FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

I'm still wondering where you got 14 from. Can you show me your (inept attempt at) math?

10 * 3 = 30 wexp.

Now he has D in 10 goes.

How in the hell are 4 staff uses getting him 40 wexp for a C? In order to get to a C for physic, he is going to need 10 + 14/8 (8 comes from the 5 wexp staves). Unfortunately, only torch and unlock (doesn't really exist) are actually +5, and Tormod doesn't get any FoW chapters and thus can't even use the damn thing. Hence, Tormod needs 24 staff uses to get to C. I believe I said this earlier. I hate getting ignored when I am correcting math, since that means that people still spout incorrect conclusions until they finally pay attention. Pay attention.

I made an error, I looked at Required WEXP instead of Total WEXP. I apologize for the error.

However, no matter what error I made, the tone of your post is completely uncalled for. As a mod, you should know better than to make personal attacks against others. I have seen this in your own tier list and now in this one and it is entirely unacceptable. You will treat people with they respect they deserve, no matter if they agree with you or not.

Oh. My. God. Are you honestly supporting the idea of Rhys with a forge? Have you even checked to see how expensive even +4 mt is? If you are suggesting maybe +1 mt and -whatever wt needed to reach 1, then fine. I can live with a forge like that, I suppose. Though that should obviously mean that if you are willing to waste a chapter's forge on him, you shouldn't have any reasonable issues with doing the same for Mist (and monetarily you can afford a much better forge for her). At least a +3 mt forge can be made with a wt reduction to allow her to use it without AS loss. But you know Mist's biggest advantage for forges? She can get hand-me-downs. There are no other units that use Light forges, so you are making a forge uniquely for a terrible combatant (lucky to double anything) and can't even make them particularly strong.

Why is money such an issue? We get 20,000 at the C10 base, lots of sellable gems, half-useless skills, stuff like Statue Frags etc. Rhys not doublign just means the forge lasts longer. If money is a big problem, then we should seriously considering selling those Arms Scrolls for 8,000 a pop.

[Dark Sage]

Dependent on supports is stupid yeah.

So basically ignore that and just read the gist of it.

You know what? Screw that. I'm bailing. Sorry for wasting your time. Just thought I had something there.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess I did get carried away there.

It was Cynthia who suggested the light forge anyway. I don't really support it, but meh.

Anyway, the point was that Mist takes up too many resources. She needs Arms Scrolls, lots of BEXP, dependent on supports. Eventually the Sonic sword is going to run out, and then she's going to get beaten badly. Offense outside of forges is terrible, defense isn't particularly good even with supports and getting her to the point to compete with Rhys? Lots of BEXP dumping.

Let's see.

Arms Scrolls that don't go better anywhere else.

Bexp that you have unless you have a team of like 12 (causing everyone to be worse, not just Mist) or are exclusively using units like Mia, Marcia, Jill, Neph, Brom, Tormod, Astrid, Makalov, Rolf (I don't mean one or two of them. That's fine. I mean all of them. Then you'll have trouble getting Mist up to par without costing you someone else)

Supports that benefit others and Mist is their best option and they are amazing units you should probably be using anyway.

So, what's the problem exactly? Besides, 49 uses of SS is more than enough for the whole game since she isn't primarily a combat unit. Even 25 + 15 = 40 (remember Runesword) is probably sufficient. I still don't buy that you'll ever run out of that plus a couple of iron/steel sword hand-me-downs from Mak/Zihark/Mia/Ike when they get upgrades. 10 uses on a primary combat unit like those 4 will quickly break and be useless. Better to use fresh ones. 10 uses on Mist should easily last more than a chapter (remember, SS + killing weakened things with generic weapons). Heck, she'll eventually be strong enough for an Iron Blade or even a Steel Blade. Not to mention if she ever hits A swords (which I'm assuming what with the Runesword I mentioned) then she can use the purchasable Silver Swords. I'm not seeing the downside you are seeing.

And even just as a mounted healer + support battery that's still better than what Rhys gives you, so even 10/1 Mist is winning this one.

Rhys has phenomenal early game.

Define "phenomenal"

Mist's early game is crap. Look at all that BEXP I have to feed her. That's expensive. And it just makes her comparable to Rhys.

What are you smoking? Her "crap" early game lasts precisely 10 heals. And now, without a drop of bexp, she is functionally equivalent to Rhys. Oh noes. So much bexp I have to feed her. Whatever am I going to do now that I lost 0 bexp? So expensive.

