FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

The hand axe thing kind of got countered. You do make a fair point on C12, Marcia's a lot better than Jill here, although Jill still reaches enemies faster than most of the team so she's not terrible.

Marcia to bottom of Top for now.

[Dark Sage]

Anyway anyone object to Tormod going up? And no using Mist this time since that's a huge gap. Maybe someone else instead?

[Anouleth]

Oh yay, who's above Tormod, let's see, Calill, Geoffrey, Gatrie, Rhys, and Sothe. Those promise to be wonderful comparisons.

Although apparently if it's worthwhile to give 1200 BEXP to Mist so she can have passable post-promotion combat, Tormod can probably get his own BEXP. With Mage Band use, Tormod needs 20/4 to match Calill's base stats. Assuming a level per chapter, and three for Chapter 17, Tormod would need to be BEXPed up to level 18, about 1200 BEXP. Obviously though, Tormod doesn't just 'match' her, he kicks her ass since he has other supports to give him an offense lead, staff access and a movement lead, so he probably doesn't even need to take that much, especially if we give him the Spirit Dusts on top of the Mage Band.

So I would put Tormod above Calill. Probably Gatrie too. Gatrie has awful speed, almost non-existent durability against magic, poor luck that puts him at risk from Thunder magic, and poor movement. Even with arguably better combat (lol, OHKOes Myrmidons) and durability against melee, he doesn't have the movement to expose himself to multiple enemies so it's not really useful. Tormod also has a minor support win by giving out full attack to Devdan and Calill, while Gatrie gets to give more durability to er, Ilyana, since he's never going to be in range of Astrid or Marcia.

Gatrie does have earlygame, but it's of dubious value. He can fight the Armour Knights on the left in Chapter 7, maybe fetch the Elixir, but largely it's a Titaniastomp. Is that worth Tormod being better for the entire rest of the game?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slowking

[Dark Sage]

Well Callil has the advantage of not needing any BEXP or CEXP tossed onto her to be good. She can use basically every tome you have right off the bat and her stats are pretty good, so that's clearly in her favor.

[Anouleth]

Well, congratulations, but BEXP exists and we can do stuff with it, unfortunately for Calill. Like push Tormod into 'kicking her ass' territory.

[Dark Sage]

Callil still has the advantage of needing no resources and having B in all ranks in magic. That's pretty hefty.

[Anouleth]

Yeah, and needing no resources is not a major positive like you make out. Tormod may need BEXP, but even if we shortchange him and don't give out all that much (rather begging the question of why we're using him in the first place if we're going to sandbag him), he still has advantages over Calill that she can never match.

Being able to use higher ranked tomes is an infinitesimal advantage. Thunder forges are still the optimum choice until we get Thoron, so the only real advantage is siege tomes. Except that while Calill is chipping away at enemies, Tormod is actually next to the enemies and killing them and healing and being 10x more useful. And Tormod can still get away with using Meteor and can easily get rank for Bolting too. So her only 'real' advantage is being able to use Blizzard and Thoron, which doesn't even cancel out Tormod's boost from his Reyson support, let alone his staff access or movement advantage or minor availability advantage.

[Interceptor]

Needing no resources can be a big deal if it's a unit that shows up early in the game. I don't think that it applies very much for Calill, who shows up only for the last third of the game, and isn't actually very impressive. Although, props to her for being RNG-proof and good with siege tomes, right when you need someone like that.

The problem with Tormod going up -- at least higher than his current tier -- is that he's the softest guy on the front lines (2-3HKO'ed for a long time, and bleh avoid). It's nice that 8MV lets him keep up, but his durability is pretty poor and he doesn't have a lot of ways to deal with it. His offense is a problem initially, but it's eminently fixable so I don't consider it to be a major issue.

Also I am fine with Marcia at bottom of Top, but that's as high as she can go. Flying is nice, doubling is nice, but she's Lance/Sword and often struggles with her damage output and durability. Jill is way better than she is, I'd say that Marcia exists in the same tier almost solely because of her unique earlygame utility.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Interceptor

[Snowy_One]

Whatever you think of the benefits isn't relevant to me at the moment. Apparently you don't like having a frontline healer that can kill things (don't do it too often, though) and keep up. I do.

More specifically, I don't see the point. Already I have a team with 10-12 attackers before Mist even touches the SS. If Mist gets it, she does the exact same thing a sage would do. Sure, she may be a few points more durable, but... anything she can do Soren can do better ignoring move. Movement is the only reason Mist is even being talked about, and it it's because people want her to rush up and use a Mend on someone. However, a physic stave can do the same work Mist's mends do and doesn't require the healer to expose themselves, move to any particular space, or risk a unit being out of foot range or far enough away to be exposed to a threat.

You seem to be missing the point. Everyone else, on a team of 8, has already gotten sufficient bexp. Another level or two generally means they do 110% damage in two hits instead of 100%, or 70% instead of 67% or something useless like that. And you expect me to believe than an insignificant improvement like that is superior to making Mist useful? Apparently you aren't good at optimizing bexp use. And we wouldn't be bexping until we are ready to seek promotion. Why would you want to bexp her from level 6 to 8, for example? Why would you think that this is what I'm advocating? And the goal isn't so she can kill 12 things. It is to be on the front lines, have 8 move, spare you some physic staves, etc.

You seem to be missing the point. Before Mist promotes, the ONLY advantage to having her take any Bexp is so that she can potentially heal 1 more point of HP. She has no means to defend herself at all. No means to deter anyone. Her durability isn't going to matter at all because you will NEVER want things attacking her. An extra point of defense, speed, strength, or really anything on a combat character is going to matter more than any Bexp spent on Mist because they will actually USE the stat. Besides, getting Mist to level 10 is going to require roughly 1,000 Bexp. Sure, her healing is going to reduce this, but the Bexp we dumped on her could also have been dumped on, say, Oscar. 10/1 Mist has 6 STR. Base Oscar has that. Our goal is faster completion. It makes much more sense to dump the Bexp on a combat unit than on Mist.

Titania does not have a better partner than Mist. She gets +1 atk and +3 def. You aren't beating that with any of her partners.

No matter whom Titania supports, she gets 2 defense (two supports) Boyd and Ike are frontliners who will never have to retreat. Sure, Ike prefers other supports, but Boyd will most likely be the B no matter who else she supports. The difference between a B rhys B Boyd and a A Mist B Boyd is 2 defense and less hit. However, Titania already will have 20 defense from either support. However, it seems you believe Mist should go B Titania, A Jill. The only difference between a B Boyd B Rhys and a B Boyd B Mist is... 1 DEFENSE!

However, Mist needs to potentially move out of range to heal while Rhys can just go where she needs him to be saited. As supports, both are almost identical in terms of bonus and as locations, both work out rather well for Titania. Even if Mist is the statistical best, Titania isn't going to cry one bit if she isn't around.

And guess what? That bexp you think is going to waste on Mist allows you to apply that all the time. Jill doesn't have better partners, either. Lethe and Haar? Are you mad? Heaven for one, and Lethe is probably getting dropped by most people somewhere along the way. Haar doesn't appear until late and has wind. How is that superior to a really quick +1 atk, +3 def, +7 avo? Even if Jill moves out of range from time to time, you are likely getting the benefits from the support more than half the time anyway. That's pretty significant.

*claps* And you ignored my point entirely! Mist is a mounted healer. Jill is a flier. Mist needs to run up to people to heal them, then move to a location and pray she's in the right spot (she already has to do this with Titania. A second unit is going to be stress). Jill can easily pass over (and is expected to pass over) terrain that is difficult for Mist. Chapter 25 is a ungodly prime example of this, but it's true for almost every chapter that is not a outright barrel-roll through stuff (I don't even think they exist past 18). As a result, Mist and Jill will be out of support range frequently. Ergo, the support will not be very active.

If I had two units whom had a phenomenal support, but one was a healer and the other was a flyer, I'm positive you would be wasting no time denouncing it as a bad idea. Already people have ****ed to no end about Rhys and Mia being in range (not about durability, just being in range) every time I've seen that support pairing get mentioned. The only way that is NOT happening with Mist and Jill is if Mist is using a Physic, which is the exact opposite of the reason we are using her in the first place.

