FE9 Tier list v3

[Dark Sage]

It's still not good resistance and with mages, I believe they have 6 move while Mist only has 5.

That's pretty bad.

[Shadow Mir]

It's still not good resistance and with mages, I believe they have 6 move while Mist only has 5.

That's pretty bad.

But when the E rank tomes have 2-4 Mt... Also, you screwed up regarding the mages' move: They only have 5 before promotion.

[Dark Sage]

What level do RES 5 knights start appearing, 10? Because if so, it's likely the mages might have a D tome by then.

[Shadow Mir]

What level do RES 5 knights start appearing, 10? Because if so, it's likely the mages might have a D tome by then.

Well, I've seen them in chapter 9. I think they might have that much even earlier. D rank tomes, eh? Ilyana has an Elthunder, but that weighs her down a ton when she's just starting out. There's an Elwind in chapter 11, and an Elfire in chapter 13 (that they'll need to be promoted to even use). And again, I'd quit trying to delude myself into thinking enemy Resistance is virtually non-existent like it was in the GBA games...

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Dark Sage]

Still, it's better than what Mist throws around at promotion excluding forges.

[Shadow Mir]

Still, it's better than what Mist throws around at promotion excluding forges.

And this has what exactly to do with the earlygame?

[Interceptor]

So Soren and Ilyana can't have Arms scrolls for siege tomes, despite them being useful, because Calill might happen to be in play (though Calill can't heal), but Mist can have all the Arms Scrolls she wants for the SS?

What is this "Calill might happen to be in play" bullshit? You don't need to train her in order to use her. She comes with 19 base MAG and the ability to use any of the three elemental siege tomes. She's a gift-wrapped magic mortar (seriously, METEOR IS IN HER INVENTORY) from an info conversation, ready to hit anything that you want from 3-10 range.

She's not displacing a healer, which you should already have one of. She's not displacing a combatant, of which you have many. She's not even bumping anyone out of deployment, since from her starting chapter forward, you always have a good 11-13 slots most of the time. In order for Calill to not be deployed, you have to actively make the decision to aim a gun at your foot and squeeze the trigger.

Soren and company can take their Arms Scroll(s), but it's pointless and counterproductive. Mist's army doesn't lose anything by lacking the ability to give a Mage access to multiple siege tomes, since by the time that we actually need it for anything she can just tap Calill for long-range duty on whatever element might be missing. Meanwhile, the team that used the Arms Scrolls for toilet paper just blew the chance to have SS Mist, a useful strategy that can't be replicated by anyone else.

Again, if you're going to go down the path of "what if tier player does stupid thing XYZ", you might as well just replace everything in the OP with a picture of the Fail Whale, because the number of retarded strategies outnumbers the efficient ones by a bazillion to one.

[-Cynthia-]

Meh this falls under the old "deploying team optimal" stuff all over again. If we're only deploying "team optimal" (which I'm even sure we can include Calill as a part of, she is useful, but moreso than all the fliers and paladins?) we tier a lot of the characters in the game very differently. We end up placing Rolf> Largo, because Rolf has a forced chapter and Largo is never optimal deployment, and other stuff that shakes up the tier list.

I thibk the current system this tier list uses for which characters are in play, is that the character in question is deployed 100% of the time, and the rest of the team varies, but high tiered characters are more likely. Keep in mind that Calill is in the Middle of Mid, so claiming her as always optimal may be a bit of a stretch.

2 siege tomers is still better than one anyway, though that does use up uses quickly.

This all comes back the original point though, in that the Physicing siege tomer takes Mist's slot, thus acting as our healer. They can act as Calill and Mist, sans a few things like supports.

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

But really, what exactly makes Mist so special with the Sonic Sword? It's just a slightly stronger Elwind, which you have plenty of. Granted her high movement and decent magic works to her favor, but I think you're hyping the SS a little too much.

