FE9 Tier list v3

[Colonel M]

Wait, you say you wanted Lucia out of Bottom... then start describing stuff that would take her out of bottom.

Yes, she's not the greatest, but we can at least dump a load of Bexp on her (8 levels worth) to make her workable.

That's a fuckton of BEXP we're dumping here. Geoffrey, for example, isn't bad for a BEXP dump because Paragon slashes the amount needed for level ups in half. Lucia is a Level 12 promoted unit. Just to hit Level 13 is 250. That isn't terrible until you add up what is needed to hit Level 20. Lucia is asking for 2,652 worth of BEXP. Want an idea on how much that is? I could take Rolf from base level to 20/1. Instantly. I'd even have 467 BEXP left over. So I consumed 2,185 BEXP on a unit that is Level 1 and pretty much boosted him 19 levels, which is over double of Lucia's. I can take Rolf up to Level 20/4 with the same amount it takes to get Lucia to 20/20.

34.2 HP | 16.8 Str | 6.4 Mag | 19.9 Skl | 19 Spd | 12.8 Luck | 14.6 Def | 9.5 Res

Yes Rolf is shitty, I think we're all over that fact. The point is if I can make someone crappy like Rolf into a better unit that has better availability, why the hell should I even bother sitting on all that BEXP and twiddling my thumbs until I get Lucia? This is like waiting until 5 years before I retire to start my retirement account. I could've done this a hell of a lot sooner and gotten greater results in the end throughout the whole time.

There is some justification to Geoffrey and Ena. Ena is only situational I guess in the scenario of a RNG-screwed Ike (which doesn't always happen, mind you). Geoffrey has little cost to his BEXP. Remember that propelling him a level costs 118 BEXP. We're probably not sitting on a ton of BEXP at that point, but obviously it goes to show that Geoffrey isn't asking for much.

Of course this only explains Geoffrey > Lucia, but the main weakness of your argument is giving her BEXP in the first place. Since you are power boosting her to Level 20, you'd have to argue why I should give 2,652 BEXP to her when I could give the same amount to anyone else and skyrocket them in levels and potential with the team? What's funny is that same 2,652 BEXP I could take Nephenee and boost her to 20/7. Of course there isn't likely 2,652 BEXP by the time Nephenee shows up, but the main point is the opportunity cost giving it to Lucia vs. giving it to someone else, in general, who can put it to better use early on.

[Snowy_One]

I didn't mean jumping her all the way up to 20/20. Not in one go. That would be very stupid, especially since doing so would mean any kills she did take would be a literal waste of Cexp. I do see the point in my post though that confused you and understand. What I meant we can dump a load of Bexp on her to make her grow, and that we would have to jump her up 8 levels total (not all from Bexp. Also from combat and maybe a bit of kill setting up, but still...). Blame me being a complete putz in the morning and libel to make huge mistakes like that while trying to keep my eyes open.

Anyways, a better way that I should have stated it is this. I do agree she won't be moving out of bottom. My point, though, is that she can be redeemed and probably shouldn't be so low. Yes, she's not the greatest, but we can at least dump a load of Bexp on her to help her get up those 8 levels she needs to be workable. At 20/20, while her stats aren't shining, they are not, shall we say, Bastion-level bad. At 19 STR, she may be weak, but she can still feasibly take a forge weapon to perform average. With 14 magic, she may not be able to KO well even with the RS/SS (only 15 MAG with the mage band and no attack supports make Mist and Mia better choices and if you have them around at that point, I would think giving them to Elincia a superior option but still...), but she can still at least make use of them.

Also, while I don't disagree with it being a lot to get her up 8 levels, jumping her up 4 levels would reduce the cost from 2,652 to 1,111 Bexp. While it's still a lot for a slightly below average performance, the point is not that Lucia should move out of bottom, but rather up a bit. Possibly over Nasir.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Snowy_One

[Zkirsche]

Come up with an equivalently quick clear for Ch13 that doesn't involve over-leveling the shit out of Mia, Zihark, or Marcia. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Overlevel the fuck out of Oscar + Kieran?

And besides, that's not necessarily "efficient", Marcia, perhaps, for chapter 15, but even then, MIa has no outside benefits form being promoted early as her movement just isn't good enougth.