Let me get this straight: you think that hammerne is not well spent on a weapon guaranteed to ORKO at 1-2 range and instead find a better use would be on killers (not anywhere near guaranteed to crit and are then no better than steel swords +1), Vague Katti (see killers only a little stronger when it fails to kill), or braves (generally don't 2HKO so you still face counters and they also have no 1-2 range).

**** yea! Lots of weapons can't be replaced! Short axes and spears as well as the Spear itself and the Tomahawk can't be replaced and are great weapons (javilins and handaxes). If you're toting 1-2 range for Mist as being so great, it makes only sense as well for these. The killer weapons are awesome due to the critical boost. A critical strike means no counter attack as well as allowing for a unit who can't make the HP difference has a chance of outright killing. The VK offers the highest attack before silver weapons (whopping 12) as well as 35% critical and +3 defense. The brave weapons as well make great targets due to their double- attack ability. Any of the higher-end tomes as well would be wonderful.

Even the SS is viable reason not to use the Hammerine on Mist. Mia is capable of killing without it and will net a higher per-use kill rate due to her critical rate. Tanith can use it as well, but will ONLY be using it for wyverns and thusly, will have it persist longer and can probably actively use it with only needing 1 use to keep it running well, compared to Mist's 3. The RS as well. It has only 15 uses, but anyone whom can wield the swords will want it as it has 15 MT, attacks RES, and heals the user as well. This isn't to mention the bolt axe (works wonders on dragons) and the Flame lance (great anti-Laguz) in the magic weapons as well. I can find more reasons if I wanted to, but in general, the Hammerine is in NO way best used on Mist's SS.

And it seems you have a problem where you can't see beyond wyverns.

If you're not Mist or Mia, there's little reason to touch it otherwise. Tanith maybe, but that's it. However, FOR wyverns, it's a wonder. 20 MT RES attacking weapon with 1-2 range. I can't see why you wouldn't want to use it on them unless you're a sage or have a bow. Even with Mia/Mist, the main reason to crack it out is killing them. Mia has MT troubles if not wrathed and Mist should be healing (or else we would be using a sage).

Did you miss the part where we said that she kills weakened things and cantos along the way? You don't think that this would happen often enough to reach A by chapter 27? ~10 chapters of doing that + some sonic sword use + those two arms scrolls? Last time I played Mist hit S rank and I was annoyed because I wanted her to be able to use the Ashera if necessary since I'd never give her the VK.

Did you mean with a sword? A SWORD?! LMAO! That's outright hilarious! Mist needs to attack some people for damage amounts that can only be considered 'laughable' at best, taking counter attacks an forgoing healing just so she can snatch up the arms scrolls and a valuable SS and RS resource as well as all 4 uses of the hammerine JUST so that she can net 55 kills. Rhys could probably net half that from striking down leftovers on how own with a basic tome and more if we tossed the right band his way! Never mind how much Tormod could do if we gave him the EXP to level.

Mist: Quite a sizable amount of Bexp.

A possible early promotion item

The SS

The arms scrolls

Potential babying through another level of weapon skills followed by the RS.

Reward: A healer doing what Tormod can already do with just the KW and who is good if we don't want to steal physic staves or even touch one of the four we get through the game. Oh. And 1 defense for Titania and a half-support for Jill.

Rhys: A speed band (maybe)

A forged tome (maybe)

Stealing a few physics from enemy priests (easy)

Reward: A healer who will have the most range throughout the game, but is essentially a free healer whom we can make into a passible attacker with the right resources.

Tormod: A load of of Bexp

The Knight Ring

Reward: A unit with similar movement to Mist whom is capable of attacking every turn with weaponry that is not only overall superior, but can be replaced as well (plus, we can stick him with the mage band to end up with the unit with the largest healing range in the game).

I know Tormod takes more Bexp (13 levels to 20/0) than Mist, but Mist is already getting a load it sounds like. Why can't Tormod have a identical load?

You don't think that this would happen often enough to reach A by chapter 27? ~10 chapters of doing that + some sonic sword use + those two arms scrolls? Last time I played Mist hit S rank and I was annoyed because I wanted her to be able to use the Ashera if necessary since I'd never give her the VK.

I'm surprised that you didn't see this as babying and/or didn't see it as not using Mist as a healer. Not to mention shocked that, if you really wanted S staves, you wouldn't have been focused on getting her staff rank up first anyways. Why didn't you want her using the VK anyways? Mist has low STR, so unless you're giving her forged silver (I would seriously question you at that point) the 12 MT + the critical rate would seem nice. Not to mention a boost to defense. And since one of the reason Mist is oh-so-godly is her defense, I would think that a boost to her positioning.

"All three"? First off, who is even using more than one of Mak/Zihark/Mia?

*raises hand*

I'll grant I don't give two ****s about tiers when playing, but still, I've used all three before at once. Sides, I would think that pretty arrogant to assume you know what every player will use. Not that it matters. You only get 1 forge per chapter. Ike wants one, and so will Mak/Zihark/Mia. Once they're forged up, you'll be forging lances and axes and tomes. Okay, maybe not in that order, but still, you will be distributing forges as they are needed. Even if you don't have a forge sword user who needs a weapon, you can have almost any other person clammering for a forge unless they already have one. Assuming a forge never breaks or gets outdated, I would think that, even on a team of eight, Mist would not get a forge until chapter 16. So how is Mist getting a sword fairly for training without robbing the team of a forge-chance?

Beyond that, you don't need them all to get a steel forge. You just need an iron forge user to get a new one.

Why would this entail them getting rid of the old one? Even a iron forge rocks compared to storebought weapons. There's no reason to not use them for all they're worth.

Plus, why wouldn't most units have received an iron forge? 8 combat units should generally get one each unless they don't even need one. Then someone gets a steel forge and passes their iron to Mist.

Because we can get only 1 forge per chapter. Plain and simple. Plus, not everyone is a sword user. You make it sound as if there are only two people who will use swords, so I will play. We have Ike and Mak using swords and a upgrade chance comes. However, there are 8 units on the team. That's only a 1 in 4 chance that the unit being upgraded is a sword user assuming equal chances.

There are various ways she can get a weakened one that nobody wants anyway.

Everybody wants one.

Or you can simply make one for her if people are willing to forge for Rhys of all people.

The difference between forging a tome for Rhys and a sword for mist is that the only reason we would forge for Mist is to make her a training blade. If we forge for Rhys, it may be pricy, but damn it he's gonna use it to actually fight!

You have a very specific definition of phenomenal, and it is rather underwhelming.

You worship the ground Titania walks on for less during the same time period. Without Rhys, it becomes a lot harder to progress and you will need to waste multiple turns using vulneraries; potentially multiple times too.

Apparently the entire game is chapter 14 and 15.

You set the standard with Titania praise. Not me.

And who is trying to promote her before 15 anyway?

Anyone who wants to train her swords up without having her weak STR tink or deal laughably low damage to enemies. Weren't people screaming at Astrid for doing something almost identical, except without the risk of being countered?

And what is it you want out of a support battery? You must have insanely high standards if Mist is nearly "meh". She's easily one of the best supporters in the game. Only Ike and Oscar are potentially beating her.

Consistency. Mist does not have it. Not with the way she's being forced to act at least. Supports only have a range of 3. If you move out of that range, it's gone. Entirely. I'm sure you are aware of that fact. If I have a unit who needs to move about and risks fading out of range due to how she's being forced to act, she can easily end up in range only 1/2 the time; or even less depending on the situation. I wouldn't have a problem with Mist's battery (well, not as much. She's still overhyped) if she were using physics constantly and could thusly be where ever she was needed, but she isn't. What's worse is I can't even figure out HOW she's being used. Is she a impromptu sage? Then why all the work for something Soren could do with the boots? Is she a mounted healer who can chip in with an okay attack? Then why are we discussing having her attack people with melee attacks? Or her using the SS so much? WHAT THE HELL IS MIST EVEN DOING?!

