another Resolve and somebody else can do it, but Tauroneo can actually take a hit from a Dragon while in Resolve territory, which most other units can't do, and he comes with his own.

By chapter 28 we have access to Resolve. Any non-sage we give it to should be able to clear the dragons out with ease one they take enough damage (vantage may be needed, but still). Besides, Brom can do the same thing. He needs the Resolve, which MAY add a turn against Ashnard (I can't remember if it was Resolve or Ena/Nasir that was determined to be inefficient to use against him), but it's still better than giving Tauro a wing for one chapter. Besides, even if we assume he clears the dragons out, isn't 28 a seize chapter? It won't be finished until Ike gets there anyways, so why bother clearing them out beforehand?

[Anouleth]

On average, most of these units will double though. Even holding it in reserve, by chapter 25 it's kind of set. Besides. You were suggesting that we give the speedwing to Tauro. This means we are at least holding on to it till he joins. This means that 1) Most units will be speed-set (sure, there's still time to grow, but more often than not it's going to need a sever failing/success to work out any problems) 2) Tauro has to run the same gauntlet to get it for his one chapter, same as Brom.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'speed-set'. If a person is screwed, and if you're using around 8 units, it is likely that one of them is screwed, give it to them.

I was thinking more of 'not every player wants to put up with Laguz' but sure.

I was thinking 'not every player wants to put up with Mordecai in lategame'.

Except we kind of do see the benefit right away. Right after Brom joins, chapter 11 has multiple paths and clearing all of them is difficult for your units to do and you get decent enough rewards for it (send Brom on the lowest street). 12 is a defend chapter on a ship, 13 is more of the same with the added benefit of the gangplanks being perfect for him, and 14 is... weird to say the least. He will likely have use here, but that is weird at best. I would think it difficult to get into a position where Brom won't be useful immediately (especially with the speedwing).

I admit that I found Brom quite useful in Chapter 11 since he could just take the south path unequipped and get the village, but he didn't need a Wing. Chapter 12 is lol, since every enemy you fight is a Raven, and you'd need to promote Brom just for him to avoid getting doubled with the speedwing. 13 is decent enough for him, since you can have a Paladin drop him on the front lines fairly easily, but he sucks anyway. Assuming we give him a Wing and he's level 12, he doubles one extra archer and one extra fighter.

Plus, there are two speedwings, one from Chapter 2 and one from Chapter 13. We are unlikely to sit on a Speedwing for 8 chapters just so Brom can continue to fail to double anything in Chapter 11 and 12. He can take the Chapter 13 one.

Hmmm... Actually, I'm not so sure. Jill and Marcia are your only fliers in the desert and Soren and Ilyana are your only sages at this point. Broms movement may be abyssal, but so is most people. Granted, Mordi and Lethe rock here, as does Neph, Boyd, and Ike. Still... What exactly is the general's movement in this chapter (I personally hate them and don't use the ever)? If it's at least 3, he may have use.

He has one move if he isn't promoted. Most units have three move.

You don't have to be psychic. Just not an idiot. On average, units will get their average speed. Won't always be perfect, and I doubt it will be all on the same playthrough, but on average that is what their speed will be. So usually, though they may be close, most of the units won't need the wings. Sometimes they may be below, and sometimes above, but usually they won't.

I don't have Maple, so I can't crunch the numbers right now and tell you exactly what everyone's chance of having stat x at level y is, but generally it's higher than you'd expect. The chance of a unit being precisely on their average is pretty low.

Sides, I don't think Sage Speed is so important post-level when they get staves. If they can't kill, they can switch to healing.

We already have one healer, which is more than enough for a team, I think.

And Devdan sucks barring a mass resource dump. His average endgame speed is 18.6. It would take two speedwings to make his speed acceptable or six to seven of his limited level-ups (almost half) with the KW to make him acceptable with speed (in addition to the speedwing). Even then, the only thing he has over a swordmaster is defense and 1-2 range, and a SM like Zihark cost nothing and can be rather brutal with the right supports and skills (Devdan is not). Heck, Devdan's endgame speed is only two more than Brom's, and Brom can use the KW much more and has offensive and defensive stats that blow Devdan out of the water (not to mention some WTA control due to swords).

What's problematic with giving him KW level-ups? Given that Brom needs to practically staple the KW to his forehead for his entire career to do anything, a meagre six or seven levels with it (and we can probably slowplay him anyway) seems practically easy.

And I am not saying that Devdan is better than Zihark or another swordmaster, or even Brom for that matter. Just that yes, he is a Speedwing canditate and Brom should deal with the fact that the resources he wants could go elsewhere for similiar effect.

I would rather waste the KW and boots (an speedwings if needed) on Brom than the speedwing(s) and KW on Devdan or Tauro simply due to the higher payoff of having an acceptable stat-beast for most of the game.

This whole bullshit started because you threw out the stupid idea of giving a speedwing to Brom, but I'm not even going to address you thinking the Boots could go to Brom.

By chapter 28 we have access to Resolve. Any non-sage we give it to should be able to clear the dragons out with ease one they take enough damage (vantage may be needed, but still). Besides, Brom can do the same thing. He needs the Resolve, which MAY add a turn against Ashnard (I can't remember if it was Resolve or Ena/Nasir that was determined to be inefficient to use against him), but it's still better than giving Tauro a wing for one chapter. Besides, even if we assume he clears the dragons out, isn't 28 a seize chapter? It won't be finished until Ike gets there anyways, so why bother clearing them out beforehand?

I already mentioned that other people can use Resolve, but Tauroneo's advantage is:

-He doesn't need to take Resolve from someone else, his is free

-He can take a hit from a Dragon in Resolve territory

-He 2HKOes with a Laguz Lance (some people won't 2HKO)

And Tauroneo doesn't necessarily need a Speedwing. He can get 14->21AS pretty easily, which gets the weaker Dragons, and if he's lucky with the KW he can scrape 16->24AS which gets the other dragons. And it's not for one chapter either since he can make use of the Wing in Chapter 25 too.

Ike can be dropped over the trees with Tauroneo. In fact, he's probably the best person to give Resolve to since he can use it to 2RKO Ashnard.

[Snowy_One]

I don't really understand what you mean by 'speed-set'. If a person is screwed, and if you're using around 8 units, it is likely that one of them is screwed, give it to them.

Basically, being 'speed-set' or any set means that, barring unusual conditions, you are unlikely to be screwed/blessed in a stat (anymore than you already are at least) until the end of the game. Usually happens when there are only a few chapters left or a character is super-close to reaching their end-level.

