FE9 Tier list v3

[Interceptor]

I am curious as to how you would get Mia/Zihark up to those levels in time for that chapter. I can see it happening, but it would basically require you dumping most/all of your BEXP on Zihark and most of it on Mia and letting her get an unusual amount of kills in her chapters.

It's actually fairly straightforward, though you'd only train one, not both. For Mia, a method I've found that's pretty efficient:

- Ch. 7: Mia is terrible, she can finish off Titania's leavings (w/ Iron Axe she leaves some enemies at single digit HP) or gum something to death herself.

- Ch. 8: BEXP Mia to level 10 or so, such that she can 3HKO/2RKO the Armors with the Armorslayer. This is very effective with Vantage.

- Ch. 9: Get Mia to the point where she can pwn face on the beach with Steel sword, Iron Blade, or a forge. Might only require finishing off a level with BEXP, or a couple BEXP'ed levels.

- Ch. 10: Either Mia fights the back door reinforcements here, or you stealth it.

- Ch. 11: A little more BEXP (finishing off a level perhaps), and Mia can handle the southwest more or less by herself while the 8-9MV units run to the Arrive square. She can also handle the southeast to some extent, despite WTD, because of Vantage.

- Ch. 12: BEXP Mia however far it takes to get her to 19 AS with a Laguzslayer (generally level 17 or 18).

For Zihark:

- No time to level in Ch. 11, so he requires a massive BEXP dump to get to level 16-17. It's almost your entire Stealth Clear's worth.

The BEXP is not as much as you might think, except in the case of Zihark where it's kind of a lot all at once. Mia/Zihark are your only real options for a low-turn clear of Ch. 12, because if you don't ORKO the final Raven as it gets to you, reinforcements show up and extend the chapter (it's a Rout). Only a Myrm doubling with the slayer, or perhaps Marcia that can get to 2HKO/ORKO, can pull this off without a RNG-manipulated crit.

[Narga_Rocks]

Good news on fixed mode is that Zihark only needs level 16 for 19 attack speed with laguzslayer. In fact, if you use a spd band 4 times during the bexp dump (and you probably don't want to have a weapon equipped), level 15 is sufficient on fixed mode. Of course, on random mode you'll likely need at least level 16 and may even need level 17. The man has 80 starting growth points in spd on fixed mode, so level 15's average of 18 spd is really 18.8 and thus bands are good enough.

Mia on fixed mode needs to be level 16 and will have 11.7 str and thus need some band usage but will hit 19 attack speed that way. On random mode, level 17 is probably good enough since bands or even luck can probably get you either 12 str or 20 spd, which results in 19 attack speed either way.

Advantage for Mia is she has more time to fight to get cexp and the bexp is spread out over more time (advantage of which being she is actually putting it to use for 4 more chapters than Zihark which automatically makes it a better deal even if she costs the exact same or a bit more, which she probably doesn't outside fixed mode).

(Actually, you can abuse the fixed mode system by way of bexp tricks to make it even easier to get Mia str and spd quickly. In fact, aside from magic you can boost/not hurt all her growths at once by equipping a spd band (and no weapon) and giving her bexp 4 points at a time. It would take a while, though, but her growths over 4 levels become:

2 hp, 2 str, 1 mag, 2 skl, 3 spd, 2 lck, 1 def, 1 res

instead of

2 hp, 1.6 str, 1.2 mag, 1.8 skl, 2.4 spd, 1.8 lck, 0.8 def, 1 res.

(well, with that spd band it is 2.6 spd, I suppose)

Effectively giving her

75% growth in spd

50% growth in hp, str, skl, lck.

25% growth in mag, def, res.

It has to do with the fact that the game counts growth points each time you level and uses exp gained x growth to determine growth points awarded. And it rounds to the nearest whole number rather than down or simply giving you a real number rather than an integer. Every time you level while having 100+ growth points, it gives you a point and subtracts 100 from the total. In the case of laguz hp, if you have 200+ it will give 2 points and subtract 200 from the total. This can be abused for different characters by giving different amounts of bexp at a time with the right weapon and band in order to get a good boost to stats without losing anything important.

Mia can actually be given sets of 3 and sets of 4 in combination as long as you give her a sword band for the sets of 3.