And pre-promotion, Mist has sucky move, she can't get near her supports and can't get her staff rank up very high due to that. She starts at level 1 with 5 move, E in staves, and 4 magic. This does not work in her favor at all. You're pretty much forced to BEXP her, and Master Seal her early, which is expensive.

[dondon151]

Meh this falls under the old "deploying team optimal" stuff all over again. If we're only deploying "team optimal" (which I'm even sure we can include Calill as a part of, she is useful, but moreso than all the fliers and paladins?) we tier a lot of the characters in the game very differently. We end up placing Rolf> Largo, because Rolf has a forced chapter and Largo is never optimal deployment, and other stuf that shakes up the tier list.

I don't think that's the point. If Calill is, for all intents and purposes, completely free, while Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod require resources to become an asset that you already have, and if Mist requires resources to become an asset that you don't already have, I wonder which Five Year Plan is better?

By the way, all this hyping of the vaunted 2-siege-tome combination should not require Arms Scrolls in the first place. Soren, Ilyana, or Tormod can each use their respective type of magic and Calill can use the other 2. Problem solved.

[Dark Sage]

But like I said, Mist isn't particuarly unique. Sonic Sword is like I said a stronger Elwind, which we have in bulk and don't need arms scrolls for. A mounted healer I grant you is great, but she's got a lot to work against. In the end, we get a decent healer and an ok figher that requires a lot of resources.

And what happens when the SS runs out? She'll need forges which other people want as well, so she'll suck at combat.

[-Cynthia-]

Calill doesn't substitute for Soren/Ilyana completely though, since she can't use staves. Staves are the whole reason we're fielding Mist in the first place.

Resources give Soren/Ilyana the staff capabilities of Mist and the siege capablities of Calill, all in one slot. Calill and a trained Mist can do the same thing, but they take up two slots.

A mounted healer isn't really an asset we don't have once Physics come into play. Physics make the mounted part of healing not very useful anymore.

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

But really, what exactly makes Mist so special with the Sonic Sword? It's just a slightly stronger Elwind, which you have plenty of. Granted her high movement and decent magic works to her favor, but I think you're hyping the SS a little too much.

And pre-promotion, Mist has sucky move, she can't get near her supports and can't get her staff rank up very high due to that. She starts at level 1 with 5 move, E in staves, and 4 magic. This does not work in her favor at all. You're pretty much forced to BEXP her, and Master Seal her early, which is expensive.

I'm not seeing how 5 move hurts Mist when we're comparing her to characters that also have 5 move (namely, the mages). Also, you DO realize that Elwind has the same Mt as Thunder, but is much more expensive, right...?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Dark Sage]

Because 5 move still sucks. It's a drawback with the mages. The difference? They can start contributing right away and they provide decent chip. Mist only heals a bit more than a vulnerary, she'll want to stay back farther than the rest of the group, and she needs all those resources. How exactly is this so great?

And Soren's high magic plus Elwind is roughly equivalent to Mist's average magic plus SS.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Interceptor]

Meh this falls under the old "deploying team optimal" stuff all over again. If we're only deploying "team optimal" (which I'm even sure we can include Calill as a part of, she is useful, but moreso than all the fliers and paladins?) we tier a lot of the characters in the game very differently. We end up placing Rolf> Largo, because Rolf has a forced chapter and Largo is never optimal deployment, and other stuf that shakes up the tier list.

This has nothing to do with "team optimal". The argument here Mist is the best use for the Arms Scrolls, and it's the most efficient way to play her. If you use them for a lesser purpose, you just left something better on the table, and that deserves pointing out in Mist's favor. Argue about the magnitude (and prepare to lose), but don't give me crap about how the tier player takes Mist's army and sandbags him/herself out of siege magic just because Calill is Mid tier and "might not always be deployed"? If Mist can't make use of Calill, despite the clear superiority of the choice, then why make any argument about any character at all?