Have you not even been paying attention?

Basically, you're doing all that just to make her a Rhys clone at Tier 1. Whoop de doo.

Why do a mere 10 heals sound so painful when you speak of it?

Then at tier 2, she's overdependent on forges and SS. SS is strong and nice, but it's not going to last forever, and they're rare.

You so haven't been paying attention if that is all you can think of her. It's like you've been covering your ears/eyes for like more than half of the argument.

I guess I shouldn't be doing this. It's been awhile since I've played FE9, so really, I should probably bail now.

Huh. This with your next post. Well, I already typed all that anyway.

Sorry about the tone. I hate being ignored (I pointed it out nicely (or I think it was nicely) three or more pages ago). This one worked. I had a hard time deciding whether to leave the tone that way or not. In the end, you noticed this time.

As for his forge, you could argue he gets a free 8000 to spend on his forge since Mist took the scrolls (if she doesn't take the scrolls, you could sell them). However, I'm wondering why the sages can use the scrolls and Rhys can get a super expensive forge.

Ignoring that:

Mist can get a max mt, hit, min wt forge for a mere 6884.

700 + 2871 + 1361 + 1952.

13 mt, 100 hit, 7 wt.

Rhys can get a max mt light with no other benefits for: 23300. (22500 + 800)

max mt with min wt costs another 681, so 23981.

Mist can get two epic steel sword forges + the cost of her two arms scrolls for a lower price than Rhys can get a 7 mt, 1 wt Light tome with 80 hit. Well, at least he gets 40 uses instead of just 35. But then I gave her two swords and two arms scrolls and still saved money, so 70 uses. At least with his skill advantage he approaches her hit. If he gets Mia nearby he matches/wins.

Basically, if we acknowledge even the theoretical possibility of giving Rhys a forge, we may as well accept that money is irrelevant and the 8000 sink for Mist to get scrolls nobody uses better isn't either. I'd question the wisdom of spending a chapter on Rhys' forge, but I acknowledge that there will be times all your main units have all they need/want and you may as well make a forge for Rhys/Mist. But then shouldn't we consider how well Mist is doing with her 13 mt forge and +2 mt from supports, possibly +3 or 4 if she gets a B or A with Boyd? Also, Mist has the advantage of likely getting a couple of 10 use forges at no cost since nobody else will want them when they get upgrades. Rhys can perhaps get a forge, though I question how powerful we can make the other forges if we need to save up for Rhys. But even still Mist wins the forge competition. Particularly since with a forge Mist will often leave enemies with fewer hp than Rhys would. Sometimes even KOing. Introduce forges into the equation and frankly I think Mist starts winning by even more.

A forge isn't going to make Rhys OHKO things he 2HKOs, so no help there. Mist will be getting a fair amount more def, too. Minimum 3 from her supports, since Mordy, Jill, and Titania all mirror def, so even with A Boyd, B something she gets at least 3 def (and A Boyd B something leads to 4 mt). Rhys can get a small hp lead, but the def lead is enough to turn that into a decent win for Mist and the res lead isn't too relevant when sages mostly tink Mist anyway (and when they don't it's like 3 or 4 damage). And Mist can Runesword for a small amount of time and be immortal while still managing to double a fair amount of enemies. Rhys starts to get doubled if he straps on Nosferatu.

Mist still has 8 move, access to an I WIN button against non-ravens and myrms that aren't weighed down (and Mist does more than Rhys if she has SS anyway where Ravens are concerned). (About the myrms, seriously, there are 14 AS myrms in chapter 19). Mist helps 2 other units. Mia benefits from Rhys, yes, but Mia isn't as good as Titania, Jill, Boyd. Mist is more useful for charging maneuvers since she can kill and run. Mist can help with rescue chains to bring units like Boyd further forward. If not for the availability advantage of Rhys, the tier gap should be a no-brainer. Even with the availability, I still think a tier gap is justified.

[-Cynthia-]

Promoted Mist is certainly better than a promoted Rhys. I was just pointing out that Rhys is not locked to either heavy tomes or basic Light tomes.

Rhys's positioning is based a lot on his early contributions. Rhys's healing does have its uses, but his durability issues limit this somewhat. I would probably say he's more useful than Gatrie though, since Rhys is around for more chapters and Gatrie is just a good backup attacker for Titania. Rhys is useful when Gatrie is gone as well. Then Rhys and Gatrie have their uses as the game goes on, but neither are particularly good units.