Her growth points look like this:

1.5, 1.2, 0.9, 1.5, 1.8, 1.5, 0.6, 0.75.

which rounds to

2 hp, 1 str, 1 mag, 2 skl, 2 spd, 2 lck, 1 def, 1 res.

And over 3 levels will result in that many points, effectively giving her:

66.67% hp growth, 33.33% str growth, 33.33% mag growth, 66.67% skl growth, 66.67% spd growth, 66.67% lck growth, 33.33% def growth, 33.33% res growth.

Which, aside from str, obviously gives a fairly big boost in things like hp, skl, lck, def, which were 50%, 45+5%, 45+5%, 20%.

A balance of sets of 4 (with a spd band) with sets of 3 (with a sword band) would boost many of her stats without hurting str.

You might even be able to find a better way to abuse those stats.)

Edited May 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

I am all for taking Fixed mode into account, particularly because it makes for some pretty clean comparisons. But as far as it involves abuse of the mechanics: down that road lies nothing but madness. I understand that it's partially unavoidable in the course of normal play because you're always going to be getting fractional stat points from combat, but for BEXP in base I'd argue that it's probably better to just assume that full levels are given out all at once.

[Narga_Rocks]

I am all for taking Fixed mode into account, particularly because it makes for some pretty clean comparisons. But as far as it involves abuse of the mechanics: down that road lies nothing but madness. I understand that it's partially unavoidable in the course of normal play because you're always going to be getting fractional stat points from combat, but for BEXP in base I'd argue that it's probably better to just assume that full levels are given out all at once.

I thought for a tier list we'd just be assuming random mode anyway. And yes, if we were to incorporate fixed mode into tiering we'd have to assume you are bumping to 99 exp and then giving sets of 100 after that point to make it cheap and quick and more in-line with the proper growths. Just look at what giving Lethe 1 point at a time will do and you know there would be weird things with the list after that. (Lethe gets str + skl + spd + lck every single level. Only 1 hp and no def, but come on. she may end up a glass cannon, but she'll end up a glass cannon with 33 mt at level 13 with the demiband. 36mt for the first few turns if you don't equip it till a bit into each map. And 23 spd (25 the first couple of turns). 25 luck makes for 71 avo. 22 skill makes for 44 + 25 + 90 = 159 hit.)

It was more an aside than anything else, really. Just something you can do if you want to make unrecognizable characters.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Snowy_One]

Ignore this if it was already asked, but what would it take for Marcia to do the same on chapter 12?

[Anouleth]

Fixed Mode and Random Mode aren't radically different for the majority of characters. Only a handful of characters with either tons of base points or almost no base points are affected, and even with them it's only by a few points. It's only when you manipulate the system into rounding up that a character might be significantly better or significantly worse, and I agree with Interceptor that abusing BEXP in that way is a slippery slope.

And it's significantly nicer in the sense you don't need to muck around with figuring out how likely characters are to have X in any given stat.

Ignore this if it was already asked, but what would it take for Marcia to do the same on chapter 12?

Depends on what you're asking for. If you want a clear as fast as Mia/Zihark's, she probably needs about the same level they have in order to be able to weaken the boss so it can die on enemy phase. But if you want to go craaaaazy and dump 1500 BEXP (50% of all available BEXP) on her, she can be 20/01 and 1-round every Raven and 2-round the boss, so she's saving even more turns than Mia/Zihark would.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[Snowy_One]

So Pimp Marcia > Mia > Marcia > Zihark for chapter 12?

[Anouleth]

More like Pimp Marcia > Pimp Mia = Pimp Zihark > Regular Marcia > Regular Mia > Regular Zihark. Except that Marcia is greedy with her pimping gear, she needs like a forge and 1500 BEXP to turn everyone else into her bitch.

[Interceptor]

There's a limit to how many turns that Marcia can save, since she can only be in one place at a time. There are five guys plus the boss that start on the map that need to be killed. It just so happens that Mia/Zihark can be positioned such that the last surviving Raven will suicide on them the same turn that reinforcements would normally arrive (so they never come, and thus the chapter is cleared). The only advantage Marcia has here is either doing the same thing (one-rounding), or using her flight to get a whack on the raven during Enemy Phase, and using Player Phase to finish it off.

