FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

Soren and Ilyana have the same Mov, though they do take less terrain penalties.

Anyway, it's not just durability. Brom also has 1-2 range (which the SMs lack), and enough Str to ORKO when he doubles (unlike the SMs generally). Brom also has pretty great supports (Water affinity with Zihark/Boyd/Neph).

What consititutes too much KW usage is debatable. However, even with just a fair amount Brom doubles most things post-promotion. His offense pre-promotion is pretty poor though. If anyone thinks Brom should move down below a specific character, a direct comparison should probably be made.

Edited May 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

I'm just saying,for example,chapter 26(random Chapter).

A 20/13 Brom(and I don't think he should be quite that high,but the Speed rounds nicely) has 15 AS before KW.If he uses it for 12 level ups(50%),then he hits 19 AS,which only doubles 27/50 Enemies.If he only gets 18 AS,which he is borderline on,then he only catches 23/50.

In comparison,a 20/10 Mia with some Str band usage and A/B Rhys/Ilyana has 35 Mt with a Silver Sword,which cleanly ORKO's 26/50 enemies.If she is at 20/13 like our example Brom,she nets another 6,for 32/50.And the ones that she doesn't kill are left far more damaged than the ones he doesn't kill,plus she has Crit,and potentially Wrath to increase her kill rate.

And this is a post promo,probably overlevelled Brom,so he is at his likely best.

[-Cynthia-]

50% KW is a little stingy. If we're using the KW efficiently, Brom should be getting most of his levelups through BEXP, where he'll of course have it on.

Still 20/13 was somewhat generous, and Brom does have some Mov issues as well, so I could see him gong down.

Edited May 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

Okay,a more in Depth look at Mia Vs. Brom.

First,Mia has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 before Brom Exists.

When Brom joins,Mia is probably level ~13,gaining 4 levels of BEXP in the chapter 8 base(396 BEXP),and then 3 levels throughout the maps.

Brom likely does not use any BEXP here,because he does not want to burn level ups before the KW is even accessable.He will take his BEXP in the Chapter 14 Base,if I have no objections.

So,Mia is clearly better than Brom In chapters 7,8,9,10,11,12,and 13,simply due to Brom's mediocre base stats,and a level advantage.

When we get to the base of 14,I will assume both have gained 4 levels,so Mia is at 17/0,and Brom is at 12/0.

Using 396 Exp,like Mia did,puts Brom at 15/0,and they will likely both be given the same BEXP from here on out.

17/0 Mia (C/C Rhys/Ilyana) (26 Hp,9 Def,11 Cev)

@ Iron Blade: 21Mt,116 Hit,16 AS,43 Avo,7 Crt

@ Steel Sword: 20 Mt,121 Hit,19 AS,49 Avo,7 Crt

@ Steel Forge: 25 Mt,121-146 Hit,20 AS,51 Avo,16 Crt

@ Killing Edge: 21 mt,121 Hit,20 AS,51 Avo,37 Crt

15/0 Brom(C Zihark) (33 Hp,17 Def,5 Cev)

@ Steel Lance: 23Mt,99 Hit,10 AS,30 Avo,6 Crt

@ Javelin: 19 Mt,89 Hit,10 AS,30 Avo,6 Crt

@ Steel Forge: 28Mt,124 Hit,10 AS,30 Avo,15 Crt

@ Killer lance: 23Mt,99 Hit,10 AS,30 Avo,36 Crt

So here we have offense vs. defense.

Unfortunately,we do not have full stats for this chapter,but Brom is not doubling with 10 AS,and Gashilama has 14,so While Brom cannot go near him,ir means that Mia is securedly doubling most of the map.

As well,Brom faces some hit issues if he is not using a forge,and is likely 3RKOing most things.

After this,we have the Desert,then the mess that is chapter 17,full of terrain,so Mia automatically beats him here.

So,by this point,Mia has been solidly thrashing Brom for 13 maps,and I am not goping in depth for chapter 16,but again,it is offense vs. defense.Mia also has B/B supports at that time,for +1 def and +2 Mt,and is likely promoted for this map,while Brom isn't,so she has no problem beating him here either.