@Marcia in High *brought up a while ago* I could see her there. Keep in mind that Boyd helps out in earlygame chapters though, which shaves turns. Marcia has some durability issues before Tanith and doesn't ORKO that often (better with a forge). She doesn't have many chapters where she's the only flier able to leverage her utility, but Jill existing doesn't really make Marcia terribly redundant.

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

@Narga I guess so yeah.

Rhys is the only healer at the beginning. One heal from him can restore a character to nearly full health and he can build up Mia support early. That's very nice.

It wasn't the ten heals that bothers me so much, it's how to get her up to being great. Before all that, she has no supports activated, making her relatively fragile. That is kind of crappy. With a mend early on, she heals the equivalent of Rhys with a heal. That's not particularly good.

The point I was really trying to make was Mist was overrated. She's hyped to hell, and well, I really think she's not as great as you're making her out to be.

The whole using used forges cements my point about being forge dependent though.

And I really hate that tone you used. It's like saying, "You are an idiot, blind, deaf, and have no right to be here." It's just nasty is all. I know you're frustrated, but that was unnecessary. I wasn't ignoring you in the slightest, so stop. It's not something a mod should do, and if you keep doing that, I'm not going to be feeling welcome around here.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Shadow Mir]

@Narga I guess so yeah.

Rhys is the only healer at the beginning. One heal from him can restore a character to nearly full health and he can build up Mia support early. That's very nice.

It wasn't the ten heals that bothers me so much, it's how to get her up to being great. Before all that, she has no supports activated, making her relatively fragile. That is kind of crappy. With a mend early on, she heals the equivalent of Rhys with a heal. That's not particularly good.

The point I was really trying to make was Mist was overrated. She's hyped to hell, and well, I really think she's not as great as you're making her out to be.

The whole using used forges cements my point about being forge dependent though.

While the Mia support can build up early, there's the problem of Rhys being stuck in the backlines because he's as fragile as wet tissue paper.

At any rate, Mist actually has good support prospects, whereas Rhys just has Mia. And as mentioned earlier, Rhys gets squat on the defensive end from his supports.

And even if Mist is overrated, it isn't exactly to the extent that I'd call "being hyped to hell", since Soren (in both this and RD) and Lilina (different game, but still...) get a ton of hype themselves.

Even if Mist is dependent on forges, I'd say Rhys is in the same boat himself.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Anouleth]

@Narga I guess so yeah.

Rhys is the only healer at the beginning. One heal from him can restore a character to nearly full health and he can build up Mia support early. That's very nice.

By the time Rhys is building Mia support, Mist exists. Mist has 4 kickass supports to Rhys' 1, and they're ALL better than Mia.

And so what if Rhys is the only healer at the beginning? His durability is awful so in crowded maps like C2 or C4 or C6, he's limited in what he can do. And it's already been acknowledged that Rhys has an availability advantage, it's just questionable whether that's more valuable than Mist kicking his ass post-promotion.

It wasn't the ten heals that bothers me so much, it's how to get her up to being great. Before all that, she has no supports activated, making her relatively fragile. That is kind of crappy. With a mend early on, she heals the equivalent of Rhys with a heal. That's not particularly good.

So what? Neither Rhys or Mist wants to expose themselves to enemies due to inability to counter-attack and poor durability. So the fact that Rhys needs to avoid enemies slightly less than Mist is not a great point in his favour. Neither of them even need to expose themselves to enemies to do their job.

Mist is healing 24-26 with Mend. That's good enough to not care that Rhys can do 34-36.

The point I was really trying to make was Mist was overrated. She's hyped to hell, and well, I really think she's not as great as you're making her out to be.

Yeah, hyped all the way into the lofty world of Upper Mid, along with gods like Brom and Soren and Volke.

Clearly, if she's being hyped, you can point out something that Soren can do to deserve being above her. Hopefully, something that isn't 'use siege tomes'.

The whole using used forges cements my point about being forge dependent though.

Congrats, she is indeed entirely dependent on something that nobody else wants. If Mist picks up an old forge, it doesn't matter. Nobody cares if she digs some weapon nobody wants out of the convoy.

And she probably only needs one anyway. We are not deploying Mist for her combat (which makes it so utterly mystifying to me why we are still discussing it). She is not going to engage in much combat - maybe chipping an enemy here or there. God knows I haven't forged every chapter in my playthrough, and I have masses of cash on hand.

