FE9 Tier list v3

[Interceptor]

The MV issue is not something to be understated. Brom is literally not going to see combat during efficient play except in cases where enemies are in range of his starting position, in situations that there are too many fronts to send the 9MV units (Ch26 comes to mind immediately as a good example), or as a kind of clean-up crew that follows the van and bayonets the wounded. I suppose that you could carry him around with someone, but who would do such a thing that could not already take care of themselves?

Boyd faces a similar problem, but with +1MV it's not an identical one.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

The MV situation isn't good I admit, but I'm not sure if it's bad enough to make up for Brom's other leads over the SMs.

And obviously in the context of Gatrie it doesn't matter. Part of the reason I'm hesitant to say Gatrie> Geoffrey is 9 vs. 6 Mov. It makes Geoffrey clearly better when both exist (except C25), so it's up to Gatrie's availability lead.

[Florete]

If Geoffrey is so easily > Gatrie, then why is Brom a tier up on Geoffrey? As I showed a while back, Gatrie and Brom are not all that different. I'll try to find the post again if you need it.

[-Cynthia-]

A smash's comparison shows, it's 15 vs. 12 AS, which is pretty significant.

For example in Ch18, Gatrie only doubles 5 enemies. Brom doubles 19. They'll have similar Mt (Gatrie has more Str, but Brom gets bonuses from supports) and have ridiculously high durability, so Brom wins overall.

[Interceptor]

The MV situation isn't good I admit, but I'm not sure if it's bad enough to make up for Brom's other leads over the SMs.

The SMs are a different issue. Their have AS leads that seldom matter, low STR in the case of Mia/Zihark, are locked to a low mt weapon type, are a liability at 2-range, and have survival/availability problems in the case of Stefan.

But that doesn't really have much to do with Brom/Gatrie other than where the two of them end up in the case that they end up being close together.

[Florete]

A smash's comparison shows, it's 15 vs. 12 AS, which is pretty significant.

No, it was 14.7 vs 12.45. That's a 2.25 gap, which is closer to 2 than 3. Brom having 14 doesn't change anything, but Gatrie having 13 gets him 9 more enemies. Then again, I can't say for sure how accurate his levels were (20/1 at 18) so even that might not be accurate.

Then Gatrie has his early game and possibly giving Def to Ilyana.

[-Cynthia-]

No, it was 14.7 vs 12.45. That's a 2.25 gap, which is closer to 2 than 3. Brom having 14 doesn't change anything, but Gatrie having 13 gets him 9 more enemies. Then again, I can't say for sure how accurate his levels were (20/1 at 18) so even that might not be accurate.

Then Gatrie has his early game and possibly giving Def to Ilyana.

Brom and Gatrie gains levels fairly slowly due to Mov problems, although you can make a good case for giving them BEXP to maximize KW usage.

I guess you can split hairs about AS if you want. If we go with 15 AS for Brom in Ch19 and 13 AS for Gatrie, Brom doubles 12 enemies, Gatrie doubles 2 (and they're lol priests). We could go on with chaper comparisons, but Brom generally doubles 10-15 more enemies than Gatrie does.

Gatrie gives Def to Ilyana, Brom gives Atk and Def to Zihark, Neph, and/or Boyd, so there's a clear winenr there IMO. Gatrie's only real win is his earlygame, the question is how much weight we put on it.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'd like to see you show that Gatrie's performance in 3-7 is that great. Gatrie's slow, he's taking away experience from characters that aren't going to disappear for 6 chapters, and Titania exists and is absurdly stronger than him.

5 Spd isn't so slow when you realize that a good bit of the enemies in chapters 3 and 4 have 0-1 AS because they're weighed down so much by their weapons. In chapter 3, Ike's not going to be strong enough to get all the kills, Shinon disappears for even longer, and Titanis shouldn't even be attacking anything until chapter 6 at the earliest since she's going to get like 1 EXP for a kill (slight exaggeration, but still...) So, while Ike should shoot for 3/4 of the kills, there's no reason why Gatrie can't still pick up a few here. In chapter 4, the only characters who can really take any enemy phase are Shinon, Titania, and Gatrie. Ike maybe, if he's at full HP. Plus, you've got to keep Soren and Rhys protected from enemy attacks, since they'll die in one hit. I'd like to see you do that without giving Gatrie some kills. Again, Titania doesn't need the kills and you don't want to give them to Shinon either. Sure, Soren and Ike need them more, but Gatrie is still getting some of them as well.

