FE9 Tier list v3

[Zkirsche]

Her 10/xx offence isn't turning any heads period.

[Interceptor]

So, do I have to dedicate an entire post to the point about Mist's MV enabling her to give her godly support bonuses to the frontliners, before it gets acknowledged? Just asking. It's kind of important to the whole argument, you know.

The thing is an SM/Ike wanting to use the SS for 1-2 range is going to deplete its uses less than Mist wanting to use it every time she enters combat.

This is a nonsense point. Just like Swordmasters only using the SS in rare situations, Mist only enters combat when it makes sense for her to do so. She's not a combatant. There's no way that Mist is competing with Soren from a damage-dealer angle, the point is that she can take a hit and you want her to be near the front lines to begin with. Giving her the SS at the same time lets you make this a less risky proposition.

The SS makes a better band aid at fixing more minor problems like ORKOing wyverns or not countering ranged enemies than it does at the bigger problem of Mist not ORKOing almost every physical enemy without it. Mist might be able to keep up with the group better, but if enemies attack her on the enemy phase and she doesn't kill them that's not good for efficiency.

There's this thing called "trading". If you can't possibly figure out how to kill Wyverns other than having Manith do it with a magic sword, then give it to her, kill the sonofabitch, and then get it back to Mist at your earliest convenience. It has less uses now? Big deal. If it becomes a problem, use Hammerne, it's not like there's a long list of weapons that are better to use that staff on to begin with.

Mist's Mov advantage also only comes into play after she promotes. She doesn't gain much EXP on her own (healers get less than combat units), so we have to give her significant amounts of BEXP just to get her up to 10. We could Seal her at 10 I guess (though whether we want to do this before the desert is questionable), but her 10/1 combat still isn't very good (as opposed to Sealing a Mage at 10 who ends up healing just as well). I also have a tough time disagreeing with Mist's Mov advantage becoming less significant when Physics come into play.

So give her BEXP. What's the issue? There's a ton of it, and almost everyone needs some to begin with. Spam shit like Ward and Torch when you have nothing better to do, to cut down on the BEXP needed.

And to whomever is complaining about Arms Scrolls, who are you going to give them to instead? What do you gain, in other words, by not getting Mist to Sonic Sword capability?

[Shadow Mir]

The thing is an SM/Ike wanting to use the SS for 1-2 range is going to deplete its uses less than Mist wanting to use it every time she enters combat.

The SS makes a better band aid at fixing more minor problems like ORKOing wyverns or not countering ranged enemies than it does at the bigger problem of Mist not ORKOing almost every physical enemy without it. Mist might be able to keep up with the group better, but if enemies attack her on the enemy phase and she doesn't kill them that's not good for efficiency.

Mist's Mov advantage also only comes into play after she promotes. She doesn't gain much EXP on her own (healers get less than combat units), so we have to give her significant amounts of BEXP just to get her up to 10. We could Seal her at 10 I guess (though whether we want to do this before the desert is questionable), but her 10/1 combat still isn't very good (as opposed to Sealing a Mage at 10 who ends up healing just as well). I also have a tough time disagreeing with Mist's Mov advantage becoming less significant when Physics come into play.

To be honest, unless they're using it to trash enemy wyverns, if they don't have a good Magic stat, it's kind of a waste, as far as countering ranged fighters is concerned.

[Zkirsche]

And to whomever is complaining about Arms Scrolls, who are you going to give them to instead? What do you gain, in other words, by not getting Mist to Sonic Sword capability?

8000 gold. Neph using killer weapons faster. Soren being able to use meteor/bolting so when he's left behind he can actually do something useful like weaken an enemy general.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Interceptor]

She promotes, like, as soon as you get the sonic sword.

She promotes when you want her to, because of BEXP. Right after the desert chapter is just fine.

So it's even more bexp, which we might not have depending on the team (my team, for example, is running out and I'm caught between bexp'ing Brom for a KW beast later on, or Marcia for chapter 15), or over using of better staves if you want to get Mist promoted in time for the sonic sword, let alone before it.

You're shooting yourself in the foot for BEXP by using inefficient units to begin with. A choice between Brom and Marcia is like having a choose between a brick and a rocket launcher.

8000 gold. Neph using killer weapons faster. Soren being able to use meteor/bolting so when he's left behind he can actually do something useful like weaken an enemy general.

Thanks for proving my point. What's better than Arms scroll on Mist? A whole bag full of jack squat. Having a 9MV healer on the front lines that can actually fighting while contributing her supports is better than any of that crap. The gold is superfluous, and Nephenee will get to C lances rapidly on her own just by using her inital forge (break it and she's almost 2/3rds of the way).

[Zkirsche]

She promotes when you want her to, because of BEXP. Right after the desert chapter is just fine.

Yay, bye bye easy Marcia solo for chapter 15. Bye bye good Jill/Mia/Marcia/Brom/Nephenee/Oscar/Ike/Soren/Ilyana/Rhys/Makalov/Astrid. Mist wants it all, I'm afraid.

You're shooting yourself in the foot for BEXP by using inefficient units to begin with. A choice between Brom and Marcia is like having a choose between a brick and a rocket launcher.

Marcia is inefficient? Well, in that case, Mist is very inefficient.

In any case, I could've used more to make Kieran better for chapter 11, as he was under par, I'll have needed some for Makalov/Astrid to get them up to standard. If I was using Mia, I'd need some for her. A vast majority of great units in this game could become noticeably better with bexp, so I don't appreciate giving 1500 of it into Mist for a healer with limited offence/defence.