@Marcia in High *brought up a while ago* I could see her there. Keep in mind that Boyd helps out in earlygame chapters though, which shaves turns. Marcia has some durability issues before Tanith and doesn't ORKO that often (better with a forge). She doesn't have many chapters where she's the only flier able to leverage her utility, but Jill existing doesn't really make Marcia terribly redundant.

Boyd is not 'helping out in earlygame chapters'. Sure, his combat is terrific after a couple of levels, but Titania exists and can do anything. The only place I could see him helping out is like, maybe visiting a village in chapter 1 and helping with the chapter 2 and 7 Routs. He may as well not exist in other chapters.

Conversely, Marcia has a movement advantage and against some enemies, offense and durability advantages too due to higher speed and avoid-boosting supports later in the game. She also has rescue-drop utility.

[Interceptor]

They're going to use the same amount of BEXP to get to 20/1. Tormod might want it sooner I guess, but who cares? We just got a ton of BEXP from C15 anyway.

I feel like this has already been said several times already: since Mist can promote whenever she wants to, she can stay in tier 1 and level up with staves. This reduces her need for BEXP, eventually below that of what Tormod uses.

The advantage of promoting Mist early is to score use of her combat prowess. Admittedly, this is arguably worth doing, since she gives you an answer to Ch16's Myrmidons (which everyone else has trouble with), and gets tinked by Mages, all while having 8MV and Canto. But you don't have to do it, Mist is fine with playing healer for another handful of chapters, especially since every Physic staff has three levels in it for her.

Why is getting to C rank so urgent? I thought the entire point of this Mist>other healers was that she could use non-Physic staves to heal due to Mov.

The sooner he gets to C rank, the sooner that he can get Mist's healing flexibility. Tormod matches MV in tier 2, but losing out on Canto is problematic for him, since it means that he often has to choose between healing someone, and maintaining a good forward position.

Maybe Tormod up instead of Mist down?

In spite of the BEXP issues with Tormod, he seems fine and dandy up because of the MV bonus that allows him to compete with the Paladins... at least until the point you look at his stats and compare them to those of the other frontliners.

Tormod's HP/DEF is nothing to write home about. At 20/4, with 32 HP/10 DEF, he's getting 2HKO'ed by 26+ mt (Fighters basically), and 3HKO'ed by 21mt (aka a lot of stuff, and still borderline when he's not) at high HIT rates (over 50% in many cases). He has no real prospects for fixing this with supports, since the best that he can do defensively is some piddling +avoid from Sothe and Calill. The lack of Canto really aggravates this situation, because even the ability to attack from 2-range uncountered still restricts the type of kills that he can take and the positions that he'll have for Enemy Phase.

Basically, he's the weakest link on the front if he's fighting, and I consider this to be kind of a problem if he's ostensibly taking over the role of the army's healer. He's the unit most in need of healing if he's getting attacked, and he obviously can't heal himself. So how to you fix that? Keep him out of heavy combat, and waste some of his offensive potential? Deploy another unit to act as the primary healer, and undermine one of the things that's supposed to help him close the gap with Mist in the first place? There are no good options for Tormod in this situation.

Tormod also has problems getting to clean ORKOs on a lot of things, even if leveled higher than people generally expect him to be, but I guess those can be papered over to some extent with a Spirit Dust, some ninja magic with one of his full ATK support partners, smart use of El-tomes, and forges.

[Zkirsche]

@Marcia in High *brought up a while ago*

Yay, someone noticed it.

Keep in mind that Boyd helps out in earlygame chapters though, which shaves turns.

So does Ike/Boyd, and Oscar in comparison to Jill, who's around for an even less period of time than Marcia.

Marcia has some durability issues before Tanith

I believe a seraph robe would sort this out. She's one of the best units to give it to too (it's like, between Soren and her).

and doesn't ORKO that often (better with a forge).

Much better with a forge, actually. A level 15/0 Marcia has 24 atk with an iron forge. This ORKO's all but the halbs, the myrms she doesn't double (if there are any), the ravens who noone doubles and Norris. And if we're going for a 2 turn clear of chapter 15, a high levelled Marcia is essential. So this level could well be higher and thus this figure could increase.

She doesn't have many chapters where she's the only flier able to leverage her utility, but Jill existing doesn't really make Marcia terribly redundant.

She has every chapter in the world, however, where she is part of the smaller, and more unique, "group", rather than Boyd, who's in the simple "combat units" group.