So realistically, Marcia is not saving "turns", and might not even save "turn" unless she's Level Ridiculous and wipes out the last guy on Enemy Phase. This is conjecture on my part, since I don't know how the AI reacts to flying her out over the water. If the far-flung Ravens head for her instead of for the main part of the ship with the rest of your units, it could mess up the whole deal.

Forge is not a problem for Marcia I think. Chapter 12 is your fifth chance to forge, and Steel is not yet available. Jill wants a lance ASAP, but she can use the slot in Ch13 (last one before Steel comes into play) for hers. The BEXP, however, is a sizable problem for super-Marcia. There's a lot of BEXP in this game, but only for moderate sized teams that only level up to reasonable platform levels (AKA, getting Kieran to enough SPD to double, but then stopping), not for super-powering one or two units. THAT will cause shortages, no doubt about it.

[Narga_Rocks]

Let's be realistic about Marcia, though. Iron forge has 12 mt. Marcia appears in chapter 9 at level 5. Mia appears in chapter 7 at level 6. Mia has more chapters for cexp and more chapters in which to make use of the bexp we give her (chapter 8 and 9). Mia only actually needs level 16 on a fair run of fixed mode (assuming some band use) to get 19 attack speed with the laguzslayer. 10 levels with bexp + 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 for cexp. 8 and beyond she'll actually be decent or good thanks to bexp in chapter 8. Marcia has the tail end of 9 + 10, 11 for cexp. But how many levels does she need?

Well, 12 mt weapon and she needs to have 26 mt if you want to reliably ORKO the 30 hp, 11 def Ravens. There are some that won't even die from that, but whatever. To get that same spd, Marcia needs level 18 on fixed mode (18.15 spd + 80 growth points means very limited band usage does the trick). This also gives her 13 str. To get all of them, she'll need to get to level 19, maybe 20, depending on bands, because there are probably some 16 speed guys. Mia also needs to level during the chapter. But for now, lets focus on the 15 spd, 30 hp, 11 def guys.

Level 18 Marcia. Level 16 Mia. Mia also can 2HKO the boss and Marcia 3HKOs. Mia needs 10 levels in 5 chapters. Marcia needs 13 levels in 3 chapters.

I don't think I need to say much more about the cost of getting Marcia to where she needs to be relative to the cost to get Mia where she needs to be.

Then there is Zihark that needs 5 levels on fixed mode all at once.

Zihark needs 6 or even 7 levels on random. Mia needs to be level ~17. Maybe 18. Marcia needs to be level 19 or 20. Whether it is fixed mode or random mode, Mia is still considerably cheaper than Marcia. Also, Mia is taking a sword you are given. Marcia takes something you need to make causing you to give up the ability to make something else.

And v Zihark, Mia can get a fair amount of what is needed from cexp so she may not actually need more bexp than he does. eg armors in chapter 8 and Nedata and friends in chapter 9. And a fair portion of chapter 11. And you are benefiting from the bexp for an extra 4 chapters. 3 if you are stealthing chapter 10.

[Anouleth]

Oh, but we have other benefits from BEXPing Marcia. It lets us 2-turn chapter 15, and Marcia is helping us push forward for the entire game due to her movement advantage. Forging a max mt Iron forge is something we are likely to do anyway at some point, whether it's for Nephenee or Oscar or Marcia. I guess it's fairly expensive though.

I mean, don't get me wrong here. Pimp Marcia is a boon in Chapter 12, but 1500 BEXP is a seriously large load to dump on her, and like Int, I'm not certain that it will necessarily save us a turn over using Mia. Ofc, the best strategy for C12 is to BEXP Marcia and one of Mia/Zihark, which gives us a 2-turn clear and paves the way for a fast clear of Chapters 14 and 15 as well, but I'm not sure if that damages us more in the long-term than we save in the short term. If you're wondering:

It's that, except replace Kieran with Mia/Zihark and Titania with 'everyone else on your team'. Mia can kill her two Ravens on enemy phase, and the north Raven can be ganged up on during player phase.