If Mist was by herself, then yes, the bexp you get in this game is more than enougth for her, but unfortunately, taking away 1/3 of the bexp just to get an early promotion which doesn't really reward you as much as say, another fighter would.

Thanks for proving my point. What's better than Arms scroll on Mist? A whole bag full of jack squat. Having a 9MV healer on the front lines that can actually fighting while contributing her supports is better than any of that crap. The gold is superfluous, and Nephenee will get to C lances rapidly on her own just by using her inital forge (break it and she's almost 2/3rds of the way).

True enougth, except:

8 mov. Point about Soren.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

There's this thing called "trading". If you can't possibly figure out how to kill Wyverns other than having Manith do it with a magic sword, then give it to her, kill the sonofabitch, and then get it back to Mist at your earliest convenience. It has less uses now? Big deal. If it becomes a problem, use Hammerne, it's not like there's a long list of weapons that are better to use that staff on to begin with.

Brave weapons? Killer weapons? Vague Katti? Laguz weapons? Rescue staff?

So give her BEXP. What's the issue? There's a ton of it, and almost everyone needs some to begin with. Spam shit like Ward and Torch when you have nothing better to do, to cut down on the BEXP needed.

Why the hell would we throw BEXP at Mist, when in your own words, 'She's not a combatant'? So she can have five minutes of fame when an enemy attacks her?

And to whomever is complaining about Arms Scrolls, who are you going to give them to instead? What do you gain, in other words, by not getting Mist to Sonic Sword capability?

For a start, Mist's non-SS combat capacity is laughable, with or without a BEXP dump. I see no reason why we should put up with 20 rounds of awful combat so she can go on to have 12 rounds of decent combat later on despite being 'not a combatant'.

Secondly, we can either sell them or we can give them to a Paladin for Silver (h)Axes. Or give them to a Swordmaster for earlier Vague Katti use. Or give them to Geoffrey/Kieran/Boyd for Brave Bow since the other users suck. Or give them to a Sage for Rexbolt. Any of these things are possible. For us to ignore these possibilities just so Mist can go on to be roughly equal to Tormod and in your words, 'not a combatant' anyway, seems like idiocy to me. It would be like giving the Spirit Dusts to Mia so she can have her moment in the sun with the Sonic Sword.

[Interceptor]

Yay, bye bye easy Marcia solo for chapter 15. Bye bye good Jill/Mia/Marcia/Brom/Nephenee/Oscar/Ike/Soren/Ilyana/Rhys/Makalov/Astrid. Mist wants it all, I'm afraid.

Only if you've been using your BEXP for wiping your ass instead of for raising units. There's so much of it that in order to run out, you need to create an artificial scarcity by using as many low-level growth units as possible.

Marcia is inefficient? Lol.

No, Brom is inefficient. You're qq'ing about having to choose between Marcia and Brom, and I'm sitting here wondering what the holy hell is the dilemma. It's like having to choose between an "I Win" button, and sticking your hand down a garbage disposal.

In any case, I could've used more to make Kieran better for chapter 11, as he was under par, I'll have needed some for Makalov/Astrid to get them up to standard. If I was using Mia, I'd need some for her. A vast majority of great units in this game could become noticeably better with bexp, so I don't appreciate giving 1500 of it into Mist for a healer with limited offence/defence.

Using all of those units at once is ridiculous and self-defeating. Anyway, Mist does some of her own lifting with staff CEXP, to cut down on BEXP needed. You only need to BEXP her when you're ready to promote, since she doesn't get a lot of benefit from it in tier 1.

8 mov.

Doesn't change argument.

Point about Soren.

Didn't even consider it worth mentioning. Blasting someone with a 5 use weapon that he's not going to double with? Now the Sonic Sword's 25 uses is starting to look good!

EDIT:

Brave weapons? Killer weapons? Vague Katti? Laguz weapons?

Keep in mind that you're competing with Hammerne'ing a weapon that can liquefy the internal organs of around 12 enemies. Sonic Sword is no pushover. Those are all valid uses for the staff, but Hammerne can be used on three things. If you can use it on SS, nice, if not, so what?

Rescue staff?

Yeah, when you're trashing Mist, bring up an item that she uses best out of everyone until Elincia.

Why the hell would we throw BEXP at Mist, when in your own words, 'She's not a combatant'? So she can have five minutes of fame when an enemy attacks her?

Why not? A mounted healer is useful, and a mounted healer that can fight is even better. We have so much BEXP that we can use it on things that are less efficient than turning Jill into a killing machine.

For a start, Mist's non-SS combat capacity is laughable, with or without a BEXP dump. I see no reason why we should put up with 20 rounds of awful combat so she can go on to have 12 rounds of decent combat later on despite being 'not a combatant'.

Titania's combat without weapons is laughable, that doesn't mean we try to beat the game with Counter. Give Mist both scrolls, or have her make potshots with some leftover Iron weapon for a bit to save a scroll for something that's useless. Take your pick.

Secondly, we can either sell them or we can give them to a Paladin for Silver (h)Axes. Or give them to a Swordmaster for earlier Vague Katti use. Or give them to Geoffrey/Kieran/Boyd for Brave Bow since the other users suck. Or give them to a Sage for Rexbolt. Any of these things are possible. For us to ignore these possibilities just so Mist can go on to be roughly equal to Tormod and in your words, 'not a combatant' anyway, seems like idiocy to me. It would be like giving the Spirit Dusts to Mia so she can have her moment in the sun with the Sonic Sword.

