FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

Anyway, if you still can't see the two being close enougth, then I'll just leave happy knowing I moved Reyson down. Though I disagree with Marcia > Ike due to being frailer (to a point where it matters with all those ballistae in later maps), needing more resources to become good (she joins underlevelled and underpowered) and lacking masses of attack power in the first place. Her only advantage over Ike is mov, but that shouldn't be enougth.

She also has flight, 1-2 range, more WTC, and will promote earlier.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I forget how Janaff > Shinon happened, but Shinon at least has his earlygame portions of being good and there's probably enough BEXP to pad him some free levels.

Well, Janaff does have turn 1 transformation in his favor, so he's useful for all of 3-4 turns before untransforming. But other than that, his movement isn't great, he's got bow weakness (and not getting the FG due to Marcia, Jill, etc all being better, he's underleveled for a laguz at this point in the game, and by now, you've got tons of other units which are all better than he is anyway. At least Shinon dominates chapters 3, 4, 5, and part of 7 before coming back at the same time. Then, both Shinon and Janaff rot on the bench for the rest of the game.

Oh, and in case no one knew this, Shinon has a growth total of 410!!! As in, probably the highest growth total in the game besides laguz (due to super-high HP growth). I dare anyone to show me any beorc who has better growths than that. Let's take a look:

Shinon --/4

HP      Str     Mag     Skl     Spd     Luck    Def     Res
34.25	10.95	6.6	17.1	14.95	10.05	10.5	7.2

Silver Bow (he starts A bows, so no problem here):

23.95 (36.95) Mt, 121.2 Hit, 39.95 Avoid, 2 Range only

Janaff 8

HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
39	13	5	15	17	16	11	10
0       +6      0       +5      +3      +4      +2      0
39      19      5       20      20      20      13      10

Beak:

26 Mt, 170 Hit, 60 avoid, 1 range only, with weaknesses to arrows and bows.

Anyway, Janaff really doesn't have much of an advantage here, is growing slower, and is locked to his weak weapon. Shinon has already had 4 chapters of being your second best unit, has A bows, and can go +5 might, which puts his Mt above Janaff and can OHKO a lot of flyers as well. Just something to think about

[-Cynthia-]

Shinon might have good growths, but his bases are pretty terrible.

How is Janaff's movement bad? 9 Mov + flight???

Shinon might end up with more Mt if we give him a Silver Bow (which isn't available when he joins, so why are you gving him one there?) but Janaff doubles more. Janaff also is a lot more durable and can actually have an enemy phase.

Janaff is better when both exist, the fact that Janaff might be benched is irrelevant because we consider both units in play.

Shinon has a few earlygame chapters where he's decent (second best is debatable, I'm not even sure he beats out Gatrie and even Ike is better in some situations), but he's still not that great here. He can't counter anything except for archers and he doesn't ORKO much except for crits. Let's not blow marginal use for a few chapters out of proportion.

It would be easier to justify Shinon up if he was even marginally useful when he rejoined, but he loses to people like trained Rolf and Lucia, so it's almost all his earlygame.

Anyone else want to defend Kieran? I'm about ready to make that change.

Edited February 24, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Fayt Zelpher]

Shinon might have good growths, but his bases are pretty terrible.

I don't think it's really as bad as you think it is. He's got 15 skill and 13 speed along with 70/65 growths. The only thing worrisome is his strength, and it also grows at 65%

How is Janaff's movement bad? 9 Mov + flight???

Because he's not getting the demi band. 6 move and flight isn't great.

Shinon might end up with more Mt if we give him a Silver Bow (which isn't available when he joins, so why are you gving him one there?) but Janaff doubles more. Janaff also is a lot more durable and can actually have an enemy phase. True, but Shinon is fixable with a few levels of BEXP. Janaff isn't, and suffers 40% downtime due to transformation.