And since the reason Mia is good is that she can kill on enemy phase and save us two turns, then surely if Marcia/Jill weaken the boss enough that it can die on enemy phase, they've accomplished the same goal? I think that works.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, but we have other benefits from BEXPing Marcia. It lets us 2-turn chapter 15, and Marcia is helping us push forward for the entire game due to her movement advantage. Forging a max mt Iron forge is something we are likely to do anyway at some point, whether it's for Nephenee or Oscar or Marcia. I guess it's fairly expensive though.

Marcia can 2 turn chapter 15 without needing massive amounts of bexp. Marcia can easily get enough bexp to do that at the same time that one of Mia/Zihark gets enough to pwn chapter 12 at the same time you get Jill going and get Kieran able to double...

There is a lot of bexp as long as it is used well. I don't think giving Marcia 1500 bexp in chapter 11 or 12 is using it well.

I mean, don't get me wrong here. Pimp Marcia is a boon in Chapter 12, but 1500 BEXP is a seriously large load to dump on her, and like Int, I'm not certain that it will necessarily save us a turn over using Mia. Ofc, the best strategy for C12 is to BEXP Marcia and one of Mia/Zihark, which gives us a 2-turn clear and paves the way for a fast clear of Chapters 14 and 15 as well, but I'm not sure if that damages us more in the long-term than we save in the short term. If you're wondering:

It's that, except replace Kieran with Mia/Zihark and Titania with 'everyone else on your team'. Mia can kill her two Ravens on enemy phase, and the north Raven can be ganged up on during player phase.

And since the reason Mia is good is that she can kill on enemy phase and save us two turns, then surely if Marcia/Jill weaken the boss enough that it can die on enemy phase, they've accomplished the same goal? I think that works.

I have no idea where this final bird is that Mia needs to KO. From the sounds of it, you'll be killing the boss before this thing, actually, unless you promote Marcia and go like the video. Now, if Marcia can double it then Pimp Marcia would be able to kill it, too. But give her the exact same amount of bexp as Mia or Zihark needs and she'll probably be level 14 or less (and not able to do what is in the video or match what Mia can do with that much bexp). If you attack on player phase and counter on enemy phase, maybe it'll work, though, unless the guy can heal (not sure if any have vulneraries or like using them if they do).

I have no idea what the effect on later chapters will be if you give Marcia enough. I don't know how much is left over for the other units that need it.

[Zkirsche]

Same place. By the way, we can also BEXP dump Jill, in addition to your random Myrmidon and Marcia, and still have enough BEXP left over for arts and crafts.

I'll take your word for it.

It's marginal because Ike's added durability doesn't let him do anything spectacular. He's locked to 1-range, has 6MV, can't Canto, doesn't fly. Even if he was 12HKO'ed, his offense is weaksauce and he can't get anywhere because he's forever getting blocked by enemy units. The worst outcome for Marcia is that she's always getting hit, and has to return to get healed. Not only is that easy to do with her mobility, but we have two healers and neither of them are combatants here.

It still lets him do things though. Marcia's stuck to 2-3 battles per turn. Oh and if getting blocked by enemy units is such a problem, then clearly there's enougth enemy units to give him more battles per turn. Oh and by the way, Marcia's offence is weaksauce too.

It's fine if we have Marcia hit and run, but unless you want to put the healers under threat that means Marcia's limited to 1 battle a turn.

If Marcia was getting 2HKO'ed (and not by Archers, thank you, who she ORKOs from outside their effective range without even getting hit in return), that would be a horse of a different color. However, she does not. Against most enemies, she has enough durability to do what needs doing.

Ah yes, I forgot that archers couldn't move to attack Marcia and only Marcia can attack them. Oh well. Oh and getting 3RKO'ed at high hit rates means that what needs doing is 2-3 battles a turn. Which is easily passable and nowhere near the worth of that bexp you gave her. If she became super tank like Mia in FE10 wit hresources, then fine. But if I can get Oscar/Jill, who are both far better units ORKO'ing faster or simply giving Brom a ton of bexp with the KW after it comes at the end of the chapter. Hell, Astrid and Nephenee probably want some too.

Your sarcasm fails. Marcia doesn't always get hit on Player Phase (the enemy misses, she finished it off, or it couldn't counter her), she can get healed by the end of Player Phase, and finally she also doesn't always get 3HKO'ed (like versus mages), which makes your house of cards fall apart.