The problem is that none of those things you mentioned are actually blowing Mist with Sonic Sword out of the water. You're reduced to scraping the bottom of the barrel for niche uses. Why is what Mist does considerably worse than anything else that you can do?

I'm not saying that Mist is awesome. Scroll up, I'm objecting to people throwing fits about the Arms Scrolls, other uses for SS, BEXP use, and ignoring supports (we're racking up a ton of posts now that have ignored this last point entirely).

Edited July 15, 2010 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

Only if you've been using your BEXP for wiping your ass instead of for raising units. There's so much of it that in order to run out, you need to create an artificial scarcity by using as many low-level growth units as possible.

Unless you call getting units up to scratch wiping my ass, this statement is so wrong. Even if it isn't, I'm using both Lethe and Titania, who both aren't low level growth units, haven't even put any bexp into Rhys yet (replace Rhys with Mist), and the onyl noticeable ones I've put bexp into are Jill, Marcia and, eventually, Brom. And even then, they'd have used less bexp than Mist anyway, so it's moot if you think using them is a waste, as it makes Mist and even bigger waste. So, I'm sorry int, normally your points about resources are correct, but there is no way 1500 bexp in this game is free.

Arguably, the top few tiers suggest I should be using MORE growth units, like Neph, Mak, Astrid and Mia.

No, Brom is inefficient. You're qq'ing about having to choose between Marcia and Brom, and I'm sitting here wondering what the holy hell is the dilemma. It's like having to choose between an "I Win" button, and sticking your hand down a garbage disposal.

One of the major points of my playthrough is to see how badly a 6-7 mov unit gets nerfed, so levelling up some 6 mov unit is a necessity. The point wasn't whether or not we give it to Brom, but to show how little bexp I have left even after leaving many units with no, or little, bexp.

Using all of those units at once is ridiculous and self-defeating. Anyway, Mist does some of her own lifting with staff CEXP, to cut down on BEXP needed. You only need to BEXP her when you're ready to promote, since she doesn't get a lot of benefit from it in tier 1.

I'm not saying we have to use all of them, but I'm pretty sure we'd want to use at least a few of them (as at least 4 of them are in top/high tier), and unless we're going to starve all the non-growth units of bexp, Mist isn't getting ~1500 bexp.

And again, SEXP (staff exp) just doesn't equate to much, especially teh futehr you get in the game, when healing is more rare.

Doesn't change argument.

It means she's normally behind units, not on the same level as them. Aka, less combat.

Didn't even consider it worth mentioning. Blasting someone with a 5 use weapon that he's not going to double with? Now the Sonic Sword's 25 uses is starting to look good!

Blasting someone from 10 squares away which we may not be able to ORKO normally but don't want to waste turns on/risk getting seriosuly hurt? Seems fair enougth to me. Bye bye high hit tigers/dragons. Meteor/Bolting Soren has come to play.

For reference, a 20/16 Soren leaves dragons within single digit HP after 2 rounds with bolting (a clean 2RKO with a thunder forge). Very few people match this at range (Boyd/Largo only).

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

I have no idea where you pulled this ~1500 BEXP number from, Kirsche. I'm certainly not Mist's biggest fan, but the number isn't that high if you've been using Ward and Torch.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm inclined to agree with Kirsche here in that we probably aren't using an optimal team every playthrough. Using someone like Brom is representative of many actual teams a player can create.

The point is that there don't seem to be many benefits of giving Mist a lot of BEXP compared to other units. I mean we can give Mist 1500 BEXP, we can give her all of it, but we can also give it to a lot of other units. I can see the point into giving Marcia BEXP for instance, because having a strong flier is valuable on a lot of chapters. Not sure what BEXPing Mist gives us that many other units don't, other than subpar offense, and greater range with non-Physic staves (unit durability is pretty high, healing really shouldn't be too necessary once Mist promotes).

WRT Mist's support bonuses, Jill only comes into play when Jill isn't flying off over mountains and doing other flier stuff. Mordy doesn't fight half the time and might be dropped around Mist's promotion. Boyd has less Mov, so if Mist is using all of hers that doesn't help him much. Titania is probably a given though.

Edited July 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I have no idea where you pulled this ~1500 BEXP number from, Kirsche. I'm certainly not Mist's biggest fan, but the number isn't that high if you've been using Ward and Torch.

Fine fine, 1000 bexp. I suppose I'll have to go with that until I see how much Rhys heals later on.

Titania is probably a given though.

I'd liek to point out that Mist has competition for Titania: namely Ike and Boyd. If Soren isn't around, Titania is Ike's next best support. And Titania x Boyd is faster than Boyd x Mist, for what it's worth.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

I'm inclined to agree with Kirsche here in that we probably aren't using an optimal team every playthrough. Using someone like Brom is representative of many actual teams a player can create.

The point is that there don't seem to be many benefits of giving Mist a lot of BEXP compared to other units. I mean we can give Mist 1500 BEXP, we can give her all of it, but we can also give it to a lot of other units. I can see the point into giving Marcia BEXP for instance, because having a strong flier is valuable on a lot of chapters. Not sure what BEXPing Mist gives us that many other units don't, other than subpar offense, and greater range with non-Physic staves (unit durability is pretty high, healing really shouldn't be too necessary once Mist promotes).