Why would we want Gatrie to be killing here? This isn't a rout map, and we want to be feeding Ike as much EXP as possible. Gatrie is getting like 15 exp per kill. If we cared so little for EXP, we could just have Titania solo the map.

Yes, we want to be giving Ike more exp, but we also want to beat the level relatively quickly as well for BEXP purposes, and Gatrie will never need to use a turn to heal like Ike might if he's exposed. WTA doesn't make Ike invincible here.

He is more useful here, but that's because of his durability rather than anything else. He's no longer doubling anything aside from lolSteel Lance Soldiers, and Titania is still more useful due to 2-range and better everything.

I'd like to see another character who is taking <3 damage from everything. And when most characters are 4-5HKOing here, Gatrie's 2RKO's are still solid kills here. And when did this become anyone v. Titania? We already know she's the bast, no holds barred. This is about Gatrie v. Geoffrey. Yes, the efficient player is trying to get Soren and Ike get more kills, but Gatrie plays a huge role in defending the characters here.

If by 'conserving his levels' you mean 'give him half the kills in Chapter 3 and a third in Chapter 4'. Chapter 5 is a cinch to chokepoint anyway - 3 characters are necessary.

No, that extreme is not necessary. Probably a fourth in 3 and a fifth in 4. As for Chapter 5, we have two options. We can sit around, defend, and then win after 6 turns, or we can actually go out and take out some of the enemies while we're at it. Since getting some EXP is better than none, and there's so little risk to Gatrie dying, there's no reason why he can't get some experience here as well. Of course, that raises the question of slowplaying him to get the KW levels later, but at the same time, he can wall with Titania while other characters get more EXP. He's helping without so much combat utility, but that still counts. No argument on 7. He probably takes out a thief and an armor, and that's it.

Chokepoints aren't very common, and with a good team, you don't care about them since later in the game, you never ever need to defend. And I assume he needs the forge to OHKO, because I can't imagine Gatrie needing a forge to 2HKO, or for that matter, doubling reliably.

The forge allows him to OHKO the weaker myrms, and 15 defense makes sure that he's taking chip damage from all of them. Plus it's not like you have a ton of characters who can go around and ORKO all this stuff (Lethe, Titania, and that's probably it), so I think that the fact that Gatrie safely 2RKO's a lot of stuff is still pretty good here.

Chapter 16 is a loooooooooong, fairly empty corridor, then some rooms. Gatrie will quickly fall behind faster team members. If he got 3 levels with the KW so far, he can get 7 AS... which doubles nothing. As for Gatrie's durability 'lead', he has 35HP/17DEF - enemies have around 17-23ATK, so he's largely in the clear, although the mages are a bit troubling - if he gets hit twice, he's left on like 1 or 2 HP, which is a dangerous place to be, and some of the mages actually double him, meaning he could get killed if he does ever actually catch up, and Thunder users have crit on him, so he could be critblicked and force a reset. So he's still one of your worst characters.

He doesn't need to stay up with the other units. He stays and kills the soldier reinforcements. And doesn't even get damaged while dong so (or taking 1-2 damage at best. Plus, he can always grab a key and take the right room as well. Remember, I'm not saying that Gatrie is doing better than Jill or Titania. I'm only saying that he does well enough to be better than Geoffrey here.

Yes, chapter 17 is another large chapter which involves lots of pushing forwards as quickly as possible, so it is more of the same. Same for Chapter 18. 17-3 is mage-heavy, too, and there's a Sage in 17-3 that ORKOes a level 15 Gatrie, or a level 16 Gatrie that missed a point of HP. One of the Fighters has a Hammer that can easily knock off 16-20 HP too. 17-4 is more friendly to him, except for the Meteor Mage, and the Mage that doubles him, he can just sit on the right hand side and fight the reinforcements.