Whoa, 2 enemy phase battles, soooo much better.

Mages are a perfect example of why you can't just hand-wave 1-2 range. If Marcia equips even a regular javelin, any of those mages in this level will walk into her and die. End of story. Go directly to Fail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. WTD is nice, but it only matters when it matters. Ike doesn't care about 15 mt from a loldier, this is not an interesting story, everyone rocks those guys.

Well actually, the mages will prefer to attack someone without range. Besides, if 1-2 range was such a problem, having Marcia get healed would be very dangerous for healers as they'll worry about getting attacked by said 1-2 ranged threats who apparently mean so much targetting them on the player phase is quite frankly an impossible idea. Heck, if you get marcia to target archers on player phase, I see no reason for us to prioritise mages for Ike to kill.

If you have two choices:

1) Invincible Jill who cares about nothing, and one Marcia/Manith who has to skirt around the edges of ballista range because they will get blicked

2) Strong Jill who still ignores Archers and gets 3HKO'ed by ballistas, plus a Marcia/Manith that can actually operate inside ballista range

... and you pick option #1, I will say that you are being inefficient. Jill cannot be in two places at once. I would take the option of having two fliers who can generally be effective inside bow range, instead of Jill hogging the FG and making the entire range of ballista fire a no-fly zone for your peg.

Btw, it's 2HKO'ed, which you even said earlier.

Oh and there's still manith, who has reinforcements, which is pretty useful. Of course, you conveniently avoided that part.

[dondon151]

I could preach about flier utility, but I have the feeling that it would be lost on you.

[Zkirsche]

Oh no, I can understand how flying utility can be useful. For chapter 15 and 17 it is a blessing straight from god. But later on the ballistae turn it into a curse and earlier on I just don't think Marcia has the durability to make said flying utility matter.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'll take your word for it.

Or try it yourself. There is a ton of bexp. Just make sure you aren't giving unit A bexp beyond the point where it is more valuable on unit B. Overleveling to the point where the gain from 100 more bexp on unit A is less than the gain from 100 more bexp on unit B means it is a bad idea if you give that 100 bexp to unit A.

It still lets him do things though. Marcia's stuck to 2-3 battles per turn. Oh and if getting blocked by enemy units is such a problem, then clearly there's enougth enemy units to give him more battles per turn. Oh and by the way, Marcia's offence is weaksauce too.

Depends on what you attack. If she is at a good level then there is actually plenty she can kill or bring down to OHKO range for stuff. As for Ike getting blocked, it can be as simple as one unit getting in his way at a chokepoint or even a partial chokepoint preventing Ike from moving forward. It doesn't have to be like a swarm of 5.

It's fine if we have Marcia hit and run, but unless you want to put the healers under threat that means Marcia's limited to 1 battle a turn.

8 move + canto. If you send her somewhere hoping she doesn't get hit with no safe options if she does, that's a bad idea. If you prepare for either possibility then you should be able to have her step back far enough that healing is safe in the rare instance Marcia actually gets hit.

Ah yes, I forgot that archers couldn't move to attack Marcia and only Marcia can attack them.

Learn tactics, then? Marcia has 8 move. They have 6.

A........M

......A..M
AM........

You might notice that the archer can't attack Marcia. It is literally impossible, short of fe5 move stars or the enemy suddenly figuring out they can shove too, for that archer to attack Marcia. Marcia, on the other hand, can fly in on her turn and ORKO. How is that complicated?

And this isn't even going into things like chapter 13 where there is water in the way.

W= water

w= wall of ship

A..wWM

The archer still can't attack Marcia but she can fly in and attack him. And notice she can even canto back out over the water in this instance after attacking the thing in case there are too many other enemies around. And this isn't restricted to this one map. It happens in a lot of places where terrain makes it easy for Marcia to get the jump on archers. They really shouldn't be a problem.

Oh well. Oh and getting 3RKO'ed at high hit rates means that what needs doing is 2-3 battles a turn. Which is easily passable and nowhere near the worth of that bexp you gave her. If she became super tank like Mia in FE10 wit hresources, then fine. But if I can get Oscar/Jill, who are both far better units ORKO'ing faster or simply giving Brom a ton of bexp with the KW after it comes at the end of the chapter. Hell, Astrid and Nephenee probably want some too.