So,Mia has won the first 14 maps,and they only have 12 more maps together,and that several are either terrain heavy,overly large,or are still in his "Not enough KW yet",stage,I don't see him coming out on top,especially since once he hits promotion,Mia is only a map or two from Wrath.

So,IMO,Brom should atleast drop below Zihark,Mia,and Soren.I might argue for Stefan and Ilyana later if no one else does.

[Interceptor]

It strikes me as a little silly to point out that [slow-ass General] can double [X% of chapter's enemies], since in all likelihood they are only going to be able to reach some small portion of those targets, as every non-mage unit is leaving them in the dust mobility-wise. What possible contribution is Brom making to game completion when you have 8-9MV re-moving badasses with better offense than him? Some random Rout map where it's feasible to send him off in a different direction?

At least everyone and their mother can shove Mia to give her 6-7MV a tactical boost.

[-Cynthia-]

The thing is that Brom's not losing by that much Mov to the people immediately around him, 1 to the SMs, 0 to the mages. Garbted, he's terrible compared to flyers and cavs, but he's already below them. The mounted units can't shove people like Mia anyway, so that means we'll have to have foot units to do the shoving anyway. And if we have a foot unit dedicated to shoving (like Mordy), he can Smite Brom and Mia.

Basically, Mia's Mov advantage is fairly small. Brom's doubling capabilities may havde been overrated though.

[Snowy_One]

Question. How easy is it to shove/rescue Brom? That's a fairly big factor in movement.

[Shadow Mir]

Question. How easy is it to shove/rescue Brom? That's a fairly big factor in movement.

Well, only mounted units (and laguz units) can rescue him, and shoving him... Hmmm... Something tells me that only laguz can shove Brom, pretty much.

[dondon151]

The thing is that Brom's not losing by that much Mov to the people immediately around him, 1 to the SMs, 0 to the mages. Garbted, he's terrible compared to flyers and cavs, but he's already below them.

Losing by 1 move is already significant. Armors in FE6-8 lost 1 move to other foot units and were pretty unusable offensively (granted, they had a slew of other problems, but move was the most damning one).

[Zkirsche]

Isn't 20/1 for chapter 16 a bit too generous? that's 4 levels in 2 chapters. Mia's good, but not that good. That'd mean she'll be promoting before Oscar/Kieran do. Even giving a level 13 unit the same amount of exp as a level 8 one (when you said giving them both 4 levels of exp) ia bit generous.

Question. How easy is it to shove/rescue Brom? That's a fairly big factor in movement.

Question: Which does more for the team: shoving allies or killing enemies?

[Ether]

Isn't 20/1 for chapter 16 a bit too generous? that's 4 levels in 2 chapters. Mia's good, but not that good. That'd mean she'll be promoting before Oscar/Kieran do. Even giving a level 13 unit the same amount of exp as a level 8 one (when you said giving them both 4 levels of exp) ia bit generous.

Question: Which does more for the team: shoving allies or killing enemies?

I gave Brom the same amount I gave Mia originally,to avoid anyone yelling "Favoritism!" at me.I said that after that,if Brom wants any more,there is no reason why Mia should not get the same amount extra that he got.

Mia gained 4 levels when she was level 6,in the chapter 8 base,not when she was level 13.I had her at level 13 when Brom joined.And Brom then took the same amount of BEXP as she did originally,once the KW showed up.If you would like to give it to him right away,all it does is make him lose a little less early on,but robs him of an important Spd point.

As for her promotion,Int had her promoted for chapter 15,and he had an easy surplus of BEXP to work with,so having her promoted for chapter 16 isn't a huge stretch.

[Snowy_One]

Losing by 1 move is already significant. Armors in FE6-8 lost 1 move to other foot units and were pretty unusable offensively (granted, they had a slew of other problems, but move was the most damning one).

I don't think it's so much him losing one move as it is him losing the one move that puts him below average on the movement. Only the sages, and I think dragon, have movement as low as his. Unless you are making a team of nothing but sages and generals, he will fall behind. Additionally, the sages have constant range to help them as well as staves. Brom doesn't.