Also, it is in no way guarenteed that those 8 units are screwed (rather, screwed enough to be considered screwed. A SM lacking in SPD by two points is pretty meaningless overall for example, despite being screwed. Conversely, a unit used for utility like Volke, Reyson, or Rhys has no real purpose for speed since they won't likely be in combat). Much less that the unit that is screwed is one on which the screwage will matter, or make them unable to double.

I admit that I found Brom quite useful in Chapter 11 since he could just take the south path unequipped and get the village, but he didn't need a Wing. Chapter 12 is lol, since every enemy you fight is a Raven, and you'd need to promote Brom just for him to avoid getting doubled with the speedwing. 13 is decent enough for him, since you can have a Paladin drop him on the front lines fairly easily, but he sucks anyway. Assuming we give him a Wing and he's level 12, he doubles one extra archer and one extra fighter.

In chapter 12 he also is the closest thing we have to a constant tank that can actually stand up to the ravens battering bar Titania and maybe the laguz (their transform is a issue here due to constant fighting). I would much rather Brom be hit on the enemy phase than any other unit. Titania may kill them, and they are good EXP, but they aren't weaklings.

I don't even really care how much extra he doubles. He is getting immediate use, which is what I was countering in the first place.

Plus, there are two speedwings, one from Chapter 2 and one from Chapter 13. We are unlikely to sit on a Speedwing for 8 chapters just so Brom can continue to fail to double anything in Chapter 11 and 12. He can take the Chapter 13 one.

Okay. Fair enough. Now apply it to Tauro. We're unlikely to save a wing for 8+ chapters so that he can continue to fail doubling.

I don't have Maple, so I can't crunch the numbers right now and tell you exactly what everyone's chance of having stat x at level y is, but generally it's higher than you'd expect. The chance of a unit being precisely on their average is pretty low.

Exact numbers aren't needed in a debate (no not like that). The point is, on most runs, units will average out to their average speed. Sometimes they will be faster and slower, yes. But typically they will be about where their average speed is overall.

We already have one healer, which is more than enough for a team, I think.

Healing allows for free EXP that doesn't have to be taken from the team, in decent quantities if you use a physic stave. If a sage can't kill, they can always heal, making their speed less important.

What's problematic with giving him KW level-ups? Given that Brom needs to practically staple the KW to his forehead for his entire career to do anything, a meagre six or seven levels with it (and we can probably slowplay him anyway) seems practically easy.

It's not that he need's KW level-ups. It's that he needs almost half his levels to be KW level-ups and a speedwing. The KW is too useful to be left behind, so we ARE equipping it to someone no matter what. Devdan either needs to take it for a good hunk of his levels and the payoff is average, or he needs to not fight for at least six of his level-ups once he gets close to dinging so we can go back to the base and Bexp... AND HE'S STILL AVERAGE EVEN THEN! Brom may have low movement, but he's a stat-beast at least once leveled with the KW; hence why giving him the boots isn't a aweful idea.

And I am not saying that Devdan is better than Zihark or another swordmaster, or even Brom for that matter. Just that yes, he is a Speedwing canditate and Brom should deal with the fact that the resources he wants could go elsewhere for similiar effect.

And I am not saying that Devdan is better than Zihark or another swordmaster, or even Brom for that matter. Just that yes, he is a Speedwing canditate and Tauro should deal with the fact that the resources he wants could go elsewhere for better effect.

It isn't similar. Brom taking the wing turns him into a nigh combat juggernaut once he's fast enough to double. Second-highest defense in the game IIRC, powerful attacks, water element, fast enough to double, and so-forth. If they had started him off with 2 more movement and axes instead of lances, he would be high, if not top tier. He comes earlier than Tauro and manages the same feat as Tauro does on this one chapter, while being useful in earlier chapters as well.

Even Devdan is a better investment of the wing than Tauro. Being average beats being mostly useless for 1/2 of the time you're fielded cause you aren't resolved and needing a speedwing to do it.

This whole bullshit started because you threw out the stupid idea of giving a speedwing to Brom, but I'm not even going to address you thinking the Boots could go to Brom.

Actually it started because you decided that Tauro could be dropped up there and should be given a wing for it.

And what's wrong with giving him the boots? He is a stat-beast. His only shortfallings are SPD and MOV. I don't see why he shouldn't get them.

I already mentioned that other people can use Resolve, but Tauroneo's advantage is:

-He doesn't need to take Resolve from someone else, his is free

By chapter 28, it doesn't matter much anymore. Most units either have their skills, or have none and used them for quite a while.

-He can take a hit from a Dragon in Resolve territory

Even if, so what? There are three dragons over there at least, not to mention some tigers. Unless you are having a healer drop over, he won't be able to clear out more than one. Even if healed, he loses resolve. So tough luck Tauro.

-

He 2HKOes with a Laguz Lance (some people won't 2HKO)

Name one resolved lance user who isn't a joke who couldn't?

And Tauroneo doesn't necessarily need a Speedwing. He can get 14->21AS pretty easily, which gets the weaker Dragons, and if he's lucky with the KW he can scrape 16->24AS which gets the other dragons. And it's not for one chapter either since he can make use of the Wing in Chapter 25 too.

So he DOES need the wing then... for two chapters of use which another knight could do as well. Hell, pour the same amount of resources into Gatrie and we could make him good at this pace.

Ike can be dropped over the trees with Tauroneo. In fact, he's probably the best person to give Resolve to since he can use it to 2RKO Ashnard.

He's also probably better to fight the dragons with as well seeing as he doesn't need resolve to double them.

[Anouleth]

Basically, being 'speed-set' or any set means that, barring unusual conditions, you are unlikely to be screwed/blessed in a stat (anymore than you already are at least) until the end of the game. Usually happens when there are only a few chapters left or a character is super-close to reaching their end-level.

Uh, people can be screwed even into midgame.

Are you actually going to show probabilities to back yourself up or just assert that people are going to be on their averages?

Also, it is in no way guarenteed that those 8 units are screwed (rather, screwed enough to be considered screwed. A SM lacking in SPD by two points is pretty meaningless overall for example, despite being screwed. Conversely, a unit used for utility like Volke, Reyson, or Rhys has no real purpose for speed since they won't likely be in combat). Much less that the unit that is screwed is one on which the screwage will matter, or make them unable to double.

Of course it's not guaranteed, but if you have a 20% chance of being significantly screwed then over the course of training many units, you are highly likely to have screwed characters.

In chapter 12 he also is the closest thing we have to a constant tank that can actually stand up to the ravens battering bar Titania and maybe the laguz (their transform is a issue here due to constant fighting). I would much rather Brom be hit on the enemy phase than any other unit. Titania may kill them, and they are good EXP, but they aren't weaklings.

