FE9 Tier list v3

[HJ.]

Obviously you do not know how easy it is to train units in this game. What do you think got Mia into Upper Mid? Using Shinon early on will not hurt you in the least.

Is this somehow supposed to change the fact that giving the Exp to better units, which can just as easily be done, is preferable?

[Shadow Mir]

Shinon is useful early on? He sucks massively all the time and giving him kills provides much less Exp than letting one of your unpromoted, soon-to-become super good units the kills. Seems like the type you'd wanna avoid like the plague.

Never mind the fact that Shinon is your only GOOD ranged attacker early on. Soren isn't doing much damage and Javelins and Hand Axes have crap accuracy.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I think that Gatrie is way too low, seeing as though he's got godly strength and defense and will have the knight ward for the majority, if not all of his chapters. I'd be willing to argue to move him up all the way above Rhys if you will permit me to make the argument.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[HJ.]

Who cares if he has some sort of obscure unique quality like that? Knoll is the best dark magic user in FE8, but that doesn't save him from sucking.

[Florete]

Well, okay then. How is Elincia's sword not good btw? It seems pretty amazing to me. Defensive boosts + Brave Sword qualities + not breaking ever is pretty h4x.

Damage. Elincia has 18 base Str and even Sages have 10+ Def at this point. Her 18 Spd also stops her from quadding a good amount of the enemies and her durability sucks. It takes 25 atk to 2HKO her, which like everything reaches. Some SM's even ORKO her.

EDIT: Wait, that's wrong, I forgot Amiti's +3 Def. There are still a good amount of enemies that can 2HKO her.

Well, yeah, a good Ike is needed to get Nasir, but how often is Ike bad and what does that have to do with Nasir's performance? Am I missing something here? I remember Nasir being kinda beastly when he was around, which is much more than can be said of some units even in the tier above him.

A guaranteed good Ike means the team is that much stronger, meaning Nasir won't likely be as useful as he might have been otherwise.

Is this somehow supposed to change the fact that giving the Exp to better units, which can just as easily be done, is preferable?

Don't use Titania, she sucks up too much valuable experience!

I think that Gatrie is way too low, seeing as though he's got godly strength and defense and will have the knight ward for the majority, if not all of his chapters. I'd be willing to argue to move him up all the way above Rhys if you will permit me to make the argument.

I made an argument to close the gap between him and Brom but nothing happened. Meh.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

The arguments with regards to units being stupidly easy to train are quite legit from what I've been seeing, but HJ's point about Shinon being a total waste of EXP while not doing much anyways is also legit. If possible, I'd like to give that EXP to someone else, and it's very possible. Titania's hand axe offense probably exceeds his steel bow offense (especially on all those lance d00ds), but I could be wrong.

Edit: So Elincia sucking makes the sword not good? The sword is still broken as fuck, lol. I wouldn't be opposed to pumping a big of BEXP into her with the Fighter/Knight Bands on and then getting a pretty decent unit out it. One certainly better than those low tiers.

A strong Ike makes Nasir not as useful? Eh, I can see that, but it seems like such a minor point. Nasir is still outperforming those guys in low tier and is good regardless of Ike having straight caps or being bad, lol.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[Interceptor]

Is this somehow supposed to change the fact that giving the Exp to better units, which can just as easily be done, is preferable?

Problem is, that's not a fact. This is an efficiency tier list, not a ranked list, and Shinon helps with efficient play fairly well because of his tankiness and his offense. Kills are not the only way to raise units in this game, because of BEXP.

[HJ.]

Efficiency also implies efficient Exp distribution, at least in my mind. There's no way I'd sacrifice all that Exp for what, 2 turns? Hell, the level ups gained by not using Shinon will probably matter more in the long run.

@ Foxie: lol, yeah, because titania and shinon perform equally later on. Definitely.

[Interceptor]

Efficiency also implies efficient Exp distribution, at least in my mind. There's no way I'd sacrifice all that Exp for what, 2 turns?

This is the difference between tiering "efficient play" and tiering "whatever the hell HJKun wants to do". Sometimes giving out EXP to units who can level-up with it improves efficiency because it makes them powerful enough to tip the scales, but that's not always the case. FE9's earlygame is one of those times. The gains are small, the alternatives are manifest.

Hell, the level ups gained by not using Shinon will probably matter more in the long run.

No, they probably won't matter. See, now I've provided exactly as much evidence for my assertion as you just did.