[-Cynthia-]

I think dragons actually might have 5 Mov in PoR, or maybe that's RD, don't quite remember.

Anyway, my point was that so much of our team is likely to be mounted that all the lower Mov units will fall behind significantly, so Brom and Mia will both be behind, Mia just by slightly less. I can see the point though.

I'm still not sure if Brom is worse than Stefan/Ilyana or not, or even if he could drop to Mid tier.

[Zkirsche]

I gave Brom the same amount I gave Mia originally,to avoid anyone yelling "Favoritism!" at me.I said that after that,if Brom wants any more,there is no reason why Mia should not get the same amount extra that he got.

Yes there is, it's called "I'm a lower level so I grow faster".

Mia gained 4 levels when she was level 6,in the chapter 8 base,not when she was level 13.I had her at level 13 when Brom joined.And Brom then took the same amount of BEXP as she did originally,once the KW showed up.If you would like to give it to him right away,all it does is make him lose a little less early on,but robs him of an important Spd point.

Erm.. ok? I never said anything of the sort, I said:

1) That having her gain 4 levels in 2 chapters in generous

2) That giving her the same amount of exp to her as someone who is 5 levels below her, and therefore gains more exp per hit/kill, is generous.

As for her promotion,Int had her promoted for chapter 15,and he had an easy surplus of BEXP to work with,so having her promoted for chapter 16 isn't a huge stretch.

Why would you promote her that fast, over Oscar/Kieran/Marcia/Jill/Makalov/Astrid/Boyd? That's beyond ridiculous.

[dondon151]

Why would you promote her that fast, over Oscar/Kieran/Marcia/Jill/Makalov/Astrid/Boyd? That's beyond ridiculous.

Because you can.

[Ether]

Yes there is, it's called "I'm a lower level so I grow faster".

Erm.. ok? I never said anything of the sort, I said:

1) That having her gain 4 levels in 2 chapters in generous

2) That giving her the same amount of exp to her as someone who is 5 levels below her, and therefore gains more exp per hit/kill, is generous.

Why would you promote her that fast, over Oscar/Kieran/Marcia/Jill/Makalov/Astrid/Boyd? That's beyond ridiculous.

It`s not difficult to have most of the team promoted around chapter 16 if you aren`t being stingy with BEXP,and 17 was just an estimate.If she gets a bosskill/more BEXP/whatever,it can easily be higher.

As for EXP gain,Mia has better offense and MOV than Brom,so she is likely to kill more and thus cancel out his higher gained EXP,as he doesn't gain that much more.

As for Brom having more incentive for BEXP,he is still a good ways away from doubling reliably,he can take hits well enough,and that's all he really will gain from BEXP,is more durability.He also has the worst Movement type on the team.Despite faster leveling,I'd say he's a mediocre BEXP candidate.

[-Cynthia-]

Except that it's more beneficial for Brom to gain BEXP levels since he can have all his levelups via KW there, so someone else can use the KW on maps.

[Snowy_One]

Why? The best aspect of the KW is its speed boost (IMO). Of the people who can use it, the only one who outright needs every last bit he can get is Brom (and Gatrie if he gets winged). If Brom doesn't get it, I would think he needs to be winged in order to double reliably. A speedwing... is a very important resource. 2 AS, 4 AVO, doesn't cost EXP/risk screwage... I would say the only stat-up item even remotely close in value is the robe and drop. Robe because it gives between 4-7 levels of HP (depending on Laguz/beorc), and drop for boosting STR, which is valuable for anyone who isn't a sage with enough STR to hold their tomes.

[Zkirsche]

It`s not difficult to have most of the team promoted around chapter 16 if you aren`t being stingy with BEXP,and 17 was just an estimate.If she gets a bosskill/more BEXP/whatever,it can easily be higher.

You're giving her 4 levels in 2 chapters and anything more than 17 at chapter 13, which was probably generous in the first place, is just otright favouritism.

As for EXP gain,Mia has better offense and MOV than Brom,so she is likely to kill more and thus cancel out his higher gained EXP,as he doesn't gain that much more.

Mia's offence is limited to ORKO'ing just a few more enemies than Brom, as Mia actually 2RKO's more than ORKO's, not unlike Brom.