[Interceptor]

the ravens who noone doubles

Ravens top out at 15 AS (with the majority being ~13), someone like Mia has no trouble with that. She can even ORKO with the Laguzslayer. This also means that he can double the boss, by the way.

Not that Ch13 is ever a huge deal beyond clearing the first ship and preventing a Game Over. You have plenty of time to clear it, and it basically turns into a self-improvement chapter.

[Dark Sage]

Gonna give up on the whole Mist vs Rhys thing. Sorry guys. I thought I had something here, but oh well.

If I get a better argument about something later, I'll post again. It will be improved.

Anyway I support Tormod up because his high move increases his flexibility since he can retreat pretty well if he needs to.

[Zkirsche]

Ravens top out at 15 AS (with the majority being ~13), someone like Mia has no trouble with that. She can even ORKO with the Laguzslayer. This also means that he can double the boss, by the way.

Kk, her and Zihark can probably double them, but anyoen else probably can't.

Not that Ch13 is ever a huge deal beyond clearing the first ship and preventing a Game Over. You have plenty of time to clear it, and it basically turns into a self-improvement chapter.

Well, we don't have anythign for chapter 14, chapter 15 and 12 her fantastic performance is obvious and by chapter 16 she should've promoted. So that leaves, like chapter 11, where her usefulness is really there just because she can double the cavaliers which most struggle against. Thus, with 23 atk from a forge, she can deal up to 24 damage to them - single digits, yum yum. You might argue MIa, but her atk is not nearly as stellar (max 16 damage compared to 24 with a forge) and she has less mov, no flight and no canto.

[Snowy_One]

Let's see.

Arms Scrolls that don't go better anywhere else.

And have such a minor impact that their best possible use aside from selling (giving them to Mist) has the impact of a fly on the game at best. Unless Mist is killing more than 12 foes, her best usage for the weapon is not using it at all. So yea... The best possible use for the scrolls is to make a character whom isn't meant for combat able to wield a weapon she wouldn't normally wield so that she can not use it. A level of Bexp > the arms scrolls.

Bexp that you have unless you have a team of like 12 (causing everyone to be worse, not just Mist) or are exclusively using units like Mia, Marcia, Jill, Neph, Brom, Tormod, Astrid, Makalov, Rolf (I don't mean one or two of them. That's fine. I mean all of them. Then you'll have trouble getting Mist up to par without costing you someone else)

Bexp spent is still Bexp spent. A level given to Mist to spike her up early so she can potentially not fail could also have been given to a combat unit. You know, someone who will be fighting all the time and have use for the stats as opposed to a healer who only desires the level-up for a early point of magic which she doesn't need to heal but rather to net 12 kills.

Supports that benefit others and Mist is their best option and they are amazing units you should probably be using anyway.

Rolf is not amazing. Mordi is slow and needs the band to be useful in the first place (no Muarim). This isn't to mention that he's... slow. Probably needs a wing or two. Titania doesn't care so much simply because she has two fires and a earth as well on her roster. Not to mention Ike and Boyd will always be on the front line and while Rhys is frail and whatnot, at least he doesn't need to move in order to do his job. So she has viable reasons for picking all three over Mist. Boyd has three waters already and Titania and doesn't really care because he gets 2 defense no matter whom he supports and the only difference between Titania and anyone else support-wise is 1-2 attack, which he has a load of. Still, others are superior since they are all frontliners and Mist is a healer. Jill will be identical to Titania, except moving out of range as well. Face it. Mist does not have amazing supports. End. Of. Story.

So, what's the problem exactly? Besides, 49 uses of SS is more than enough for the whole game since she isn't primarily a combat unit.

lolno. The SS has 25 uses and Mist will not be getting a Hammerine use. There are superior weapons out there, such as the VK, any killer or irreplaceable weapon, or, well, any weapon at all. The SS is used for wyvern sniping, not for making Mist a combatant.

Even 25 + 15 = 40 (remember Runesword)

The SS gives only 1 WEXP per use. Mist would need two Hammerines and 60 hits to make it to A rank. Way too costly when any sword unit with a half-dencent magic score (out of the single digets) can use it well if only for the healing effect.

I still don't buy that you'll ever run out of that plus a couple of iron/steel sword hand-me-downs from Mak/Zihark/Mia/Ike when they get upgrades.