17-1: he picks off the reinforcements so the rest of the party can move ahead. It IS a rout map. 17-2: While you have a couple of units charging to the arrive point, he can always defend their rear. There are very few mages here. 17-3 is a defend map. He can always go to the top left is where there are no mages, and the swamp is nullifying the move of every character but Marcia and Jill here too, so he's not doing much worse with respect to movement, either. In 17-4, it's not hard to have Marcia or Jill pick of the meteor mage by turn 2 at the latest, and Gatrie is more or less safe from all the reinforcements and everything else on the right side as well.

Oh, and oh wow, he's doing 35 Mt with a forge. OHKOes only a couple of super-weak unpromoted enemies, and his AS is still shaky, so the tougher promoted enemies are beyond him. What a great use of a +4MT Steel forge that he will largely never use.

A ORKO hardly relevant when he can just absorb enemy counters and finish them on enemy phase. Unlike a lot of characters who are going to suffer a lot of damage on enemy phase, he just sits and laughs at everything that's not a mage. Plus, he's got a lot of 1-2 range options as well, and he's a good candidate for a forged javelin as well.

20/10 seems a bit high for this point of the game, when you consider that Gatrie may have joined a little bit underlevelled. And he won't have gotten that much KW use. 16AS seems more appropiate.

16 levels, or about 3/4 of his total level ups, is 16.8 Speed. I think 17 is the better number to use, since we can still assume a band when he's not got the KW.

Elincia is forced for one chapter, can easily be fielded in the other two due to being your most mobile healer, and B Elincia still gives him +1MT, which isn't 'meaningless'. And OH NOES, Calill can't heal! (I guess that since Titania isn't healing either, we should probably bin her.) Even without healing, she's waaaaay more likely to be fielded than lolShinon or Failyana, just so that Gatrie can have even more overkilled durability.

I forgot to mention that Gatrie has two other options as well. Marcia and Astrid, both of whom are very good characters. Yes, Gatrie has movement issues and won't always be in support range, but those are also options. It's not like Calill and Elincia are that great to begin with in this game. So still, Gatrie is easily winning supports. Plus, he can support better characters if he does this, which means that he should get credit for that as well.

Oh, is Paragon too little? You forget how absurdly good Paragon is - on HM, you have a pool of 1250 BEXP from C24 and C25. Since many of your units are around level 10 promoted, that BEXP is only going to give 6 level-ups - unless we give a chunk of it to Geoffrey. Since Geoffrey has Paragon, KW access, and some ridiculously good growths, he's by far the best user of it. If Geoffrey takes 380 BEXP and uses the KW for those 3 levels:

45HP 19.5STR 10MAG 18SKL 22SPD 12.6LUK 22DEF 10RES

(I'm aware that I rounded up an average of 21.55 to get 22SPD - the average is misleading, since Geoffrey has a 61% chance of hitting 22SPD this way)

He doubles every enemy except for a Cat and a handful of Swordmasters. With a forged Silver, or alternatively, the Laguz Bow or the Killer Bow, which almost nobody else is likely to use anyway, he 1 rounds everything except the Generals. Whereas your Gatrie (I'd actually put him as having 16AS instead of 17AS, since he may not always get the KW) is struggling to double everything except other Generals. Calill helps, once their support gets going, since he's borderline on many things.

Again, please point me to the place where you specify that Calill or Elincia is more likely to be fielded than either Marcia or Astrid, because I'm not seeing it. In addition, since both Astrid and Marcia have shaky defense, they both could really benefit from the defense bonus that Gatrie gives. And I already showed that bands make it fair to assume 17 AS.

As for durability, even the strongest enemy in C26, a Wyvern Lord, would only deal 12 damage to Geoffrey - a 4HKO, at about 56 display hit. Even the enemies with anti-Paladin weapons don't deal better - only 6 enemies on the map can deal more than single-digit damage to him, and one of them is the boss. You might say that Gatrie's durability is even better, but when he's lumbering along behind all the other units, who cares? Geoffrey is only at risk of death if he charges into a massive group of enemies, which he's not going to do, and even if we did, we could let him carry the KW so he'll survive. Gatrie's luck is also low enough that he's at risk of getting blicked by a Bolting Sage, or the Thoron Sage. While this can be fixed with a Goddess Icon, it's 4000 gold that we need to save from earlygame, when we want it more. And even with both Icons, Gatrie still faces significant crit from Heddwyn. Endgame, Gatrie is a bit better, since he can wall off a chokepoint around the fountain, but when Geoffrey can do it, or alternatively, attack and canto behind a defender, it's still not great.