Oh, and I could also mention how much spare BEXP I had sloshing around in my convoy in my (aborted) efficient run that had people ORKOing like maniacs.

[HJ.]

This is the difference between tiering "efficient play" and tiering "whatever the hell HJKun wants to do". Sometimes giving out EXP to units who can level-up with it improves efficiency because it makes them powerful enough to tip the scales, but that's not always the case. FE9's earlygame is one of those times. The gains are small, the alternatives are manifest.

Man, you're about as friendly to new people as Hitler was to jews. Did you get raped by a foreigner as a child or something? How should I know efficiency only means zerg-rushing to the most extreme extent possible while ignoring Exp distribution? But really, maybe you should consider changing the tier to speedrun tier instead of efficiency tier, to avoid it being so misleading.

"2 a : efficient operation b (1) : effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money)"

So let's say each turn is an hour. Shinon kills the enemy and gains... I have no idea. Let's say he gains 10 Exp. Or $100, if you prefer. Boyd gains $300 per kill. So obviously you want to have Boyd kill in all cases because Boyd gets more money. Satisfied? No? Geez...

Let's say Shinon takes out three enemies in the whole chapter and you took 10 turns, so he gained $300 and you spent 10 hours. Or I could use one extra turn and have Ike/Oscar/Boyd each kill one of the three enemies Shinon killed, earning me more than three times the money for one more hour of work. This is by far and away the most efficient and preferable way. It is not, however, the fastest way, but that's a different thing.

Edited February 11, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun

[Interceptor]

Man, you're about as friendly to new people as Hitler was to jews.

This is a good simile. You and I might get along.

How should I know efficiency only means zerg-rushing to the most extreme extent possible while ignoring Exp distribution?

I don't know, maybe you could click the first link in the OP, which goes to a FAQ that details the two most common ways to tier, including this one. Or you could just stumble around on page 50 and irritate the forum's resident curmudgeon. Personally, I prefer option B, since it gives me something to do.

So let's say each turn is an hour. Shinon kills the enemy and gains... I have no idea. Let's say he gains 10 Exp. Or $100, if you prefer. Boyd gains $300 per kill. So obviously you want to have Boyd kill in all cases because Boyd gets more money. Satisfied? No? Geez...

Let's say Shinon takes out three enemies in the whole chapter and you took 10 turns, so he gained $300 and you spent 10 hours. Or I could use one extra turn and have Ike/Oscar/Boyd each kill one of the three enemies Shinon killed, earning me more than three times the money for one more hour of work. This is by far and away the most efficient and preferable way. It is not, however, the fastest way, but that's a different thing.

This would be an excellent analogy, if not for the fatal flaw of having nothing to do with FE9 in any way, shape, or form. I'm afraid that converting CEXP into cash money doesn't survive the process.

[HJ.]

The comparison also works without converting it into cash, because the cost/production ratio remains unchanged whether we argue in cash or Exp.

I guess I can admit I'm not without innocence for not "studying" up either, but still, calling it efficiency-based still seems like a misnomer.

Edited February 11, 2010 by TheloveableHJKun

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, okay then. How is Elincia's sword not good btw? It seems pretty amazing to me. Defensive boosts + Brave Sword qualities + not breaking ever is pretty h4x.

Yeah, the sword itself is nice. It's not as good as it becomes in fe10 (15 mt on an unlimited use brave weapon?), but if I could take that sword and put it in the hands of any of the swordmasters they'd be pretty wicked. Even give it to some other random sword using unit.

Well, yeah, a good Ike is needed to get Nasir, but how often is Ike bad and what does that have to do with Nasir's performance? Am I missing something here? I remember Nasir being kinda beastly when he was around, which is much more than can be said of some units even in the tier above him.

I mostly take issue with his movement. He takes forever to get anywhere. I forget what his untransformed wt is, though, so maybe you could carry him around a bit and then stone him or something.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I mostly take issue with his movement. He takes forever to get anywhere. I forget what his untransformed wt is, though, so maybe you could carry him around a bit and then stone him or something.

You can with a mounted unit or possibly with a transformed beast laguz. He has 12 con/17 Wt untransformed.

[Interceptor]

The comparison also works without converting it into cash, because the cost/production ratio remains unchanged whether we argue in cash or Exp.

That's not really the problem. The issue here is that by abstracting CEXP into money -- something with discrete value -- you are missing the point that CEXP is only CEXP. It is a means to an end. We only care about CEXP to the extent that it allows us to beat the game more efficiently by making our units more powerful.