You don't have to buy it. But a iron sword forge has 10 MT assuming maxed MT. A steel blade is needed to match that. The only reason a forge would remain would be the unlikely event all three netted forges, then for some reason moved on to steel forges in 1-2 chapters (and steel forges are the best until Silver swords/forges come)

Define "phenomenal"

Monopoly on healing until chapter 10 (Mist is as frail as heck and can barely heal in 9.)

And even just as a mounted healer + support battery that's still better than what Rhys gives you, so even 10/1 Mist is winning this one.

A mounted healer we don't need (The two boat levels require almost no movement and 14 and 15 are highly anti-Mist, 15 blatantly so.) and a support battery that is meh? Riiight.

What are you smoking? Her "crap" early game lasts precisely 10 heals.

Chapter 9 has a 8 turn limit on it. Even if Mist heals every turn (I can understand five to seven, but 8 is gonna require a bit of luck) she won't be at the same level till turn 3 of the next chapter. Need I remind you that the goal of the list is minimum turn counts? We will be trying to clear the chapter ASAP, so that's only 5-7 turns on 9 for her to heal anyways.

[/i]And now, without a drop of bexp, she is functionally equivalent to Rhys.[/i]

Mist joins at level 1. Assuming she healed every turn in 9, she has 88 experience. Rhys joined at level 4 in chapter 2. Even assuming he healed only half of the turn limit with a heal staff and never used anything else, he has 297 EXP. Not to mention access to D, if not C staves. Guess where Ward is? C. Mist needs 70 WEXP to get the Ward. Rhys already has it. At most, Mist has 24 Wexp at the end of 9 and needs 44 more. It's going to be two to three chapters before she can even touch it. Now granted, this means little to the team at the moment. However, it does mean Rhys is gaining loads more EXP, will promote sooner, and whatnot. Advantage, Rhys.

You so haven't been paying attention if that is all you can think of her. It's like you've been covering your ears/eyes for like more than half of the argument.

No. He's not been. Forged weapons rock. Bigtime. Even a Iron sword forge is superior to most weapons till Silver (and the only weapon that can beat them is a steel-sword forged, which can you get only one of per chapter). You would intentionally have to make a sword unit go without or make a sword specifically for Mist to get her to touch a forge. Even then, Mist is on the lower end of attack power at best and any combat with her could only be called babying (not to mention, isn't the whole point of Mist > Rhys that she is a mounted healer? You know... a healer... Who heals things. Why is she attacking instead of healing?). Even giving her the scrolls, unless we're dumping valued Hammerine uses on her as well, Mist's contribution is laughable and doesn't even exist until chapter 18. Rhys can get a physic stave in 15 or 16 for his use (ignoring steals) and can wield a tome from range (granted, not that good, but he can replace the tome. Mist can't replace the SS).

Not to mention the RS doesn't come till chapter 27. Even dumping all three uses of the Hammerine on Mist, she's not getting to that chapter with it intact unless she's specifically not fighting or fighting selectivly, not a normal or even part-time combatant (48 kills in 9 chapters averages out to something like only 5-6 kills a chapter. Weak for a combatant, and she would likely need to forfit a sizeable amount of healing to do so).

While I'm thinking about it, why isn't the seal counted among her costs? She's pitiful as a combatant and other units want to use it as well. Especially if 20/15 is the expected endgame. Then there's no point in not using it on a level 15 unit, and a level 10 unit would likely find an advantage in the early cap as well. Like earlier axes, crit boost, or whatnot.

[Anouleth]

I feel like this has already been said several times already: since Mist can promote whenever she wants to, she can stay in tier 1 and level up with staves. This reduces her need for BEXP, eventually below that of what Tormod uses.

Mist cannot promote whenever she wants to. Nor is she going to sit around in tier 1. Do me a favour and look at my playthrough. I beat Chapter 16 in 6 turns. There is NO room for a five move healer to sit around spamming Ward. I promoted her for that chapter purely so I could make use of her rescuing utility and free up a mounted unit to do something useful. If she could not be promoted, I would probably drop her permanently. Things do not get easier for Cleric Mist, only harder.

Nor is she ever, ever going to need less BEXP than Tormod. 5 move healer gaining 12 per turn, on some turns and not all turns versus 7 move mage that can attack things. Even if he's at base level, he is going to gain experience faster than her. And she doesn't have an initial level lead, either. If I had remembered to have her spam Ward, she could have maybe been at level 6 going into Chapter 16. And where from there? She certainly won't be gaining a level per chapter, which Tormod could do in his sleep.