It's a choice between 'mediocre for a while' and 'good for a little bit' here. I go with good.

Like I said, Geoffrey isn't doing anything in 25. In 27, all the doors significantly hurt the advantage of Geoffrey's movement, and you've got lots of time to get all the treasure. Plus, Gatrie can always guard a door as well. 28 is another place where defense means more than move, especially since Gatrie is immune to all cats and birds, plus is taking at most 3 damage from the 30 mt tigers. He might be taking none at all. Yes, Geoffrey has a Laguz bow, but Gatrie can just as easily take a laguz lance as well. Especially when he is going to do 54 effective (assuming B Marcia here and max Str). That kills a lot of the birds in one hit and comes very close to 2HKOing dragons (along with everything else). And he gets max Str by 20/16, so I think it's a fair enough assumption (20/14 if playing fixed mode due to starting growth points). In endgame, Geoffrey can just sit and guard the point just north of the fountain. Even asleep, he's not going to be vulnerable when he has 32 Def (B Marcia / A Astrid) or 34 with KW. And Ashnard 3HKO's him as well due to WTD, meaning that given a bit of luck, he can absorb a round before dying (or 2 if at max Spd during the first form), something that Geoffrey can't do, meaning that he can serve as one of the pins on Ashnard. So, I'm sticking by Gatrie > Geoffrey. Edited February 20, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Fayt Zelpher]

Would someone do me a favor and explain Kieran > Oscar for me? I'm not seeing how axes + fire affinity makes up for Oscar's early game utility and almost guaranteed A Ike for tons of Avoid, not to mention that Oscar can immediately take a maxed steel axe the second he promotes.

And yeah, I'm about to start working on finishing that above post.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Shadow Mir]

Would someone do me a favor and explain Kieran > Oscar for me? I'm not seeing how axes + fire affinity makes up for Oscar's early game utility and almost guaranteed A Ike for tons of Avoid, not to mention that Oscar can immediately take a maxed steel axe the second he promotes.

And yeah, I'm about to start working on finishing that above post.

Again, assuming Oscar gets a max Mt steel axe is favoritism. You don't see me assuming Ike gets a max Mt steel sword, now do you? Because I know that if I try to do so, I'd only get shot down. As for the A Ike, I'm sure that Oscar would perfer A Kieran.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Richter Renard

[-Cynthia-]

Kieran has wind, not fire.

It was argued earlier that Kieran's consistent ORKOing without forges> Oscar's earlygame, though I'm sure it could be argued otherwise.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Wait, why aren't we assuming forges can be used? There is also application of BEXP which would serve to undermine Kieran's offense.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Kieran has wind, not fire.

It was argued earlier that Kieran's consistent ORKOing without forges> Oscar's earlygame, though I'm sure it could be argued otherwise.

Oops. My apologies about the affinity. And I do want to look into Oscar v. Kieran later as well.

And RR: I'm saying that he's a good candidate for a maxed steel there. Steel Axes are not very expensive, and you can max its Mt and hit for about 2500 total. He doesn't need the critical or weight. The only thing that you need to worry about is losing one other forge, but it's not like that weapon can't be passed around either.

And Oscar, I thought, was generally given A Ike B Kieran since Oscar can use Ike's avoid more than Kieran's hit.

[Colonel M]

Wait, why aren't we assuming forges can be used? There is also application of BEXP which would serve to undermine Kieran's offense.

You can use forges. What the person is trying to say is that Keiran not needing forges is an advantage against Oscar (which his offense is almost dependent on). Well... I do see that Keiran isn't THAT FAR ahead of him in offense (2 damage difference at 20/1 if the Str point rounds up. If not it does turn to 4). Kieran also loses to Oscar in Avoid (Ike support) then there's availability where having him is pretty useful.