And no, I would rate any pairing without such a huge discrepancy in their movements as Mist and Jill have (mounted healer without physics needs to heal with Mend and healing > supports vs. a flyer who will be passing over terrain and around units to complete her job. Not a good match) as better unless the element matchings just flat-out blew. I would honestly say Devdan is a superior support battery if Nephenee had a element more complimentary to his.

And your point is? I never asked you to reach D rank before 9 ends. 10 heals may last 2 chapters, but after that she's toting Mend and she's fine. Until then, you have Rhys + Mist anyway so when you need someone to get more than 20 HP healed you can just use him. Heck, you can use them both on the same unit if you want.

You can. I've done it. Though you have to acknowledge that Mist is pretty aweful before she hits D. She heals only 14 HP. Base Rhys heals 20.

Ward has little benefit before Mist can reach C anyway.

Free EXP. Lots of free EXP.

Also, what are you getting out of Rhys that is worth blowing Ward on him rather than Mist? Tell me that. What does Rhys provide you in comparison to 8 move, water affinity to great units, canto, ability to sonic sword, ability to cause great damage to mages/sages without taking great damage in return (Rhys only has one of these two against sages)? There is little point of even blowing the ward on him.

All those things cost resources. Lots of resources. Most of them are redundant anyways. Why canto and have 8 move when I can just heal with a physic? There is no point. Mist offers supports that put her at risk at well (frontliners will be taking the brunt of enemy phase, mounted units even more so. Mist needs to be near the front line for both). 8 move and canto aren't an advantage. They are a fix to Mist's problem of being a overall mediocre unit. Throughout the game, Rhys has greater range due to the power of physics, making him the superior healer. Other units can fill Mist's 'role' with either less resources (Rhys to fill the role of a healer) or with better results (Tormod, who also needs less resources). The only reason people hype Mist is because of the wow factor of having a healer perform well in combat. Mist is a syphon on resources, one that never shuts off, and her only return is a laughably limited amount of kills for resources better spent on other units. Mist. Sucks.

Um, very limited purge,

Still better than what Mist has.

Mist can use physic by then as well.

With less range and for a smaller amount.

Rhys has trouble even getting to enemies with his other tomes

Other units seem to get there just fine. Sages and units with only 6 move do well, so why not him?

and gets weighed down unless you "make a" Light "specifically for" Rhys.

He doesn't need one. He just needs to be consistently capable of killing off a weakened enemy or weakening one for another to beat Mist.

He'll never do better than 2HKO and generally doesn't double, so Mist's 2RKOing with a forge isn't bad compared to him and she does it much much earlier than he does (she's got more move and thus encounters the enemy a turn sooner).

You act as if the enemy is at the limit of movement and that there never will be stragglers or points where the party simply can not move faster for various reasons. Both of which happen frequently. 5 move is more than fine enough.

And if Mist 2RKOs she can attack enemy phase + player phase and move forward and not fall back at all. If Rhys tries to do the same thing then he's going to fall even more behind.

Why does Mist care? She is a healer. She doesn't need to keep up with the front lines at all. Why does Rhys care? He is a hea-

Oh. Wait. Mist NEEDS to keep up to the front line to perform her role and if she falls behind for any reason she becomes immediatly worse than Rhys. Rhys doesn't care and could feasibly perform his role as a healer with a movement rate of 2 and still kick her ass.

And your thing about being a healer. The point with Mist is that she can be more than that.

At a cost that is extra-ordinarally high for a reward that is extra ordinarily low. 55 kills. Fifty. Five. Kills. For mass infusions of Bexp, arms scrolls, forges, TWO unique weapons, AND THE ENTIRE HAMMERINE STAFF!

IF ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME EVEN BLINKED IN THAT DIRECTION FOR THEIR RESOURCE USE THEY WOULD BE EXECUTED TO LOW! MIA WAS PUT IN LOW BECAUSE SHE NEEDED WRATH TO BE TRUELY GOOD! JUST WRATH! IF ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME EVEN BLINKED IN THAT DIRECTION FOR THEIR RESOURCE USE THEY WOULD BE EXECUTED TO LOW!

In Mist's own tier, the most damning item I can find to be a good unit is Brom needing the KW, or Ilyana needing a speedband. Yet every unit in the damned tier is a solid unit who can easily be good and needs far less resources to be passible. So why should Mist get treated better? Because she's a loli?

Her primary use may be healer and supporter, but the fact that she can defend herself well on enemy phase and occasionally blick things with SS and when nothing needs healing she can poke and run to KO something weakened is very relevant to discussion of better character.

If her primary use is a healer, then why are we channeling all these resources into her attacking skill? It's not her primary use, it won't be used often, and it's not the point of using her. Besides, if she's attacking only when no one needs healing then why are you hyping up her offense at all? I wouldn't think it likely to go for any more than 24 turns without someone needing some degree of healing. So... GET YOUR ARGUMENT STRAIGHT! Is she a healer, or a fighter? If she's a healer, why are we having her fight and investing so many resources in someone who can only do a average job at best in combat when there are cheaper and better healers out there? If she is a fighter, same thing except for fighting?

Why isn't 20/20 the expected endgame? I suppose a team of 12 might not get past 20/15, but that means that you should consider a tighter team. Besides, 5 -> 8 move. You aren't getting better than that. It may not be RD speedwing Titania/Haar levels of "duh", but it's a pretty low-cost item for her when you consider its uses.

Because she's an aweful fighter even in the early game. Just less so. Having her run ahead is suicide, especially since she lacks supports at that point in the game.

[Shadow Mir]

Snowy, Snowy, Snowy... You haven't changed one iota from GameFAQS. You're delusional if you think that Tormod's getting the Knight Ring over Reyson, for one, and second, Tormod needs C staves if he wants to approach Mist's versatility, which isn't happening quickly. And again, Titania doesn't give a **** about Rhys. Also, what the hell about trying to downplay Mist's support impact on Titania and Jill, the former whose other supports are either slower (Ike,Boyd) or her worst support option (Rhys), and the latter who has support issues if Mist isn't in play, because her other options are either Lethe, who has Heaven and gets dropped around midgame by most people. or Haar who comes late and has Wind affinity. Plus, while pretty much all of Rhys's supports are one-way, I consider Titania-Rhys a "no-way" support, as the support lacks notable benefits for either side.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Narga_Rocks]

More specifically, I don't see the point. Already I have a team with 10-12 attackers before Mist even touches the SS. If Mist gets it, she does the exact same thing a sage would do. Sure, she may be a few points more durable, but... anything she can do Soren can do better ignoring move. Movement is the only reason Mist is even being talked about, and it it's because people want her to rush up and use a Mend on someone. However, a physic stave can do the same work Mist's mends do and doesn't require the healer to expose themselves, move to any particular space, or risk a unit being out of foot range or far enough away to be exposed to a threat.

Well there's your first problem. Too many units. No wonder you experience bexp shortages.

Also, on the front lines she can support units. And be another canto attacker. Look at the whole argument, not just parts of it. Mist is a multi-faceted unit. Apparently it's too complicated for you, though.

You seem to be missing the point. Before Mist promotes, the ONLY advantage to having her take any Bexp is so that she can potentially heal 1 more point of HP.

Then don't bexp until you are ready to promote? Or (before then) only give her what is left when all your other units can't actually get a significant performance increase from more bexp?

She has no means to defend herself at all. No means to deter anyone. Her durability isn't going to matter at all because you will NEVER want things attacking her. An extra point of defense, speed, strength, or really anything on a combat character is going to matter more than any Bexp spent on Mist because they will actually USE the stat.

This would be a great argument if it wasn't a complete non-sequitor. Try to make arguments that aren't logical fallacies. People will respect you more.

Besides, getting Mist to level 10 is going to require roughly 1,000 Bexp.

Um...You know you are incredibly wrong, right?

First off, it takes less than 1000 to go from 1 to 10. That's 9 levels and each of them are under 100 cost. That's 900 max, and quite a bit less depending on how you spend it. Also, are you suggesting she never even picks up a staff from chapter 9 to 15? Um, why?

