FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Even if you were to assume a AK got the Knight Ward for their entire career, they still don't have what I'd call good speed, and they still need to deal with low earlygame speed. For example, even if Gatrie got the KW for every level, he at 20/10 doesn't match Geoffrey's base speed. And obviously, Gatrie's not likely to get the KW every level, Geoffrey gains levels fast and can use the KW (Geoffrey's speed growth w/o KW is the same as Brom/Gatrie's w/KW, lol), Geoffrey has mobility advantages and access to the Killer and Laguz Bows, which only a few other people are interested in.

[-Cynthia-]

The main thing that puts Gatrie > Geoffrey is earlygame. He has 3.5 chapters of being one of your best units (worse than Titania, you could argue him as high as no.2). In contrast, Geoffrey only has 5 chapters total, one of which he's not very good at all (C25). Geoffrey is great on a very great team, Gatrie is good an a team that's not all that good.

Gatrie would have to be absolutely useless from C13-E for Geoffrey to win, and I don't think he's quite that bad, since there are ways to make Gatrie useful (KW and ferrying).

Originally Brom and Gatrie were both lower, but various arguments moved them up over time.

Edited May 1, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

After looking over various arguments, I have decided on Marcia> Ike. Ike has a lead in raw stats (and a small availability lead), bt flight and 1-2 range are just too useful to overlook in PoR IMO.

Which arguments?

Besides, flight is only good until chapter 19, when she starts getting rained on by ballistae. Sure the full guard could come in handy, but let's not forget Jill. Heck, before then she actually struggles to use her extra mov + flight because of her frail durability. Let's compare, say, at chapter 13, a relatively good chapter for fliers:

Level 14 Ike 'B' Oscar, 'B' Titania: 28.75 HP, 68.85 avo, 11.2 Def, 6.2 res

Level 12 Marcia: 23.85 HP, 36.5 avo, 9.75 def, 8.1 Res

2x Soldier lv 10 iron lance: 27 hp, 14 atk, 7 AS, 100 hit

2x Soldier lv 13 steel lance: 30 hp, 18 atk, 4 AS, 93 hit

1x Archer lv 12 steel bow: 25 hp, 16 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit

1x Myrmidon lv 13 steel sword: 25 hp, 18 atk, 11 AS, 104 hit

1x Fighter lv 13 steel axe: 35 hp, 22 atk, 5 AS, 85 hit

The lv10 soldiers 5-6RKO Marcia, but 6-8RKO Ike. The level 13's 3RKO Marcia with a 23.5% chance to do so whilst 4RKO'ing Ike, but only having a 0.38% chance of doing so. The archer 2HKO's Marcia at 60 displayed, 68.40 true (46.78% chance of death), whilst Ike gets 6RKO'ed at 29 displayed, giving him a <0.001% chance of dying in those 6 rounds. The myrmidon has a 38.07% chance of killing marcia in 4 hits and (assuming his HP is 29) a 0.125% chance of killing Ike in 5 hits. And the fighter has a 27.64% chance of 3RKO'ing Marcia, whilst only having a 1% chance of actually hitting Ike once.

I think that says it all really, Marcia gets 2-6 RKO'ed at relatviely high hit rates, whilst Ike gets 3-8RKO'ed at ridiculously small ones. "a lead in raw stats" it may be, but this lead is a very large one, especially when it comes to durability.

Also, wasn't it agreed on that 1-2 range just wasn't spectacularly more useful than just 1 range?

[-Cynthia-]

Marcia still helps us end the chapter much quicker than Ike does, since shes the only non-Jill person that can fight the ravens. Congratulations, Ike can kill random soldiers slightly better (not really, since he has WTD anyway), lots of characters can engage these enemies very easily and actually be ORKOing them.

Also, Ike only has a significant durability lead if he has Oscar and Titania in support range. I'm not sure why this would encessarily be the case, they have more Mov them him and enough offense/durability to do things just fine on their own. Marcia's durability also improves significantly once Tanith comes into play.

I would be fine with Ike> Marcia if Ike actually had decent offense, but he's little more than a Zihark without crit or Adept who has supports that start sooner. Sure, Marcia's no better offensively and needs healing attention a little more often than Ike does, but she still can gain far more enemy exposure due to flight. Plus, she speeds up chapters like C15 up considerably, not sure Ike can ever say the same besides Ashnard killing I guess.

Marcia can counter all the enemies who use 1-2 range or 2 range, even if she's 2RKOing it's still handy IMO. About 2/3 of enemies do use 1 range though, so I guess it isn't the biggest deal.