It'd need some evidence that Oscar is desperate for a forge before I'd put Kieran over Oscar, and even then Oscar has wins in other places.

[Zkirsche]

@kirsche In your Boyd/Ike comparison, there was no mention of the Ch.2 Speedwing. If it's not going to Boyd, who else is it going to go to? Without Ike's doubling lead, Boyd wins.

Brom, Gatrie, Makalov, Soren, Ilyana, Rhys and Jill aren't exactly perfect on the speed front. And Ike doesn't need a speedwing anyway, which you can't say is a bad thing. So Ike consumes little resources, is not affected by RNG as much, is superier in durability, is still comparable early-mid game, is better than Boyd for the last 2 chapters and the first 7, which are arguably the hardest too, and has a better affinity and multiple support partners. All this is compared to 1-2 range and superier mid-late game thanks only to superier offence.

I'm not saying Ike is better than Boyd, but the difference between Boyd and Ike is literally his offensive leads over Ike. And heck, this is only major later on and even then, one or two chapters they are relatively the same on offence. Chapter 23 as one example:

Level 20/7 Ike with a silver forge, 'A' Oscar, 'B' Soren: 41.75 HP, 39.5 Atk, 22.75 AS, 105.25 Avo, 18 Def, 12 Res

Level 20/7 Boyd with a steel forge, 'A' Titania, 'B' Brom: 50.5 HP, 42.4 Atk, 17.8 AS, 48 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res

Even now, Boyd is struggling to double 10 enemies, assuming his speed rounds up. Again, if unlucky, this figure increases to 16 enemies. Ike, even if his speed rounded down, misses out on doubling only Petrine. Who, if I may point out to you, doubles Boyd and thus 2RKO's him. To make things even closer between the two in terms of offence, Ike ORKO's everyone except for Petrine. So in actuality, Boyd's offence lead is now non-existant and it might be reversed due to Ike's superier durability and superier doubling prowess.

Heck, I don't see any enemies' stats spiking in terms of def so even after Boyd gets Silver, Ike still wins thanks to doubling and superier durability. In fact, with a sivler blade in chapter 22, the onyl enemies he can't ORKO are the tigers and the boss himself. Both of which Ike doubles and Boyd doesn't, so Ike still wins here. To make matters worse for Boyd, a level 20/5 Ike with a silver sword is still ORKO'ing all but the knights/generals and Ena. So, it's even pretty comparable at that point.

So, assuming Boyd's superier for chapters 14-21 and chapters 8 and 9, that's only 13 maps he's better on. Meanwhile, Ike has chapters 1-2, 5-7, 12 and 22-Endgame where he is clearly superier - 14 full blown chapters. And by that I mean chapter 17 is more around 3 chapters altogether and Boyd isn't doing much in chapter 15. Even if Boyd is better in chapters 11 and 13, why does that put him an entire tier above Ike even though they're both so comparable to each other?

Also for Reyson/Ike, I'm not sure Ike's player phases were necessarily that fantastic. Ike can't really do anything in the Ch. 4 lance storm for example.

All it takes is for Ike to have 20 less than great player phases to be equal when it comes to player phases and even then he still has the advantage of the enemy phase. Is 200+ enemy phases + 200+ player phases <<< 200+ player phases? Because, when doing the math, it just doesn't look that way to me.

[soundecho]

1~2 range. ORKOing at 1~2 range is extremely useful.

Boyd's levels are also extremely deflated. Boyd is promoting around ch 16/early chapter 17. So it's a level a chapter which is really slow considering BEXP. Also stuff like no speed band?

Boyd in no way needs a forge, a steel axe is fine for him which means the forge can go to someone else, which means someone else is doing extremely better.

Also, Boyd wants A Brom B Mist.

Edited February 21, 2010 by soundecho

[Zkirsche]

1~2 range. ORKOing at 1~2 range is extremely useful.

How is it? Ike's durable enougth not to care about attacking at one range and 1-2 range users likely to attack units like Muarim and Mordecai, who have high move yet lack 2 range. Heck, Oscar, Marcia and Tanith aren't strong enougth to ORKO with 1-2 range weapons so they're not even likely to end the turn with a 1-2 ranged weapon. So again, Boyd isn't going to be killing these guys on teh enemy phase as they won't even be targetting him.