Janaff is better when both exist, the fact that Janaff might be benched is irrelevant because we consider both units in play.Very well. Nonetheless, Janaff isn't going to be able to do much of anything either. I don't think that Janaff is going to be able to 2 range anytime soon, and it's far easier to get Shinon to par once he rejoins due to low level and high growths. Janaff isn't going to get a weapon any stronger than his beak, and his speed lead doesn't mean much when he's not going to double much if anything more since they both have tons of growths.

Shinon has a few earlygame chapters where he's decent (second best is debatable, I'm not even sure he beats out Gatrie and even Ike is better in some situations), but he's still not that great here. He can't counter anything except for archers and he doesn't ORKO much except for crits. Let's not blow marginal use for a few chapters out of proportion.Marginal use for a few chapters is a lot better than Janaff is ever going to see. At least Shinon contributes something while he's there in the early game.

It would be easier to justify Shinon up if he was even marginally useful when he rejoined, but he loses to people like trained Rolf and Lucia, so it's almost all his earlygame. As you said above, we can assume that both units are in play, and it's not about Lucia or Rolf here. But really, Shinon isn't doing that much worse than Rolf, anyway:

Character      HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Rolf 20/4      34.2	16.8	6.4	19.9	19	12.8	14.6	9.5
Shinon 20/4    34.25	10.95	6.6	17.1	14.95	10.05	10.5	7.2

Rolf has a slight advantage here, but Shinon is also winning growths significantly. Let's look at those:

Name	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Luck	Def	Res
Shinon	75	65	20	70	65	35	50	40
Rolf	60	40	20	45	50	40	30	25

Shinon wins everything but luck (by 5) and Mag (tied and irrelevant). Of course, Rolf is underleveled, so 20/1 is probably closer, so:

32.4	15.6	5.8	18.55	17.5	11.6	13.7	8.75

And it's suddenly down to only a very slight lead. I'm not seeing why Shinon is really so much worse.

Anyone else want to defend Kieran? I'm about ready to make that change.

I continue to support Oscar, just as I did when I first brought it up.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Tino]

As you said above, we can assume that both units are in play, and it's not about Lucia or Rolf here. But really, Shinon isn't doing that much worse than Rolf, anyway:

Um... Rolf has 6 str, 3 skl, 4 spd, 3 luc, 4 def and 2 res on Shinon. Shinon has nothing on Rolf. Don't you tell me Shinon isn't doing that much worse. He's terrible in comparison.

That's all I really wanted to say.

[Interceptor]

Because he's not getting the demi band. 6 move and flight isn't great.

Janaff can have the demi band. The issue here is that nobody else can have it if he does. This may or may not be better for Janaff's tier position.

[-Cynthia-]

Janaff doesn't even need the Demi Band the whole map, it wouldn't make sense to deny him his full transform bonuses for the first 3-4 turns.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Um... Rolf has 6 str, 3 skl, 4 spd, 3 luc, 4 def and 2 res on Shinon. Shinon has nothing on Rolf. Don't you tell me Shinon isn't doing that much worse. He's terrible in comparison.

That's all I really wanted to say.

Of course, but he's also losing every one of those growths (except luck) by double digits, and in most cases 20-25 points. Plus, 20/1 is a better comparison anyway since he's so underleveled at the start (level 1 at chapter 9). That means that his advantages are really:

4.5 str, 1 skill, .5 speed, 1.2 luck, 3 defense, and 1.5 resistance. Plus, it takes a LOT more babying to get Rolf even to this point than to get Shinon a few levels so his broken growths kick in. I'm not saying that Shinon beats Rolf here, I'm saying that it IS a contest, and close enough to show that he's doing better than Janaff will be.

[Narga_Rocks]

How is Janaff's movement bad? 9 Mov + flight???

Because he's not getting the demi band. 6 move and flight isn't great.

In this game it's 8 move transformed.