[Interceptor]

Overlevel the fuck out of Oscar + Kieran?

They'd need to be 20/9 or something hilarious in order to have a chance at ending Ch12 more quickly. Mia only has to be around level 17 or so. As a result, efficient play with her deployed is likely to have her at a high level in Ch13.

And besides, that's not necessarily "efficient", Marcia, perhaps, for chapter 15, but even then, MIa has no outside benefits form being promoted early as her movement just isn't good enougth.

I don't know where you get the idea that Mia doesn't have any benefits from early promotion. She's moving at a 7 as a Swordmaster, gets innate crit, and has the STR to take some clean ORKOs from enemies. She's worse than the paladins/fliers that she's lower than on the tier list, but more useful than the units that can't even keep up with her (never mind everyone else).

Mia also has earlygame in her pocket. Hard to argue that she's not part of efficient clears of 8, 9, 11, 12, etc.

[Narga_Rocks]

Overlevel the fuck out of Oscar + Kieran?

Um, how about one that doesn't bankrupt us? To get Oscar to 19 speed for chapter 12 you need him to be around 20/6. To get Kieran to 19 speed you need 20/5 or 20/6. To get Mia there with the laguzslayer you need around level 17. Yeah. Level 17 you are likely to have either 12 str or 20 spd and 12/19 or 11/20 both result in 19 attack speed.

And besides, that's not necessarily "efficient", Marcia, perhaps, for chapter 15, but even then, MIa has no outside benefits form being promoted early as her movement just isn't good enougth.

Um, all you need is to shave turns in chapter 12 without costing turns later. Trust me, you have the bexp to prevent losses later even if you give Mia what she needs. And remember, Interceptor had nearly everyone hovering around promotion for chapter 16. It's not like it cost him anything. You don't even need to get outside benefits as long as it helps in chapter 12.

I got ninja'd.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

ohhhhh you meant chapter 12

Ch13

got me confused :/

[Narga_Rocks]

ohhhhh you meant chapter 12

got me confused :/

Wow. Int made a mistake (and I didn't even notice). Oops on my part for not noticing.

Yeah, there is nothing really you need to do for an "efficient clear" of chapter 13 aside from killing everything to maximize exp (as there is nothing more to even do). I suppose the most "efficient" you can be is killing everything possible with the minimum number of units needed to complete the task. Or in some other way maximize total exp gained.

Yeah, chapter 12. The error probably stems from Ether commenting on chapter 13 and the number 13 being in the quote to which he was responding.

[-Cynthia-]

I usually don't count availability wins for much unless the character is actually good during the time period where the other one isn't around.

Nasir and Lucia end up having pretty similar Atk and Spd, except Lucia has crit. The difference being of course, that Nasir is pretty incredibly durable (56 HP/29 Def), while Lucia is pretty incredibly...not. Nasir does have gauge and low Mov to deal with though.

I usually don't let anyone except Ike and Giffca be in Ashnard's range, because the dragons have pretty weak counters and end up getting slaughtered anyway.

[Zkirsche]

If it helps restart discussion, I'd like to propose moving Mist (and, if necessary, Volke too) below Soren. Soren's chip damage is very helpful earlygame to help create ORKO's. So his earlygame matters, and he can be earlysealed for staves. In fact, doing so is essentially better than earlysealing Mist as 6 mov is enougth to keep up at this point and his combat is better afterwards. Not to mention, he has 1-2 range and, later on, 3-10 range for when(/if) he gets left behind and cannot do anything. At that point, Mist's str still sucks ass (sonic sword isn't going to last forever)

[Snowy_One]

Doesn't Soren also have the advantage of Thunder tomes, making a vantage/wrath combo on him at least a noticeable advantage (not as great as Neph/Mia granted, but better than giving it to most others). Not to mention adept (though it is minor in the early game).

[-Cynthia-]

Soren only chips for like 7 damage, doesn't double...just about everything, and gets 2HKOd at high hit rates. Mist's healing is definitely better than Soren's chip, though I guess it's fair to say that Mist isn't healing while Soren is chipping for the most part.

Mist's big advantages over Soren are having greater heal range (due to horse), greater attack range(due to Mov), and supports. Soren is better offensively though.