Not to mention the number of 1-2 range users are extremely underwhelming. 16/50 units in chapter 23 have 2 ranged options. Excluding Petrine as she stands still.

Boyd's levels are also extremely deflated. Boyd is promoting around ch 16/early chapter 17. So it's a level a chapter which is really slow considering BEXP. Also stuff like no speed band?

I didn't give Ike any bands either, no strength bands or anything.

And even if we were to give Boyd another level, his speed is only more resistant to the RNG goddess. There will still be enemies he will not double whilst Ike will double pretty much everything on the map.

You see, my argument is mostly there to show that these two lategame are both ORKO'ing units, and whilst one has superier durability the other has 2 range.

Boyd in no way needs a forge, a steel axe is fine for him which means the forge can go to someone else, which means someone else is doing extremely better.

This is true, but as I showed, Ike in no way needs a forge either.

Also, Boyd wants A Brom B Mist.

This isn't about what Boyd "wants", this is about what's best for the team. Mist has many more options (Titania/Mordecai/Jill), and Zihark wants to get his earth bonuses reflected on him as quickly as possible, even if it means he gets A Brom, B Ilyana which is in effect by chapter 18, whilst A Muarim, 'B' Brom is only in effect from chapter 22 onwards, when his speed has already sealed his avo anyway. And the difference between these two optioins is 7 avo for the latter, whilst the former gets Zihark an extra point of def. Being faster means the latter is less useful for him in the long run so Zihark prefers 'A' Brom, 'B' Ilyana.

However, even if we were to give Boyd 'A' Brom, 'B' Titania, this would only increase his Atk by 1 point, and if you hadn't noticed, Atk wasn't exactly his weak point to begin with, it was AS.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So, assuming Boyd's superier for chapters 14-21 and chapters 8 and 9, that's only 13 maps he's better on. Meanwhile, Ike has chapters 1-2, 5-7, 12 and 22-Endgame where he is clearly superier - 14 full blown chapters. And by that I mean chapter 17 is more around 3 chapters altogether and Boyd isn't doing much in chapter 15. Even if Boyd is better in chapters 11 and 13, why does that put him an entire tier above Ike even though they're both so comparable to each other?

Don't quite follow you here. Boyd is superior for much more than that.

I didn't give Ike any bands either, no strength bands or anything.

That's not proper justification. Both definitely should get a band, and it just so happens that Boyd benefits more from his than Ike.

And even if we were to give Boyd another level, his speed is only more resistant to the RNG goddess. There will still be enemies he will not double whilst Ike will double pretty much everything on the map.

One level? More like five. At that point, with a speed band, he has 21.5 speed, which could possibly match Ike, and even if it doesn't, he only misses 2 more cats than Ike.

You see, my argument is mostly there to show that these two lategame are both ORKO'ing units, and whilst one has superier durability the other has 2 range.

So then, how much does the extra durability matter? The same argument was used to wave away Oscar's durability lead over Kieran. Meanwhile, not having 2 range is certainly a liability on enemy phase, as though most of your units can't consistently ORKO with javelins/hand axes, the AI targets based on lack of a counter, then durability, unless the target can be killed that phase, which means that Ike will be constantly attacked, where instead, if he did not exist, someone like Marcia would be countering and ORKO'ing some with a javelin, and even though she might leave some come player phase, there will be less to clean up, which means your characters can move forward faster. Also, there is the matter that you can position Boyd to be the first to meet the enemy, which means he can take care of most everything which then allows you to move forward and deal with minimal threats/obstacles remaining.

This isn't about what Boyd "wants", this is about what's best for the team. Mist has many more options (Titania/Mordecai/Jill), and Zihark wants to get his earth bonuses reflected on him as quickly as possible, even if it means he gets A Brom, B Ilyana which is in effect by chapter 18, whilst A Muarim, 'B' Brom is only in effect from chapter 22 onwards, when his speed has already sealed his avo anyway. And the difference between these two optioins is 7 avo for the latter, whilst the former gets Zihark an extra point of def. Being faster means the latter is less useful for him in the long run so Zihark prefers 'A' Brom, 'B' Ilyana.

