FE9 Tier list v3

[Narga_Rocks]

Let's see.

Arms Scrolls that don't go better anywhere else.

And have such a minor impact that their best possible use aside from selling (giving them to Mist) has the impact of a fly on the game at best. Unless Mist is killing more than 12 foes, her best usage for the weapon is not using it at all. So yea... The best possible use for the scrolls is to make a character whom isn't meant for combat able to wield a weapon she wouldn't normally wield so that she can not use it. A level of Bexp > the arms scrolls.

So I take it that you aren't disagreeing with applying arms scrolls to Mist? Good. Whatever you think of the benefits isn't relevant to me at the moment. Apparently you don't like having a frontline healer that can kill things (don't do it too often, though) and keep up. I do.

Bexp that you have unless you have a team of like 12 (causing everyone to be worse, not just Mist) or are exclusively using units like Mia, Marcia, Jill, Neph, Brom, Tormod, Astrid, Makalov, Rolf (I don't mean one or two of them. That's fine. I mean all of them. Then you'll have trouble getting Mist up to par without costing you someone else)

Bexp spent is still Bexp spent. A level given to Mist to spike her up early so she can potentially not fail could also have been given to a combat unit. You know, someone who will be fighting all the time and have use for the stats as opposed to a healer who only desires the level-up for a early point of magic which she doesn't need to heal but rather to net 12 kills.

You seem to be missing the point. Everyone else, on a team of 8, has already gotten sufficient bexp. Another level or two generally means they do 110% damage in two hits instead of 100%, or 70% instead of 67% or something useless like that. And you expect me to believe than an insignificant improvement like that is superior to making Mist useful? Apparently you aren't good at optimizing bexp use. And we wouldn't be bexping until we are ready to seek promotion. Why would you want to bexp her from level 6 to 8, for example? Why would you think that this is what I'm advocating? And the goal isn't so she can kill 12 things. It is to be on the front lines, have 8 move, spare you some physic staves, etc.

Supports that benefit others and Mist is their best option and they are amazing units you should probably be using anyway.

Rolf is not amazing. Mordi is slow and needs the band to be useful in the first place (no Muarim). This isn't to mention that he's... slow. Probably needs a wing or two. Titania doesn't care so much simply because she has two fires and a earth as well on her roster. Not to mention Ike and Boyd will always be on the front line and while Rhys is frail and whatnot, at least he doesn't need to move in order to do his job. So she has viable reasons for picking all three over Mist. Boyd has three waters already and Titania and doesn't really care because he gets 2 defense no matter whom he supports and the only difference between Titania and anyone else support-wise is 1-2 attack, which he has a load of. Still, others are superior since they are all frontliners and Mist is a healer. Jill will be identical to Titania, except moving out of range as well. Face it. Mist does not have amazing supports. End. Of. Story.

You are being an idiot. End. Of. Story.

Yeah yeah, tone and all that, but are you kidding yourself? I can buy that Mordy may not be around, but she doesn't need him. And I never said Rolf was amazing or one of the units I cared about. Titania does not have a better partner than Mist. She gets +1 atk and +3 def. You aren't beating that with any of her partners. And guess what? That bexp you think is going to waste on Mist allows you to apply that all the time. Jill doesn't have better partners, either. Lethe and Haar? Are you mad? Heaven for one, and Lethe is probably getting dropped by most people somewhere along the way. Haar doesn't appear until late and has wind. How is that superior to a really quick +1 atk, +3 def, +7 avo? Even if Jill moves out of range from time to time, you are likely getting the benefits from the support more than half the time anyway. That's pretty significant.

So, what's the problem exactly? Besides, 49 uses of SS is more than enough for the whole game since she isn't primarily a combat unit.

lolno. The SS has 25 uses and Mist will not be getting a Hammerine use. There are superior weapons out there, such as the VK, any killer or irreplaceable weapon, or, well, any weapon at all. The SS is used for wyvern sniping, not for making Mist a combatant.

Let me get this straight: you think that hammerne is not well spent on a weapon guaranteed to ORKO at 1-2 range and instead find a better use would be on killers (not anywhere near guaranteed to crit and are then no better than steel swords +1), Vague Katti (see killers only a little stronger when it fails to kill), or braves (generally don't 2HKO so you still face counters and they also have no 1-2 range). I'm not seeing how the SS is an inferior choice. It actually seems head and shoulders above the rest in terms of Hammerne Priority. And it seems you have a problem where you can't see beyond wyverns.