Sure, her healing is going to reduce this, but the Bexp we dumped on her could also have been dumped on, say, Oscar. 10/1 Mist has 6 STR. Base Oscar has that. Our goal is faster completion. It makes much more sense to dump the Bexp on a combat unit than on Mist.

I know Cynthia already talked to me about my attitude, but you are a complete idiot. Oscar has already gotten exp. I told you, he's killing stuff. Do you want him to cause 120% damage rather than 100%? Is that supposed to be better than giving Mist bexp? You are completely failing to understand something pointed out multiple times. The other units are already getting sufficient bexp. Extra bexp on them is doing nothing. Spending it on Mist will get you a healer that doesn't suck at everything else.

No matter whom Titania supports, she gets 2 defense (two supports) Boyd and Ike are frontliners who will never have to retreat.

Apparently 2 > 4. If Titania has, say, A Mist, B Boyd, Titania has +2 str and +4 def. Ike doesn't get her that. He gets her avo. Def is more reliable unless you have massive avo like a supported Oscar or Zihark or Ike.

Sure, Ike prefers other supports, but Boyd will most likely be the B no matter who else she supports. The difference between a B rhys B Boyd and a A Mist B Boyd is 2 defense and less hit. However, Titania already will have 20 defense from either support. However, it seems you believe Mist should go B Titania, A Jill. The only difference between a B Boyd B Rhys and a B Boyd B Mist is... 1 DEFENSE!

And 2 move. And more durability on her partner so it works more. B Rhys will almost never be anywhere near. B Mist will be around. That's +1 Mt and +2 def over what Rhys is giving. How do you propose a 6 move unit keeps up with a 9 move unit? Why are you still spouting this Rhys thing? Also, I'm not setting Mist's supports in stone. She can have A Titania or Boyd or Jill. All of those are pretty helpful for both Mist and the partner. She can then take a B with any of the 2 she didn't. And if you like Mordy, you could even support that way, though I'd generally not use him for long so it may not work as well as the other 3. If you go A Titania, that's +2 def on what Rhys would give, and +3 most of the time considering how unlikely Rhys is to be nearby. Also, if you are concerned about Mist being in combat, what about Rhys? That is an absolutely terrible idea.

However, Mist needs to potentially move out of range to heal while Rhys can just go where she needs him to be saited. As supports, both are almost identical in terms of bonus and as locations, both work out rather well for Titania. Even if Mist is the statistical best, Titania isn't going to cry one bit if she isn't around.

What? Titania will cry if she's not getting anything. Unless you think she's so great she doesn't need a support? What happened to your bawling about Titania not being the best unit in the game? And how does Rhys get to go wherever she needs him to be "saited". By the way, what is "saited"? Does that mean "he's 10 spaces back because his move is crap in comparison"? If so, I'm not sure why she'd need him there. If it means anything else, I'd like to ask how you propose that Rhys has an easier time getting within 3 squares than a unit with 2 more move. And why would Mist be out of range? Heal + Canto, remember? Even with a mend she can more easily place herself where Titania wants than Rhys with physic (due to falling behind). And with a physic, along with 8 move and canto, Mist has no problem whatsoever.

*claps* And you ignored my point entirely! Mist is a mounted healer. Jill is a flier. Mist needs to run up to people to heal them, then move to a location and pray she's in the right spot (she already has to do this with Titania. A second unit is going to be stress). Jill can easily pass over (and is expected to pass over) terrain that is difficult for Mist. Chapter 25 is a ungodly prime example of this, but it's true for almost every chapter that is not a outright barrel-roll through stuff (I don't even think they exist past 18). As a result, Mist and Jill will be out of support range frequently. Ergo, the support will not be very active.

How often do you even think that this is happening. You haven't shown this to be true, and I sincerely doubt this is the case. There are plenty of chapters where they will be within range. That's why I said "half the time". Did you pay attention? What about chapter 26? Or 27? Or Endgame? There are lots of cases where Jill can be near Mist the entire chapter.

If I had two units whom had a phenomenal support, but one was a healer and the other was a flyer, I'm positive you would be wasting no time denouncing it as a bad idea. Already people have ****ed to no end about Rhys and Mia being in range (not about durability, just being in range) every time I've seen that support pairing get mentioned. The only way that is NOT happening with Mist and Jill is if Mist is using a Physic, which is the exact opposite of the reason we are using her in the first place.

Hello, Canto calling for Snowy. Hello? I think you seem to be forgetting that little detail. It's not as trying as you seem to think to keep Mist in range and yet have her heal. And it's not like there are very many people bawling about Rhys and Mia. At least, not anymore. Durability is still a valid concern for Rhys, and I suppose technically it is easier to push Mia around and she has 1 more move (and will probably actually promote whereas we may not bother with Rhys). But whatever may be said about them doesn't really apply to Mist and Jill.

Let me get this straight: you think that hammerne is not well spent on a weapon guaranteed to ORKO at 1-2 range and instead find a better use would be on killers (not anywhere near guaranteed to crit and are then no better than steel swords +1), Vague Katti (see killers only a little stronger when it fails to kill), or braves (generally don't 2HKO so you still face counters and they also have no 1-2 range).

**** yea! Lots of weapons can't be replaced! Short axes and spears as well as the Spear itself and the Tomahawk can't be replaced and are great weapons (javilins and handaxes). If you're toting 1-2 range for Mist as being so great, it makes only sense as well for these. The killer weapons are awesome due to the critical boost. A critical strike means no counter attack as well as allowing for a unit who can't make the HP difference has a chance of outright killing. The VK offers the highest attack before silver weapons (whopping 12) as well as 35% critical and +3 defense. The brave weapons as well make great targets due to their double- attack ability. Any of the higher-end tomes as well would be wonderful.

And how is this superior to ORKO at 2 range? It's not. These are all cool things, but Sonic Sword is simply better. I'm not saying to use all 3 uses, I'm not even saying you must use 1. I'm just saying that SS is superior to any of your other options. SS ORKOs. The others sometimes ORKO. How the hell is the one guaranteed to ORKO actually losing in your mind? it makes no sense. Why are you repairing things that are inferior and saying that this is a superior option?

Even the SS is viable reason not to use the Hammerine on Mist. Mia is capable of killing without it and will net a higher per-use kill rate due to her critical rate. Tanith can use it as well, but will ONLY be using it for wyverns and thusly, will have it persist longer and can probably actively use it with only needing 1 use to keep it running well, compared to Mist's 3. The RS as well. It has only 15 uses, but anyone whom can wield the swords will want it as it has 15 MT, attacks RES, and heals the user as well. This isn't to mention the bolt axe (works wonders on dragons) and the Flame lance (great anti-Laguz) in the magic weapons as well. I can find more reasons if I wanted to, but in general, the Hammerine is in NO way best used on Mist's SS.

I specifically denied 3 uses last time. Are you even reading what I type? And Flame lance only helps on specific enemies and you have other options. SS helps on everything. Bolt axe is terrible, even on dragons. They have massive res and it only has 20 attack on them. Most axe users have terrible magic. How is that working wonders? It's barely chipping. All these things you mentioned that you think are oh so great are inferior. And who is even killing with the RS? Maybe Mia? That's about it, and only with mage band use when you could have been raising her other stats for the other 80% of her playtime. Most other units aren't KOing with the runesword, therefore while you might think that this is a weapon that "anyone whom can wield the swords will want it", I'd suggest that relying on healing, concrete durability, and avo are much better ideas than immortal units that fail to kill things. Also it appears at the end of chapter 26. At the most you are burning 1 use of hammerne on it, and thus you can use other uses on other weapons. Like the SS.

And it seems you have a problem where you can't see beyond wyverns.

If you're not Mist or Mia, there's little reason to touch it otherwise. Tanith maybe, but that's it. However, FOR wyverns, it's a wonder. 20 MT RES attacking weapon with 1-2 range. I can't see why you wouldn't want to use it on them unless you're a sage or have a bow. Even with Mia/Mist, the main reason to crack it out is killing them. Mia has MT troubles if not wrathed and Mist should be healing (or else we would be using a sage).