2 siege tomers is still better than one anyway, though that does use up uses quickly. [...] This all comes back the original point though, in that the Physicing siege tomer takes Mist's slot, thus acting as our healer. They can act as Calill and Mist, sans a few things like supports.

Why can't Mist have two siege bombers, exactly? Just because Iltoren can't master all three elements doesn't mean that they can't have one or two, and also be deployed in Mist's army.

Your Sage can use magic fairy wings to fly to the front lines (can't think of any other way for a 6MV POS to get near combat), and fight with normal tomes, letting Mist handle the healing, supports, and sword work. Mist's army is going to be using siege to its fullest extent anyway, since even against non-laguz a siege hit is often going to weaken an enemy enough that Mist can ORKO with a regular sword, or OHKO with the Sonic Sword.

And while I'm on a tear:

Although if Mist is better than Soren/Ilyana due to Mov, that brings us back to the Tormod argument. Tormod is supposedly "hard to train", but Mist isn't easy to level up either. Of course we can give Mist BEXP, but we can also give Tormod BEXP. Mist has better supports, but Tormod's aren't too bad. Tormod also has better offense against some enemies, even when Mist has the SS.

Give me a break. Mist is no hurry, so she can take per promotion at the beginning of Ch18, after hacking a huge chunk of the needed BEXP away by taking from the staff pool. The only purpose for promoting her immediately after Ch15 is either to time-shift her performance backwards in order to have a decent combatant ealier (20/1-ish Mist in Ch16 with a forge is actually a pretty useful fighter) or get a head start on her Sword rank and save an Arms Scroll. Tormod, OTOH, is balls useless as a healer if he waits to promote naturally, never mind that he'll be spending a bunch of time in tier 1 with ass combat and nothing else to contribute.

It's pretty ludicrous to compare Mist's BEXP usage to Tormod's.

[Dark Sage]

No it isn't. Tormod starts at Level 7, and he only requires 3 to 4 levels of BEXP to get up to par. Mist? Requires shit tons of it because without it, she can't heal very well due to a combination of meh movement, average magic, and E staves. She can't even use Arm Scrolls to boost her staff rank and you probably are using Rhys to heal already.

Even promoted, she still needs Forges outside of SS to be a good fighter. As a healer, she's fine, but otherwise, meh.

[Shadow Mir]

No it isn't. Tormod starts at Level 7, and he only requires 3 to 4 levels of BEXP to get up to par. Mist? Requires shit tons of it because without it, she can't heal very well due to a combination of meh movement, average magic, and E staves. She can't even use Arm Scrolls to boost her staff rank and you probably are using Rhys to heal already.

Even promoted, she still needs Forges outside of SS to be a good fighter. As a healer, she's fine, but otherwise, meh.

Except either Tormod Seals, which has the opportunity cost of having to wait for 5 chapters, or Tormod doesn't use a Seal and has to spend a significant amount of time unpromoted and sucking at combat. Also, Mist supports four of the best units in the game. Rhys... doesn't.

[-Cynthia-]

This has nothing to do with "team optimal". The argument here Mist is the best use for the Arms Scrolls, and it's the most efficient way to play her. If you use them for a lesser purpose, you just left something better on the table, and that deserves pointing out in Mist's favor. Argue about the magnitude (and prepare to lose), but don't give me crap about how the tier player takes Mist's army and sandbags him/herself out of siege magic just because Calill is Mid tier and "might not always be deployed"? If Mist can't make use of Calill, despite the clear superiority of the choice, then why make any argument about any character at all?

The original issue of this argument was denying the Sages Arms Scrolls to get to use Siege tomes, not denying Arms Scrolls to Mist. Mist isn't always being deployed when Soren/Ilyana are (we probably don't need more than one healer after people promote), so they have easy Arms Scrolls access then.

Why can't Mist have two siege bombers, exactly? Just because Iltoren can't master all three elements doesn't mean that they can't have one or two, and also be deployed in Mist's army.