However, even if we were to give Boyd 'A' Brom, 'B' Titania, this would only increase his Atk by 1 point, and if you hadn't noticed, Atk wasn't exactly his weak point to begin with, it was AS.

So then you gave Ike 'A' Oscar why?

Also, Marcia > Ike.

Edited February 21, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[-Cynthia-]

Brom, Gatrie, Makalov, Soren, Ilyana, Rhys and Jill aren't exactly perfect on the speed front

Here's the thing: none of these characters nearly as much use out of it than Boyd does, because Boyd has more chapters to use it earlygame than Brom, Gatrie, Ilyana, Makalov ,or Jill. Makalov/Brom/Gatrie can use KW+BEXP anyway and get more benefits.

We don't really care about Rhys's Spd anyway since he can't even attack yet. I guess we could throw one on Soren, but he doubles fine after a few levelups anyway and it's not like Soren helps on the Enemy Phase at this point.

Giving the Speedwing to Boyd helps us in the earlygame chapters before we get BEXP and throughout the entire game really, since Boyd gets durable enough to have enemy phase action.

And I have some issues with your comparison. Boyd should end up having a level lead over Ike, since Boyd will promote before Ch18. Also you gave Ike a silver forge at the first possible opportunity. Unlike the Ch.2 Speedwing, everyone who can't ORKO with normal silvers (which is a number of characters) would like that, so automatically entitling Ike to it doesn't make much sense.

[Zkirsche]

All you have looked at is Boyd, when the real focus was Ike. Ike is a ORKO'ing machine later on, as is Boyd. This is not Ike > Boyd this is Boyd >>/ Ike, he is just > Ike, as narga would put it. I fail to see such a massive difference later on if both are ORKO'ing monsters. I may as well have excluded Boyd completely

. Also you gave Ike a silver forge at the first possible opportunity. Unlike the Ch.2 Speedwing, everyone who can't ORKO with normal silvers (which is a number of characters) would like that, so automatically entitling Ike to it doesn't make much sense.

IIRC, silver swords are forgeable before axes or lances. And, I quote:

In fact, with a sivler blade in chapter 22, the onyl enemies he can't ORKO are the tigers and the boss himself. Both of which Ike doubles and Boyd doesn't, so Ike still wins here. To make matters worse for Boyd, a level 20/5 Ike with a silver sword is still ORKO'ing all but the knights/generals and Ena. So, it's even pretty comparable at that point.

This is true, but as I showed, Ike in no way needs a forge either.

One level? More like five.

If Boyd promotes at around level 17.3, he ends up being level 20/3 by chapter 18. Please tell me how in 5 chapters he gets 9 levels when there are multiple units who can fly and have much more mov than Boyd and are very good units themselves. Level 12 for chapter 23 is completely absurd. The level lead is 1-2 levels at most as Ike will catch up to Boyd at some point.

So then you gave Ike 'A' Oscar why?

Because Earth x Earth is more overpowered than Water x Water and Oscar's best other option (Kieran) is slower and has a worse affinity (Earth >>>> Wind).

That's not proper justification. Both definitely should get a band, and it just so happens that Boyd benefits more from his than Ike.

Proof please. A strength band would help make those ORKO's on a few enemies that much easier without a silver forge.

Meanwhile, not having 2 range is certainly a liability on enemy phase, as though most of your units can't consistently ORKO with javelins/hand axes, the AI targets based on lack of a counter, then durability, unless the target can be killed that phase, which means that Ike will be constantly attacked, where instead, if he did not exist, someone like Marcia would be countering and ORKO'ing some with a javelin, and even though she might leave some come player phase, there will be less to clean up, which means your characters can move forward faster. Also, there is the matter that you can position Boyd to be the first to meet the enemy, which means he can take care of most everything which then allows you to move forward and deal with minimal threats/obstacles remaining

1) Ranged enemies are not very common.