The others can't fly, Brom/Neph can't go anywhere near as far. Only Jill is relevant, but Jill can get her bexp at the same time. And you'll still be giving Oscar enough bexp for him to do his thing and the others as well.

Whoa, 2 enemy phase battles, soooo much better.

Than 1? Yes. Marcia flies in, KOs one enemy (no counter because it is an archer or she takes little damage because it's a mage), then counters the other 2 that are there. That's 3 things dead or dying and she went and got them somewhere no other unit could even reach (except Jill) until chapter 18 when you get more fliers.

Well actually, the mages will prefer to attack someone without range. Besides, if 1-2 range was such a problem, having Marcia get healed would be very dangerous for healers as they'll worry about getting attacked by said 1-2 ranged threats who apparently mean so much targetting them on the player phase is quite frankly an impossible idea. Heck, if you get marcia to target archers on player phase, I see no reason for us to prioritise mages for Ike to kill.

What? First off, the healers are only relevant when Marcia needs to bail. Chances are, you aren't getting her to counter some 1-2 range enemy at that point. However, when Marcia isn't needing to bail, that 1-2 range can be good. And considering you can have Jill + Oscar + Titania + Kieran running around with 8/9 move and 1-2 range all at once, and these are all amazing units that you are probably using, I'd think Marcia being able to help them out with mages/whatever and also have 1-2 range is cool. It means that Marcia isn't screwing up the enemy phase with her 1 range lock. And it isn't that we are trying to make Ike kill the mages. It is that they may be outside our range on player phase and thus they come to us on enemy phase. At this point, it's awfully cool if we don't have units around that can't counterkill those things so that nobody has to bother with them on the following player phase.

Btw, it's 2HKO'ed, which you even said earlier.

Was he talking about Jill or Marcia? I'm pretty sure he said that Marcia is 2HKOd without the full guard. Jill has better hp/def, right? Isn't it logical that Jill may be 3HKOd while Marcia is 2HKOd?

Oh and there's still manith, who has reinforcements, which is pretty useful. Of course, you conveniently avoided that part.

Tanith can use reinforcements without needing a full guard and Marcia has much better martial stats to do things within a ballista's range. Maybe he was giving you too much credit when he "conveniently avoided that part" and thought you could figure it out on your own. Guess not, though. You'd rather take any slight opening you perceive and attack it.

Best part of all this?

If you have two choices:

1) Invincible Jill who cares about nothing, and one Marcia/Manith who has to skirt around the edges of ballista range because they will get blicked

2) Strong Jill who still ignores Archers and gets 3HKO'ed by ballistas, plus a Marcia/Manith that can actually operate inside ballista range

... and you pick option #1, I will say that you are being inefficient. Jill cannot be in two places at once. I would take the option of having two fliers who can generally be effective inside bow range, instead of Jill hogging the FG and making the entire range of ballista fire a no-fly zone for your peg.

He mentioned Manith.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

It still lets him do things though. Marcia's stuck to 2-3 battles per turn. Oh and if getting blocked by enemy units is such a problem, then clearly there's enougth enemy units to give him more battles per turn. Oh and by the way, Marcia's offence is weaksauce too.

Those "some things" are worse than what we're getting out of Marcia. Let's put an old Smash meme to work:

1. FE10 OSCAR
   
2. OVERKILL DURABILITY FROM SUPPORTS
   
3. SHITTY MT
   
4. NO HORSE
   
5. NO CANTO
   
6. NO DOUBLING FAST UNITS
   
7. 1-RANGE ONLY
   
8. FINAL DESTINATION
   

What the christ is Ike doing, aside from recruiting Astrid and Gatrie? You don't clear chapters by not dying. Marcia is winning every meaningful offensive parameter and flies squares and triangles around Ike. Not only is she more useful for actually breaking blockades, but her durability is "good enough" to pull it off.

It's fine if we have Marcia hit and run, but unless you want to put the healers under threat that means Marcia's limited to 1 battle a turn.

Unless any of the things that I said come to pass (the enemy misses, she finished it off, or it couldn't counter her). I'm assuming here that you're not arguing that Marcia always faces 1-2 range counters at 100% listed hit by enemies at full health.