There seem to be a lack of slot considerations here. Yes, Calill can be in Mist's team, but that means they take up two slots. Soren/Ilyana doing roughly the same job leaves a spot open for another unit.

Give me a break. Mist is no hurry, so she can take per promotion at the beginning of Ch18, after hacking a huge chunk of the needed BEXP away by taking from the staff pool. The only purpose for promoting her immediately after Ch15 is either to time-shift her performance backwards in order to have a decent combatant ealier (20/1-ish Mist in Ch16 with a forge is actually a pretty useful fighter) or get a head start on her Sword rank and save an Arms Scroll. Tormod, OTOH, is balls useless as a healer if he waits to promote naturally, never mind that he'll be spending a bunch of time in tier 1 with ass combat and nothing else to contribute.

It's pretty ludicrous to compare Mist's BEXP usage to Tormod's.

Tormod can gain CEXP a lot more quickly than Mist gains SEXP. He's so underleveled that chipping will probably gain more than a heal gives Mist, and he gets a lot for killing units.

True he takes away from the combat pool, but at the time Tormod joins most of your team is promoted and gains relatively little CEXP anyway.

And if we give Tormod a lot of BEXP he promotes earlier, just as Mist needs a lot of BEXP to ever have combat.

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

No it isn't. Tormod starts at Level 7, and he only requires 3 to 4 levels of BEXP to get up to par. Mist? Requires shit tons of it because without it, she can't heal very well due to a combination of meh movement, average magic, and E staves. She can't even use Arm Scrolls to boost her staff rank and you probably are using Rhys to heal already.

Even promoted, she still needs Forges outside of SS to be a good fighter. As a healer, she's fine, but otherwise, meh.

The only thing that a level 11 Tormod is on par with is a scrub-bag army. He's moving at the same speed as your 7MV promoted foot soldiers (read: losing badly to all mounts), except they are all blowing him away in various offensive/defensive parameters, since he is rocking an entirely non-deadly ~12 MAG and ~11 AS, and all the durability of a level 1 Ike.

Mist OTOH spent her earlygame healing when she can, and has a Physic staff added to her arsenal right before Tormod's joining chapter. She only needs 10 heals to D, and then Mend takes cares of the rest (or Torch, if necessary). Once she hits C, it's nothing but gravy.

Mist doesn't need to be a "good fighter". She is fine as a supporting attacker, using the SS and whatever leftovers people have from normal forges.

[-Cynthia-]

We could use our BEXP before Tormod ever fights to make him better. A similar process to the one used to train Astrid/Makalov. Why put up with really bad combat when you don't have to?

Tormod needing BEXP isn't really a good thing, but Mist needing it isn't any better. Taking the rest of her EXP from the staff pool doesn't justify giving Mist BEXP in any way.

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

The original issue of this argument was denying the Sages Arms Scrolls to get to use Siege tomes, not denying Arms Scrolls to Mist. Mist isn't always being deployed when Soren/Ilyana are (we probably don't need more than one healer after people promote), so they have easy Arms Scrolls access then.

Nobody is denying them Arms Scrolls. Giving them Arms Scrolls is idiotic, and probably doesn't help their tier position in the least (because of the tiny benefits you garner in concert with what you left on the table in the form of SS Mist), but that won't prevent people from wasting infinite keystrokes on the subject to no useful end.

There seem to be a lack of slot considerations here. Yes, Calill can be in Mist's team, but that means they take up two slots. Soren/Ilyana doing roughly the same job leaves a spot open for another unit.

Calill doesn't even need to be "on the team", she just needs to be deployed when you need her. It's not as if there's any point in Mist's army training Calill in the first place, she's just there to blast things. And again, we have 11-13 slots (or more), and you quickly run out of useful units to deploy.