I would also be unwilling to deploy unpromoted Mist in chapter 17. I struggled enough with Mist and a team full of combatants to 4-turn 17-1 when she had 8 move and could keep out of harm's way. She would probably not even get any healing in and just sit there and give support boosts to Mordecai. She'd be useless as part of the reinforcements in 17-2 since I'm 3-turning it. I suppose she can get a lot of healing in during 17-3, though.

The advantage of promoting Mist early is to score use of her combat prowess. Admittedly, this is arguably worth doing, since she gives you an answer to Ch16's Myrmidons (which everyone else has trouble with), and gets tinked by Mages, all while having 8MV and Canto. But you don't have to do it, Mist is fine with playing healer for another handful of chapters, especially since every Physic staff has three levels in it for her.

In order to double Chapter 16 Myrmidons, Mist needs 18AS. That's 20/2. How much BEXP do you want us to give her? For that much, I could take Tormod to 20/3, and he ORKOes everything under the sun and he does it with 2-range.

Tormod also has problems getting to clean ORKOs on a lot of things, even if leveled higher than people generally expect him to be, but I guess those can be papered over to some extent with a Spirit Dust, some ninja magic with one of his full ATK support partners, smart use of El-tomes, and forges.

There's also the Mage Band. Unless you want to play Snowy and staple it to Mia.

EDIT: Whoa, that's creepy, Snowy! Speak of the devil and all that.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Slowking

[Interceptor]

Mist cannot promote whenever she wants to.

Sure she can. Mist has easy access to Physic, so the primary reason to promote is so that she can stay up front and do the things that Mist is good at doing: healing, providing support bonuses, and occasionally hitting or killing things. Mist can afford to hang back and work on her MAG/SPD from the staff pool, the only cost is that it delays when those aforementioned perks arrive. It's a trade-off.

Do me a favour and look at my playthrough. I beat Chapter 16 in 6 turns.

Your playthrough says nothing about what you did in Ch16, other than your BEXP targets.

Things do not get easier for Cleric Mist, only harder.

What are you talking about? As soon as you have a Physic staff (or two), things suddenly get a lot easier, since Mist has a 5-square reach with heals, and gets 22 CEXP every time she does it. That's easier than what she was facing before with Mend.

Nor is she ever, ever going to need less BEXP than Tormod. 5 move healer gaining 12 per turn, on some turns and not all turns versus 7 move mage that can attack things. Even if he's at base level, he is going to gain experience faster than her. And she doesn't have an initial level lead, either. If I had remembered to have her spam Ward, she could have maybe been at level 6 going into Chapter 16. And where from there? She certainly won't be gaining a level per chapter, which Tormod could do in his sleep.

The difference here is how Tormod is taking all of his CEXP from the same pool as all of the other fighters, which is basically interchangeable with BEXP.

I would also be unwilling to deploy unpromoted Mist in chapter 17. I struggled enough with Mist and a team full of combatants to 4-turn 17-1 when she had 8 move and could keep out of harm's way. She would probably not even get any healing in and just sit there and give support boosts to Mordecai. She'd be useless as part of the reinforcements in 17-2 since I'm 3-turning it. I suppose she can get a lot of healing in during 17-3, though.

You have 10 deployment slots here, and your promoted Mist was obviously not a combatant, so you're going to have to explain why a 5-MV Mist with a Physic staff prevents a low-turn of this giant chapter. Also note that Mist is getting CEXP in 17-2, which is entirely the point to begin with. And thank you for noticing that Mist gets up to 10 turns of healing in 17-3, which is a lot of CEXP.

In order to double Chapter 16 Myrmidons, Mist needs 18AS. That's 20/2. How much BEXP do you want us to give her? For that much, I could take Tormod to 20/3, and he ORKOes everything under the sun and he does it with 2-range.

You just answered your own question, you know exactly how much BEXP that you need to give Mist for the job. I qualified it as optional, depending on the circumstances. I have no idea why you just insulted the both of us with this reply.

[Dark Sage]

Uh yeah, you just admitted she needs a lot of BEXP.