Even 25 + 15 = 40 (remember Runesword)

The SS gives only 1 WEXP per use. Mist would need two Hammerines and 60 hits to make it to A rank. Way too costly when any sword unit with a half-dencent magic score (out of the single digets) can use it well if only for the healing effect.

Did you miss the part where we said that she kills weakened things and cantos along the way? You don't think that this would happen often enough to reach A by chapter 27? ~10 chapters of doing that + some sonic sword use + those two arms scrolls? Last time I played Mist hit S rank and I was annoyed because I wanted her to be able to use the Ashera if necessary since I'd never give her the VK.

I still don't buy that you'll ever run out of that plus a couple of iron/steel sword hand-me-downs from Mak/Zihark/Mia/Ike when they get upgrades.

You don't have to buy it. But a iron sword forge has 10 MT assuming maxed MT. A steel blade is needed to match that. The only reason a forge would remain would be the unlikely event all three netted forges, then for some reason moved on to steel forges in 1-2 chapters (and steel forges are the best until Silver swords/forges come)

"All three"? First off, who is even using more than one of Mak/Zihark/Mia? Beyond that, you don't need them all to get a steel forge. You just need an iron forge user to get a new one. Plus, why wouldn't most units have received an iron forge? 8 combat units should generally get one each unless they don't even need one. Then someone gets a steel forge and passes their iron to Mist. Or whatever. There are various ways she can get a weakened one that nobody wants anyway. Or you can simply make one for her if people are willing to forge for Rhys of all people.

Define "phenomenal"

Monopoly on healing until chapter 10 (Mist is as frail as heck and can barely heal in 9.)

You have a very specific definition of phenomenal, and it is rather underwhelming.

And even just as a mounted healer + support battery that's still better than what Rhys gives you, so even 10/1 Mist is winning this one.

A mounted healer we don't need (The two boat levels require almost no movement and 14 and 15 are highly anti-Mist, 15 blatantly so.) and a support battery that is meh? Riiight.

Apparently the entire game is chapter 14 and 15. And who is trying to promote her before 15 anyway? And what is it you want out of a support battery? You must have insanely high standards if Mist is nearly "meh". She's easily one of the best supporters in the game. Only Ike and Oscar are potentially beating her.

What are you smoking? Her "crap" early game lasts precisely 10 heals.

Chapter 9 has a 8 turn limit on it. Even if Mist heals every turn (I can understand five to seven, but 8 is gonna require a bit of luck) she won't be at the same level till turn 3 of the next chapter. Need I remind you that the goal of the list is minimum turn counts? We will be trying to clear the chapter ASAP, so that's only 5-7 turns on 9 for her to heal anyways.

And your point is? I never asked you to reach D rank before 9 ends. 10 heals may last 2 chapters, but after that she's toting Mend and she's fine. Until then, you have Rhys + Mist anyway so when you need someone to get more than 20 HP healed you can just use him. Heck, you can use them both on the same unit if you want.

[/i]And now, without a drop of bexp, she is functionally equivalent to Rhys.[/i]

Mist joins at level 1. Assuming she healed every turn in 9, she has 88 experience. Rhys joined at level 4 in chapter 2. Even assuming he healed only half of the turn limit with a heal staff and never used anything else, he has 297 EXP. Not to mention access to D, if not C staves. Guess where Ward is? C. Mist needs 70 WEXP to get the Ward. Rhys already has it. At most, Mist has 24 Wexp at the end of 9 and needs 44 more. It's going to be two to three chapters before she can even touch it. Now granted, this means little to the team at the moment. However, it does mean Rhys is gaining loads more EXP, will promote sooner, and whatnot. Advantage, Rhys.

Ward has little benefit before Mist can reach C anyway. And apparently the difference between 17 and 12 is "loads". Also, what are you getting out of Rhys that is worth blowing Ward on him rather than Mist? Tell me that. What does Rhys provide you in comparison to 8 move, water affinity to great units, canto, ability to sonic sword, ability to cause great damage to mages/sages without taking great damage in return (Rhys only has one of these two against sages)? There is little point of even blowing the ward on him.

You so haven't been paying attention if that is all you can think of her. It's like you've been covering your ears/eyes for like more than half of the argument.