He still gets it for the first 3 or 4 turns. After that if he untransforms you probably don't want him pushing through at the front lines anyway, and 6 move should keep up with the foot crowd given he started further ahead. He's comparing to Shinon here, isn't he? Shinon's 7 move will just let him catch up to Janaff when he's moving less.

Character      HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Rolf 20/4      34.2	16.8	6.4	19.9	19	12.8	14.6	9.5
Shinon 20/4    34.25	10.95	6.6	17.1	14.95	10.05	10.5	7.2

Rolf has a slight advantage here, but Shinon is also winning growths significantly. Let's look at those:

Name	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Luck	Def	Res
Shinon	75	65	20	70	65	35	50	40
Rolf	60	40	20	45	50	40	30	25

Shinon wins everything but luck (by 5) and Mag (tied and irrelevant). Of course, Rolf is underleveled, so 20/1 is probably closer, so:

              32.4	15.6	5.8	18.55	17.5	11.6	13.7	8.75

And it's suddenly down to only a very slight lead. I'm not seeing why Shinon is really so much worse.

It's still a 4 or 5 point str advantage at first. The 25% difference in str growth means to cut it in half Shinon needs 8 levels. And if Rolf is only 20/1 while Shinon is 20/4, that means Rolf levels faster. 8 levels of Shinon vs. 9 levels of Rolf means Rolf gets 19.2 str and Shinon gets 16.15 str, so it's still a 3 str lead. 6 damage with doubling, 12 damage with the brave bow. And that's 9/8 levels down the road. Another 9/8 levels down the road and Rolf is at 20/19 and Shinon at 20/20. And Rolf still has a str lead: 22.8 str over 21.35. Only 1 or 2 now, but that took forever and Rolf is still winning. And if Rolf can manage to get Rhys or Marcia or Mist, that's an even bigger lead. Now, I'll grant Rhys is probably the only one likely to go Rolf's way, but that's still an extra +1 when Rolf was already winning by 4 or 5. Shinon has no +mt supports period. And since Rolf is doing more damage, I'd argue it could be 10 vs. 8 rather than 9 vs 8. The 9/8 was just because of the level difference. Also, Rolf has more time with bands, further compounding the issue here.

But, um, shouldn't we be comparing him with Janaff, though?

Anyone else want to defend Kieran? I'm about ready to make that change.

I continue to support Oscar, just as I did when I first brought it up.

Shouldn't that be obvious? With little counter evidence, it seems rather likely that you'd continue to support the unit you started supporting.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Fayt Zelpher]

Alright, Now that we've established that Shinon is not nearly as inferior to Rolf as was previously believed, and takes a HECK of a lot fewer resources (BEXP, kills, band time, etc.) to get there, let's turn to Shinon v. Janaff now.

Character     Level	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Shinon        --/4	34.25	10.95	6.6	17.1	14.95	10.05	10.5	7.2


Janaff          8	39	13	5	15	17	16	11	10
+ Transform     0        0      +6      0       +5      +3       0      +4      +2
Janaff (T)      8       39	19	5	20	20	16	15	12

Well, this looks bad for Shinon. Looks being the key word. Janaff has 6-->8 movement while Shinon has 7. That's basically a draw. As for speed, Janaff seems to be winning decisively. But wait! The speed of the enemies in chapter 19 (the first chapter after Shinon comes back) is:

Well, it's 10-11, and I'm willing to round Shinon's speed to 15 since it's so close (and possible band use as well). That means that Shinon is doubling most enemies anyway. There are 5 enemies on the map that Janaff can double that Shinon can't. And Janaff is taking a lot of damage from the ballista units as well. (21 damage, or a 2HKO at base and a sizable amount of hit chance as well (100 hit for Ballista + enemy stats), so I can't see him doing that much good here. Shinon can 2RKO the fighters, 2RKO the myrms, and so forth. And Janaff isn't ORKOing them as well, so it's not an advantage for him (except for the 14AS myrms which he can kill, which is all of 2 units)

Chapter 20 has a ton of wyvern units that have 1-2 range, decent defense, and low speed. Shinon can ORKO them all with a forged steel and Janaff needs 4-5 hits (2-3 rounds) to do so. That's 14 units. and really adds up to a lot of kills.