And you have more than one way to skin those catsmini-dragons. At times, sure, take the SS away from Mist. In fact, Interceptor was even the one to suggest such action. But give it back after.

Did you miss the part where we said that she kills weakened things and cantos along the way? You don't think that this would happen often enough to reach A by chapter 27? ~10 chapters of doing that + some sonic sword use + those two arms scrolls? Last time I played Mist hit S rank and I was annoyed because I wanted her to be able to use the Ashera if necessary since I'd never give her the VK.

Did you mean with a sword? A SWORD?! LMAO! That's outright hilarious! Mist needs to attack some people for damage amounts that can only be considered 'laughable' at best, taking counter attacks an forgoing healing just so she can snatch up the arms scrolls and a valuable SS and RS resource as well as all 4 uses of the hammerine JUST so that she can net 55 kills. Rhys could probably net half that from striking down leftovers on how own with a basic tome and more if we tossed the right band his way! Never mind how much Tormod could do if we gave him the EXP to level.

Alright. It's like you aren't even paying attention. How hard is it to kill things that Oscar or Titania came shy of ORKOing? Mist can easily cause more than enough damage. Where is this "taking counter attacks" coming from? And how did hammerne get 4 uses, and why are we using them all? Until you start paying attention, I think we should all start ignoring you.

STOP ACCUSING ME OF THINGS I'M NOT SAYING. If you can't be bothered to analyze someone's argument such that you don't accuse them of ridiculous things they aren't saying, DON'T POST.

Mist: Quite a sizable amount of Bexp.

Not all that much. It's like 400 or less if you just go for the healing with horse. If you want more it costs more, but you also get your money's worth, too, so who cares?

A possible early promotion item

And the problem is?

The SS

Help! Help! We are applying a resource to the unit that kills best with it. Oh no! You are like smash with different unit preferences. But at least he can recognize Titania's worth in fe9.

The arms scrolls

You keep bawling about this and yet have never given a sufficient explanation for where they are better spent. So, since you like nitpicking so much, how about you give something for us to blast. Tell me what you want to spend those arms scrolls on that is superior to allowing Mist to be near the front lines and kill when necessary.

Potential babying through another level of weapon skills followed by the RS.

If you call killing things that need killing to be babying you are worse than I thought. Think about it. Your mounted units have to rush forward and kill the tough stuff. Your foot units need to take full move just to do things. Might as well kill weakened things with Mist because she actually has canto. Hardly babying. What is your preferred method for taking care of scraps, hmm?

Reward: A healer doing what Tormod can already do with just the KW and who is good if we don't want to steal physic staves or even touch one of the four we get through the game. Oh. And 1 defense for Titania and a half-support for Jill.

Tormod can't actually do what Mist can do, and Tormod costs just as much in bexp, if not more. Additionally, he is taking away god-mode Reyson because you want to give the Knight Ring to him. Or did you actually mean KW? If so, then you really really suck with resources given you want to give Tormod something he can't even use. And what do you mean a half-support for Jill? Also, remember, it's 2 defence for Titania, possibly 3, since Rhys is never going to be around her.

Rhys: A speed band (maybe)

A forged tome (maybe)

Stealing a few physics from enemy priests (easy)

Reward: A healer who will have the most range throughout the game, but is essentially a free healer whom we can make into a passible attacker with the right resources.

Most range until turn 3. Yay? Then Mist's movement overrides Rhys' extra range because a couple extra move becomes 6+ after 3 turns, and Rhys' 2 or 3 extra staff range never increases over time. And his attacking ability is basically 2RKOing at best, generally, given how he almost never doubles. And that forged tome is the most expensive thing ever created if you want actual mt on it. Also, stealing takes time. You aren't necessarily going to be able to steal as many as you think. And "passible" attacker is more like "passable until turn 3" because of his move. Even worse, Mist can 2RKO with a forge, too, and hers is way way cheaper than Rhys'. I did an analysis you probably ignored. The cost of two arms scrolls + 2 epic steel sword forges is cheaper than Rhys getting one single forge. Yeah.

Tormod: A load of of Bexp

Which is better than Mist how?

The Knight Ring

Already more costly than everything we gave Mist combined. Congratulations you fail at opportunity cost harder than smash.

Reward:

Reyson is now worse. Congratulations. You made one of the best units in the game worse. Aren't you smart.

A unit with similar movement to Mist whom is capable of attacking every turn with weaponry that is not only overall superior, but can be replaced as well (plus, we can stick him with the mage band to end up with the unit with the largest healing range in the game).

Also takes forever to get to physic staff use. Also doesn't give any really good supports. Also has worse durability than her anyway. And he's slower so he doubles less often. Wow. Go you.

I know Tormod takes more Bexp (13 levels to 20/0) than Mist, but Mist is already getting a load it sounds like. Why can't Tormod have a identical load?

You do realize this isn't Communist, right? Units are given stuff because they give us returns. I've explained why his returns are inferior. Ergo, he's not automatically entitled to the same resources as she is. You aren't getting enough to justify the expense. Even if you want to spend it anyway, since Mist gives you so much more in return and she has 7 extra chapters of healing, I think the gap between them is quite justified.

I'm surprised that you didn't see this as babying and/or didn't see it as not using Mist as a healer. Not to mention shocked that, if you really wanted S staves, you wouldn't have been focused on getting her staff rank up first anyways. Why didn't you want her using the VK anyways? Mist has low STR, so unless you're giving her forged silver (I would seriously question you at that point) the 12 MT + the critical rate would seem nice. Not to mention a boost to defense. And since one of the reason Mist is oh-so-godly is her defense, I would think that a boost to her positioning.

You can heal plenty while still having her fight. She reached S for both around the same time. It's not hard. Restart map, have someone else kill what I let her kill the first time. S for staves. Besides, I didn't care all that much about her hitting S since I had Rhys, too (Mia support). It wasn't important enough to pay attention to. Annoyance has varying levels. As for why I wouldn't give it to her. Um, did you forget Mia? Mia actually gets a lot of extra 3HKOs with that over killers and it allows 100% crit with wrath. Why would I give it to Mist? And who said godly defence? I'm getting kinda sick of your strawmen.

And why would it be babying, anyway? If you have 8 units, and one of those 8 fail to kill, one of the remaining 7 need to attack. If the 6 non-Mist units are busy, Mist killing is not babying her. And yes, busy can include "help, I don't have canto so I don't want to fall behind".

*raises hand*

I'll grant I don't give two ****s about tiers when playing, but still, I've used all three before at once. Sides, I would think that pretty arrogant to assume you know what every player will use. Not that it matters. You only get 1 forge per chapter. Ike wants one, and so will Mak/Zihark/Mia. Once they're forged up, you'll be forging lances and axes and tomes. Okay, maybe not in that order, but still, you will be distributing forges as they are needed. Even if you don't have a forge sword user who needs a weapon, you can have almost any other person clammering for a forge unless they already have one. Assuming a forge never breaks or gets outdated, I would think that, even on a team of eight, Mist would not get a forge until chapter 16. So how is Mist getting a sword fairly for training without robbing the team of a forge-chance?

We don't need to assume what every player will use. As Int is fond of saying (I'm paraphrasing), there are far more retarded ways of playing than efficient ways of playing. Since this tier list is interested in efficiency, it wouldn't matter if 40% of players only use swords, ever. It really wouldn't.

Um, "until chapter 16". Wouldn't you know it, we've been asking for her to promote in 16 or later. Besides, you seem willing to dump a forge on Rhys. And considering you are perfectly happy supplying everyone else with a forge, why is Mist singled out, exactly? It's like you are playing the "fair" stick only when it suits you. If it is "fair" for Tormod to get bexp just because Mist is, then why is it not "fair" for Mist to get her own forge? Except I'm not even asking for a new one.

Beyond that, you don't need them all to get a steel forge. You just need an iron forge user to get a new one.

Why would this entail them getting rid of the old one? Even a iron forge rocks compared to storebought weapons. There's no reason to not use them for all they're worth.