No. He's not been. Forged weapons rock. Bigtime. Even a Iron sword forge is superior to most weapons till Silver (and the only weapon that can beat them is a steel-sword forged, which can you get only one of per chapter). You would intentionally have to make a sword unit go without or make a sword specifically for Mist to get her to touch a forge. Even then, Mist is on the lower end of attack power at best and any combat with her could only be called babying (not to mention, isn't the whole point of Mist > Rhys that she is a mounted healer? You know... a healer... Who heals things. Why is she attacking instead of healing?). Even giving her the scrolls, unless we're dumping valued Hammerine uses on her as well, Mist's contribution is laughable and doesn't even exist until chapter 18. Rhys can get a physic stave in 15 or 16 for his use (ignoring steals) and can wield a tome from range (granted, not that good, but he can replace the tome. Mist can't replace the SS).

Um, very limited purge, Mist can use physic by then as well. Rhys has trouble even getting to enemies with his other tomes and gets weighed down unless you "make a" Light "specifically for" Rhys. He'll never do better than 2HKO and generally doesn't double, so Mist's 2RKOing with a forge isn't bad compared to him and she does it much much earlier than he does (she's got more move and thus encounters the enemy a turn sooner). And if Mist 2RKOs she can attack enemy phase + player phase and move forward and not fall back at all. If Rhys tries to do the same thing then he's going to fall even more behind.

And your thing about being a healer. The point with Mist is that she can be more than that. Her primary use may be healer and supporter, but the fact that she can defend herself well on enemy phase and occasionally blick things with SS and when nothing needs healing she can poke and run to KO something weakened is very relevant to discussion of better character.

Not to mention the RS doesn't come till chapter 27. Even dumping all three uses of the Hammerine on Mist, she's not getting to that chapter with it intact unless she's specifically not fighting or fighting selectivly, not a normal or even part-time combatant (48 kills in 9 chapters averages out to something like only 5-6 kills a chapter. Weak for a combatant, and she would likely need to forfit a sizeable amount of healing to do so).

Um, first who even said to use all three uses. Second, she's a primary healer. She only needs to kill things rarely, and most of the time those are things that were weakened by others that couldn't kill and she allows everyone to move forward rather than everyone - whoever is left behind to KO. Mist doesn't need SS for that. Doesn't even need a forge for that, actually. And considering I was intending to use the Runesword like a short blaze of glory (2 turns or so), I'm obviously not too concerned about how late you get it. It just shifts when those 2 turns are.

While I'm thinking about it, why isn't the seal counted among her costs? She's pitiful as a combatant and other units want to use it as well. Especially if 20/15 is the expected endgame. Then there's no point in not using it on a level 15 unit, and a level 10 unit would likely find an advantage in the early cap as well. Like earlier axes, crit boost, or whatnot.

Why isn't 20/20 the expected endgame? I suppose a team of 12 might not get past 20/15, but that means that you should consider a tighter team. Besides, 5 -> 8 move. You aren't getting better than that. It may not be RD speedwing Titania/Haar levels of "duh", but it's a pretty low-cost item for her when you consider its uses.

[Dark Sage]

I guess it's considered a big cost for her because you deny a good unit who wants it and who's better than Mist the seal. Though you do eventually build up a large amount of them and you can just level up past 20, so it's not that big a deal.

[Shadow Mir]

I guess it's considered a big cost for her because you deny a good unit who wants it and who's better than Mist the seal. Though you do eventually build up a large amount of them and you can just level up past 20, so it's not that big a deal.

But how many units actually want the seals? Sealing a combat unit early nerfs their experience gain, which has the side effect of making them worse in the long run.

[Dark Sage]

Why I said it's not a big deal. I was just clearing stuff up.

[Interceptor]

On the subject of CEXP for Mist: we know that she uses Heal 10 times, followed by 14 uses of Mend (whether or not the unit needs the full Mend, we're doing it for experience, and it's too early for Torch). This takes 24 turns of healing, and puts Mist at level 3.78.

From there, things diverge. Mist can now use a staff for something every turn, without fail, because of Ward, so she's not wasting opportunities anymore. It does not matter if nobody is actually hurt, and Ward is kind of a pointless staff to begin with, so she can break it without issue, eating up 15 turns of normally dead time. In Ch14, she can do the same thing with Torch. Starting in Ch16, she can start using Physic. Unlike Rhys, it's alright if Mist leans heavily on the Ch15 and Ch16 Physic staves for CEXP, since Canto will later give her more flexibility with Mend heals, and long-range heals will be a good deal less frequent.

So what's reasonable? Can't say precisely without a more exact turn count, but there's probably about 40-ish turns prior to Ch16, and another 25ish until the start of Ch18. If we assume that Mist is smashing the Ch15 Physic, the Ward (30 turns of staff use now), and add on her Heal/Mend journey to C rank, she's banked 863 SEXP in 54 turns, or doing something ~80% of the time in my estimated count, putting her at level 9.63. I'd call this her theoretical floor, since there's a second Physic from Ch16 to abuse, random Torching, random Restoring, odd Mend, etc. This would put the required BEXP to land her at 20/1 by Ch18 at about ~1200ish, less than that if you take advantage of BEXP that you aren't using on anyone else in order to raise her levels more cheaply when she's lower.

Every chapter that she delays, reduces the amount of BEXP needed, taking it from the SEXP pool instead, trading support prowess for extra resources to spend for other people. Depending on the army, there's a point where people get strong enough that it's no longer worth it to feed them BEXP in lieu of Mist. There's also the option to promote her somewhat earlier (not at level 10, though, obviously), since Mist gets a nice chunk of stats from her promotion to begin with, and she doesn't suffer the CEXP hit that most combatants do from being higher leveled. You can buttress the downside somewhat with a Band, but it's not like Mist needs every ounce of her growths in order to be an effective backup attacker/healer.

[Zkirsche]

If we're finishing chapter 15 early, we probably won't get the physic. If we don't, we'd lose a tonne of bexp.

[Interceptor]

I don't see why the Physic in Ch15 would be out of the question, it's reasonably close to the starting point. You're obviously screwed out of the Boots, Katti, and White Gem, of course.

[Florete]

When I managed to clear Ch. 15 in three turns, I was able to get both the Boots and Physic, and I think one more, though I'd need to check. It was Normal mode, but Hard shouldn't be too much different. I also had both Marcia and Jill.

[Zkirsche]

Well, a four turn is needed to get Stefan (3 for just the VK), but only 2 are needed for the boots or physic. But the boots are fairly useful on Reyson.

[-Cynthia-]

I'don't think anyone is even arguing Mist down at this point, so those arguments don't seem to be going anywhere.

So does Ike/Boyd, and Oscar in comparison to Jill, who's around for an even less period of time than Marcia.

Marcia has 2 chapters (and a little bit of C9) before Jill joins, neither of these are terrain heavy. Jill>Marcia for higher Str and Def.

She has every chapter in the world, however, where she is part of the smaller, and more unique, "group", rather than Boyd, who's in the simple "combat units" group.

True, but flying isn't everything or Ulki/Janaff/Haar would be higher. She can become a pretty good combat unit with resources though. I'll move her into High without any objections, though above or below Boyd is the question.

[Narga_Rocks]

True, but flying isn't everything or Ulki/Janaff/Haar would be higher. She can become a pretty good combat unit with resources though. I'll move her into High without any objections, though above or below Boyd is the question.

I've always hated Boyd, but I was under the impression that he has the strength to 2HKO nearly everything (generals need forges) and can double all but swordies. Marcia can be great and all, but Boyd seems like a Rutger type (outside myrms). Rutger > Percival.

[Interceptor]

I'don't think anyone is even arguing Mist down at this point, so those arguments don't seem to be going anywhere.

I thought we had moved on to Tormod's position relative to her at this point.

I've always hated Boyd, but I was under the impression that he has the strength to 2HKO nearly everything (generals need forges) and can double all but swordies. Marcia can be great and all, but Boyd seems like a Rutger type (outside myrms). Rutger > Percival.

Boyd is actually so ridiculous that he's known to be able to ORKO a General cleanly with a generic weapon, even though sometimes it requires a Mist support of some sort. Also, his prowess with Hand Axes has the effect of shoving some of his MV issues under the rug, as he's durable enough to stick his neck out.

[Anouleth]

Okay, Interceptor made some points about Mist promoting later. They're all wrong, since Mist's EXP gain doesn't slow down after she promotes. The only reason to keep her unpromoted to is dump a massive pile of BEXP on her, which you can do in C16 anyway. So there's never any reason to hold off on her promotion, unless you seriously need the C16 BEXP to fix up regular combatants. Which is possible. But in that case, we probably wouldn't want to blow a bajillion BEXP on Mist anyway.

Interceptor also referred to the C16 Physic. Now, I forgot to upload my C16 log (and I am going to redo it anyway), but I can tell you now that getting that Physic is not on my things-to-do list. It's too far away to reach without spending another turn on the chapter. Probably not two turns, though. Shame, since I neglected to get the C15 Physic (I forgot about it and got stupid useless Guard instead).

I'don't think anyone is even arguing Mist down at this point, so those arguments don't seem to be going anywhere.

I've never been in favour of Mist going down. If anything, the 6 move healers should be the ones moving down. I just think that it's utterly ridiculous that Narga and Int think that Mist's combat is worth the resources they talk about giving her. I'm happy for her to be at the top of Upper Mid on the weight of her supports and healing and occasional weak chip damage. But the Sonic Sword is just an uninteresting appendix, like her support with Rolf or her ability to help kill the Black Knight. Sure, it exists, I just don't really care.

I imagine that when Int first brought up Sonic Sword Mist, he probably intended to head off some argument about Mist's poor combat. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slowking

[Narga_Rocks]

I've never been in favour of Mist going down. If anything, the 6 move healers should be the ones moving down. I just think that it's utterly ridiculous that Narga and Int think that Mist's combat is worth the resources they talk about giving her. I'm happy for her to be at the top of Upper Mid on the weight of her supports and healing and occasional weak chip damage. But the Sonic Sword is just an uninteresting appendix, like her support with Rolf or her ability to help kill the Black Knight. Sure, it exists, I just don't really care.

I imagine that when Int first brought up Sonic Sword Mist, he probably intended to head off some argument about Mist's poor combat. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

It's not like I think her combat ability is amazing or anything. I just don't see any reason not to have it if I want it. And it is more than Rhys can claim. Even the "occasional weak chip damage" can kill things that already tanked an attack from Oscar conserving a forge for important enemies or something, and thanks to Canto nobody gets left behind. But SS lets her kill stuff from full hp, too, so she is pretty versatile.

[Interceptor]

Okay, Interceptor made some points about Mist promoting later. They're all wrong, since Mist's EXP gain doesn't slow down after she promotes.

No, her CEXP gains aren't any slower than they normally would be, but promotion either means 1) waiting, 2) spending a lot of BEXP, or 3) knee-capping her stat potential. All three possibilities have advantages and disadvantages for Mist and the army. This is what I have been talking about.

I've never been in favour of Mist going down. If anything, the 6 move healers should be the ones moving down. I just think that it's utterly ridiculous that Narga and Int think that Mist's combat is worth the resources they talk about giving her. I'm happy for her to be at the top of Upper Mid on the weight of her supports and healing and occasional weak chip damage. But the Sonic Sword is just an uninteresting appendix, like her support with Rolf or her ability to help kill the Black Knight. Sure, it exists, I just don't really care.

Well, your level of caring doesn't really enter into it. This is something that objectively is useful for an army to employ with Mist; your justification for thinking it "ridiculous" has so far not strayed away from the same circular arguments that have been beaten to death repeatedly over the last week. Nothing -- repeat, nothing -- has been introduced as manifestly superior to giving the Arms Scrolls to her for SS use. Failing to show a significantly better way to employ the resources, or at least prove why you wouldn't want to do it, means that your chance of getting traction with your argument is essentially zero.

Making Mist a part-time combatant is dead easy to do, with concrete gains, and has several different options for tailoring her to a particular army's environment, so as to deal with whatever unique limitations that need to be put on her growth.

I imagine that when Int first brought up Sonic Sword Mist, he probably intended to head off some argument about Mist's poor combat. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Stomping out ignorance is what I do. If it takes a lot of blood and tears, so be it.

[Zkirsche]

Marcia has 2 chapters (and a little bit of C9) before Jill joins, neither of these are terrain heavy. Jill>Marcia for higher Str and Def.

Ch12 is very terrain heavy, and Jill joins so late and is so bad that I'm surprised you even included her in it. And whilst Jill is better than Marcia overall, her spd isn't too good before promotion, whereas Marcia's is always great.

True, but flying isn't everything or Ulki/Janaff/Haar would be higher. She can become a pretty good combat unit with resources though. I'll move her into High without any objections, though above or below Boyd is the question.

Well, being able to double and ORKO the majority of the map with acceptable resources with 8-9 mov and joining quite early is still pretty damn awesome. Flight is only the icing on the cake.

I assume you mean top.

Also, his prowess with Hand Axes has the effect of shoving some of his MV issues under the rug, as he's durable enough to stick his neck out.

I kinda question his hand axe utility, personally. Unless it's forged, his low skl means he's going to be facing shaky hit rates, which can cost turns/slow us down slightly.

[Mekkah]

True' date=' but flying isn't everything or Ulki/Janaff/Haar would be higher.[/quote']

This is like responding to an FE10 Mia argument and saying "well, speed isn't everything or Volke would be higher" - it neglects the large availability and combat gap between the characters completely. I believe it's called a non-sequitur but even if it isn't, it's still a logical fallacy!

[Interceptor]

I kinda question his hand axe utility, personally. Unless it's forged, his low skl means he's going to be facing shaky hit rates, which can cost turns/slow us down slightly.

I'm not saying that it's a panacea or anything. It's true that his HIT rates can be shaky, even perhaps with getting mirrored +HIT back from Titania and half-HIT from Mist. But sometimes it's the only way for him to get any damage at all, due to his movement or placement. It's worth noting that situations like this are why having Mist up front is useful.

If Boyd were to face, say, a Ch18 Soldier at 20/3, and needed to fight at 2-range (either to reach the guy in the first place, or to position himself further ahead for later), he can pull out a Hand Axe for a clean ORKO. Assuming neutral bio and no supports (just for the sake of argument), Boyd's base 108 HIT (he has WTA here) is about 85 listed on this guy, or 95.65% True. This is a 91.5% chance to ORKO, which is not bad and probably worth taking a chance on, subject to circumstances. The interesting bit is this: Boyd also has a 99.8% chance to land at least one hit, of which 8.5% of the time he'll land exactly one hit and miss the other, leaving the Soldier at about half HP.

What's nice about a Soldier with half HP? Mist can finish it off, no problem, that's what. Since she doubles here, she only needs 20mt with a physical weapon (aka, 20/2 Mist with some douche-bag's leftover iron sword forge is enough). Also, since she's guaranteed to be near Boyd at this point, if she has a support with him she can take down this guy with a generic Steel Sword. If you're worried about a counter, Mist can even pull out her Sonic Sword, which is a OHKO with 5 points of overkill (ohohoho, looks like ~12 kills just turned into ~24-25 finishes).

OK, so what about when Boyd has WTD (like vs. a Myrmidon), or the hit chances are too low (such as vs. an Axe user)? Well, if Boyd is a Warrior, he can pull out an Iron Bow and get about the same damage output (bow is -1 mt compared to Hand Axe), except with +30 bonus to base hit. Now, Mist can also perform the same Curbstomp Service<tm> if he happens to miss once or barely missed the ORKO, but she's also well-positioned to trade his Bow away after he attacks, eliminating the potential problems with having a 2-range weapon equipped on Enemy Phase.

And this is how you mitigate some of the downside of 7MV: be in a class with monster STR and access to 2-range weaponry, and be in an army with an 8MV Cantoing healer that can finish your leftovers and act as a convenient Instant Armory<tm>. That's why Boyd suffers less from his mobility issues than, say, Nephenee and the Swordmasters.

[Dark Sage]

We get it! Mist is good! Not the greatest or near as good a fighter as you're making her out to be, but we got it.

And the fact Mist needs to be spoonfed even promoted is worrying.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Interceptor]

We get it! Mist is good! Not the greatest or near as good a fighter as you're making her out to be, but we got it.

Obviously you don't get it, since you're still misrepresenting my positions. Mist is exactly as good as I've laid her out to be; it's not my problem if you see hyperbole where it doesn't exist. The issue of Mist is complicated and has a lot of nuanced arguments associated with it; if you can't keep up, don't waste my time with half-cocked replies.

And the fact Mist needs to be spoonfed even promoted is worrying.

What worries me is that you suppose that Mist ought to have the martial performance of someone like Kieran, who is expected to be able to cleanly take lots of kills on his own, and would suck if he couldn't. Mist is there for support bonuses, healing, and cleaning up messes. Never mind that Mist in the above example will not only ORKO that Soldier with the Sonic Sword, she'll kill him so hard that his kids will feel it.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Interceptor

[Dark Sage]

Obviously you don't get it, since you're still misrepresenting my positions. Mist is exactly as good as I've laid her out to be; it's not my problem if you see hyperbole where it doesn't exist. The issue of Mist is complicated and has a lot of nuanced arguments associated with it; if you can't keep up, don't waste my time with half-cocked replies.

I said not as good. Not that much worse, and I don't like that you're implying I'm an idiot. I'm annoyed because we settled Mist, and it's as if you're trying to provoke people into starting a fight.

I do understand the arugments. A support battery is very useful and Mist's is great, no mistake. I agree wholeheartedly that her supports are excellent. That's her job, to be a support battery with healing.

What worries me is that you suppose that Mist ought to have the martial performance of someone like Kieran, who is expected to be able to cleanly take lots of kills on his own, and would suck if he couldn't. Mist is there for support bonuses, healing, and cleaning up messes. Never mind that Mist in the above example will not only ORKO that Soldier with the Sonic Sword, she'll kill him so hard that his kids will feel it.

I don't expect her to fight her as well as Kieran, but I do expect her defeat Soldiers at least somewhat cleanly. Needing help when Sonic Sword is not in use is a bit worrying. And "killing him so hard his kids can feel it" does not impress me, considering how lots of combat units can as well. So she does have the martial performance of Kieran? Because that's what you're implying here.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Interceptor]

I said not as good. Not that much worse, and I don't like that you're implying I'm an idiot. I'm annoyed because we settled Mist, and it's as if you're trying to provoke people into starting a fight.

Saying "not as good" still implies something about my positions that merits a response, and one implication deserves another. If Mist was "settled" as you say, then one wonders why on earth you sneaked an argument into your post anyway.

Try this experiment, in order to help you see things from my point of view. On your next trip outside, find the following two items: 1) a pointy stick, and 2) a big, really mean dog. First, poke the dog with the stick; don't be shy, give it a good jab right in the ribs, make sure that you get its attention. Next, after the dog knocks you on the ground and starts perforating your face, start protesting that you COULD have hit it with a baseball bat instead. Make sure to be RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT; that's really important.

Good luck!

I do understand the arugments. A support battery is very useful and Mist's is great, no mistake. I agree wholeheartedly that her supports are excellent. That's her job, to be a support battery with healing.

And curbstomp things that are left alive by other people, and pull off clutch ORKOs when called upon, and murder magic users (who will tink her back), and trade weaponry around, and ferry people forward, and take a hit or two without getting insta-blicked, and also make julienne fries.

I don't expect her to fight her as well as Kieran, but I do expect her defeat Soldiers at least cleanly. Needing help when Sonic Sword is not in use is a bit worrying.

Why would you expect a healer to cleanly kill Soldiers? Setting aside the fact that she CAN actually kill them cleanly if called upon to do it, is 2RKO'ing really all that unexpected for someone who's already arguably the best support unit on the field? What is she supposed to do, perform backflips and spit fireballs?

And "killing him so hard his kids can feel it" does not impress me, considering how lots of combat units can as well. So she does have the martial performance of Kieran? Because that's what you're implying here.

I am not trying to impress you (... ), I'm raising the point that Mist can ORKO with room to spare, if needed. I am not implying that she has Kieran's martial performance; I'm saying that it's completely unreasonable to expect it of her. I am not impressed by your playing the part of Very Serious Person<tm>, with brow furrowed in mock concern.

[Dark Sage]

post deleted.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Red Magister

[-Cynthia-]

This is like responding to an FE10 Mia argument and saying "well, speed isn't everything or Volke would be higher" - it neglects the large availability and combat gap between the characters completely. I believe it's called a non-sequitur but even if it isn't, it's still a logical fallacy!

You have to look at the statement in context. Obviously Marcia flying better than Boyd not flying, the point is that flying doesn't automatically mean Marcia>Boyd. kirsche's main argument in his first post bascially consisted of "Marcia flies so she should be in Top". The fact that other fliers are very far from Top is relevant.

[Zkirsche]

Perhaps I should have said "Marcia flies in the two chapters flying gets you the fafthest."

Anyway, thoughts on my previous post?