Chapter 21 is admittedly an advantage to Janaff due to terrain, but Shinon can still shoot arrows from behind the chokepoints and across the sewers. That's not such a huge advantage for Janaff after all. Especially once Janaff untransforms and becomes a lot weaker and more vulnerable.

Let's look at their stats again going into Chapter 22:

Shinon  --/8	37.25	13.55	7.4	19.9	17.55	11.45	12.5	8.8
Janaff  --/10   41.6    20.1	5.2	21.4	21.3	16.8	15.6    12.5

There are 7 units here that Janaff can double at 21 speed that Shinon can't double with 17 speed. Apart from that, Shinon does better due to having 2 range, which allows him to shoot from beyond the priests and bishops.

This is a level where enemy phase really doesn't matter that much.

And now we get to chapter 23, where flying once again hurts Janaff a lot due to all the ballista units which deal a ton of damage to him. I don't see him getting the full guard - not when you've got Marcia, Jill, and Tanith who are all better and make better use of it.

Chapter 24

Shinon --/13    41	16.8	8.4	23.4	20.8	13.2	15	10.8
Janaff --/14    46.8    22.3	5.6	24.2	23.9	18.4	16.8	13.5

Now it's four enemies that Shinon can't double and Janaff can. In addition, Shinon is doing a lot better against the wyverns due to having an effective 28 might weapon with a forged steel against the flyers. In addition, we have 3 iron bow ballistae on this map that can 2HKO Janaff and be used by Shinon after taking out the sniper. Killing enemies > getting killed, so there's another thing in Shinon's favor.

Chapter 25 is basically the same, except there are now laguz units that Shinon can eat alive with the Laguz bow. He won't double them, but it's still an edge to Shinon, since he has to take one fewer counter to kill them (2-3HKO at range v. 3-6HKO without, depending on the enemy). Plus, we again have the whole iron ballista problem again.

And it's basically the same for the rest of the game.

And even if Janaff had some slight advantages here, Shinon still has his earlygame maps as well, where he does a lot better than Janaff ever will.

So yeah, that's the lot of it. Shinon > Janaff.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Anouleth]

Shinon might have good growths, but his bases are pretty terrible.

I don't think it's really as bad as you think it is. He's got 15 skill and 13 speed along with 70/65 growths. The only thing worrisome is his strength, and it also grows at 65%

13 speed is bad. He certainly doesn't double much in C19.

Shinon has a few earlygame chapters where he's decent (second best is debatable, I'm not even sure he beats out Gatrie and even Ike is better in some situations), but he's still not that great here. He can't counter anything except for archers and he doesn't ORKO much except for crits. Let's not blow marginal use for a few chapters out of proportion.Marginal use for a few chapters is a lot better than Janaff is ever going to see. At least Shinon contributes something while he's there in the early game.

Gatrie is far better than earlygame Shinon. I can throw Gatrie into a pile of enemies and leave them all weakened for someone else to finish off. Shinon can weaken one thing per turn for someone to kill, and his crit rate means he might actually take the kill, which is a massive waste when he leaves for half the game and he's promoted.

It would be easier to justify Shinon up if he was even marginally useful when he rejoined, but he loses to people like trained Rolf and Lucia, so it's almost all his earlygame. As you said above, we can assume that both units are in play, and it's not about Lucia or Rolf here. But really, Shinon isn't doing that much worse than Rolf, anyway:

Character      HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Rolf 20/4      34.2	16.8	6.4	19.9	19	12.8	14.6	9.5
Shinon 20/4    34.25	10.95	6.6	17.1	14.95	10.05	10.5	7.2

Rolf has a slight advantage here, but Shinon is also winning growths significantly. Let's look at those:

Name	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Luck	Def	Res
Shinon	75	65	20	70	65	35	50	40
Rolf	60	40	20	45	50	40	30	25

Shinon wins everything but luck (by 5) and Mag (tied and irrelevant). Of course, Rolf is underleveled, so 20/1 is probably closer, so:

32.4	15.6	5.8	18.55	17.5	11.6	13.7	8.75

And it's suddenly down to only a very slight lead. I'm not seeing why Shinon is really so much worse.