I guess I can admit I'm not without innocence for not "studying" up either, but still, calling it efficiency-based still seems like a misnomer.

It is a misnomer of sorts, but it's a concept that is easy to grasp.

[-Cynthia-]

Ulki has good durability due to his Skl and Def (like all laguz in this game), but is stuck with the equivalent of an Iron Lance forever and has doubling issues. Not that Janaff is much better, but he doubles more consistently.

Amiti is decent, but Elincia doesn't have the stats to use it effectively. Really Elincia's main problem is that she only has 3 chapters of availability, and PoR is so easy that almost anyone is a postive contributor with minimal effort. It's the same reason Nasir is so low, only 2 chapters, plus he has to transform, has medicore attack and low Mov.

Shinon helps clear the ealrygame chapters more efficiently. He's your best offensive unit outside of Titania. That has to count for something

I would be open for Gatrie moving up, question is where.

Bottom tier has been eliminated.

Edited February 12, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Fayt Zelpher]

I would be open for Gatrie moving up, question is where.

I think it's a whole tier, really, and he's definitely > Brom. His usefulness in 3,4,5, and the second half of 7 is much better than Brom's in 11 and 12, and Gatrie's still better when he gets back in 13. Furthermore, Gatrie has the same or higher growths in every stat (except his magic, which is irrelevant, since neither of them are going to be wielding magic weapons), and his bases and level are arguably as good if not better. I'd actually be willing to argue that Brom needs to go below Sothe. As for Gatrie, I'd stick him right above Ilyana to be perfectly honest.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[-Cynthia-]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's all about Spd.

Gatrie has 5 base Spd at a starting level of 9.

Brom has 7 base Spd at a starting level of 8.

Brom has more levels with the KW (especially because Gatrie likely got a few non-KW levels in the earlygame), so it goes to say that Brom doubles more easily than Gatrie does, beating him in offense handily when he doubles and Gatrie doesn't.

Brom also has better supports.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's all about Spd.

Gatrie has 5 base Spd at a starting level of 9.

Brom has 7 base Spd at a starting level of 8.

Brom has more levels with the KW (especially because Gatrie likely got a few non-KW levels in the earlygame), so it goes to say that Brom doubles more easily than Gatrie does, beating him in offense handily when he doubles and Gatrie doesn't.

Brom also has better supports.

Well, a few points. First, Gatrie is still going to double all the armors and a lot of the fighters during the first part of the game, since they're weighed down to 0 or 1 speed. Iron blade SM's aren't doing much better, and mages are practically OHKO'ed by him. He's going to gain maybe 2 levels and go to level 11. Brom Doubles more easily, but it's hardly relevant: Gatrie's not going to be out there to kill all the units: he just sits there, gets hit, and takes scratch damage. What I don't see is what the relevant supports are likely to be. I see Gatrie getting A Ilyana B Shinon and Brom only getting B Boyd and A Neph. Brom doesn't want Zihark, as other characters could use the avoid far more. Plus, Gatrie still has those early chapters where he's godly. Even if Gatrie won't do as well from about 13-16, it's not that big of a deal, since they even out significantly. Comparing Brom +KW vs. Gatrie +KW, I'm still not seeing how that 2 speed difference is going to make that big of a deal, since they're both going to be slower than a lot of things throughout the game anyway. The real reason why Gatrie is better is, like I said, those early chapters that Brom can't adequately answer in his chapter 11 and 12.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, a few points. First, Gatrie is still going to double all the armors and a lot of the fighters during the first part of the game, since they're weighed down to 0 or 1 speed. Iron blade SM's aren't doing much better, and mages are practically OHKO'ed by him. He's going to gain maybe 2 levels and go to level 11. Brom Doubles more easily, but it's hardly relevant: Gatrie's not going to be out there to kill all the units: he just sits there, gets hit, and takes scratch damage. What I don't see is what the relevant supports are likely to be. I see Gatrie getting A Ilyana B Shinon and Brom only getting B Boyd and A Neph. Brom doesn't want Zihark, as other characters could use the avoid far more. Plus, Gatrie still has those early chapters where he's godly. Even if Gatrie won't do as well from about 13-16, it's not that big of a deal, since they even out significantly. Comparing Brom +KW vs. Gatrie +KW, I'm still not seeing how that 2 speed difference is going to make that big of a deal, since they're both going to be slower than a lot of things throughout the game anyway. The real reason why Gatrie is better is, like I said, those early chapters that Brom can't adequately answer in his chapter 11 and 12.