The point about Mist using Physic is that she does a worse job than Rhys in that arena. They get Physic around the same time and Rhys can just use it plain better in range and in healing prowess. Her supports are better, but there are chances that Titania will be taken and and Mordy isn't exactly optimal.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Shadow Mir]

Rolf is not amazing. Mordi is slow and needs the band to be useful in the first place (no Muarim). This isn't to mention that he's... slow. Probably needs a wing or two. Titania doesn't care so much simply because she has two fires and a earth as well on her roster. Not to mention Ike and Boyd will always be on the front line and while Rhys is frail and whatnot, at least he doesn't need to move in order to do his job. So she has viable reasons for picking all three over Mist. Boyd has three waters already and Titania and doesn't really care because he gets 2 defense no matter whom he supports and the only difference between Titania and anyone else support-wise is 1-2 attack, which he has a load of. Still, others are superior since they are all frontliners and Mist is a healer. Jill will be identical to Titania, except moving out of range as well. Face it. Mist does not have amazing supports. End. Of. Story.

Titania wants freaking RHYS over Mist when he's her worst support option by a crushing margin? What are you smoking??? Titania isn't exactly the queen of durability, so a full defense support would help her massively in that regard.

@ Dark Sage: Who exactly is a better option for Titania than Mist?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Dark Sage]

Ike and Boyd are pretty good.

And I agree that Rhys isn't an optimal support for Titania.

[Shadow Mir]

Ike and Boyd are pretty good.

And I agree that Rhys isn't an optimal support for Titania.

But they aren't better than Mist is for her support-wise.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Interceptor]

Uh yeah, you just admitted she needs a lot of BEXP.

Or more accurately, you just oversimplified my qualification into something that you can understand, and thus completely failed to grasp the point entirely.

It's optional to BEXP plow Mist in Ch16. Optional means that you don't have to do it. There's a reason for considering it -- since having an 8MV unit that can deal with the troublesome units in this chapter is actually helpful, she remains useful in Ch17, and in Ch18 she's actually at a point where I think the Sonic Sword can OHKO a Wyvern -- but Mist is also fine with using the Physic to drop heals on people, and train herself in tier 1 a little longer.

The point about Mist using Physic is that she does a worse job than Rhys in that arena. They get Physic around the same time and Rhys can just use it plain better in range and in healing prowess. Her supports are better, but there are chances that Titania will be taken and and Mordy isn't exactly optimal.

Oh yes, Titania is certainly going to look at her needs (durability), her partners (all of them slower than Mist), and come to the conclusion that she really just doesn't wanted a mirror DEF support with someone that can keep up with her.

Titania wants freaking RHYS over Mist when he's her worst support option by a crushing margin? What are you smoking???

It is really not worth replying to him unless you have nothing better to do.

[Dark Sage]

Elaborate on that. I can't find the bonuses.

Anyway Mist early on can't catch up to Titania either. As for optimal BEXP, I could say the same thing for like Tormod or anyone else. She is useful and she does belong in Upper Mid, just not that high up.

And Interceptor, please don't be so insulting.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Interceptor]

By the way, I personally would opt for promoting Mist after Ch18, for most teams. The teams where her combat prowess in Ch16 are decisive are teams that don't include units like Mia/Zihark/Stefan, and also there's a conveniently-sized wad of BEXP that gets dumped in your lap after the Ch17 gauntlet (850 BEXP, roughly enough to take Mist to 20/1 from about level 13, with a Master Seal).

And Interceptor, please don't be so insulting.

When I got through the trouble of being very specific about word choice, and someone wipes away all of the nuance in a reply, I get annoyed and take them to task for it.

EDIT: check that, I forgot that clear bonuses don't apply in Hard. Mist from 14-ish, based solely on the Turn bonus.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Interceptor

[Shadow Mir]

Elaborate on that. I can't find the bonuses.

Anyway Mist early on can't catch up to Titania either. As for optimal BEXP, I could say the same thing for like Tormod or anyone else. She is useful and she does belong in Upper Mid, just not that high up.

Water/Light gives full defense and an extra point of attack at B.

Fire/Light gives full hit and 1 att and def at B.

Earth/Light gives 5 avoid per support level and 1 point of def at B.

I think it's pretty obvious which is best.

Sure, but it's not as though she has any better partners than Mist, as Interceptor just pointed out.

[Zkirsche]

Water/Light gives full defense and an extra point of attack at B.

Fire/Light gives full hit and 1 att and def at B.

Earth/Light gives 5 avoid per support level and 1 point of def at B.

I think it's pretty obvious which is best.

Well, it depends on each character, so simply saying the affinity bonuses doesn't cut it. Although I agree Titania should get Mist.

[Shadow Mir]

Well, it depends on each character, so simply saying the affinity bonuses doesn't cut it. Although I agree Titania should get Mist.

Well, that's true. Indeed, Titania would like a mirrored Defense support best.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford