FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

Was Mordecai's incredibly useful Smite utility taken into account when determining his current tier position? Because I've found it invaluable to position units such as Marcia.

Yes it is. Smite helps Mordecai be useful for the first few turns when he otherwise wouldn't be.

[Dark Sage]

Smight is really that helpful? Let alone shoving? I never needed to shove once when I played.

[-Cynthia-]

You don't *need* to Shove/Smite, but the positioning can help turncount.

I bet you Shoved on C13.

[Dark Sage]

No I didn't.

[-Cynthia-]

If you don't Shove/Smite on C13, you can't recruit Astrid on turn 1 and risk her dying (and you lose the KW).

[Dark Sage]

I just sent Titania and Oscar to guard her. And it worked.

[Life]

I just sent Titania and Oscar to guard her. And it worked.

Oscar doesn't have enough Move to get to Astrid and guard her from the archer who 1RKO's base Astrid even if he's promoted.

[AdamNW]

Someone explain Brom > Gatrie to me.

[-Cynthia-]

Better doubling chances. 7 base at lvl 8 is better than 5 base at lvl 9. Now you may say that neither are doubling, but they can with KW access eventually. Brom's supports are also better.

[AdamNW]

I don't think those things alone warrant a tier difference.

[Florete]

I don't think those things alone warrant a tier difference.

Neither do I, but just stating it isn't getting either of us anywhere.

[AdamNW]

That's true I guess <_<

Edited August 9, 2010 by AdamNW

[-Cynthia-]

Brom could be dropped to top of Middle tier I guess. Not sure whether he's better or worse than Ilyana. Both have low Mov, but Ilyana loses less fromt errain and cn be shoved around. Both have Spd issues, Brom moreso than Ilyana, but he has the KW. Brom's durability is better by a lot, Ilyana hits Res from 1-2 range and has staves.

[Anouleth]

Brom should be below Ilyana. Brom has speed issues, and his only advantage is durability. However, I've found that a 6 move unit will generally lag behind the other characters and have limited enemy phase exposure, so his durability lead is not useful. In fact, I feel that Brom should probably be below Gatrie, who at least has earlygame.

Marcia needs to go above Boyd. Her movement advantage is more valuable than his offensive advantage.

Sothe needs to go down. Virtually every valuable treasure in the game can be covered by Chest Keys, he can't even steal the few viable Physics, and his combat is awful. He should be Low Tier, and there only for getting the Boots and Physic in Chapter 15. Volke also needs to go down to Low, he has few advantages - better durability (worthless when they both have awful combat), better combat (worthless when they both have awful combat) and thieving in Chapter 10 (worthless since most of the treasure isn't valuable and is hard to reach). His only useful advantage is being able to steal Physics, but I never found them that necessary. The only chapter I needed to Physic in was Final.

[-Cynthia-]

I think I'll put Brom right above Gatrie is no one objects.

Marcia>Boyd. Maybe. You have to cosnider Boyd's earlygame though, and the fact that Marcia's combat isn't perfect, though I'm leaning Marcia.

@Thieves Apparently there are 9 Chest keys throughout the game, so that's 18 chests. Though we may not get some of these (like if we go Stealth on C10), and on the opposite side some chest items are not that valuable. Will require further investigation.

[Interceptor]

Try to keep in mind that Marcia's pegasus is the entirety of the reason that she's not in Upper Mid right now.

Calling her combat "not perfect" is sugar-coating the subject to the point of tooth decay. Marcia is locked to Lances initially with no possibility of Axes (gets Swords on promotion, woot?). She's basically Nephenee with wings from a rough martial perspective (seriously: they have identical STR/SPD bases, and the same STR/SPD/HP growths)... except that Nephenee has better durability, plus a useful innate skill for offense. And she does this, while sitting comfortably two tiers underneath an apple-eating hairbag.

Better than Boyd? Marcia is lucky to be in Top in the first place. Let's not squee too much over flying, here.

[Zkirsche]

I thought flying was the only reason Jill > Oscar. In fact, if anything, the difference between Boyd and Marcia is greater than that between Jill and Oscar. Oscar has a bigger availability lead over Jill than Boyd has over Marcia has the same mov as Jill (unlike Boyd vs Marcia) and Marcia can save us turns no one else - including Jill - can early on (ch12 and ch15).

Perhaps the combat difference is greater to an extent that it matters (although with forges I highly doubt even that) enough for Boyd > Marcia, but to say she's lucky to be in top is too harsh for her abilities.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought flying was the only reason Jill > Oscar. In fact, if anything, the difference between Boyd and Marcia is greater than that between Jill and Oscar. Oscar has a bigger availability lead over Jill than Boyd has over Marcia has the same mov as Jill (unlike Boyd vs Marcia) and Marcia can save us turns no one else - including Jill - can early on (ch12 and ch15).

Perhaps the combat difference is greater to an extent that it matters (although with forges I highly doubt even that) enough for Boyd > Marcia, but to say she's lucky to be in top is too harsh for her abilities.

Her abilities are reliant on that flight, though. If Jill lost 2 move and flight and canto, where would you put her? If Marcia lost 2 move and flight and canto, where would you put her? I think he's trying to say that flight (and what comes with it) are great things that have significantly altered Marcia's tier position, but he argues that it can only make her climb so much. Jill is probably not climbing nearly as far with her flight.

Is he right? No idea. Marcia is capable of cool things like speeding up chapters 12 and 15. Not sure what else she speeds up faster than Titania and Oscar and Kieran can, but I suppose there are a few things. Interceptor (in my opinion) will rebel against Marcia > Boyd because it starts getting into the range of considering healers and thieves and dancers. You are assigning a value to something that is far tougher to analyze than simple combat parameters.

[Anouleth]

Try to keep in mind that Marcia's pegasus is the entirety of the reason that she's not in Upper Mid right now.

Calling her combat "not perfect" is sugar-coating the subject to the point of tooth decay. Marcia is locked to Lances initially with no possibility of Axes (gets Swords on promotion, woot?). She's basically Nephenee with wings from a rough martial perspective (seriously: they have identical STR/SPD bases, and the same STR/SPD/HP growths)... except that Nephenee has better durability, plus a useful innate skill for offense. And she does this, while sitting comfortably two tiers underneath an apple-eating hairbag.

Better than Boyd? Marcia is lucky to be in Top in the first place. Let's not squee too much over flying, here.

It is not possible to squee too much over flying and +2 movement. There are many chapters where Marcia has a massive advantage over Boyd.

Chapter 12: Marcia can leave the ship, Boyd cannot.

Chapter 14: Marcia can reach the boss faster.

Chapter 15: Even if we don't skip it, Marcia still has an advantage.

Chapter 16: Boyd needs to be rescue-dropped to even be able to fight enemies. Marcia can help do the rescue dropping for Boyd, as well as Ike, and she can fight on her own as well.

Chapter 17, Part 1: Ordinarily in a Rout like this, I would give the victory to Boyd, but he won't be able to double the Myrmidons for a long time even with the Speedwing, so her movement trumps him.

Chapter 17, Part 2: Marcia can Arrive on Turn 3 if Mordecai is deployed, or you manipulate her starting position. Boyd gets to do nothing.

Chapter 17, Part 4: Marcia can head over to Oliver and kill him.

Chapter 18: Like Chapter 16.

Chapter 19: Marcia can lure down Naesala with the Full Guard, or she can bosskill. Or both.

Chapter 20: Marcia can drop Ike next to Shihiram.

Chapter 21: Marcia can drop Ike and others across the sewer. Boyd is still good because he can ORKO the Generals, but any Sage could do the same... as could Tauroneo if we trade him a Heavy Spear. I'd say they're about equal here.

Chapter 22: Boyd can shove, but Marcia can actually reach the boss. Probably equal, but not significant since the chapter can be 1-turned with a Sage.

Chapter 23: Marcia flies over the pitfalls and sandbags.

Chapter 24: Marcia is a good choice to Arrive at the castle, since she can ignore the River and the Thickets. Umm, I guess Boyd can help fetch Savior?

Chapter 25: Marcia can drop someone on the top level or go there herself.

Chapter 26: Marcia can help carry Ike towards the seize square.

Chapter 27: Boyd wins due to superior combat, since the map is too constricted for Marcia to make use of her flight.

Chapter 28: Marcia can carry people over the trees.

Final: Neither is useful.

To be honest, Boyd's crazy offense is only useful in a handful of chapters - 21 to kill the Generals in the throne room, 24 against the Wyvern Lord near the beginning, maybe at the top level of 25 (probably not durable enough, though), the Generals in 27, and the Laguz in 28 (again, might not be durable enough). And in most of those cases, Marcia is also being pretty useful.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Slowking

[Zkirsche]

Her abilities are reliant on that flight, though. If Jill lost 2 move and flight and canto, where would you put her?

Bottom of high. Astrid + Mak are now better than her due to canto and more mov, yet still very good statistically. Perhaps over Muarim, however.

If Marcia lost 2 move and flight and canto, where would you put her?

Just above/below Nephenee. So at the top of upper mid.

The difference between them isn't so great IMO.

I think he's trying to say that flight (and what comes with it) are great things that have significantly altered Marcia's tier position, but he argues that it can only make her climb so much. Jill is probably not climbing nearly as far with her flight.

That's because there's no one else left to climb, excluding Titania, who is an exception.

Is he right? No idea. Marcia is capable of cool things like speeding up chapters 12 and 15. Not sure what else she speeds up faster than Titania and Oscar and Kieran can, but I suppose there are a few things. Interceptor (in my opinion) will rebel against Marcia > Boyd because it starts getting into the range of considering healers and thieves and dancers. You are assigning a value to something that is far tougher to analyze than simple combat parameters.

The usefulness of +2 mov, canto etc are also arbitrary things, yet they are heavily used in arguments against 7 and 6 mov units. Including by Int, who goes out of his way to say how Brom/Soren are lagging behind. If he doesn't want to argue it, fine by me, that won't stop me + anouleth pushing it.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Interceptor]

Perhaps the combat difference is greater to an extent that it matters (although with forges I highly doubt even that) enough for Boyd > Marcia, but to say she's lucky to be in top is too harsh for her abilities.

I am simply pointing out that if you took away Marcia's mount and made her an honorary Soldier (albeit one that uses Swords on promotion), she's arguably worse than Nephenee. Therefore, we appear to valuing Marcia two tiers over Neph almost entirely on her pegasus. My post is me balking at this. Bottom of Top is all that I will accept.

It is not possible to squee too much over flying and +2 movement. There are many chapters where Marcia has a massive advantage over Boyd.

Sure it's possible. Especially since we already have Jill (flying Kieran to Marcia's flying Nephenee) for much of Marcia's existence, and Boyd has earlygame (which matters, see: Titania). I notice that you neglected to show where Marcia is winning over Boyd in Chapters 1 through 8.

Put Marcia in Pegahax tier, above Titania tier, and see if you still agree that it's not possible to squee entirely too much. I expect that we don't disagree on the concept, just on the location of the line.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Interceptor (in my opinion) will rebel against Marcia > Boyd because it starts getting into the range of considering healers and thieves and dancers. You are assigning a value to something that is far tougher to analyze than simple combat parameters.

The usefulness of +2 mov, canto etc are also arbitrary things, yet they are heavily used in arguments against 7 and 6 mov units. Including by Int, who goes out of his way to say how Brom/Soren are lagging behind. If he doesn't want to argue it, fine by me, that won't stop me + anouleth pushing it.

Not entirely what I was saying. These things are important factors that must be considered. But when you start supposing a 2 tier jump off of flight alone, it starts getting more difficult to determine the exact value. It is easy to compare two units of similar combat parameters, look at their move and choose a winner. It is also easy to look at a durable unit with 6 move (5 before promotion) and conclude that they will rarely be in a position to tank to their fullest. Even if you get them up to the front line, the enemy will have tons of options unless you are moving everyone else incredibly slowly.

But when you start considering Marcia > Boyd, you are moving a fair amount beyond those simple comparisons. Hence, you are getting into the range of healers and thieves and dancers. At this level, it is quite a bit different from pointing out that Brom is analogous to a turtle.

[Zkirsche]

Therefore, we appear to valuing Marcia two tiers over Neph almost entirely on her pegasus. My post is me balking at this. Bottom of Top is all that I will accept.

Perhaps, then, Nephenee is underrated. Think about what you said for the Sothe vs Volug argument and apply it here.

flying Kieran to Marcia's flying Nephenee

This comparisn is only true later on in the game, and Marcia is still very, very competant. In chapter 20, for example, she has, say 18 str with a 'B' Kieran. This is 34 Atk with a forge. This ORKO's all but the very strongest of wyverns and the generals. But to compensate, she can double myrms and the faster laguz - something Jill might be shaky on. And she can switch to a laguz lance for the laguz so she can ORKO them too (a level 20/6 Marcia can ORKO Tigers in chapter 28 with the 24 mt lance).

You're right in that her durabilty's shaky, but a seraph robe/draco shield can help this, as does her avo giving partners, which can give her avo in the nineties at level 20/15, so she isn't too worried in that department.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

I am simply pointing out that if you took away Marcia's mount and made her an honorary Soldier (albeit one that uses Swords on promotion), she's arguably worse than Nephenee. Therefore, we appear to valuing Marcia two tiers over Neph almost entirely on her pegasus. My post is me balking at this. Bottom of Top is all that I will accept.

Pegasi are useful. Just look at Thany, or Vanessa, or Florina, all of which have poor stats, even worse than Marcia, yet somehow remain in the higher tiers for their respective games. Hell, look at FE10 Haar, who would probably be in High if not for his mount.

I'm fine with Marcia being at the bottom of Top as long as Boyd goes down to High.

Sure it's possible. Especially since we already have Jill (flying Kieran to Marcia's flying Nephenee) for much of Marcia's existence, and Boyd has earlygame (which matters, see: Titania). I notice that you neglected to show where Marcia is winning over Boyd in Chapters 1 through 8.

Just as we have other units that fly, there are other units that can take out the handful of difficult enemies that Boyd ORKOes and Marcia doesn't.

The gap between Kieran and Jill is not as great as the gap between Marcia and Nephenee. Jill only has flight and loses combat and has an iffy join. Marcia has availability, weapon ranks, flight, and 2 movement.

Oh, and tell me just what Boyd is going to do in Chapters 1 through 8 that couldn't be done by Titania.

Chapter 1

Titania kills the boss, Ike seizes.

Chapter 2

Depending on Ike's levels, we very well might not need Boyd for the first few turns. Then Titania shows up and Boyd is obsolete again.

Chapter 3 and 4

Boyd doesn't even exist.

Chapter 5

Defend chapter.

Chapter 6

Oscar and Titania rush Ike forward. Boyd might be ORKOing Soldiers, which is nifty but not that crucial given that he probably won't reach the bottom half of the map.

Chapter 7

Boyd is useful here since it's Rout.

Chapter 8

Defend chapter.

So really, Boyd is only actually helping us in one chapter.

Put Marcia in Pegahax tier, above Titania tier, and see if you still agree that it's not possible to squee entirely too much. I expect that we don't disagree on the concept, just on the location of the line.

Obviously I don't think she should be that high, I mean, that's above the better flier. I just think you underrate the value of flight utility.

[dondon151]

The faster that you're assumed to go, the more useful mounts and fliers are. I think quite a few of us are reluctant to consider only a hyper aggressive playstyle (though why we condone a normal aggressive playstyle and not a hyper one puzzles me). I'd pitch in an opinion if I knew more about the game, but judging from the glut of BEXP, your fliers are no longer limited to mutually exclusive combat and flying duties, so compared to other games like FE6 through FE8, where flier positions are indicative almost solely of their flier utility, they should be relatively higher.

It's like what if you combined Miledy and Thany. Except Marcia isn't quite as durable as Miledy, but you get the point.