WRT Mist's support bonuses, Jill only comes into play when Jill isn't flying off over mountains and doing other flier stuff. Mordy doesn't fight half the time and might be dropped around Mist's promotion. Boyd has less Mov, so if Mist is using all of hers that doesn't help him much. Titania is probably a given though.

Well, Titania is super-giddy when it comes to max-defense supports since her natural durability is a little lackluster. Boyd might have less move, but what he's mainly reaping from the support is big sticky gobs of durability, so the only time it's relevant anyway is when he's ahead of her. I guess that since I'm using both, I can see how feasible their support is... although Mordecai is probably interested in that B support.

It's also worth noting that on the many maps in the game with little terrain, Jill is just an extremely badass Paladin so they can stay together and gossip about boys to their heart's desire.

[Zkirsche]

big sticky gobs of durability

And hit > atk for him. Though, i may be biased towards 100% hit rates after experiencing first hand what missing does to turn counts.

[Interceptor]

I'm inclined to agree with Kirsche here in that we probably aren't using an optimal team every playthrough. Using someone like Brom is representative of many actual teams a player can create.

Then I'm obligated to inform you that you've just turned the criteria for the tier list into a bowl of monkey poo, since adding an unmeasurable element of "but what if we do <inefficient thing> in an efficiency tier list" -- the magnitude of which is subject only to your tyrannical whims -- makes it impossible to make arguments.

The point is that there don't seem to be many benefits of giving Mist a lot of BEXP compared to other units.

This is a great point. I think that you should take Mist out of Top tier, she really doesn't deserve to be above the likes of Marcia.

WRT Mist's support bonuses, Jill only comes into play when Jill isn't flying off over mountains and doing other flier stuff. Mordy doesn't fight half the time and might be dropped around Mist's promotion. Boyd has less Mov, so if Mist is using all of hers that doesn't help him much. Titania is probably a given though.

So just to sum up: Mist is offering useful support bonuses to any or many of Titania, sometimes-Jill, Boyd, and maybe-Mordecai. Being able to counter for serious damage means it's easier for us to keep Mist close to her support partners while she's up front, healing and whatnot.

Meanwhile, promoted Soren is way in the rear of the pack, tiegaming mobility with a tier 1 Myrmidon, and somehow losing durability to the healer that's in front of him.

EDIT: By the way Slowking, I replied to you but had to edit it into an earlier entry because of the asinine double-post rules.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

You could say the fact that she isn't in top tier is why she doesn't deserve teh bexp over all the unit's in front of her.

Remember what you said in our Mordy vs Oscar discussion? Taht Mordy isn't optimal deployment and thus doesn't deserve cexp. Well, in this case, it's Mist, but with BEXP.

somehow losing durability to the healer that's in front of him.

By a very small margin, thanks to avo, or not at all if you gave Soren a seraph robe.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Interceptor]

Unless you call getting units up to scratch wiping my ass, this statement is so wrong.

I'm going by my playthrough, which had a bunch of good people promoted early, and enough leftover BEXP to use some lesser units (like Nephenee, in particular, no reason it couldn't be Mist as well). Although I used Mia, who is not that great, and didn't have problems.

So, I'm sorry int, normally your points about resources are correct, but there is no way 1500 bexp in this game is free.

Yeah, except there's no need to BEXP Mist from 8 to 20 in one go, so 1500 is a little crazy.

One of the major points of my playthrough is to see how badly a 6-7 mov unit gets nerfed, so levelling up some 6 mov unit is a necessity. The point wasn't whether or not we give it to Brom, but to show how little bexp I have left even after leaving many units with no, or little, bexp.

And my point was that you're introducing inefficiency by using units that you know aren't really good. It kind of poisons your results.

Blasting someone from 10 squares away which we may not be able to ORKO normally but don't want to waste turns on/risk getting seriosuly hurt? Seems fair enougth to me. Bye bye high hit tigers/dragons. Meteor/Bolting Soren has come to play.

I'm not saying it has no effect, I'm saying that it looks pretty silly compared to what Mist can do instead.

Remember what you said in our Mordy vs Oscar discussion? Taht Mordy isn't optimal deployment and thus doesn't deserve cexp. Well, in this case, it's Mist, but with BEXP.

There's a lot of BEXP in this game, though, and Mist does not fail in lategame. That makes it markedly different from CEXP in RD and Mordecai in Part 4.

[Zkirsche]

Yeah, except there's no need to BEXP Mist from 8 to 20 in one go, so 1500 is a little crazy.

I said that earlier, hence:

Fine fine, 1000 bexp. I suppose I'll have to go with that until I see how much Rhys heals later on.

And my point was that you're introducing inefficiency by using units that you know aren't really good. It kind of poisons your results.

That's why I'm not arguing strategies etcetera, but I'm not using a tonne of units that require a bunch of bexp, just the normal amount, if not less than the normal amount, of these types of units., so I believe it's fair for me to judge the amount of bexp I have leftover and make a decision based upon that judgement.

Also, upper mid isn't bad.

I'm not saying it has no effect, I'm saying that it looks pretty silly compared to what Mist can do instead.

Most units can do what MIst does, most units do not want to approach dragons, too.

There's a lot of BEXP in this game, though, and Mist does not fail in lategame. That makes it markedly different from CEXP in RD and Mordecai in Part 4.

Not in the earlygame, however, which is when everyone (including Mist) want's it.

Compared to a beasty combat unit, yes, yes she does.

[Anouleth]

Keep in mind that you're competing with Hammerne'ing a weapon that can liquefy the internal organs of around 12 enemies. Sonic Sword is no pushover. Those are all valid uses for the staff, but Hammerne can be used on three things. If you can use it on SS, nice, if not, so what?