Shinon may not be that high a level, given that his exp gain in earlygame is so slow and we will be extremely reluctant to give him kills for the 3 or 4 chapters he exists. In addition, Rolf's speed lead means he doubles a lot of enemies that Shinon doesn't.

And Shinon NEVER catches up. 20/10 Rolf beats 20/12 Shinon in everything except HP, SKL and MAG, everything else he has a clear lead in. And Rolf will have supports - nobody on his list wants Wind, but they're likely to be fielded, which is more than can be said for Shinon's options of Rolf and Janaff. Shinon's supports don't even give him what he's really interested in - more ATK.

Alright, Now that we've established that Shinon is not nearly as inferior to Rolf as was previously believed, and takes a HECK of a lot fewer resources (BEXP, kills, band time, etc.) to get there, let's turn to Shinon v. Janaff now.

We have plenty of BEXP to throw around. I see no reason that we can't put some on Rolf when he joins.

Everyone takes kills. It's implied in the whole 'deploying them' thing that yes, they will be killing stuff. We're not deploying Rolf so he can sit in a corner and do nothing.

We have lots of bands, and they're easy to trade around and make sure that people gain levels with them. Even if Rolf did have to pay an opportunity cost for band use, it's probably less than the benefit he gets from it, since he's underlevelled and will be gaining fast.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

It seems pretty obvious to me that even Rolf> Shinon when Shinon rejoins, so really it all comes dowen to Shinon's ealrygame utility. I'm kind of inclined to keep him where he is, earlygame chapters are short and he' not even that good in them. Whether he's below Tauroneo or below Janaff or w/e are fairly arbitrary distinctions though.

Edited February 25, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Fayt Zelpher]

Could someone explain why Muarim is a full tier over Mordecai? I am not seeing how Muarim makes up the gap caused by Mordecai's 6 chapters before he joins.

[-Cynthia-]

Could someone explain why Muarim is a full tier over Mordecai? I am not seeing how Muarim makes up the gap caused by Mordecai's 6 chapters before he joins.

If we give 2 levels to Mordecai before Muarim joins, it's a 6 Spd gap.

[Fayt Zelpher]

If we give 2 levels to Mordecai before Muarim joins, it's a 6 Spd gap.

Fair enough.

What about Largo over Ranulf? When Ranulf has more concrete durability UNTRANSFORMED than Largo and an additional chapter as well (CH 23), plus better movement and arguably better supports as well, I'm not seeing Largo's superiority.

[Deliriyum]

Fair enough.

What about Largo over Ranulf? When Ranulf has more concrete durability UNTRANSFORMED than Largo and an additional chapter as well (CH 23), plus better movement and arguably better supports as well, I'm not seeing Largo's superiority.

Because Largo is a real man with an 8-pack of steel? Your argument sounds convincing.

[-Cynthia-]

Largo vs. Ranulf is a case of offense vs. defense... Largo can ORKO like everyhing with a few levels of BEXP, Ranulf has gauge and Mt issues.

Ranulf might have better supports, but they don't really help his problems. Ike/Mordecai are probably full, Lethe gives him..more Hit and minimal Avo? At least Largo's supports help his defenses a little.

I think it was decided that while Largo's durability is worse, it's not so bad it hinders his offense that much. If Largo is that worried, he can probably ORKO stuff with just a forged hand axe.