So how often do you think a 10mt iron forge is better to use than a 9mt iron blade? I suspect that the army benefits from Mist having the old forge far more often than Mia benefits from holding onto an iron forge when she's already holding a steel forge and an iron blade.

Plus, why wouldn't most units have received an iron forge? 8 combat units should generally get one each unless they don't even need one. Then someone gets a steel forge and passes their iron to Mist.

Because we can get only 1 forge per chapter. Plain and simple. Plus, not everyone is a sword user. You make it sound as if there are only two people who will use swords, so I will play. We have Ike and Mak using swords and a upgrade chance comes. However, there are 8 units on the team. That's only a 1 in 4 chance that the unit being upgraded is a sword user assuming equal chances.

What? Why are you applying probability? Are you suggesting that the player rolls a die each time in order to determine which unit gets a forge? That's stupid. The player distributes forges so that the team performs best. Each unit would eventually get one. When that happens to a sword user, Mist will get a cast-off. You act like there is a possibility that this never happens.

There are various ways she can get a weakened one that nobody wants anyway.

Everybody wants one.

Fine, "want" was stupid of me. You could argue Mia "wants" a speedwing just for the +4 avo even though it goes better elsewhere. The idea is that Mist is going to be the best destination of a weakened forge at one point or another. If the player is too dense to figure it out, that isn't actually relevant here since we apparently are assuming that the tier player is quite a bit better than you.

Or you can simply make one for her if people are willing to forge for Rhys of all people.

The difference between forging a tome for Rhys and a sword for mist is that the only reason we would forge for Mist is to make her a training blade. If we forge for Rhys, it may be pricy, but damn it he's gonna use it to actually fight!

What? Mist uses hers to fight, too. She 2RKOs or better. Even armors get 2RKOd. Most of them, anyway. Seriously, I checked. At 20/1, even with just supporting Titania and Jill rather than replacing one with Boyd, she can 4HKO Armors in chapter (somewhere between 18 and 21, I forget which). Considering Rhys isn't ORKOing, what's the difference? Mist is in fact a better destination of a forge because you can

a: trade it to other units for use (no other Light users)

b: she's more likely to meet enemies

How is Rhys superior?

You have a very specific definition of phenomenal, and it is rather underwhelming.

You worship the ground Titania walks on for less during the same time period. Without Rhys, it becomes a lot harder to progress and you will need to waste multiple turns using vulneraries; potentially multiple times too.

Titania cuts turns. Rhys gains experience by healing people for 1 or 2 hp. Titania will cut a lot more turns than Rhys during early game. And Titania actually remains your best unit even past the point that Oscar promotes. Granted by around 18 or 19 Oscar and Kieran can start competing with Titania, but she's still among your best for the rest of the game. Rhys isn't on the same planet for this comparison.

And again with the strawman of other people's argument. You are acting like Titania's chapter 1 to 8 are the only thing we looked at to determine her placement.

Apparently the entire game is chapter 14 and 15.

You set the standard with Titania praise. Not me.

Yep, definitely a strawman. Have you learned nothing since you came here? Do you ever even read things with the intent to understand what people are saying? Titania is where she is for being your best for around 16 to 18 entire chapters, and still being in your top 4 or 5 for the rest of the game. Possibly higher than that. How is that even remotely the same? And the fact that you are spouting this crap clearly shows that every time we have posted anything about Titania you have placed your head in the sand (or in the words of Int, turned your Reality Distortion Field to max) and made sure not to notice that we weren't saying what you seemed to think we are. I'm obviously sick of it.

And who is trying to promote her before 15 anyway?

Anyone who wants to train her swords up without having her weak STR tink or deal laughably low damage to enemies. Weren't people screaming at Astrid for doing something almost identical, except without the risk of being countered?

Did you even run the numbers? Go check what a 20/1 Mist does with a steel sword in chapter 16. Remember to give her +2 or +4 from her supports, depending on where the player decided to apply Mist's epic support ability. There really isn't a wrong answer here for Boyd, Titania, Jill. They are all good options for Mist. Apparently, you'll be surprised by her damage since it certainly isn't "laughably low". Besides, 2 arms scrolls let her use Sonic Sword at base when you really need it, and I've been suggesting you use her to kill things other units fail to kill and to do so with generic weapons. A unit with canto is so obviously superior for the job that I shouldn't have to explain how that one works in Mist's favour. The "risk" of being countered is the chance that Mist misses, and with swords that obviously isn't happening particularly often.

And what is it you want out of a support battery? You must have insanely high standards if Mist is nearly "meh". She's easily one of the best supporters in the game. Only Ike and Oscar are potentially beating her.

Consistency. Mist does not have it. Not with the way she's being forced to act at least. Supports only have a range of 3. If you move out of that range, it's gone. Entirely. I'm sure you are aware of that fact. If I have a unit who needs to move about and risks fading out of range due to how she's being forced to act, she can easily end up in range only 1/2 the time; or even less depending on the situation. I wouldn't have a problem with Mist's battery (well, not as much. She's still overhyped) if she were using physics constantly and could thusly be where ever she was needed, but she isn't. What's worse is I can't even figure out HOW she's being used. Is she a impromptu sage? Then why all the work for something Soren could do with the boots? Is she a mounted healer who can chip in with an okay attack? Then why are we discussing having her attack people with melee attacks? Or her using the SS so much? WHAT THE HELL IS MIST EVEN DOING?!

You know, if you read our posts with the intent to learn rather than nitpick/whine/whatever, you might have gotten it already. Mist is like Jack of all Trades. She does what is needed. She is like a midfielder. Are they an attacker? Are they a defender? Oh wait, they are supposed to do it all. She heals when she needs to because she can. Need someone nearby healed? Pull out the mend and heal it then use canto to position for whatever you want. Do you want her to stand where Titania can use the support to attack something on player phase then move away? Do so. Want her to position for Titania's enemy phase? Do so. Or hey, maybe what needs healing is too far to do that. Pull out physic. Now you can use 8 move + canto + physic to get that unit and still support. Maybe nothing needs healing and you only have a few units to make a push? Pull out the SS, blitzkrieg with her and the other pallies + Jill/Marcia, then position for support. What? She doesn't need to KO? Well, Boyd can kill something with his 1 range weapon for good accuracy and Mist can run up and trade it out for something more enemy phase appropriate. Heck, Mist can finish off what Boyd attacks if he misses or she can kill something in range of that trade spot. Or maybe there is an enemy that was weakened on enemy phase and your pallies need to kill stuff further ahead. Well, Mist can finish that thing off and then run forward to position to give supports to help Boyd/Jill/Titania with killing whatever was further ahead. Mist can even potentially use their support back when she attacked since she moved first to support them further ahead.

The question isn't "what is mist even doing". It's more like "what can't she do"? Answer of course is be like the units in tiers above her. She's only upper mid. She's not going to godmode like they can. Mist can do all those things, but some of them she can't do repeatedly. Like use the SS. It only lasts so long. The trouble with "jack of all trades" is the whole "master of none" that comes after it. Though I'd argue that by the time she hits B staves she's pretty much got that one nailed and thus is actually a master of one of them. She even tosses in the benefit of 8 move with rescue if you really want to send some units ahead (she could even rescue Reyson, allowing 4 units to be shot really far ahead). Reyson with boots + Knight Ring can go forward 5 squares, sing for them, then move 5 squares back to where he got rescued to. That is, if the other spot is too dangerous. This of course allows Reyson to sing pretty much anywhere without ever being at risk. Though you can't do it too often. And hey, if you hammerne the rescue staff, it's not like that isn't still a benefit for Mist either way. Whether it is the Rescue staff or the SS, it's still something Mist does that others can't.

And no, I would rate any pairing without such a huge discrepancy in their movements as Mist and Jill have (mounted healer without physics needs to heal with Mend and healing > supports vs. a flyer who will be passing over terrain and around units to complete her job. Not a good match) as better unless the element matchings just flat-out blew. I would honestly say Devdan is a superior support battery if Nephenee had a element more complimentary to his.