As for Brom having more incentive for BEXP,he is still a good ways away from doubling reliably,he can take hits well enough,and that's all he really will gain from BEXP,is more durability.He also has the worst Movement type on the team.Despite faster leveling,I'd say he's a mediocre BEXP candidate.

Speedwings will get him going considerably faster.

And i'd say getting an indestructable tank which doubles most things is a worthy goal to get, so I'd actually say he is a very good bexp candidate. He's probably the best bet for the boots too. If we can turn him into what crowned Gatrie is in FE10, I say go for it.

A speedwing... is a very important resource.

Most units can already double reliably anyway (Oscar, Kieran, Jill, Marcia, Ike, Boyd, Astrid, Makalov later on, Lethe, Soren, Stefan, Mia, Zihark etcetera), and I don't see anyone who can actually use it better.

4 AVO,

Oh please, durably, especially later on, units are perfectly comfortable with losing 4 avo. Earth and thunder supports ftw.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Kirsche

[Interceptor]

The thing is that Brom's not losing by that much Mov to the people immediately around him, 1 to the SMs, 0 to the mages.

Losing MV even by 1 in this game is the difference between having something to attack, and just clunking across the map and not contributing anything at all. The only time that Brom's fail mobility doesn't hinder his contributions to game completion are the rare times when you have to split into different directions, and don't have quite enough ubers to handle the job. Like, he's useful in 17-1, since it's a Rout and you have reinforcements that pop behind you. He can stay behind and deal with them, freeing up your 9MV badasses to rush north at full speed.

Garbted, he's terrible compared to flyers and cavs, but he's already below them. The mounted units can't shove people like Mia anyway, so that means we'll have to have foot units to do the shoving anyway. And if we have a foot unit dedicated to shoving (like Mordy), he can Smite Brom and Mia.

And Mia will STILL BE AHEAD OF HIM. The +1 MV difference does not vanish just because we Smite them both. Brom has parity on Turn 1 because of reach with 1-2 range. That's it. On turn 2+, he's toast.

Basically, Mia's Mov advantage is fairly small. Brom's doubling capabilities may havde been overrated though.

The point that I am trying to make is that it doesn't matter what Brom's SPD is. Knight Ward is the answer to the wrong question. If Brom landed with max SPD, he would still be relatively bad for efficient completion. Hardly any of the people who are beating his mobility forever are unable to get excellent offense at some point.

Isn't 20/1 for chapter 16 a bit too generous?

No, it's not.

You're giving her 4 levels in 2 chapters and anything more than 17 at chapter 13, which was probably generous in the first place, is just otright favouritism.

Efficient play requires favoritism. Come up with an equivalently quick clear for Ch13 that doesn't involve over-leveling the shit out of Mia, Zihark, or Marcia. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Mia's offence is limited to ORKO'ing just a few more enemies than Brom, as Mia actually 2RKO's more than ORKO's, not unlike Brom.

Great. So now that you've adjusted the doubling numbers for ORKO potential, adjust them further for "likelihood that unit ever even gets to attack that goddamn unit" and let me know how that one turns out for Brom.

And i'd say getting an indestructable tank which doubles most things is a worthy goal to get, so I'd actually say he is a very good bexp candidate. He's probably the best bet for the boots too. If we can turn him into what crowned Gatrie is in FE10, I say go for it.

Oh please. Brom is so far from the best unit from the boots, that he's obscured by the curvature of the Earth. I could slap Boots + Knight Ring on some 7MV unit, like Nephenee, and get an insta-Paladin that STILL out-maneuvers Brom. What extra benefits does Brom garner me, here? It's not like most units in FE9 are in danger of getting killed.

Gatrie in FE10 has nothing to do with this. There is a distinct lack of 9MV-Cantoing badassery in that game (Titania's durability is shaky when she's by herself), and Celerity can be moved around at will (so you can still give it to Raisin later even if Gatrie uses it earlygame).

Edited May 17, 2010 by Interceptor

[Snowy_One]

Dumb point at this point but...

Doesn't Brom's weight also come against him as well? Seriously, not making a fat joke here.