Edited February 26, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Out of curiosity, is there a known 12 turn stealth strategy for Ch 10? I just did one in NM and, with some luck, killed all 3 enemies in the chest room, got 3 escapes, and got the Statue Frag, Counter scroll, and Short Axe. In HM, I'd probably assume you can still get one of the Counter scroll and Short Axe and probably only 1 Escape (Ike), but it should still be doable. Before I post my log, is there a known method already?

[Narga_Rocks]

Out of curiosity, is there a known 12 turn stealth strategy for Ch 10? I just did one in NM and, with some luck, killed all 3 enemies in the chest room, got 3 escapes, and got the Statue Frag, Counter scroll, and Short Axe. In HM, I'd probably assume you can still get one of the Counter scroll and Short Axe and probably only 1 Escape (Ike), but it should still be doable. Before I post my log, is there a known method already?

I don't think there is one here that gets all that you got. I think something gets just the axe, or something. I forget what topic it is in.

[Krad]

Out of curiosity, is there a known 12 turn stealth strategy for Ch 10? I just did one in NM and, with some luck, killed all 3 enemies in the chest room, got 3 escapes, and got the Statue Frag, Counter scroll, and Short Axe. In HM, I'd probably assume you can still get one of the Counter scroll and Short Axe and probably only 1 Escape (Ike), but it should still be doable. Before I post my log, is there a known method already?

http://s14.zetaboards.com/Legend_of_the_Emblem/topic/452248/1/

And this thread.

[Florete]

http://s14.zetaboards.com/Legend_of_the_Emblem/topic/452248/1/

And this thread.

I see. I actually forgot those were Archers in HM. Still, my method on NM gets the Statue Frag and 1-2 of the others (maybe Master Seal as well. It depends on your luck and how strong your Ike is) while the one on this forum already misses the SF and gets 3 of the left chests. I personally find the 4k to be worth more than whatever 2-3 you don't get from the left, seeing as Javelins and Steel Lances are buyable and Counter is kinda useless imo. I'd rather not necro, so I guess I'll post it if it's ever asked for.

I *think* I also could have taken 1 more turn but gotten 4 more Escapes (10 more BEXP overall) and a better guarantee on the items at the left, and this might also allow the one who fights the boss to be someone other than Ike, but at that point I didn't feel like resetting again to test it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I *think* I also could have taken 1 more turn but gotten 4 more Escapes (10 more BEXP overall) and a better guarantee on the items at the left, and this might also allow the one who fights the boss to be someone other than Ike, but at that point I didn't feel like resetting again to test it.

That's why I love battle saves in RD. Not to abuse level ups or manipulating 50% hit rates to make sure they miss/hit. I love them because of how much easier they make testing stuff. Stuff like the support system.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm actually not sure if this tier list attempts to maximize BEXP or not atm, since scenarios like Ch10 we can probably finish it faster and gain more CEXP than the BEXP we get from being pacifists. You could maybe say the same for Ch15 as well.

I don't want to make a huge deal out of this, since it only affects character's positions pretty minorly, but I thought I would mention it

Edited March 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Well, how much do we want the CEXP? Boyd/Oscar/Ike are already doing pretty well, so they don't really need it. I guess it's good training for Soren/Ilyana/Rolf/Marcia... but if we're using them, wouldn't it be easier to BEXP them rather than feed them kills?

And the BEXP is more flexible. We can give it to Nephenee or Zihark or Jill when they join, or even further down the line Astrid/Makalov/Tormod (although sitting on the BEXP for that long probably isn't that great an idea).

I guess it depends really on who you use.

[Kinata]

I'm actually not sure if this tier list attempts to maximize BEXP or not atm, since scenarios like Ch10 we can probably finish it faster and gain more CEXP than the BEXP we get from being pacifists. You could maybe say the same for Ch15 as well.

I'm pretty sure the BEXP is quite a bit greater than the CEXP in ch. 10 since there aren't many reinforcements.