Snowy, what part of this is not getting through to you?

Whether Brom has the Speedwing or not does not make ONE IOTA of difference in Chapter 12. He gets doubled either way. I do not care if he is Jesus Christ incarnate and is soloing the entire map, the Speedwing is doing NOTHING for him. YOU said that the Speedwing was immediately useful. This is obviously wrong.

I don't even really care how much extra he doubles. He is getting immediate use, which is what I was countering in the first place.

Congratulations, you proved that he does indeed get some microscopic use out of the Speedwing. Two enemies in the whole map.

Okay. Fair enough. Now apply it to Tauro. We're unlikely to save a wing for 8+ chapters so that he can continue to fail doubling.

It makes a significant difference since now he doubles damn near everything with the Wing in Resolve mode.

Exact numbers aren't needed in a debate (no not like that). The point is, on most runs, units will average out to their average speed. Sometimes they will be faster and slower, yes. But typically they will be about where their average speed is overall.

Yeah, so within two points. So if you're like Jill or Boyd or Kieran or Soren and you are right on the edge of doubling even when you hit your average exactly, you are at significant risk of being screwed.

Healing allows for free EXP that doesn't have to be taken from the team, in decent quantities if you use a physic stave. If a sage can't kill, they can always heal, making their speed less important.

Free EXP!

*cheers*

Free EXP for healers only!

*crickets*

If a sage has crappy speed and can only heal, they are being useless, even if they are gaining EXP (there is no EXP Rank, remember?), since we already have a better healer. Not only that, they will gain EXP much more slowly than through combat, and they will fall behind other units. Even if the EXP is free, if all they are doing is healing, it's useless since they don't need the stats.

It's not that he need's KW level-ups. It's that he needs almost half his levels to be KW level-ups and a speedwing. The KW is too useful to be left behind, so we ARE equipping it to someone no matter what. Devdan either needs to take it for a good hunk of his levels and the payoff is average, or he needs to not fight for at least six of his level-ups once he gets close to dinging so we can go back to the base and Bexp... AND HE'S STILL AVERAGE EVEN THEN! Brom may have low movement, but he's a stat-beast at least once leveled with the KW; hence why giving him the boots isn't a aweful idea.

So basically, Brom gets KW for many levels, and a Speedwing, and gets to be trained and BEXPed from level 8 to 20/4 even though he's not very good in midgame chapters, and gets the Boots, and this is fine and dandy, but if we give Devdan the KW for a couple of levels and a Speedwing, this is an unacceptable waste of resources even though he has better movement anyway and will generally ORKO just like Brom.

And I am not saying that Devdan is better than Zihark or another swordmaster, or even Brom for that matter. Just that yes, he is a Speedwing canditate and Tauro should deal with the fact that the resources he wants could go elsewhere for better effect.

This statement is totally confusing.

It isn't similar. Brom taking the wing turns him into a nigh combat juggernaut once he's fast enough to double. Second-highest defense in the game IIRC, powerful attacks, water element, fast enough to double, and so-forth. If they had started him off with 2 more movement and axes instead of lances, he would be high, if not top tier. He comes earlier than Tauro and manages the same feat as Tauro does on this one chapter, while being useful in earlier chapters as well.

You are correct, if all of Brom's flaws were removed, he would be good. Sadly, he has flaws, and he is not good.

Even Devdan is a better investment of the wing than Tauro. Being average beats being mostly useless for 1/2 of the time you're fielded cause you aren't resolved and needing a speedwing to do it.

Actually it started because you decided that Tauro could be dropped up there and should be given a wing for it.

In retrospect, it was a mistake to make that suggestion. I suppose it's still possible in theory if everyone is spd-blessed, but generally the benefits of the Wing on Tauroneo outweigh that.

And what's wrong with giving him the boots? He is a stat-beast. His only shortfallings are SPD and MOV. I don't see why he shouldn't get them.

Because Reyson uses them better, end of story. Hell, we have other stat-beasts that could use them. Ike, Boyd, even Nephenee (although that's pushing it a little bit). Fact is, even at capped speed (which he takes ages to get to), Brom still fails to double some shit.

By chapter 28, it doesn't matter much anymore. Most units either have their skills, or have none and used them for quite a while.

So? Two people with Resolve > one person with Resolve, and if we want to use two, we have to use Tauroneo.

Even if, so what? There are three dragons over there at least, not to mention some tigers. Unless you are having a healer drop over, he won't be able to clear out more than one. Even if healed, he loses resolve. So tough luck Tauro.

-

Get healed, then get attacked again and drop down to low life. Simple. The idea is that Tauroneo can be taken down to low life by a Dragon (not hard) and 1-round on the counter-attack. Or he can use Vulneraries to manipulate his HP into a good position.

Name one resolved lance user who isn't a joke who couldn't?

Every Lance user with less than 24 str. So Nephenee, Marcia, Tanith, and possibly Jill.

What's more, Swordmasters can't do it either.

So he DOES need the wing then... for two chapters of use which another knight could do as well. Hell, pour the same amount of resources into Gatrie and we could make him good at this pace.

Well, it partially depends on his luck with his levels. I think that just 1-rounding the slow Dragons is probably enough, and other people can handle the others.

What resources did we give Tauroneo? A Speedwing, maybe 400BEXP, and 4 levels with the Knight Ward. Give that to Gatrie and tell me how he turns out.

He's also probably better to fight the dragons with as well seeing as he doesn't need resolve to double them.

Sure, if he has like, capped speed. Good luck with that? He won't ORKO either. you need 36 strength.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Anouleth

[Zkirsche]

What resources did we give Tauroneo? A Speedwing, maybe 400BEXP, and 4 levels with the Knight Ward. Give that to Gatrie and tell me how he turns out.

It gives us a character to use for the majority of the game.

[alfredo094]

If it has been asked before, sorry. 85 pages is too much.

...Why is Jill on top of top? And why is Kieran above Oscar?

[Zkirsche]

If it has been asked before, sorry. 85 pages is too much.

I would suggest teh search function, but this topic has mostly been about MIst anyway, so w/e.

...Why is Jill on top of top? And why is Kieran above Oscar?

Jill has flight which is significant enough to counteract Oscars availabiltiy lead, and Oscar is > Kieran atm. If you meant why isn't Kieran > Oscar, then it's the availabiltiy lead (unlike with Jill, tehre's not enough to seperate them).