Ah yes, I forgot that archers couldn't move to attack Marcia and only Marcia can attack them. Oh well.

Take your passive-aggressive BS somewhere else. Archers don't fly, can get blocked off by other units, and have less MV + bow range than Marcia's reach. She dominates archers because of the geography (and ORKOing them also helps).

Oh and getting 3RKO'ed at high hit rates means that what needs doing is 2-3 battles a turn. Which is easily passable and nowhere near the worth of that bexp you gave her. If she became super tank like Mia in FE10 wit hresources, then fine. But if I can get Oscar/Jill, who are both far better units ORKO'ing faster or simply giving Brom a ton of bexp with the KW after it comes at the end of the chapter. Hell, Astrid and Nephenee probably want some too.

You've laid out a false choice here. I can have Mia/Zihark, Jill, Oscar, Kieran, Soren/Ilyana and Boyd all kicking ass and taking names, and still have enough BEXP left to smooth over Marcia's shaky earlygame. Fuck Brom and his shit MV and not-doubling-anytime-soon.

Well actually, the mages will prefer to attack someone without range. Besides, if 1-2 range was such a problem, having Marcia get healed would be very dangerous for healers as they'll worry about getting attacked by said 1-2 ranged threats who apparently mean so much targetting them on the player phase is quite frankly an impossible idea. Heck, if you get marcia to target archers on player phase, I see no reason for us to prioritise mages for Ike to kill.

Considering that Marcia can completely ignore terrain, bypassing all of your other non-Jill units, setting up situations for mages to attack her are about as troublesome as a rainy day.

Btw, it's 2HKO'ed, which you even said earlier.

It's 3HKO'ed. Ballistas have 36 effective mt, which means that Jill starts seeing 3HKO survival chances around 20/4 or so.

Oh and there's still manith, who has reinforcements, which is pretty useful. Of course, you conveniently avoided that part.

Yes, I am the Harry Houdini of debate sleight of hand, somehow appearing to not mention Manith even though I actually did. Your logic is bankrupt and falls apart as soon as you reverse the comparison. If Marcia can't get FG because Jill and Manith exist, I suppose when we do Manith comparisons that he can't have it because Marcia and Jill want it?

This resource-distribution famine bullshit of yours needs to die in a fire.

Never mind that this Ch13 snapshot is utterly irrelevant to begin with. Consider that the chapter is never going to be faster than the maximum number of turns, since it's straight Defend. This means that a lot of what happens here is self-improvement, other than the initial push to get enemies off of the second ship. Take a wild guess at who is better amongst Marcia and Ike at the most important task here.

EDIT: MORIAAAAAARTY!

Edited May 4, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

EDIT: MORIAAAAAARTY!

Oops.

But I really wanted to point out the range thing. I couldn't get over that comment about how archers apparently don't move at all. I mean, you had even specifically said:

"who she ORKOs from outside their effective range without even getting hit in return"

I haven't a clue why he even bothered complaining that you were pretending they don't move. short of longbow, they can't attack her. And when she promotes and isn't fighting snipers with longbows, the archers with longbows are still killed without giving them a chance to attack her. I mean, it's not like you were holding back key information that would have let him know why you were saying archers aren't a problem.

[Colonel M]

I don't exactly see how flying can be a "curse" in all honesty. Even with the Balliste ordeal, just slap the Full Guard on Jill, have her swoop to KO said Balliste unit, then have everyone run free. Not to mention there's a hefty amount of terrain in this game. I can definitely say that Marcia is one of the only units aside from Jill and Tanith that can aid in the low turn of Shiharam's chapter. There's also Chapter 17, which I don't recall you mentioning (maybe you did, I dunno kirsche) that is HEAVY in terrain (oh look another reason that I want Brom / maybe Gatrie down: helluva lot of terrain). Just flight alone gives us nifty strategies and choices to help lowturn chapters overall. Then you have to really ask yourself how common Archers are past Chapter 13.

Ike is good, but he stands as a mediocre unit until he nabs Oscar support. Even then he's not completely destroying house. Regal Blade is only good on Mounts anyway, though granted they are common enough at times (Chapters 8 and 11 come to mind). He otherwise just seems like an average man with decent durability. Lack of 2 range is a kick in the balls IMO as well.