Rescue if: (Weight - other unit's Weight) >= 2

Shove if: (other unit's Weight - Weight) >= 2

Now, I don't know this perfectly buuuut... It seems Brom can only be shoved or rescued by a unit who has a weight equal to or greater than 19. Meanwhile, a lighter unit, say Mia (who has 6 weight), can be shoved or rescued by anyone with a weight equal to or greater than 8. That's a HUGE gap in number of units who can shove. In fact, I think the only units who can shove Brom, assuming I'm right, are laguz (minus, oddly, the dragons. And the birds of course) and Largo if he gets the statue Frag (I think). Meanwhile, a lot of units are capable of shoving/rescuing Mia. So even if they had the same movement, Mia would still 'technically' beat him in movement since she can be shoved by almost anyone and rescued by almost anyone. While Brom needs Laguz to shove him and laguz/paladins to rescue him.

Not that it really matters. I would think that mounted units would do most rescuing anyways, and smiting... well... The way I see it is that it's either a special occasion tactic or something you do if your unit has nothing else to do and it wouldn't really matter in the long run. So even if Mia (or any light unit) is easily smite/rescuable, it's probably not going to add more than 1-2 squares to their distance traveled per chapter, and that's probably well within the margin of error.

Not to mention that, conversely, Brom can smite/rescue almost anyone while a light unit like Mia can't. So... yea... I think this is probably such a minor thing overall as to not matter.

Random trivial: Mia is the only Swordmaster with a weight in the single digits in the game. She is apparently as heavy as Soren. O.o

[-Cynthia-]

I moved Brom below Stefan for now.

[Snowy_One]

I'm curious. How bad is Lucia? I know she isn't good, but she's at least redeemable or so I thought.

[-Cynthia-]

One of Lucia's main problems is her availability, she's not around for many chapters, and unlike Geoffrey, she's not very good in them. Her durability is a major concern, getting 3HKOd at ths point in the game with relatively high hit rates is pretty atrocious in comparison to everyone else.

Her offense with a forge is pretty good, she doubles lots of stuff and has crit, so she has similar offense to the other SMs (less Str probably, but a decent growth and most of them need crits to ORKO anyhow). We can fix her durability with a support, problem is her options. Bastian sucks, Janaff isn't much better, and Ilyana doesn't want to walk around with empty support slots the whole game. You could also justify the Runesword on Lucia, she has pretty good Mag, and unliek Mist has both the sword rank and enough Str not to fall out of doubling range.

So yes, Lucia is fixable, but not that much. I'm not seeing her out of Bottom certainly.

[Snowy_One]

I do agree she won't be moving out of bottom. My point, though, is that she can be redeemed and probably shouldn't be so low. Yes, she's not the greatest, but we can at least dump a load of Bexp on her (8 levels worth) to make her workable. At 20/20, while her stats aren't shining, they are not, shall we say, Bastion-level bad. At 19 STR, she may be weak, but she can still feasibly take a forge weapon to perform average. With 14 magic, she may not be able to KO well even with the RS/SS (only 15 MAG with the mage band and no attack supports make Mist and Mia better choices and if you have them around at that point, I would think giving them to Elincia a superior option but still...), but she can still at least make use of them.

I don't think Lucia is a good character. I think she's a bad character who can at least promote herself up to a slightly-below-average glass cannon with some favoritism at best. However, I don't think she should be below Nasir and his two chapters of availability either. Especially since Nasir's only real selling point is hurting Ashnard; which might as well not exist in two of the three game modes (where you have the Laguz general to help you and want Ashnard attacking him if possible). Even on hard, you don't really want Ashnard attacking Nasir over Giffca if it is at all possible.

Hmmm... Quick question. We usually seem to assume that only the dragon/general/Ike fight Ashnard, mainly because they are the only ones who can hurt him... but why do we not seem to assume that, say, Oscar may take the fourth side? His AVO boost to Ike would certainly help with the fight, and since Ashnard is walled in, we can move in staff users and Reyson to chant Ike and Giffca and heal. We may lose the enemy phase, but we gain a second round of combat with our two most powerful attackers (so long as the heals can be kept up).