Sure, it liquefies the organs of a couple of weak enemies. I already pointed out that Mist doesn't have great speed with it initially, and I'm not sure she ever gets to the stage where she can 1-round laguz.

I don't think that being able to use the Hammerne on the Sonic Sword and put it in Mist's hands so she can maybe ORKO a few enemies is an achievement for her, put simply. Any idiot can do the same with a rare weapon like a Brave or a Killer or a Laguz or a Vague Katti.

Yeah, when you're trashing Mist, bring up an item that she uses best out of everyone until Elincia.

This might sound amazing to you, Int, but I'm not trying to satisfy some sort of deep personal loathing towards Mist. The fact is her combat stinks, and any idiot can snipe Wyverns with the SS anyway. Her Rescue staff utility is undeniable, however.

Tormod also uses it comparably to her.

Why not? A mounted healer is useful, and a mounted healer that can fight is even better. We have so much BEXP that we can use it on things that are less efficient than turning Jill into a killing machine.

Int, this is ridiculous noise coming from you. Listen, any idiot can take a thousand BEXP and kick ass. If Tormod got assumed to be fed that kind of BEXP, he would rocket up the tier list since 8 movement and doubling kicks the living shit out of Brom or Ilyana with their hilarious 6 move and inability to double reliably. Yet Mist gets that amount, pretty much for free so that whoop-de-doo, we have a healer that can counter-attack. Who the fuck cares?

Titania's combat without weapons is laughable, that doesn't mean we try to beat the game with Counter. Give Mist both scrolls, or have her make potshots with some leftover Iron weapon for a bit to save a scroll for something that's useless. Take your pick.

Well, the difference between Titania's combat without weapons and Mist's combat without Sonic Sword is simple: We only have 1 Sonic Sword, and any idiot can pick it up and use it productively. Nobody can use Iron Axe or Hand Axe as well as Titania and these are not limitless resources, so she's good. Plenty of people can pick up Mist's BEXP or her Sonic Sword and use them just as productively, if not more so than her. Wyverns are not soft enemies. Many weaker characters such as Tanith and Zihark and Mia struggle to kill them with conventional weapons.

I expect better than that kind of stupid strawman coming from you, Int.

The problem is that none of those things you mentioned are actually blowing Mist with Sonic Sword out of the water. You're reduced to scraping the bottom of the barrel for niche uses. Why is what Mist does considerably worse than anything else that you can do?

And what the fuck is Mist with Sonic Sword blowing out of the water? The fact is that Mist is taking this resource, and she does nothing special with it. The Sonic Sword is just as useful, if not more so, to use to kill Wyverns, than it is so that Mist can counter-attack. The Hammerne on the Brave Axe lets Haar ORKO just as well as it lets Mist ORKO.

Let me just summarise my point here. If Mist can take a pile of BEXP plus a rare weapon plus Hammerne use to maintain it plus Arms Scrolls to have decent combat, this is not a 'point in her favour', since most units can do the same - with the added advantage that when the rare weapon breaks they're not reduced to complete dependency on forges just to ORKO unpromoted enemies. If, as you say, Mist isn't a combat unit and should stick to healing, then we are not going to put BEXP and Arms Scrolls on her since these are items that improve combat and they go to combat units.

I'm not saying that Mist is awesome. Scroll up, I'm objecting to people throwing fits about the Arms Scrolls, other uses for SS, BEXP use, and ignoring supports (we're racking up a ton of posts now that have ignored this last point entirely).

I have no problem with Mist's supports. In fact, I don't think anyone does, which is why a massive argument hasn't erupted. What I do have a problem with is you acting like Mist's combat requiring a massive pile of resources to salvage is somehow not a problem for her, when we could spend those resources on other people. Oh, I'm sure that perhaps they don't need it if we have a team of ORKOing 9 move gods + Reyson, in which case I'm happy for Mist to cruise on their coat tails and give out support bonuses. But this list doesn't assume that kind of optimal deployment and never has.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Slowking

[Narga_Rocks]

Sure, it liquefies the organs of a couple of weak enemies. I already pointed out that Mist doesn't have great speed with it initially, and I'm not sure she ever gets to the stage where she can 1-round laguz.

The point of Mist is to have a healer and support battery that can keep up with the front lines and if she happens to get attacked from time to time she doesn't suck terribly thanks to Sonic Sword. What is it that you are trying to get out of Mist?

I don't think that being able to use the Hammerne on the Sonic Sword and put it in Mist's hands so she can maybe ORKO a few enemies is an achievement for her, put simply. Any idiot can do the same with a rare weapon like a Brave or a Killer or a Laguz or a Vague Katti.

If you are letting her get attacked 12 times and kill things, then at that point it doesn't seem so bad to let her do it again, right? I mean, if you are playing in such a way where your healer gets attacked so frequently it seems like you might as well. A brave, even killing in 3 hits, only gets 10 kills in this game and it doesn't even have 1-2 range. Seems to me like SS > Brave for hammerne.

This might sound amazing to you, Int, but I'm not trying to satisfy some sort of deep personal loathing towards Mist. The fact is her combat stinks, and any idiot can snipe Wyverns with the SS anyway. Her Rescue staff utility is undeniable, however.

Tormod also uses it comparably to her.