[Anouleth]

Hmm, I think Kieran could actually go back above Oscar. His offensive advantage in lategame is not inconsiderable, especially when you consider how slowly weapon rank builds, so Oscar will struggle to get to A Axes. Oscar's only advantage is earlygame, but in most chapters, Titania is doing the majority of heavy lifting anyway and he's not significantly helpful.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

What levels have we assumed for O/K in the past? I don't recall any discussion on them in this thread besides the very beginning, and our views on their expected levels may have changed since then, especially since we seem to have adopted a BEXP makes everyone level fast mindset.

[Anouleth]

I would assume levels similiar to the ones in my last playthrough, so promoting around Chapter 16 and being about 20/15 for Endgame... but it also depends on how many people you use. By the end, I was funneling all my exp into just 7 characters and one of them was Astrid.

[Snowy_One]

Uh, people can be screwed even into midgame.

We're talking about chapter 25 here though. The number of level-ups any character can get at this point is pretty limited simply due to the game being almost over. Unless you are bringing up another character from scratch, there is only so much room to grow/fail (and the wing, furthermore, is needed only in events where they fail).

Are you actually going to show probabilities to back yourself up or just assert that people are going to be on their averages?

I am going to assert that, simply be definition of the term 'average' and it's usage that, on average, a unit will have whatever their average stat is.

Of course it's not guaranteed, but if you have a 20% chance of being significantly screwed then over the course of training many units, you are highly likely to have screwed characters.

I have a chance of one character being screwed. Who is to say it will be Jill instead of, say, Zihark? Plus, who is it to say that it will be in a range that can be fixed by the wing (or two of them)?

Snowy, what part of this is not getting through to you?

Whether Brom has the Speedwing or not does not make ONE IOTA of difference in Chapter 12. He gets doubled either way. I do not care if he is Jesus Christ incarnate and is soloing the entire map, the Speedwing is doing NOTHING for him. YOU said that the Speedwing was immediately useful. This is obviously wrong.

I said BROM was immediately useful (and he is). The speedwing is useful too, because it helps out his weak stat of Speed, which Brom lacks. Brom's defense is 13 at base, and has 28 HP. Titania needs to be level 5-6 by this point to match that defense and the strongest Raven deals only 22 attack (Seeker). The average damage is 17, meaning Brom only takes 4 damage from each attack on average. He can take about six attacks before dying, which is well above most other units. Though I do see the point about being doubled, he's still better than others (especially if Jill trades him the Ward). Also, something for you to chew on. Brom has a base speed of 7. With the wing, that is 9. Oscar and Boyd would need to be level 11 to beat base-Brom and Jill ties with this. I will grant that he needs two level-ups to potentially have more (and then it's just a 50/50 chance), but still... It is possible that Boyd or Oscar will only be 1 SPD higher than Brom at this point.

Congratulations, you proved that he does indeed get some microscopic use out of the Speedwing. Two enemies in the whole map.

Microscopic > None, which is how much we are getting out of waiting for Tauro to use it. Not to mention that, once Brom gets the KW (chapter 13), his speed is going to grow a lot faster and the boost from the wing will matter a lot more.

It makes a significant difference since now he doubles damn near everything with the Wing in Resolve mode.

Even assuming Tauro was capable of being Resolved from the get-go of each chapter, he's only around for nine chapters counting his own (where he joins too late to be useful for anything but Ena). He is not resolved all the time, however, and needs to be worn down to have Resolve activate. Three factors come against him here. He has low movement, meaning he won't engage much on either phase in a tier-list based on minimum turn counts. While this can be fixed somewhat with the boots, he now has problem 2. He has high defense and HP. Against a Chapter 22 warrior, he takes at most 6 damage a hit assuming you fight the STRONGEST warrior (whom there is only one of) and you decide to wield a lance against him instead of a sword (which has a WTA against axes) and, of course, that the warrior doesn't choose to shoot you instead (he has a venin bow). This means that Tauro getting resolved will take several turns as well. Thirdly, he will need healing eventually. Units get hit in combat. It is a fact of life. Eventually, unless you plan to keep him out of combat, he will need to be healed. Bye bye Resolve.

Not to mention that by investing the Wing in Brom and giving him the KW, he should be in decent distance of doubling without resolve by the time Tauro joins.

Yeah, so within two points. So if you're like Jill or Boyd or Kieran or Soren and you are right on the edge of doubling even when you hit your average exactly, you are at significant risk of being screwed.

If they hit their average exactly, they are obviously not in danger of being screwed. Having a poor average, maybe, but not screwed.

If a sage has crappy speed and can only heal, they are being useless, even if they are gaining EXP (there is no EXP Rank, remember?), since we already have a better healer. Not only that, they will gain EXP much more slowly than through combat, and they will fall behind other units. Even if the EXP is free, if all they are doing is healing, it's useless since they don't need the stats.

Mmmm... I don't see what is wrong with that unless your team is at the unit maximum (which is not all teams, even on a speed-tier).

So basically, Brom gets KW for many levels, and a Speedwing, and gets to be trained and BEXPed from level 8 to 20/4 even though he's not very good in midgame chapters, and gets the Boots, and this is fine and dandy, but if we give Devdan the KW for a couple of levels and a Speedwing, this is an unacceptable waste of resources even though he has better movement anyway and will generally ORKO just like Brom.

When Devdan can be a stat-beast instead of mediocre with the KW equipped, he can make a push for the KW. As I see it, right now the only unit who even has a claim to the ward beside Brom is Astrid to help her early levels out. The fact is pretty simple though. Brom is a powerhouse. Plain and simple. Devdan is not. He never was, nor never will be. When Devdan joins, his strength is only 14. Mia's at this point is 12-13 and she has supports to fall back on and can even tie him in defense. The only thing he has on Mia is HP and spears. That I would need to invest the KW in Devdan to get a unit that does about as well as Mia overall minus her skills tells me he simply isn't worth it.

Brom, meanwhile, ends the game with 54 HP, 27 STR, and 30 defense. Assuming he had the KW for 15 of his ~30 level-ups possible with the KW along with the speedwing, he has 23 SPD on average, putting him at one less then Boyd and Jill. Technically this means that we could choose to level up Devdan as WELL, if we were willing to dump the Bexp/baby him at that point, as well as give the KW to someone else. If Brom gets the KW for his entire existence (not used until it comes around, then fights entirely with it equipped/Bexped up with it), he gets ~25-26 SPD with it WITHOUT a speedwing. Heck, he could probably end up at level 20/14 and, so long as every level-up came with the KW, he would have 22 SPD and have 24 with a Wing.

Conversely, even if Tauro gets every level-up with the KW, he has about 17.1 SPD at 20/20. Even with two wings, he has only 21 SPD.