Edited May 2, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Snowy_One]

Doesn't Ike have a very good early game though? For chapters 1, 2, and three he's a sword user against mainly axes. Then he gets the regal sword which is pretty much the best weapon and one of two armor-counters you have (Soren being the other) until you get the hammer.

[-Cynthia-]

Doesn't Ike have a very good early game though? For chapters 1, 2, and three he's a sword user against mainly axes. Then he gets the regal sword which is pretty much the best weapon and one of two armor-counters you have (Soren being the other) until you get the hammer.

Ike is pretty good for the first few chapters, not 4 of course since it's full of lances and 5-7 have quite a few lances as well. The Regal Sword isn't that great against armors, only 2x effectiveness with WTD. The Hammer is there once armors actually start showing up in significant numbers, and Iron Axe! Boyd does just as well as Ike anyway, and Titania does better, but of course, she's Titania.

Ike's earlygame is part of why he's as high as he is though, otherwise I would definitely go Tanith>Ike since she outclasses him during almost their entire shared existence. Marcia has several more chapters of usefulness than Tanith though, namely C13 and C15. PoR maps are just really terrain heavy in general, which makes flying very useful.

[Interceptor]

I'm just going to interject into this conversation, that I find the concept of a level 12 Marcia in chapter 13 to be hilarious. Sure, she joins at level 5, basically after Ch9 is already over, but it's in your best interests efficiency-wise to grant her a bunch of BEXP, just like you do for anyone else that has a rough earlygame. A good target for Marcia is to get her promoted by Ch. 15, since it gives her the capability to ORKO Maurim (Jill cannot do it), and +1 MV comes just when you were looking for it. Marcia is not as good as Jill, and two fliers is not twice as awesome as one flier, but Marcia is definitely one of those units that pays off the investment of putting your finger on the scale for her. If she's deployed -- and she's deployed if she's being tiered -- there's really nothing keeping you from turning her into a badass.

It's worth noting, by the way, that you can't do the same thing for Ike, forced promo being what it is. Ike is horribly mediocre in tier 1, and even arguably loses to Mia in Ch 8 and 9, just owing to what they are individually capable of under the circumstances. I generally find myself just using him to curbstomp weakened enemies, or otherwise set up kills for him in a slow grind to ~20 by the end of 17-2. I agree that he is pretty good in Ch1, 2, and 3, but then the "meh" starts and doesn't end until some gauzy point after Manith shows up.

[Narga_Rocks]

I knew you'd have issues with the given levels. I did, too, but I can't be bothered to say it every time fe9 comparisons are done and characters are like 4 or 5 levels lower than they could be if you are using bexp well.

[Zkirsche]

Which arguments?

I'd like to emphasis this as I currently have no/little idea what I'm arguing against the moment.

I find the concept of a level 12 Marcia in chapter 13 to be hilarious

Whatever, a level 15 marcia still has less def/hp/avo than Ike, so I don't see how it matters. In fact, we could probably seal her just before the chapter anyway. She shouldn't lose too much stats.

Marcia still helps us end the chapter much quicker than Ike does, since shes the only non-Jill person that can fight the ravens. Congratulations, Ike can kill random soldiers slightly better (not really, since he has WTD anyway), lots of characters can engage these enemies very easily and actually be ORKOing them.

By the time she'll kill them they'll be at the boat anyway since she only 3HKO's. Oh and he has very similar atk to Marcia, and more durabiltiy to fight multiple foes. If that isn't "slightly better" at the very least, what is?

Also, Ike only has a significant durability lead if he has Oscar and Titania in support range. I'm not sure why this would encessarily be the case, they have more Mov them him and enough offense/durability to do things just fine on their own. Marcia's durability also improves significantly once Tanith comes into play.

Chapter 13 isn't so big he won't have at least 1/both of them in range. Not to mention the enemy density is high so they're likely to be near each other after battling anyway.

Unfortunately for marcia, ballistae are pretty damaging for her and they seem to appear when Tanith joins.

a little more often

a lot more if she faces more than one enemy per enemy phase, and if she isn't then she doesn't:

gain far more enemy exposure due to flight

like you said she does, now does she?

C15 up considerably, not sure Ike can ever say the same

Utility is cumulative. If Ike kills 1 more enemy for 10 chapters, Marcia killing 10 enemies in a later chapter balances it out.