[-Cynthia-]

I have to agree with Colonel M on the ballista point. Sure, ballistae are bad for fliers, but on a chapter like C25, the benefits of flight outweigh the penalties, since everyone else has terrible Mov and is getting owned by rocks.

[Shadow Mir]

Oops.

But I really wanted to point out the range thing. I couldn't get over that comment about how archers apparently don't move at all. I mean, you had even specifically said:

"who she ORKOs from outside their effective range without even getting hit in return"

I haven't a clue why he even bothered complaining that you were pretending they don't move. short of longbow, they can't attack her. And when she promotes and isn't fighting snipers with longbows, the archers with longbows are still killed without giving them a chance to attack her. I mean, it's not like you were holding back key information that would have let him know why you were saying archers aren't a problem.

And there's the fact that if they DO have longbows, longbows are just plain laughable with their lol 5 (10 effective) might and 65 accuracy.

[Narga_Rocks]

And there's the fact that if they DO have longbows, longbows are just plain laughable with their lol 5 (10 effective) might and 65 accuracy.

To tell you the truth, I'd actually be worried a little about snipers with longbows. +15 crit is annoying. Of course, it's possible they might fail to 3HKO anyway (I think they might fail) so if she must face them (rather than some other unit) then it could probably be done safely.

[Shadow Mir]

To tell you the truth, I'd actually be worried a little about snipers with longbows. +15 crit is annoying. Of course, it's possible they might fail to 3HKO anyway (I think they might fail) so if she must face them (rather than some other unit) then it could probably be done safely.

Well, you have a point there. But are there even that many longbow snipers? IIRC, there's one in chapter 24, one in chapter 25, and one in chapter 26. Well, there's also Norris, but as he doesn't move until late in chapter 13 (and you could simply surround him by then), meh.

EDIT: Oh, and there's one in chapter 20.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Richter Lanford

[Anouleth]

Okay, I argued this successfully on Smash's list on GFAQs. Will it succeed here?

Tormod > Ilyana

Tormod joins, we give him kill favouritism and a Seal, he's 15/1 in C18:

15/1 Tormod

28HP 5.6STR 15.6MAG 14.2SKL 14.6SPD 10.8LUK 8DEF 14.6RES

20/1 Ilyana

30.3HP 6.5STR 16MAG 18.3SKL 15.2SPD 12.3LUK 7.1DEF 19RES

Obviously, Ilyana is winning in terms of raw statistics, but Tormod has something more important - a movement lead, so he can move further and keep up with your Paladins and Fliers. Tormod moves in three turns as far as Ilyana does in four turns, so he will be able to heal better and attack more enemies. In addition, Ilyana's minor statistical advantage will eventually be eroded - Tormod has the prospect of B Reyson and a possible A Calill, for +5mt, so he will eventually beat Ilyana in attack, even if she gets Mia and Mordecai supports. His speed growth is also 15% higher and on fixed mode he has 50 speed base points, so he will beat her in speed as well. This, combined with his movement advantage, mean that from C18 onwards, Tormod beats Ilyana, eventually by a large margin. This victory is worth more than the price of giving Tormod some kills and a Master Seal, which only Mist and Rhys are interested in, and we won't be using both Mist and Rhys so one will be available for Tormod. Ilyana has earlygame, but she's not amazingly good there and is generally one of our worst units, so should she really be credited for it?

(I didn't really go into much detail or consider the possibility of BEXP, since it was Smash's list, but I think the same argument could apply here. If Tormod doesn't go above Ilyana he should at least be in the same tier as her.)

[Narga_Rocks]

Tormod joins at level 7. I'm pretty sure Int would tell you that when you start chapter 16 Ilyana should already be at or near promotion. In other words, comparing 20/1 Ilyana to a 15/1 Tormod makes me ask how you'd manage to get Tormod 8 levels in the time Ilyana gets like 2. Any bexp heading his way could go to her instead so that's not the answer. I think an 8 move sage would be sweet, but that alone doesn't justify giving him about 4 times as much bexp as she's getting from chapter 16 on. Any bexp she got earlier also doesn't entitle him to any because she's been using that bexp to help us.