Brom can be good without Resolve and manage to get enough speed to double enemies. If he has the KW for the entirety of his existence, he won't even need a wing if he gets to 20/20, and he can still double well at level 20/15 with the aid of a wing. Few units can match his attack, and only Gatrie (who can surpass with supports) and Ena can surpass his defense. The only reason he isn't higher is because he is still costly to perform this. Dropping him up at the top in 25 is superior to Tauro in every way possible, especially considering Tauro needs a wing to be useful, while Brom may not and Brom can be useful in the early and mid game and Tauro is not, and Tauro needs resolve to be useful in any chapter while Brom does not either (In fact, Brom doesn't even have any skills).

This statement is totally confusing.

If you are going to hold Devdan as a speedwing candidate over Brom, then you should be consistent. Devdan is then also a candidate against Tauro.

You are correct, if all of Brom's flaws were removed, he would be good. Sadly, he has flaws, and he is not good.

He is good and his flaws are fixable, just too costly to warrant moving up. At the least, he needs the KW and the boots, which are indeed two valuable resources, as well as likely at least one wing. However, the payback is strong enough to make it a not-negative investment (sinking a bunch of resources into a unit and getting a disproportionately minor return), just one in which the resources have arguably better uses. The boots can be spent on any unit to make them good, the KW is wanted by a lot of people, and the wings are valuable indeed. While investing them on Brom is a viable choice, it is still a load of resources that could have been spent 'better'.

However, it is still better to spend these resources on Brom, then to give one wing to Tauro so he can resolve-kill in chapter 25 seeing as Brom gives a much higher payback.

In retrospect, it was a mistake to make that suggestion. I suppose it's still possible in theory if everyone is spd-blessed, but generally the benefits of the Wing on Tauroneo outweigh that.

Which? Spending the wing on Devdan or Tauro? The first bit leads me to think you are saying that it is still possible to drop Tauro with a wing up-top if no unit needs the wing, but the second suggests you are talking about Devdan.

Because Reyson uses them better, end of story. Hell, we have other stat-beasts that could use them. Ike, Boyd, even Nephenee (although that's pushing it a little bit). Fact is, even at capped speed (which he takes ages to get to), Brom still fails to double some shit.

I disagree on the Reyson bit, mainly because he's too frail to ever be near the front lines and can't move after enchanting (thusly making extra movement go to waste).

As for other stat-beasts, Brom has exactly two problems. Movement and speed. the KW can fix one, and the boots soothe the other. It is a lot of resources, yes, but the payoff is great as well. He won't move anywhere high-up, but there is no denying that if you did choose to invest the KW and boots in him, he is a monster on the battlefield.

So? Two people with Resolve > one person with Resolve, and if we want to use two, we have to use Tauroneo.

We would need to give Tauro either a bunch of set-up kills, or Bexp, and even then he's only useful when it's active. In order to make him good we would need to Bexp abuse his speed up at every level, then sink wings into him. Tauroneo simply is not worth any resources given to him and fails too hard without Resolve on. If he lacked resolve, he would be in bottom, maybe even below Bastion (who can at least be made to double if we sunk both wings into him. Still fails and is sucky, but at least can double).

Get healed, then get attacked again and drop down to low life. Simple. The idea is that Tauroneo can be taken down to low life by a Dragon (not hard) and 1-round on the counter-attack. Or he can use Vulneraries to manipulate his HP into a good position.

Ignoring that this is a lot of careful manipulation to squeeze situational useage out of a unit who sucks no matter what, the weakest dragon has 43 attack. Assuming 20/20, the battle goes like this (assuming Tauro strikes first) Tauro hits the dragon for 42 damage (Laguz lance), dragon has 9 HP left. Dragon hits Tauro for 17 damage. Tauro has 35 HP left (no resolve). Enemy phase. Dragon hits Tauro for 17 damage, Tauro has 18 HP left, Tauro resolves and hits for 46 damage and kills dragon 1.

There are two dragons with this much MT and the others have more. Tauro can not 1HKO them without a critical, so now he needs to use a vulnerary or else he goes into the enemy phase with 1 HP (basically death). This puts him at 28 HP, 2 more than 50% health with Tauro (26)

Enemy phase: Dragon 2 hits for 17 damage. Tauro has 11 HP. Tauro hits for 46 damage, the dragon lives. Player phase, Tauro needs to use a vulnerary or else he will die again. 21 HP. Enemy phase, Dragon attacks again, and Tauro is down to 4 HP. Tauro kills the dragon, but come next player phase he needs the vulnerary again! Now his has 14 HP... and the next dragon deals 19 points of damage.

While it may be feasible, it is dependent on two factors (aside from having a Laguz lance this late in the game), 1 Tauro never being ganged up on by more than one foe at once (as this can easily kill him, especially if two dragons attack, as the stronger ones can 2HKO him on the enemy phase if he attacks, and if a Tiger swipes and flees/dies, it's over for him), 2 Tauro not getting mauled. Without stat-boosters/KW, Tauro has only 15 SPD by this level. Only the two weakest dragons don't double him. The strongest has 21 AS, meaning Tauro is screwed unless he can somehow get 18 AS, three more than his normal average at 20/20. Keep in mind, this is assuming he even gets there by this level (and didn't get screwed. Wanna play 'not assuming the averages'? I can do it to Tauro as well).

Basically, Tauro is a complete waste of space who's only points of useage require resource investment to not even potentially be useful, and simply but, there are better units/methods of doing anything he can do.

[Anouleth]

We're talking about chapter 25 here though. The number of level-ups any character can get at this point is pretty limited simply due to the game being almost over. Unless you are bringing up another character from scratch, there is only so much room to grow/fail (and the wing, furthermore, is needed only in events where they fail).

Right, so the only way to fix a character is to wing them. You can't throw them a band or something and hope they turn around. If a character is failing, you can either Wing them or watch them fail.

I am going to assert that, simply be definition of the term 'average' and it's usage that, on average, a unit will have whatever their average stat is.

Yet there is a probability that they remain on their average, that goes down over time.

I have a chance of one character being screwed. Who is to say it will be Jill instead of, say, Zihark? Plus, who is it to say that it will be in a range that can be fixed by the wing (or two of them)?

It can be Jill, it is possible. The fact that Zihark doesn't care is irrelevant. Him not caring if he gets screwed does not prevent Jill from being screwed.