Ignoring Titania and Boyd. Even if you are right about the trouble with Mist and Jill (which you aren't, since it isn't nearly the constant problem you seem to suggest), there are still those two. The point is that she has similar move and gives a really good affinity.

You can. I've done it. Though you have to acknowledge that Mist is pretty aweful before she hits D. She heals only 14 HP. Base Rhys heals 20.

So? Not a huge problem, actually. 14 is better than nothing, and it gives you a second healer. Lets them be in two places. Mist + Rhys > Rhys alone for those chapters. Consider Mist to be neutral at worst for those chapters.

Free EXP. Lots of free EXP.

But for RHYS. What is a promoted Rhys even giving you?

All those things cost resources. Lots of resources. Most of them are redundant anyways. Why canto and have 8 move when I can just heal with a physic? There is no point. Mist offers supports that put her at risk at well (frontliners will be taking the brunt of enemy phase, mounted units even more so. Mist needs to be near the front line for both). 8 move and canto aren't an advantage. They are a fix to Mist's problem of being a overall mediocre unit. Throughout the game, Rhys has greater range due to the power of physics, making him the superior healer. Other units can fill Mist's 'role' with either less resources (Rhys to fill the role of a healer) or with better results (Tormod, who also needs less resources). The only reason people hype Mist is because of the wow factor of having a healer perform well in combat. Mist is a syphon on resources, one that never shuts off, and her only return is a laughably limited amount of kills for resources better spent on other units. Mist. Sucks.

Why canto and have 8 move? Physic can't always reach the other areas when your team splits, or if they can reach they can't canto along to keep up after they get in position. And extra move starts to add up when you get past turn 2. And Mist isn't too much at risk. 3 spaces back doesn't face as many enemies as the front line, and thus Mist can handle what comes her way. Most of the time she doesn't even get attacked much, but when you can see that she will you just give her the right weaopns for it. And Rhys' greater range doesn't exist. Even on turn 1, 2 extra physic range is countered by 2 extra move. After that Mist wins because she is further ahead each turn. I'll tell you a secret: 2 + 2 = 4. Wow, I know. 4 > 2. Oh wow. You know, if you didn't have me you might not have known that after 2 turns Mist is beating Rhys in range. "The only reason people hype Mist" is because we are able to see what you apparently aren't. To even approach Mist, Tormod needs the one thing that he can never ever get: the Knight Ring. And he'll still fail for the support thing. So far, you've managed to say not to use Mist because there are other units who can be worse at what she can do, only you need 2 units to fail at what she does well all on her own. I have to say, you aren't exactly giving compelling arguments.

Still better than what Mist has.

5 purges is better than Mist? Are you even trying?

With less range and for a smaller amount.

Less range until turn 2, and that's only if he's actually beating her by 6 magic (or 5 if she has an odd number for magic). After that, she out-ranges him. Granted, he can still heal for 5 or 6 hp more, but how often does that even matter? Rhys can't compete with her for anything else. All he seems to have is +5 hp healing.

Other units seem to get there just fine. Sages and units with only 6 move do well, so why not him?

Who said they get there fine? You must not go quickly, though. Let's look, here.

9 move v 6 move. Unlike some other fe games, these units with 9 move are basically immortal ORKOin machines. Part of the immortality comes from the ability to heal them, of course, since they don't live forever. But they are durable enough that they will live until they can be healed. Thus, they move forward. 3 turns later that is 27 move vs. 18. What is even left to reach? It took them 3 turns to get where the pallies got in 2 turns.

He doesn't need one. He just needs to be consistently capable of killing off a weakened enemy or weakening one for another to beat Mist.

Let me get this straight: Mist has 8 move and canto and can kill weakened things and keep moving. Rhys has 6 move and can kill weakened things but can't keep moving. Somehow this is a win for Rhys. Wow. And Mist can weaken for others, too. Unless you are running around with underleveled Rolfs, Rhys isn't actually doing anything that Mist can't, but she is doing things he can't.

You act as if the enemy is at the limit of movement and that there never will be stragglers or points where the party simply can not move faster for various reasons. Both of which happen frequently. 5 move is more than fine enough.

about bold: hey Int, should I even bother?

Anyway, what exactly is holding your party back? Most of your pallies, by chapter 18 anyway, are steamrollers. Sure, if there was a group of enemies 2 or 3 deep then there might be problems, but enemies aren't like that most of the time. Sure, there are multiples, but in general if you kill one of them you can take your full move after (hello canto). Even if you need to kill two enemies before that, only one of your pallies will be held back. Or you could send Jill first if there is land to take advantage of and everyone gets to go forward. Considering people have concerns about 7 move units, how is 5 okay?

Why does Mist care? She is a healer. She doesn't need to keep up with the front lines at all. Why does Rhys care? He is a hea-

Oh. Wait. Mist NEEDS to keep up to the front line to perform her role and if she falls behind for any reason she becomes immediatly worse than Rhys. Rhys doesn't care and could feasibly perform his role as a healer with a movement rate of 2 and still kick her ass.

So you are saying that a unit that can only heal and will eventually fall out of range of even physic is superior to a unit that can heal almost as well but also provides supports to make the group better, provides canto-killing of weakened units to allow the army to keep steamrolling, and can on occasion pull out the SS and obliterate enemies as well. That's incredible. A unit that can only do one thing is a better than a unit that does multiple things each of which well enough for it to work (which is what is important here).

At a cost that is extra-ordinarally high for a reward that is extra ordinarily low. 55 kills. Fifty. Five. Kills. For mass infusions of Bexp, arms scrolls, forges, TWO unique weapons, AND THE ENTIRE HAMMERINE STAFF!

IF ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME EVEN BLINKED IN THAT DIRECTION FOR THEIR RESOURCE USE THEY WOULD BE EXECUTED TO LOW! MIA WAS PUT IN LOW BECAUSE SHE NEEDED WRATH TO BE TRUELY GOOD! JUST WRATH! IF ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME EVEN BLINKED IN THAT DIRECTION FOR THEIR RESOURCE USE THEY WOULD BE EXECUTED TO LOW!

In Mist's own tier, the most damning item I can find to be a good unit is Brom needing the KW, or Ilyana needing a speedband. Yet every unit in the damned tier is a solid unit who can easily be good and needs far less resources to be passible. So why should Mist get treated better? Because she's a loli?

You just couldn't help but toss in more strawmen. She's not taking the entire staff. Sure, that's not as many kills, but who the hell said she's taking that many kills with the SS? That's not the point. She can when you need it, which isn't too often. She's one of the best options for the killing of weakened things. She makes your other units nearby better because her supports are better.

Also, you are complaining that others in the tier don't use as much? Who cares. In RD, the top tiers are full of units that take things. Haar grabs a speedwing. Ike is taking the 3-9 speedwing if anything happens to his speed that you can't fix with blossom or bexp. Titania grabs the other early speedwing. Mia grabs Ike and Adept and possibly Cancel (keeping Vantage and taking a forge are virtually irrelevant). Gatrie grabs a crown. Janaff/Ulki take a lot of bexp in a game with a lot less than this one. Or Adept. Or an energy drop. Mist taking bexp (in a game where it is plentiful), two arms scrolls, the SS, and perhaps one use of hammerne (though I've said repeatedly that it isn't necessary for her to be worthy of her spot), is hardly something to bawl over.

Also, one of the reasons Mia was so low wasn't just people whined over her taking wrath. It was their concern that the player would be too dumb to keep her away from 2 range units. Okay, that's my attitude on it, anyway. They brought up the 2 range guys, and since it is easy to handle those problems, I have to assume that they just couldn't figure it out. Anyway, she's not there now, so clearly this list is more willing to recognize optimal destinations of resources than it used to be. And hence, your complaint about Mia is another non-sequitor.