Except for the whole starting with E after promotion. Mist starts with E way back in chapter 9. He can't get an E until chapter 16. And in fe9 you can't even Arms Scroll for staff rank (unless you are promoted Rhys, I suppose). Also, didn't someone say that Sages can't get past C staves at all? (I kind of don't see why there would be a cap, but it has been said). Cap or not, how quickly is he getting to B, anyway? Plus, Mist has Canto and he doesn't. Hence, Mist does use it quite a bit better.

Int, this is ridiculous noise coming from you. Listen, any idiot can take a thousand BEXP and kick ass. If Tormod got assumed to be fed that kind of BEXP, he would rocket up the tier list since 8 movement and doubling kicks the living shit out of Brom or Ilyana with their hilarious 6 move and inability to double reliably. Yet Mist gets that amount, pretty much for free so that whoop-de-doo, we have a healer that can counter-attack. Who the fuck cares?

Mounted Healer that doesn't suck at combat. Hello? The point isn't that we are trying to make her a fighter. Obviously you could make other units better fighters without bexp. And if you are promoting her at level 10, you can get it done in a lot less bexp than 1000. Between chapter 9 and 15 you have lots of opportunity to use staves including one chapter for torching and you can ward a bunch. You could probably promote Mist on 500 bexp or less. Which units aren't taking that much over the course of the game?

Well, the difference between Titania's combat without weapons and Mist's combat without Sonic Sword is simple: We only have 1 Sonic Sword, and any idiot can pick it up and use it productively.

Are you kidding me? How does some no magic nub that 3HKOs on a good day use the sword anywhere nearly as "productively" as Mist?

Nobody can use Iron Axe or Hand Axe as well as Titania and these are not limitless resources, so she's good. Plenty of people can pick up Mist's BEXP or her Sonic Sword and use them just as productively, if not more so than her. Wyverns are not soft enemies. Many weaker characters such as Tanith and Zihark and Mia struggle to kill them with conventional weapons.

And if you for some dumb reason can't get rid of a wyvern any other way, then like he said make a trade. Mist can get it back 2 uses fewer. The weapons don't get locked to units once you hand one to them. These aren't fe10 Ragnell, BK Alondite, and Amiti. You can trade around a bit. Having Mist up at the front lines being something other than a liability is worth more than those other units nuking a wyvern anyway. Supports + healing. And wasn't it you that complained about the effort in grabbing Physics in this game, or was it someone else? Chapter 15 boots are higher priority. Some of the ones to steal require doing interesting things with Volke that may not work. Blah blah blah. If you only have one or two physics, seems to me like Little Miss Mounted is a godsend when you need to heal.

I expect better than that kind of stupid strawman coming from you, Int.

And I'd expect better from you than misapplying the word "strawman".

And what the fuck is Mist with Sonic Sword blowing out of the water? The fact is that Mist is taking this resource, and she does nothing special with it. The Sonic Sword is just as useful, if not more so, to use to kill Wyverns, than it is so that Mist can counter-attack. The Hammerne on the Brave Axe lets Haar ORKO just as well as it lets Mist ORKO.

Since when did the brave axe get 1-2 range? I must have missed a memo. Oops. Do let me play this hack, too.

Let me just summarise my point here.

You mean the "Mist must go down no matter what twisted logic is needed" point? (Now that's getting closer to a strawman, by the way, though still not quite the same)

If Mist can take a pile of BEXP plus a rare weapon plus Hammerne use to maintain it plus Arms Scrolls to have decent combat, this is not a 'point in her favour', since most units can do the same - with the added advantage that when the rare weapon breaks they're not reduced to complete dependency on forges just to ORKO unpromoted enemies. If, as you say, Mist isn't a combat unit and should stick to healing, then we are not going to put BEXP and Arms Scrolls on her since these are items that improve combat and they go to combat units.

You just gave her a hammerne use. Are you seriously telling me you need more than ~49 uses? Really?

The other units still get enough bexp. Did you happen to notice back when Int did his playthrough he had enough bexp leftover to promote Neph from base level when he got to chapter 18? Who is Mist preventing from getting bexp, anyway? And nobody beats what Mist does with an arms scroll.

"Why is what Mist does considerably worse than anything else that you can do?"

Let's look at your answer to this question:

Great answer. The fact you needed to sidestep the question should tell you something about the quality of your argument. Drop it before it starts to look worse for you.

I have no problem with Mist's supports. In fact, I don't think anyone does, which is why a massive argument hasn't erupted. What I do have a problem with is you acting like Mist's combat requiring a massive pile of resources to salvage is somehow not a problem for her, when we could spend those resources on other people. Oh, I'm sure that perhaps they don't need it if we have a team of ORKOing 9 move gods + Reyson, in which case I'm happy for Mist to cruise on their coat tails and give out support bonuses. But this list doesn't assume that kind of optimal deployment and never has.

Um, you say you have no problem with it, but you appear to be quite happy to deny what this means about Mist. She is making 2 other units a fair amount better with those bonuses, and what we dump on Mist allows us more freedom with her placements on the map, hence allowing those units to get their bonuses more often. Seems like a fair trade to me. What is it you have against Mist that prevents you from seeing that?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Narga and Int, how much BEXP would you give Mist to bump her up to acceptable combat parameters?

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga and Int, how much BEXP would you give Mist to bump her up to acceptable combat parameters?

Don't ask me. I haven't played in forever and barely hovered around max bexp turn numbers when I did. I've gotten much better since then, but I still can't be sure precisely how much cexp you can get her quickly nor what level is good to hit before promotion. Earlier in this topic level 10 was tossed around, and quite frankly if you do that you could probably get away with 400 bexp. Whether that is the best idea is another matter entirely.

If you can get her to level 16 (now this probably will take 1000 bexp + staff exp) then she has 15 AS with Sonic Sword (8 str and 16 spd for a 9 wt weapon). There isn't much in chapter 16 that actually has more than 11 AS. I think that is too much to ask for, though, quite frankly. Well, level 14 or 15 might work with some help from bands.

[Sol Hiryu]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold up a sec.

Isn't Soren's (and Ilyana's, as well) position on the list because they can get Seal'd early to gain early access to staves? If that's the case, trying to argue Soren's combat + average healing > Mist's healing + average combat is a bit of a moot point because he's probably becoming nothing but a healbot to try and get his staff rank up, since his combat will eventually taper off.

In either case, I disagree with moving Mist (and Volke) down because Soren's enemy phase is pretty atrocious in itself. Sure, he can get an Ike support easily enough, but that's not enough for him to not get run over by anything. Mist will already have a lead on him in staff rank, plus she gets massive bonuses from her support partners. If you early seal her as well, it's pretty much a battle between who can be more dependable on healing, which...is a no-brainer, honestly.

Trying to argue Level 20/whatever Soren over Mist in the first place is a ridiculous argument in itself.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Sol Hiryu

[Anouleth]

The point of Mist is to have a healer and support battery that can keep up with the front lines and if she happens to get attacked from time to time she doesn't suck terribly thanks to Sonic Sword. What is it that you are trying to get out of Mist?

Someone who can fight competently, obviously. I'm not going to give her all this stuff in the vague hope of her one day counter-attacking an enemy. If I cared that much about counter-attacks, I'd use Tormod who can do it forever.

If you are letting her get attacked 12 times and kill things, then at that point it doesn't seem so bad to let her do it again, right? I mean, if you are playing in such a way where your healer gets attacked so frequently it seems like you might as well. A brave, even killing in 3 hits, only gets 10 kills in this game and it doesn't even have 1-2 range. Seems to me like SS > Brave for hammerne.

Sure, except that Mist doesn't 2HKO everything under the sun with the SS and she shouldn't be attacked anyway since even with all these resources, her combat is a limited deal. Many characters can 2HKO with the Brave. Such as Haar.

And I see the value in having a healer that can counter-attack. I can imagine it's very useful for Rout maps, it's just a shame that Mist won't be tearing stuff up with the SS in time for any rout maps until Chapter 24 where her movement is limited. I simply don't think it's worth showering all these resources on her. I would be fine with Mist if all she needed with the SS. But that isn't it.

Except for the whole starting with E after promotion. Mist starts with E way back in chapter 9. He can't get an E until chapter 16. And in fe9 you can't even Arms Scroll for staff rank (unless you are promoted Rhys, I suppose). Also, didn't someone say that Sages can't get past C staves at all? (I kind of don't see why there would be a cap, but it has been said). Cap or not, how quickly is he getting to B, anyway? Plus, Mist has Canto and he doesn't. Hence, Mist does use it quite a bit better.

I'm not sure about a cap, but Tormod can probably reach B Rank in time otherwise. Staff rank builds insanely quickly.

And it's not like being a foot unit has no advantages. Tormod can shove, be shoved, and is easier to rescue. I said they were comparable, not equal.

Mounted Healer that doesn't suck at combat. Hello? The point isn't that we are trying to make her a fighter. Obviously you could make other units better fighters without bexp. And if you are promoting her at level 10, you can get it done in a lot less bexp than 1000. Between chapter 9 and 15 you have lots of opportunity to use staves including one chapter for torching and you can ward a bunch. You could probably promote Mist on 500 bexp or less. Which units aren't taking that much over the course of the game?

You DO NOT get a lot of chance between Chapter 9 and 15 to use staves. I've crunched the numbers. Even if we go right up to the max turn limit and Mist goes beyond the impossible and heals every turn and we never play pacifistically, Mist is going to be something in the region of level 7 or 8 when others are promoting. Maybe a little higher if Mist uses Ward and Torch. More realistically, she will be an even lower level. Mist is not just in the boat of needing BEXP to have good combat, she is in the boat of needing BEXP just to promote. I'm not going to begrudge her that - the pony is useful. However, I am totally 100% going to begrudge giving her BEXP just so she can make the occasional counter-attack.

Are you kidding me? How does some no magic nub that 3HKOs on a good day use the sword anywhere nearly as "productively" as Mist?

Well, if all Mist is going to use it for is to make the occasional counterattack, I'd feel comfortable recommending ANY combat unit for it over her. As it is, many units struggle with Wyverns and it's useful. Both are productive, but off the top of my head I can't really evaluate which one is more productive.

And if you for some dumb reason can't get rid of a wyvern any other way, then like he said make a trade. Mist can get it back 2 uses fewer. The weapons don't get locked to units once you hand one to them. These aren't fe10 Ragnell, BK Alondite, and Amiti. You can trade around a bit. Having Mist up at the front lines being something other than a liability is worth more than those other units nuking a wyvern anyway. Supports + healing. And wasn't it you that complained about the effort in grabbing Physics in this game, or was it someone else? Chapter 15 boots are higher priority. Some of the ones to steal require doing interesting things with Volke that may not work. Blah blah blah. If you only have one or two physics, seems to me like Little Miss Mounted is a godsend when you need to heal.