I said BROM was immediately useful (and he is). The speedwing is useful too, because it helps out his weak stat of Speed, which Brom lacks. Brom's defense is 13 at base, and has 28 HP. Titania needs to be level 5-6 by this point to match that defense and the strongest Raven deals only 22 attack (Seeker). The average damage is 17, meaning Brom only takes 4 damage from each attack on average. He can take about six attacks before dying, which is well above most other units. Though I do see the point about being doubled, he's still better than others (especially if Jill trades him the Ward). Also, something for you to chew on. Brom has a base speed of 7. With the wing, that is 9. Oscar and Boyd would need to be level 11 to beat base-Brom and Jill ties with this. I will grant that he needs two level-ups to potentially have more (and then it's just a 50/50 chance), but still... It is possible that Boyd or Oscar will only be 1 SPD higher than Brom at this point.

And like I said, I do not care if Brom is immediately useful. I do not care if the Wing helps out his Speed, since it is still bad enough that he gets doubled by every Raven with or without the Wing. There is no point, therefore, in giving him a Wing for this chapter, because it does not change his performance. It would be like giving the Speedwing to Stefan, it does nothing.

I had Boyd at level 17.99 going into Chapter 12, and I would expect most players to do better since I was using Titania quite heavily. I would certainly not expect him to still be at level 11.

Microscopic > None, which is how much we are getting out of waiting for Tauro to use it. Not to mention that, once Brom gets the KW (chapter 13), his speed is going to grow a lot faster and the boost from the wing will matter a lot more.

That is true, so pull out some stats and show me just how useful this speed boost is. I mean, he's still horrible for a couple of chapters before the KW kicks in. When does he start doubling?

Even assuming Tauro was capable of being Resolved from the get-go of each chapter, he's only around for nine chapters counting his own (where he joins too late to be useful for anything but Ena). He is not resolved all the time, however, and needs to be worn down to have Resolve activate. Three factors come against him here. He has low movement, meaning he won't engage much on either phase in a tier-list based on minimum turn counts. While this can be fixed somewhat with the boots, he now has problem 2. He has high defense and HP. Against a Chapter 22 warrior, he takes at most 6 damage a hit assuming you fight the STRONGEST warrior (whom there is only one of) and you decide to wield a lance against him instead of a sword (which has a WTA against axes) and, of course, that the warrior doesn't choose to shoot you instead (he has a venin bow). This means that Tauro getting resolved will take several turns as well. Thirdly, he will need healing eventually. Units get hit in combat. It is a fact of life. Eventually, unless you plan to keep him out of combat, he will need to be healed. Bye bye Resolve.

Tauroneo doesn't need to use Resolve in Chapter 22, which is very easy to beat since you can just use Siege tomes on Schaeffer. Nor does he want to make use of Resolve in Chapter 23, since neither he nor Brom can keep up with the fliers and will probably just eat the reinforcements. Nor does it matter in Chapter 24 (which is a very easy Arrive chapter) or Chapter 26 (again, movement issues) or Final (since Ike is doing the heavy lifting). The only times it is relevant are in Chapter 25 and Chapter 28, but these are also the hardest two chapters left in the game due to being terrain-heavy and laguz-heavy respectively.

Not to mention that by investing the Wing in Brom and giving him the KW, he should be in decent distance of doubling without resolve by the time Tauro joins.

He probably is, but there are some things that Brom will never double, like Swordmasters and Laguz and even some Endgame Paladins. Tauroneo can double all of those with Resolve + Wing, and he can even OHKO certain enemies with powerful weapons.

If they hit their average exactly, they are obviously not in danger of being screwed. Having a poor average, maybe, but not screwed.

The chance of someone hitting their average exactly is actually quite low. Again, I can't give any examples since I don't have Maple to do the work for me, but as time goes on the chance decreases.

Mmmm... I don't see what is wrong with that unless your team is at the unit maximum (which is not all teams, even on a speed-tier).

My point is that it is far easier to just Wing a Sage and get them back up to par rather than just ditch them and waste all the EXP you invested into them.

When Devdan can be a stat-beast instead of mediocre with the KW equipped, he can make a push for the KW. As I see it, right now the only unit who even has a claim to the ward beside Brom is Astrid to help her early levels out.

wat

Everyone wants the Knight Ward, at least a little bit. Kieran in particular, but also Astrid, Oscar, Titania and Makalov. Makalov has a shaky start, Titania has a shaky end, Oscar wants to double stuff like Laguz and Swordmasters, Kieran definitely has speed issues. And there's Devdan and Gatrie. What's with this love for Brom?

The fact is pretty simple though. Brom is a powerhouse. Plain and simple. Devdan is not. He never was, nor never will be. When Devdan joins, his strength is only 14. Mia's at this point is 12-13 and she has supports to fall back on and can even tie him in defense. The only thing he has on Mia is HP and spears. That I would need to invest the KW in Devdan to get a unit that does about as well as Mia overall minus her skills tells me he simply isn't worth it.

Worth what? 7 or 8 KW levels? Given that just a paragraph down, you handwave giving Brom 15 KW levels, as well as whatever amount of EXP you need to gain 30 levels when you move like a glacier to begin with, 7 or 8 KW levels seems like a pittance.

Brom, meanwhile, ends the game with 54 HP, 27 STR, and 30 defense. Assuming he had the KW for 15 of his ~30 level-ups possible with the KW along with the speedwing, he has 23 SPD on average, putting him at one less then Boyd and Jill. Technically this means that we could choose to level up Devdan as WELL, if we were willing to dump the Bexp/baby him at that point, as well as give the KW to someone else. If Brom gets the KW for his entire existence (not used until it comes around, then fights entirely with it equipped/Bexped up with it), he gets ~25-26 SPD with it WITHOUT a speedwing. Heck, he could probably end up at level 20/14 and, so long as every level-up came with the KW, he would have 22 SPD and have 24 with a Wing.

Unless you are Marcia, Titania, Geoffrey, or Astrid, you do not reach level 20/20. Hell, even those characters might not get there.

I would totally love to see a 25AS Brom, by the way. That just about matches base Tauroneo with the Wing + Resolve + 2 levels w/KW, except we didn't need to train Tauroneo 30 levels and give him exclusive Knight Ward access. Oh, and with Tauroneo, it's actually physically impossible, while Brom's speed is capped at 24, which fails to double faster enemies.

And 22AS is pretty bad too, incidentally. That's why Tauroneo wants the Wing in the first place.

Conversely, even if Tauro gets every level-up with the KW, he has about 17.1 SPD at 20/20. Even with two wings, he has only 21 SPD.

blah blah blah, Resolve.