Tormod can gain CEXP a lot more quickly than Mist gains SEXP. He's so underleveled that chipping will probably gain more than a heal gives Mist, and he gets a lot for killing units. [...] True he takes away from the combat pool, but at the time Tormod joins most of your team is promoted and gains relatively little CEXP anyway.

Sure thing, chip with him all that you want. That sinking feeling that you have is the realization that every chapter that Tormod spends in tier 1, is another chapter where he's getting bupkis for staff rank. Have fun!

We could use our BEXP before Tormod ever fights to make him better. A similar process to the one used to train Astrid/Makalov. Why put up with really bad combat when you don't have to?

Precisely. But Tormod is undeniably eating up more BEXP at this point, which sort of undermines the whole "well Mist takes BEXP too" argument.

Tormod needing BEXP isn't really a good thing, but Mist needing it isn't any better. Taking the rest of her EXP from the staff pool doesn't justify giving Mist BEXP in any way.

Mist's taking of BEXP is justified by what she does with it, not how much staff CEXP she gains. The only purpose of the staff CEXP is to minimize Mist's footprint on the BEXP pool to begin with.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Interceptor

[Dark Sage]

Except for the fact that you know, she still has to overcome her E in staves. And there's no way to boost that. Leftover forges? Why can't we use that excuse for everyone else? Don't forget we only get one forge per chapter and it's not always going to be a sword. The point is, Tormod can at least contribute without as much BEXP. Mist...doesn't.

And she needs staff CEXP so she can raise her rank.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage

[-Cynthia-]

Tormod starts with 6 more levels than Mist. Mist has 8 chapters before Tormod joins.

Now how much SEXP is Mist getting? According to the crowd here, Tormod healing 14 times in 3 chapters seems too much and Mist has it worse (less Mov, worse durability, auto targeted by pretty much everything), so she's probably healing 5 times a chapter at most. This is a little over half a level a chapter. She'll get a little more by spamming Ward (though I like to sell Ward for the early forges, before C10 is a time where we're actually pressed for money).

I'm not seeing how Mist accumulates a large level lead, if it all, before Tormod joins, with SEXP. If Mist reaches level 7 by C15 without BEXP that means that Mist and Tormod will be consuming the same amount.

What does Mist do after promotion that Tormod doesn't? 1 Mov, but Tormod ignores terrain which is really crucial on some chapters (C25). Tormod has better offense against a number of enemies. It's pretty much just supports, and Mist's aren't always going to be in range (and Tormod's aren't all bad either).

Edited July 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

Except for the fact that you know, she still has to overcome her E in staves.

Ten uses of Heal to get to D rank for Mend/Torch. Some combination of 14/8 uses of Mend/Torch to get to C rank, at which point she's set for life because of Physic and Ward.

Leftover forges? Why can't we use that excuse for everyone else? Don't forget we only get one forge per chapter and it's not always going to be a sword.

Because everyone else is a primary combatant. Mist doesn't care if she only has 10 uses left on a Steel Sword forge, because she's not fighting as often as Oscar or Titania. Mia or Ike can pitch her the leftovers of their hand-me-down weapon the next time that they upgrade, it's not really a big deal.

The point is, Tormod can at least contribute without as much BEXP. Mist...doesn't.

That's not a point that's germane to the tier list. Tormod with little to no BEXP is getting nowhere, while Mist can take zero and cream him just on the value of her healing and supports.

[Dark Sage]

But she can't even get near her supports pre-promotion because they're all high move.

Anyway, the point is to even be a viable staff user, she needs BEXP. For the staves, you forget Rhys exists, so he can take away some of Mist's uses. Basically, it's more efficent to use a healer who heals a decent amount and can use Physic faster than a level one cleric who can heal only slightly more than initially. That's not to mention that Rhys for the most part will be ahead of Mist in level, so he'll promote faster.

Also if her weapons are filled with like 10 use weapons and such, she's gonna run out really quickly and then she'll be defenseless. Not to mention, like I said, not all forges are swords.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dark Sage