It's not that I can't get rid of wyverns any other way. It's that I don't want to. I can use the Brave weapons or the Vague Katti on any tough enemy such as laguz or Generals.

I'm not really sure that having Mist occasionally being able to counterattack is worth more than nuking wyverns anyway. If the worst comes to worst, she sits there and gets hit and tinks them in return. It's not the end of the world. This isn't RD Part 4 where you can lose two turns by a single slip-up on enemy phase allowing a billion reinforcements to materialise. It's not like there are even many Rout maps, or that Mist is even going to get enemy phase action in them since C18 is easily chokepointed and C19 is also easy to protect her on and C24 limits her movement so she's probably stuck to Physic.

And yes, Mist is great for healing. I am perfectly willing to put up with her lousy combat in exchange for not having to fuck around with Volke. But her combat is lousy.

And I'd expect better from you than misapplying the word "strawman".

I point out that without the Sonic Sword, Mist's combat is laughable, so the chances of her reaching the rank for SS naturally is low. Int compares this to denying Titania weapons. To be honest, since Mist is a healer primarily, the only thing you could do to her that would be comparable to denying Titania weapons is to deny her staves, which I have never suggested. Everything I have complained about giving to Mist is a limited resource.

Since when did the brave axe get 1-2 range? I must have missed a memo. Oops. Do let me play this hack, too.

Ooh, do let me play this game, too. When did Mist get Haar-level durability and 9 move and flight?

1-2 range is only really relevant for enemy phase, anyway. If you're seriously trying to suggest that Haar's enemy phase is inferior to Mist's because the Brave Axe has no 2-range, I suggest that you actually play the game you're arguing.

You just gave her a hammerne use. Are you seriously telling me you need more than ~49 uses? Really?

Well, to be honest, I'm not really sure how many uses Mist needs to do 'her thing', not having used her for this purpose before. However, I would not give a character 1000 BEXP and two Arms Scrolls just for twelve rounds of combat. Or less.

The other units still get enough bexp. Did you happen to notice back when Int did his playthrough he had enough bexp leftover to promote Neph from base level when he got to chapter 18? Who is Mist preventing from getting bexp, anyway? And nobody beats what Mist does with an arms scroll.

I can't find that playthrough myself, but I know how much BEXP is floating around. I know because you bring it up every five minutes to justify giving outlandish volumes of BEXP to people.

"Why is what Mist does considerably worse than anything else that you can do?"

Let's look at your answer to this question:

Great answer. The fact you needed to sidestep the question should tell you something about the quality of your argument. Drop it before it starts to look worse for you.

I do not need to answer questions that do not obey the rules of English grammar. In fact, I do not even remember seeing this question, which is probably why I did not answer it. I think I skimmed over it. I imagine the question is actually supposed to read like this:

"Why is it that what Mist does is considerably worse than anything else that you can do?"

Sadly, the question still does not make sense. What Mist does with Hammerne uses is not considerably worse than what other characters do. I never said it was. I just said that we have other things we could do with Hammerne. To act like it has no associated opportunity cost is incorrect.

Um, you say you have no problem with it, but you appear to be quite happy to deny what this means about Mist. She is making 2 other units a fair amount better with those bonuses, and what we dump on Mist allows us more freedom with her placements on the map, hence allowing those units to get their bonuses more often. Seems like a fair trade to me. What is it you have against Mist that prevents you from seeing that?

So what you are saying, is that these supports are so important to Mist's supporters, that it's justified to give her 1000 BEXP and the Sonic Sword and two Arms Scrolls so that she can position herself where she wants - not because otherwise, she wouldn't have the durability, but because otherwise, her offense would be bad enough that her inability to counterattack would hold us back?

To be honest, this all seems like conjecture to me. I suppose I'll see for myself in my own playthrough when Mist promotes, but until then, I am highly skeptical.

[-Cynthia-]

Isn't Soren's (and Ilyana's, as well) position on the list because they can get Seal'd early to gain early access to staves? If that's the case, trying to argue Soren's combat + average healing > Mist's healing + average combat is a bit of a moot point because he's probably becoming nothing but a healbot to try and get his staff rank up, since his combat will eventually taper off.

Soren's healing isn't really 'average' compared to Mist's, since he heals just about verything to full due to massive Mag anyway. Soren is probably spending most player phases healing (unless no one needs it, in which case he can use his player phase to kill something), but when he gets attacked on the enemy phase he can actually kill things. You probably don't want to expose Soren to huge amounts of enemies, but enemy rates tend to fall under 50% even with a C Ike.

In either case, I disagree with moving Mist (and Volke) down because Soren's enemy phase is pretty atrocious in itself. Sure, he can get an Ike support easily enough, but that's not enough for him to not get run over by anything. Mist will already have a lead on him in staff rank, plus she gets massive bonuses from her support partners. If you early seal her as well, it's pretty much a battle between who can be more dependable on healing, which...is a no-brainer, honestly.

How is staff rank all that relevant (especially in C11 or so) again? Soren heals ~23 HP with a Heal staff, that should bring most characters up to full. Staff Exp is also pretty easy to gain, 10 Heals to a D, then 4 more to a C. So Soren can probably use Physic after 3 chapters of healing or so. Not see where you're getting "more dependable healing" from.

Trying to argue Level 20/whatever Soren over Mist in the first place is a ridiculous argument in itself.

If Soren isn't being early Sealed obviously he's going to be 20/whatever and Mist is going to be a different level (probably lower, since combat exp is easier to gain than staff exp if we're playing efficiently).