Brom can be good without Resolve and manage to get enough speed to double enemies. If he has the KW for the entirety of his existence, he won't even need a wing if he gets to 20/20, and he can still double well at level 20/15 with the aid of a wing. Few units can match his attack, and only Gatrie (who can surpass with supports) and Ena can surpass his defense. The only reason he isn't higher is because he is still costly to perform this. Dropping him up at the top in 25 is superior to Tauro in every way possible, especially considering Tauro needs a wing to be useful, while Brom may not and Brom can be useful in the early and mid game and Tauro is not, and Tauro needs resolve to be useful in any chapter while Brom does not either (In fact, Brom doesn't even have any skills).

How is dropping Brom superior? Brom, for example, can't OHKO the Swordmasters and Ravens, and he doesn't double them either. He also won't ORKO with a Javelin forge. These are both things that Tauroneo can do with resolve.

Brom is also not useful in the early and midgame due to movement issues. Unless your entire team is Paladins and you can continuously rescue him forward so that his speed isn't a problem, he has issues being helpful.

If you are going to hold Devdan as a speedwing candidate over Brom, then you should be consistent. Devdan is then also a candidate against Tauro.

He is a Speedwing canditate over Tauroneo.

He is good and his flaws are fixable, just too costly to warrant moving up. At the least, he needs the KW and the boots, which are indeed two valuable resources, as well as likely at least one wing. However, the payback is strong enough to make it a not-negative investment (sinking a bunch of resources into a unit and getting a disproportionately minor return), just one in which the resources have arguably better uses. The boots can be spent on any unit to make them good, the KW is wanted by a lot of people, and the wings are valuable indeed. While investing them on Brom is a viable choice, it is still a load of resources that could have been spent 'better'.

I think the return is minor. Boots on Reyson is perhaps the single most important stat-booster in any playthrough, only rivalled by giving the Boots to Marcia or Jill or Tanith. Brom probably doesn't make the list.

However, it is still better to spend these resources on Brom, then to give one wing to Tauro so he can resolve-kill in chapter 25 seeing as Brom gives a much higher payback.

Wing!Tauroneo is only really important in Chapter 28 since he can double Dragons. It really depends on what characters you're using and how speed-lucky they get.

Which? Spending the wing on Devdan or Tauro? The first bit leads me to think you are saying that it is still possible to drop Tauro with a wing up-top if no unit needs the wing, but the second suggests you are talking about Devdan.

On Tauroneo. Two chapters of payoff is nothing compared to what it could do for Jill or even Haar.

I disagree on the Reyson bit, mainly because he's too frail to ever be near the front lines and can't move after enchanting (thusly making extra movement go to waste).

Funny, I had Reyson using his maximum movement of 7 most turns and I never had a problem with him dying. Knight Ring was wasted since he never had leftover movement. In some chapters, I even had to rescue-drop him forward since sometimes 7 move just wasn't sufficient.

As for other stat-beasts, Brom has exactly two problems. Movement and speed. the KW can fix one, and the boots soothe the other. It is a lot of resources, yes, but the payoff is great as well. He won't move anywhere high-up, but there is no denying that if you did choose to invest the KW and boots in him, he is a monster on the battlefield.

Except that he isn't. Even if he caps speed, which requires a lot of levelling, he doesn't double everything. He still has 8 move and no Canto, he still sucks in Chapter 25, he still can't fly. So even with resources poured into him, he's still inferior to Marcia or Tanith.

We would need to give Tauro either a bunch of set-up kills, or Bexp, and even then he's only useful when it's active. In order to make him good we would need to Bexp abuse his speed up at every level, then sink wings into him. Tauroneo simply is not worth any resources given to him and fails too hard without Resolve on. If he lacked resolve, he would be in bottom, maybe even below Bastion (who can at least be made to double if we sunk both wings into him. Still fails and is sucky, but at least can double).

There are plenty of places Tauroneo can gain experience. The throne room in Chapter 21, the reinforcements in Chapter 23, the boss area in Chapter 24, the top level in Chapter 25, Chapter 26 has lots of enemies on the lower left. He doesn't need set-up kills.

And I freely admit that Tauroneo is worthless without Resolve. Fact is, he has it, and it's an insane skill.

Ignoring that this is a lot of careful manipulation to squeeze situational useage out of a unit who sucks no matter what, the weakest dragon has 43 attack. Assuming 20/20, the battle goes like this (assuming Tauro strikes first) Tauro hits the dragon for 42 damage (Laguz lance), dragon has 9 HP left. Dragon hits Tauro for 17 damage. Tauro has 35 HP left (no resolve). Enemy phase. Dragon hits Tauro for 17 damage, Tauro has 18 HP left, Tauro resolves and hits for 46 damage and kills dragon 1.

The idea is that you drop Tauroneo in the range of a dragon. The dragons all move last, so other enemies will attack Tauro, and the Dragon will knock him to below half health. Tauroneo 1-rounds on the counter attack and gets healed to repeat for another Dragon. Use KW as necessary to manipulate his durability. Tauroneo has only 6 move anyway so he cannot engage the Dragons first on player phase w/o Reyson, nor is it advised since the dragons are generally in each other's range and he'll get mobbed if he tries.

There are two dragons with this much MT and the others have more. Tauro can not 1HKO them without a critical, so now he needs to use a vulnerary or else he goes into the enemy phase with 1 HP (basically death). This puts him at 28 HP, 2 more than 50% health with Tauro (26)

Enemy phase: Dragon 2 hits for 17 damage. Tauro has 11 HP. Tauro hits for 46 damage, the dragon lives. Player phase, Tauro needs to use a vulnerary or else he will die again. 21 HP. Enemy phase, Dragon attacks again, and Tauro is down to 4 HP. Tauro kills the dragon, but come next player phase he needs the vulnerary again! Now his has 14 HP... and the next dragon deals 19 points of damage.

Your calculations are also incorrect. Tauroneo has 37STR, and his lance has 24mt. He has 61 ATK.

2x Dragon lv 12 (breath)

54 hp, 43 atk, 17 AS, 131 hit, 37 avo, 29 def, 24 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

2x Dragon lv 13 (breath)

54 hp, 45 atk, 19 AS, 133 hit, 41 avo, 30 def, 25 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

1x Dragon lv 16 (breath)

61 hp, 48 atk, 21 AS, 138 hit, 46 avo, 32 def, 27 res, 11 crit, 4 cev

A clean 2HKO against all but the level 16 one, which he barely doubles anyway. What's more, if necessary to shift the battle in his favour, Tauroneo can use the Knight Ward, or be physiced (which will keep him in hp range to proc Resolve on the counter-attack anyway).