Why wouldn't Brom take Zihark? Why wouldn't Zihark take Brom? Zihark has to wait until chapter 26 to get an A Ilyana, or chapter 25 to get an A Muarim. He can have A Brom by chapter 21. That's pretty significant when you consider he can have AB for +25 avo by chapter 21 this way. If he's Brom-less then at this point he has B Ilyana C Muarim at best, which is 17 avo. Also he has +1 def instead of +2 def. And he doesn't have any +mt. That +1mt is bound to help out on something. And he can have that from chapter 18 on. I'll grant that BB Ilyana/Muarim has the same +avo as AB Brom Ilyana, but AB Brom Muarim also has 5 more avo than that anyway. Plus he needs to wait until chapter 22 for that BB Ilyana Muarim. Basically, Zihark doesn't really want to wait for Muarim to show up if he doesn't have to and Brom is faster than Ilyana even if he is waiting for Muarim for the second part of his support.

So, Zihark wants Brom and Brom doesn't mind Zihark. Especially since Zihark is one chapter faster for a B and one faster for an A. Not super significant, though, I suppose.

Also, having a 5 -> 6 move unit that just takes pain and doesn't kill isn't really all that great. If he was an 8 -> 9 move unit that didn't kill it would be one thing, but not doubling when the only way you can face enough enemies to fully use your durability is if the other PCs hold back isn't so great.

(edit, this last part was about Gatrie. At least, for things Brom doubles and Gatrie doesn't this applies)

Edited February 12, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

There's something that bothers me when it comes to talking about FE9 tiers.

Why are there so many tiers for this game? There's no rankings which means you can use Boyd (or whoever) from chapter 5 on with no penalty aside from just keeping other units from fighting. Wouldn't that mean that the tier list essentially has three catagories of units (Always used, sometimes used, never used) and not six?

In a game that involves ranking, there's a case for almost every unit to be played at some point, no matter how small their appearance might be (Renault or Karla in FE7 for example). This isn't the case for this game as if I choose to sit Shinon, the game doesn't really care. If I choose to play Shinon over Oscar (just tossing out a random name of a good unit), once again the game doesn't care. So why do are the tiers so complicated when they can be boiled down to three basic groups?

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

There's something that bothers me when it comes to talking about FE9 tiers.

Why are there so many tiers for this game?

Simple answer, people want to play as efficiently as possible, even if rankings don't exist for this game. I guess you can call it an efficiency tier list.

[Interceptor]

There's something that bothers me when it comes to talking about FE9 tiers.

Why are there so many tiers for this game? There's no rankings which means you can use Boyd (or whoever) from chapter 5 on with no penalty aside from just keeping other units from fighting. Wouldn't that mean that the tier list essentially has three catagories of units (Always used, sometimes used, never used) and not six?

I don't like "likelihood of being used", because that gets into crystal ball player psychology. This is straight-up efficient play, tier gaps delineate clear breaks in performance. You can say that Titania and Oscar are both basically required for an efficient play, but the gap between them shows just how much better Titania is than Oscar for that goal.

[Life]

I don't like "likelihood of being used", because that gets into crystal ball player psychology. This is straight-up efficient play, tier gaps delineate clear breaks in performance. You can say that Titania and Oscar are both basically required for an efficient play, but the gap between them shows just how much better Titania is than Oscar for that goal.

I'm not disputing that as I also believe that Titania deserves her own tier for being awesome. My problem is with this.

Top

Jill

Kieran

Oscar

Boyd

Reyson

High

Ike

Marcia

Tanith

Astrid

Makalov

Muarim

What's the difference between Top and High when both sets of units are going to be used most of the time which would make them fall under the "Always Used" catagory? Ike is the Lord and has no slot cost and for Marcia, Tanith, Astrid, Makalov and Muarim, once you get them, they'll always be played because there are more slots than just fielding Titania + Top tier guys. So why not just combine the two into Always Used?

Just so you know, my problem isn't with the ordering. It's with the tiers themselves.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Interceptor]

I think it's pretty straightforward why there is a tier difference between someone like Oscar, and someone like Astrid. Astrid shows up kinda late and doesn't come into her own until she can use Axes, which requires time or a lot of BEXP. Also, there are several units that you could train in place of Astrid (like Makalov, or Marcia) and you'd be fine.