If her primary use is a healer, then why are we channeling all these resources into her attacking skill? It's not her primary use, it won't be used often, and it's not the point of using her. Besides, if she's attacking only when no one needs healing then why are you hyping up her offense at all? I wouldn't think it likely to go for any more than 24 turns without someone needing some degree of healing. So... GET YOUR ARGUMENT STRAIGHT! Is she a healer, or a fighter? If she's a healer, why are we having her fight and investing so many resources in someone who can only do a average job at best in combat when there are cheaper and better healers out there? If she is a fighter, same thing except for fighting?

You are introducing a false dilemma. You seem to think that she can either be a healer or a fighter. You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible to be good at both, or to apply both during a playthrough. The simple fact is that what she does with the bexp is better than allowing a unit to overkill enemies it already kills. The bexp is irrelevant. The arms scrolls go better for giving her SS use than anything proposed so far. You lot have come up with things like using them to allow Soren and Ilyana to use Meteor when you already have a meteor user if it is so important. Clearly, these are minor resources that aren't actually problematic to give her, and hence they go fine on Mist. These things are also responsible for allowing her to support those other units. If Mist didn't get these things, those units wouldn't get their supports (level 7 tier 1 Mist and her 5 move is clearly not going to be a very good supporter for 9 move Titania, is she?). Rhys is not a viable alternative for Titania. Jill goes from getting Mist some of the time to getting nothing all of the time. Even 33% of the time is a significant improvement.

Also, I love this most of all:

"Besides, if she's attacking only when no one needs healing then why are you hyping up her offense at all? I wouldn't think it likely to go for any more than 24 turns without someone needing some degree of healing."

Are you high? What is this saying? It sounds like you say that she'll need to heal at least once within 24 turns. Well duh! But that still leaves, what, 23 turns to attack? Are you saying that needing to heal once out of 24 turns suddenly means she isn't attacking at all? That makes 0 sense.

I'm thinking she'll be healing 3 out of 4 turns. Probably. Maybe 2 out of 4 sometimes depending on avo success of your other units. That still leaves a lot of time to attack stuff. 1 out of 4 over how many turns? In 100 turns, that's already 25 turns to attack. Totally worth spending what would otherwise go to waste.

Because she's an aweful fighter even in the early game. Just less so. Having her run ahead is suicide, especially since she lacks supports at that point in the game.

WHAT? That doesn't make any sense for what I said. We aren't promoting her early game. We are waiting for chapter 16 to 18. As stated by Int multiple times, and maybe by myself already. By then, her supports are flying. Jill is already at A for chapter 18. Boyd is already C (nearing B.). Titania is already B (nearing A if you don't go A something else). Admittedly, Boyd takes the longest, but oh well? And she isn't "run"ing "ahead". She is running with those other high move units. You know, some of whom she is supporting? Why would she be ahead of everyone? She's ahead of, say, Rhys, of course, but the paladins? And with her durability she isn't exactly in danger of dying. Particularly since you aren't sending her in alone.

[Interceptor]

about bold: hey Int, should I even bother?

It's fine to ride the merry-go-round and enjoy the lights and music, as long as you realize that you aren't actually going to travel somewhere.

[Dark Sage]

While I do disagree with Snowy, I still think you need to be respectful Narga. This is not something a mod should go around doing.

Anyway other discussion is Callil vs Tormod.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

I don't blame Narga. If I had to respond to that massive wall of text, I'd be angry too.

[Dark Sage]

So would I, but calling them idiots is a stretch.

Narga, just ignore it. Instead, let's discuss whether or not Tormod should move up on the tier list.

[Soren37]

This is a minor thing about the Arm Scrolls going to Mist, but Astrid might want one of them, too. She joins at level 1 with a D rank in bows with Paragon. She'll gain levels quickly without increasing her Bow Rank, so she might want one to try and balance out the level gains with the Weapon Ranks.

[Interceptor]

I don't see what on earth that Astrid would want the Arms Scroll for. The useful C-rank bow for her is the Laguz Bow, which doesn't strike me as particularly worth burning a Scroll for. The laguz in Ch13 are already weak to normal bows, the ones in Ch14 don't move, and the ones in Ch15 we don't want to kill (and she sucks in the sand anyway).

Once she promotes for Axes, iirc her minimum Bow rank is now C regardless, and she's only 25 shots away from the Brave Bow if you actually wanted to use it for some reason.

[Dark Sage]

I guess to start using the Killer Bow early?

[Narga_Rocks]

While I do disagree with Snowy, I still think you need to be respectful Narga. This is not something a mod should go around doing.

Then what would be the point in responding? It's like you want to spoil my fun.

So would I, but calling them idiots is a stretch.

On the one hand, nobody likes being called stupid. But on the other hand, I've never actually modded people for insulting other people's intelligence. It's practically a past-time for tier list discussers (okay, not all of them. I'm aware there are people that refuse to do this type of thing). To disallow that type of statement would be to remove a lot of the colour in these discussions. I simply don't think it to be worth it. If it spins out of control then it could perhaps need to be done, and certainly posts devoted to calling the other person an idiot wouldn't be allowed. But for the moment, I don't see the problem.

I don't see what on earth that Astrid would want the Arms Scroll for. The useful C-rank bow for her is the Laguz Bow, which doesn't strike me as particularly worth burning a Scroll for. The laguz in Ch13 are already weak to normal bows, the ones in Ch14 don't move, and the ones in Ch15 we don't want to kill (and she sucks in the sand anyway).

Once she promotes for Axes, iirc her minimum Bow rank is now C regardless, and she's only 25 shots away from the Brave Bow if you actually wanted to use it for some reason.

I guess to start using the Killer Bow early?

I'm guessing he doesn't think the killer bow is worth it. I'm not certain about that, though it is possible. I like having a chance to KO, though a steel forge for her is probably killing a lot already if you got her level high enough. Level 11 Astrid only has 24 mt with the forge, though, so maybe the killer is worth it. At level 16 she has 26 mt with it. She does miss things like fighters and armors, but she wouldn't actually manage to kill the armors with a single crit from a killer anyway and she is pretty close to 4HKOing with a forge. Meaning a 2 round either way, but the killer needs a crit. I think it only matters for like bosses and fighters and some promoted enemies (including laguz, but there are only two that she would encounter in the near future and they are at the end of chapter 14).

Chances are, there are enough targets for which the killer isn't relevant that Astrid can be plenty busy without needing the arms scrolls.

[Interceptor]

I don't think that Astrid should be spending hardly any time at all as a Bow Knight. You need about 1100 BEXP to take her from base level to 20/1 (and that's with using BEXP at level 20 for a brute-force promotion, no Master Seal). She really needs her promo bonuses in order to compete.

The best way to use her, I've found, is to get whatever potshot CEXP that you can in Ch13-15, and then plow her all the way to 20/1 in time for Ch16. Now she has decent STR/AS parameters, Axes, and 9MV, which allows her to be a good fighter. Her durability is not that great, and she will be relying on forges a lot, but that's Astrid for you.

[Soren37]

Okay then. It's just something that I've seen suggested before, so I thought I'd mention it.

[Anouleth]

Was Mordecai's incredibly useful Smite utility taken into account when determining his current tier position? Because I've found it invaluable to position units such as Marcia.

[Interceptor]

I highly doubt that Mordecai's position was based on your playthrough.

[Colonel M]

about bold: hey Int, should I even bother?

Drag MaxKnight in here. They can be butt buddies.

As for Astrid, I think forges are sufficient enough for her, and then like Int said a sprinkle of BEXP to help her out. Thank God for Paragon.

Although I have to agree with the others Narga. While the massive wall of text doesn't mean much, I think this is taking overreacting a little bit too much. Still, I can see how it can make others angry (since I've done it before, but mainly for mini-trolling).

Edited July 23, 2010 by Colonel M

[Zynac]

Anyway other discussion is Callil vs Tormod.

Tormod is pretty hard to train, and he does have celerity which helps him be worth somthing but at the same time hes gonna need a good helping of bonus exp and favoritism to make him max level. Calil has the problem of availibility cuz shes basically never around. I would personally take some one whos available even if they come weak cuz then u have a long enough time to make them worthwhile. I think when it comes to finished product potential tormod wins because of that 2 extra movement. my vote is with tormod but i realize he has many flaws