Not to mention you're compeltely ignoring the fact that chapter 13 was merely a sample chapter. If I take chapter 11, Marcia's durability problems would be even worse. In chapter 12, she's probably outclassed by Ike's laguz sword anyway, so It's probably a tie. Chapter 15 + of course I'll give you (though chapter 16 might be debateable). But in chapters 19, 23, 24 and 25 she has ballistae problems and she faces problems from bow users (as seen in chapter 13) all throughout the game.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ike will never double ravens in chapter 12. Or at least, not many. Even at level 20 he gets like 1 guy. One of Zihark/Mia should be given the bexp to double because it makes the chapter go faster (and is far far cheaper than making any other unit able to double with whatever laguz weapons they can use). While you could have two laguzslayers, that requires getting some str for Volke in chapter 11, which isn't guaranteed. If you only have one laguzslayer, though, it should be on a myrm so you can double and ORKO the ravens. Hence, Marcia's flight vs Ike and some random weapon that doesn't do much more than Marcia can, if at all.

[Interceptor]

Whatever, a level 15 marcia still has less def/hp/avo than Ike, so I don't see how it matters. In fact, we could probably seal her just before the chapter anyway. She shouldn't lose too much stats.

It matters because the only lead that Ike has on her -- durability -- is marginal. Marcia owns the skies and goes wherever she wants. Those Steel Bow archers that 2HKO her at high hit rates, well unfortunately for them Marcia can attack from outside their range and ORKO them without taking a hit. Getting 3HKO'ed is worlds better than getting 2HKO'ed, and with Marcia's mobility she can expose herself to the maximum safe Enemy Phase before running back for a heal, and she can stick-and-move with Canto on Player Phase and control when she gets countered. You also casually ignored things like the mages on that ship, enemies that conveniently Marcia both ORKOs with any weapon and gets 5HKO'ed back at worst.

Also, I see no problem with Marcia rocking the Full Guard. Jill can survive two hits from a Ballista, and ordinary archers are a joke. The cost of having Jill actually risk taking damage (since they'd tink her otherwise) I think is probably outweighed by the benefit of having two fliers able to roam around.

The issue with Marcia vs. Ike has always been the value of Ike's earlygame. It's really hard to look at what she's capable of in their shared chapters and come to the conclusion that she's not doing more for completion than he is. She's not a perfect unit by any means, and requires some hand-holding and special treatment, but making her outperform a mediocre 7MV unit locked to swords is about as difficult as falling out of bed. As soon as BEXP enters the picture, Ike is doomed.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

Ike will never double ravens in chapter 12. Or at least, not many. Even at level 20 he gets like 1 guy. One of Zihark/Mia should be given the bexp to double because it makes the chapter go faster (and is far far cheaper than making any other unit able to double with whatever laguz weapons they can use). While you could have two laguzslayers, that requires getting some str for Volke in chapter 11, which isn't guaranteed. If you only have one laguzslayer, though, it should be on a myrm so you can double and ORKO the ravens. Hence, Marcia's flight vs Ike and some random weapon that doesn't do much more than Marcia can, if at all.

Tell me, if we're dumping bexp on Mia to double the ravens, where's the bexp coming from that gets Marcia to a much higher level?

It matters because the only lead that Ike has on her -- durability -- is marginal.

How is getting 3RKO'ed at high hit rates compared to 6RKO'ed at ridiculously low hit rates marginal?

maximum safe Enemy Phase

Assuming that she fought on the player phase, that's 1 unit. Wow, no other units ever fight on the enemy phase at all. [/sarcasm]

You also casually ignored things like the mages on that ship

Is 4 enemies that Ike has wtd against not good enougth? Because I think it is, especially when Cynthia keeps going on about how Ike does badly thanks to wtd.

I see no problem with Marcia rocking the Full Guard. Jill can survive two hits from a Ballista

Tanith too. Anyway, I'd rather not have one of my best combat units delayed by needing a heal thank you very much.

Edited May 3, 2010 by The Syobon

[Interceptor]

Tell me, if we're dumping bexp on Mia to double the ravens, where's the bexp coming from that gets Marcia to a much higher level?

Same place. By the way, we can also BEXP dump Jill, in addition to your random Myrmidon and Marcia, and still have enough BEXP left over for arts and crafts.

How is getting 3RKO'ed at high hit rates compared to 6RKO'ed at ridiculously low hit rates marginal?