2) Ranged enemies can be targetted on the player phase for maximum effectiveness. Oh, and I doubt Marcia will be ORKO'ing with a javelin. Like I said before yet you conveniently ignored:

How is it? Ike's durable enougth not to care about attacking at one range and 1-2 range users are likely to attack units like Muarim and Mordecai, who have high move yet lack 2 range. Heck, Oscar, Marcia and Tanith aren't strong enougth to ORKO with 1-2 range weapons so they're not even likely to end the turn with a 1-2 ranged weapon. So again, Boyd isn't going to be killing these guys on the enemy phase as they won't even be targetting him.

Not to mention the number of 1-2 range users are extremely underwhelming. 16/50 units in chapter 23 have 2 ranged options. Excluding Petrine as she stands still.

Here's the thing: none of these characters nearly as much use out of it than Boyd does, because Boyd has more chapters to use it earlygame than Brom, Gatrie, Ilyana, Makalov ,or Jill. Makalov/Brom/Gatrie can use KW+BEXP anyway and get more benefits.

We don't really care about Rhys's Spd anyway since he can't even attack yet. I guess we could throw one on Soren, but he doubles fine after a few levelups anyway and it's not like Soren helps on the Enemy Phase at this point.

Giving the Speedwing to Boyd helps us in the earlygame chapters before we get BEXP and throughout the entire game really, since Boyd gets durable enough to have enemy phase action

Even Oscar could use the speedwing earlygame as I don't see him doubling much post chapter 4. Gatrie in the earlygame could sure use being able to double more, as having two indestructible tanks who can kill everything would be pretty nice (aka Titania and Gatrie) and would help him double faster upon returning as the KW doesn't remove all of his doubling woes because as RFoF stated, he's only 1-2 points off doubling quite a few more enemies lategame.

In any case, even if Boyd > Ike overall, Ike is still > Boyd pre chapter 8 and post chapter 27 and is still comparable to him throughout the game at the very least. I cannot possibly see why he shouldn't be in the same tier.

And also, any other word on Ike > Reyson would be nice. And even some more opinions on this topic too.

Edited February 21, 2010 by The Syobon

[-Cynthia-]

Let's say Ike> Boyd for 1-7 and 27-E (I could contest that Boyd is better against the general swarm in 7 and I don't think Ike uses Ragnell until 28 but w/e). This means Boyd wins for 22 chapters (17 is ~3) to Ike's 10 chapters, which I would say constitutes a tier difference.

I'm still not sure on Ike> Reyson myself. Reyson does show up significantly later in the game, but I would say Reyson's Vigoring > another good combat unit while Reyson exists.

Edited February 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm still not sure on Ike> Reyson myself. Reyson does show up significantly later in the game, but I would say Reyson's Vigoring > another good combat unit while Reyson exists.

Well, unless you're eating stones, Reyson is going to get one unit of vigoring for the first 4 turns, which isn't that great in comparison. Not only that, but this is now the part of the game where Ike starts to dominate, since he will immediately get Aether here (since he has BY FAR the best mastery skill in PoR) and be more or less invincible because he heals 1/4 of the time for quite a bit. And 5 move untransformed isn't that great either, meaning that all your horses and flyers (considered the best units in game) have to move backwards to be in range of Reyson. That's the general Ike > Reyson position, I think.

[frat_tastic]

I don't really wanna look through all 57 pages of this to find the answer, the only thing I noticed was that Mia was suddenly in Upper Mid instead of Lower Mid, where she was last time I looked at a FE9 list (forever ago). Anyone wanna briefly recap for me why?

[Colonel M]

I don't really wanna look through all 57 pages of this to find the answer, the only thing I noticed was that Mia was suddenly in Upper Mid instead of Lower Mid, where she was last time I looked at a FE9 list (forever ago). Anyone wanna briefly recap for me why?

Proper BEXP placement made her earlygame look better, IIRC.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't really wanna look through all 57 pages of this to find the answer, the only thing I noticed was that Mia was suddenly in Upper Mid instead of Lower Mid, where she was last time I looked at a FE9 list (forever ago). Anyone wanna briefly recap for me why?

"Proper BEXP placement made her earlygame look better, IIRC."

For a not so brief summary:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=820&p=627193entry627193

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/path-of-radiance-f5/sandbag-mia-topic-t34.htm

Yeah, that's a lot of posts. Guess that's not a brief recap like you requested, though.