While it may be feasible, it is dependent on two factors (aside from having a Laguz lance this late in the game), 1 Tauro never being ganged up on by more than one foe at once (as this can easily kill him, especially if two dragons attack, as the stronger ones can 2HKO him on the enemy phase if he attacks, and if a Tiger swipes and flees/dies, it's over for him), 2 Tauro not getting mauled. Without stat-boosters/KW, Tauro has only 15 SPD by this level. Only the two weakest dragons don't double him. The strongest has 21 AS, meaning Tauro is screwed unless he can somehow get 18 AS, three more than his normal average at 20/20. Keep in mind, this is assuming he even gets there by this level (and didn't get screwed. Wanna play 'not assuming the averages'? I can do it to Tauro as well).

You should have a Laguz Lance this late. I personally never run out, since laguz aren't especially common enemies.

Basically, Tauro is a complete waste of space who's only points of useage require resource investment to not even potentially be useful, and simply but, there are better units/methods of doing anything he can do.

I could say that about many characters. Tauroneo has situational utility, which I feel is superior to Largo.

[alfredo094]

Jill has flight which is significant enough to counteract Oscars availabiltiy lead, and Oscar is > Kieran atm. If you meant why isn't Kieran > Oscar, then it's the availabiltiy lead (unlike with Jill, tehre's not enough to seperate them).

I personally don't think that flight is actually worth not being around for about half of the game.

And when I posted that Kieran was above Oscar, or I'm just blind. Pick one.

[Zkirsche]

Hmm, I think Kieran could actually go back above Oscar. His offensive advantage in lategame is not inconsiderable, especially when you consider how slowly weapon rank builds, so Oscar will struggle to get to A Axes. Oscar's only advantage is earlygame, but in most chapters, Titania is doing the majority of heavy lifting anyway and he's not significantly helpful.

180 points by chapter 25 in 10 chapters (assuming 16 promotion, though not axe use, though throwing one in the empty space in his inventory probably isn't hard if he promotes mid-chapter). Thats 18 points, 9 swings with steel aka 5 rounds per chapter. Also, the only competitition for arms scrolls is Mist, and Ridiculous Oscar > Mist anyway and she probably wont need both anyway for the SS.

[Anouleth]

180 points by chapter 25 in 10 chapters (assuming 16 promotion, though not axe use, though throwing one in the empty space in his inventory probably isn't hard if he promotes mid-chapter). Thats 18 points, 9 swings with steel aka 5 rounds per chapter. Also, the only competitition for arms scrolls is Mist, and Ridiculous Oscar > Mist anyway and she probably wont need both anyway for the SS.

In many chapters, Oscar is going to see limited combat. There are rarely so many enemies that everyone on the team is going to get 5 rounds of combat to begin with, not even going into maps where there's no point in fighting most enemies and will be over before Oscar sees that much combat. In addition, unless we nail a Steel Axe to Oscar's hand, he is going to use other weapons. Steel Axes are inaccurate. Many sword-wielding enemies are weak enough that the extra mt is worthless and he gives up reliability. He is going to use specialist weapons such as anti-armour or anti-laguz weapons. He is going to use 1-2 range weapons. He is not going to use any weapons in a chapter like C22 which is over almost as soon as it begins.

She needs both for the SS. Mist's physical combat is so bad you don't even want to put up with it for one round, let alone the twenty she needs to get to B Rank.

[Dark Sage]

Arms scrolls is the reason really that Mist will get Sonic Sword.

Although you could concievably use it on promoted Oscar to use Killer Axes.

[Dark Sage]

Sorry for double posting, but eh. Anyway how about Elincia>Janaff? Elincia is a flying healer with auto A rank in staves. True she comes in underleveled and late, but Fortify or Physicing thing is already more than whatever Janff's doing for his chapters.

[Sasori]

Can a case be made to either lower Makalov or give Stefan a rise?

There is almost no availebility lead as Makalov is recruited halfway in chapter 14 and after that he has trouble moving in the dessert.

Now if we look at their base stats you can see that Stefan is absolutely crushing the pink haired loser in stats. +8hp, +10 str, +20 skill, +15 skill and 2 more defense.

It takes a lot of time for Makalov to catch up for Stefans bases and even then stefan would probably have gained some levels. Makalov needs to be 20/6 to match Stefans base strenght,20/16 for speed and he nver catches up in skill. He does gain more defense and luck but he loses offense forever.

Is Makalov so much higher because his movenment lead and rescuing people or does the durability lead count that much?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Sasori

[Narga_Rocks]

Is Makalov so much higher because his movenment lead and rescuing people or does the durability lead count that much?

@bold: yes

@italics: meh. doesn't mean that much if you have a team of fast movers anyway

@underline: there's a durability lead?

[Sasori]

@bold: yes

@italics: meh. doesn't mean that much if you have a team of fast movers anyway

@underline: there's a durability lead?

So you can join underleveled and be crushed in stats but still be better because your movement is better? I can't say I agree to that but then again I am not that knowledgeable about tier list except that I enjoy reading them.

If i'm not mistaked Makalov quickly grows more defense and HP the stefan and the avoid lead isn't that much because stefan's luck sucks.

[Anouleth]

So you can join underleveled and be crushed in stats but still be better because your movement is better? I can't say I agree to that but then again I am not that knowledgeable about tier list except that I enjoy reading them.

If i'm not mistaked Makalov quickly grows more defense and HP the stefan and the avoid lead isn't that much because stefan's luck sucks.

Movement is very important. Makalov has flaws, but they are not big flaws. He has extremely good growths - possibly the best growth spread of any unpromoted unit in the game, and by promotion he is up there performing with the best of your characters. Stefan runs into some durability issues in later game, and in any case has a pretty bad class to go with those bases (7 move, no canto, locked to Swords).

[Narga_Rocks]

So you can join underleveled and be crushed in stats but still be better because your movement is better?

bexp. If this had been like any other game (including RD HM and possibly PoR MM) I'd say Stefan > Makalov due to how underleveled Mak starts (or more importantly, what little he can do with his starting stats). But you have a perfect method of readjusting your party's levels in order to get the best squad possible. There's not much you can do with Stefan to make him better. You have a simple solution with Mak.

If i'm not mistaked Makalov quickly grows more defense and HP the stefan and the avoid lead isn't that much because stefan's luck sucks.

I was mainly saying that while durability is nice, the bigger draw is that all you have to do is promote Mak and he'll kill about as well as your other Pallies and has 9 move. I doubt he'll ever match the durability of, say, Oscar with Ike nearby, or stuff like that. I suppose he'll be more durable than Stefan, it's just not nearly as responsible for his position as having that horse.