It's marginal because Ike's added durability doesn't let him do anything spectacular. He's locked to 1-range, has 6MV, can't Canto, doesn't fly. Even if he was 12HKO'ed, his offense is weaksauce and he can't get anywhere because he's forever getting blocked by enemy units. The worst outcome for Marcia is that she's always getting hit, and has to return to get healed. Not only is that easy to do with her mobility, but we have two healers and neither of them are combatants here.

If Marcia was getting 2HKO'ed (and not by Archers, thank you, who she ORKOs from outside their effective range without even getting hit in return), that would be a horse of a different color. However, she does not. Against most enemies, she has enough durability to do what needs doing.

Assuming that she fought on the player phase, that's 1 unit. Wow, no other units ever fight on the enemy phase at all. [/sarcasm]

Your sarcasm fails. Marcia doesn't always get hit on Player Phase (the enemy misses, she finished it off, or it couldn't counter her), she can get healed by the end of Player Phase, and finally she also doesn't always get 3HKO'ed (like versus mages), which makes your house of cards fall apart.

Is 4 enemies that Ike has wtd against not good enougth? Because I think it is, especially when Cynthia keeps going on about how Ike does badly thanks to wtd.

Mages are a perfect example of why you can't just hand-wave 1-2 range. If Marcia equips even a regular javelin, any of those mages in this level will walk into her and die. End of story. Go directly to Fail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. WTD is nice, but it only matters when it matters. Ike doesn't care about 15 mt from a loldier, this is not an interesting story, everyone rocks those guys.

Tanith too. Anyway, I'd rather not have one of my best combat units delayed by needing a heal thank you very much.

If you have two choices:

1) Invincible Jill who cares about nothing, and one Marcia/Manith who has to skirt around the edges of ballista range because they will get blicked

2) Strong Jill who still ignores Archers and gets 3HKO'ed by ballistas, plus a Marcia/Manith that can actually operate inside ballista range

... and you pick option #1, I will say that you are being inefficient. Jill cannot be in two places at once. I would take the option of having two fliers who can generally be effective inside bow range, instead of Jill hogging the FG and making the entire range of ballista fire a no-fly zone for your peg.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

Tell me, if we're dumping bexp on Mia to double the ravens, where's the bexp coming from that gets Marcia to a much higher level?

We won't necessarily be using Mia. She's only upper mid.

Well, it's interesting that if we dumped enough BEXP on Marcia to get her to 20/01, she'd 1-round every enemy in Chapter 12 and be able to actually go and kill them, too. 20/03 to kill the boss with an Iron forge, which is guaranteed on Fixed Mode if we had her use a +str band. She'll probably gain those two levels just through the course of the chapter.

And finally, we can have our cake and eat it too. There is that much cake available. By chapter 12, we have 3000 cake, assuming we completed every chapter in the turn requirements and saved two vigilantes in C11 and stealthed C10, so we don't need to mess around with annoying requirements like low deployment in C8 or getting everyone to escape in C6. Assuming we don't give Marcia ANY combat experience, she eats 1833 cake, slightly more than a third of available cake in C12 base. Given she'll have gained maybe two or three levels, probably more like 1500 cake. And in exchange, we get an unstoppable warrior goddess that can shave many turns off chapters like C12 and C15 where nobody else can (Jill needs to be like level two thousand to be able to kill Muarim without killing a Laguz accidentally.)

[Narga_Rocks]

We won't necessarily be using Mia. She's only upper mid.

It's Mia or Zihark, though. Chances are you are using at least one.

Well, it's interesting that if we dumped enough BEXP on Marcia to get her to 20/01, she'd 1-round every enemy in Chapter 12 and be able to actually go and kill them, too. 20/03 to kill the boss with an Iron forge, which is guaranteed on Fixed Mode if we had her use a +str band. She'll probably gain those two levels just through the course of the chapter.

Mia/Zihark are much much cheaper to get to doubling with laguzslayer. They can even ORKO the boss before promotion. Unlike Marcia, they actually have a laguz slaying weapon this early.

[Interceptor]

Well, I guess it's technically possible to power-level the shit out of Marcia and get the same low-turning goodness in Ch12 that you'd get from 20 SPD Mia standing on the prow of the ship with a Laguzlayer like Captain Morgan, but I am not sure what the long-term consequences would be.

At this point, Marcia is basically airborne Titania with swords. You're actively pissing away CEXP, killing tier 1 lollerskates enemies in Ch13 with a 20/3 promoted unit. She's basically guaranteed to hit 20/20 ahead of schedule, and the BEXP expenditure might be such that you actually have to cut back on other units.

Maybe it's worthwhile, but I have no idea without actually rolling up my sleeves and giving it a shot.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

Why would I use tier 2 Marcia in Chapter 13? Chapter 13 is a delicious shiny gift from Ashera to all my unpromoted units - the only time pressure is in the form of the Ravens threatening to steal stuff, so I can just go ahead and feed kills to weaker units. Marcia can run around and weaken stuff with an Iron/Slim Sword or whatever, so she gets WEXP and others get kills.

What's more of an issue is giving up the good laguz CEXP in Chapter 12 and Chapter 15 (and Stefan/White Gem/Guard/VK), but I don't really know if those objects would save me as many turns as I do by 2-turning it.

[-Cynthia-]

I wasn't mentioning Ike's WTD against soldiers as a problem for him durability wise, but rather offensively. No one is contesting Ike's durability (past the point where he gets significant supports), but what else can Ike do? He doesn't have enough Str to ORKO consistently due to sword lock, has a forced promotion which slows him down for some chapters, and doesn't have high Mov.

[Colonel M]

You know, maybe this is just me, but I think I'd rather just have someone like Astrid down the Ravens with a forged Bow. CEXP + Paragon and all. I guess I really hate Myrmidions in this game to not really care about using them seriously even if they double Ravens.

EDIT: Well, I guess she can't OHKO them. Still, it's not like she requires that much damage needed to set it up (18/28 damage).

Edited May 4, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, maybe this is just me, but I think I'd rather just have someone like Astrid down the Ravens with a forged Bow. CEXP + Paragon and all. I guess I really hate Myrmidions in this game to not really care about using them seriously even if they double Ravens.

EDIT: Well, I guess she can't OHKO them. Still, it's not like she requires that much damage needed to set it up (18/28 damage).

Astrid isn't in chapter 12. And astrid moves awful slowly in chapter 15. And her base str is rather bad in chapter 13 and ravens are sometimes near other enemies. If the game didn't conspire against Astrid as far as shooting ravens out of the sky is concerned you might have a point about myrms. Mia/Zihark can actually do something good that chances are nobody else is doing. Many units are in fact 3HKOing the things. 30/31 hp and 11 def. It takes 27 mt just to 2HKO the things. 26 for 30/11. Only the sword versions exist in chapter 12, so you are stuck with normal weapons and iron forges. 13 mt iron axe forge. Kieran needs to be level 16 just to manage a 2 round on some of them with a forge. Level 18 to get all but the boss. And you can only forge, what, 5 times so far? Jill has 11 str base and is thus 3HKOing no matter what since you can't feed her bexp. Level 16 Mia has 11 str for 29 mt. Even the boss is 2HKOd. Granted, only 18 attack speed (19 spd and sword weighs 12). But a few levels higher and she's one rounding. One of the best units in the game needs a forge just to 2 hit at around the same level Mia needs to ORKO. Level 18 Mia basically ORKOs everything. Particularly on fixed mode due to starting growth points in str. I think level 17 Mia is good enough on fixed mode.

[Colonel M]

I'm talking in regards to Chapter 13 with Astrid.

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid still has to wait for the Ravens to come to the ship, Marcia doesn't.

[Colonel M]

Astrid still has to wait for the Ravens to come to the ship, Marcia doesn't.

...Yeah... I know that. I'm talking about in comparison to Mia / Zihark, who also has to wait for the Ravens to come to the ship. I apologize for not being specific. My bad.

I'm on Marcia's side anyway with Marcia > Ike.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

...Yeah... I know that. I'm talking about in comparison to Mia / Zihark, who also has to wait for the Ravens to come to the ship. I apologize for not being specific. My bad.

I'm on Marcia's side anyway with Marcia > Ike.

Bow forge has 22 mt, and she has 6 str, so yes, on a 10 def Raven she does 18 damage. But she's basically the only unit that can do something like that (and Rolf). Most of your others aren't. It can be nice to have one rounding. Besides, you are creating Mia/Zihark for chapter 12 anyway. You'll have them around for chapter 13. It's up to you how you use them, of course, but a level 17 Mia has some pretty cool stats at this point so I suppose you could find something else for her to do that doesn't involve ravens.

[Snowy_One]

I am curious as to how you would get Mia/Zihark up to those levels in time for that chapter. I can see it happening, but it would basically require you dumping most/all of your BEXP on Zihark and most of it on Mia and letting her get an unusual amount of kills in her chapters.