Edited July 14, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zynac]

So ive kinda came up on the end here and dont know if this was asked before but how is ike not in one of the upper most tiers? i mean hes practically the best unit, because you can essentialy finish the game with him alone. He always availibe( ok so he cant class up til after Ch 17 but he can still easily be leveled to full level) and with ragnell he is basically invincible, with the most damaging sword and with range! i don't see how hes at least one tier higher, please explain i understand im not a master at all of this and that you guys...are, so please enlighten me if i am wrong

[-Cynthia-]

Ike's locked to swords. This means that he's always at 1 range (thus not being able to counter 2 range or 1-2 range range enemies). His Mt also isn't that impressive, so unlike many of the axe wielders he's not cleanly ORKOing things.

Another problem is his Mov, many of the characters above him have +2 or 3 Mov on him, some have flight. This allows them to reach enemies and arrive spaces faster, thus saving us turns.

Late promotion isn't helping him either. Ragnell is really good, but it's only for the last 2 chapters.

[Zkirsche]

Soren only chips for like 7 damage, doesn't double...just about everything, and gets 2HKOd at high hit rates. Mist's healing is definitely better than Soren's chip, though I guess it's fair to say that Mist isn't healing while Soren is chipping for the most part.

Healing in general, especially earlygame, is not very useful IMO. Rhys, who is currently better than Mist in my run, for example, doesn't heal every turn and when he does heal it's usually just 3-4 HP just so I can get him exp. Whilst it is true it can be useful, not only would I prefer to use Rhys for it due to more being healed, Soren's chip damage allows for easier ORKO's on most units.

Oh and Soren doubles quite a bit actually. Even in chapter 5, all enemies using steel, fighters and javelin users are all doubled by him, and horse knights aren't doubled by anyone except Titania. Plus, units like Boyd/Gatrie leave low HP units so even if a unit isn't doubled, Soren might be able to KO. Just to highlight how easy Soren makes ORKO's, in chapter 5 he killed an enemy on every one of his player phases, and had teh option to kill anotehr on his sixth, which I gave to Ike. Then in chapter 8, he can have like 9 AS, which is plenty for doubling enemies, especially those damned armour knights.

Mist's big advantages over Soren are having greater heal range (due to horse), greater attack range(due to Mov), and supports. Soren is better offensively though.

1) It's not actually that large considering greater mag for physics (and we get a tonne of them later on).

2) Bolting.

3) Ike + stefan supports aren't as bad as Rhys' supports. Especially as one of Ike's weaker points is Atk, and 6 mov matches 7 mov better than 9 mov.

Soren is better durably than Mist as well, thanks to better avo from supports.

[Anouleth]

Mist barely needs to gain any levels to whoop Soren's ass in durability. Even a 10/2 Mist has 24HP/7DEF to 20/2 Soren's 31HP/7DEF, except that Mist can also get up to +5 defence from supports, possibly +4 if you give her to Boyd. As time goes on, this turns into a lead for Mist. 10/10 Mist has 28HP/14DEF to 20/10 Soren's 34HP/8DEF, so 28ATK is needed to 2HKO her and only 25 to 2HKO Soren.

And unless Soren is getting display hit on him into the teens, I wouldn't be exposing him to multiple enemies when he's 2HKOed, since his chance of death is still unacceptable.

(Note that I actually totally agree with you and have always wanted Mist down to Mid next to Tormod, I just don't think it's a question of durability. Mist can do precious little aside from heal and have a horse, and I don't think that they're that valuable.)

[Zynac]

Ike's locked to swords. This means that he's always at 1 range (thus not being able to counter 2 range or 1-2 range range enemies). His Mt also isn't that impressive, so unlike many of the axe wielders he's not cleanly ORKOing things.

Another problem is his Mov, many of the characters above him have +2 or 3 Mov on him, some have flight. This allows them to reach enemies and arrive spaces faster, thus saving us turns.

Late promotion isn't helping him either. Ragnell is really good, but it's only for the last 2 chapters.

wow never thought about all of that, thanks for the response! also i think i was confusing him in POR with him in radiant dawn where he has ragnell forever( but hes super weak to magic in RD)

[Zkirsche]

w/e, Mist's durability is more unacceptable earlygame, and you stil wouldn't want to get her hit lategame either.

[Interceptor]

I am fine with Mist getting hit occasionally in lategame if she's countering with the Sonic Sword. She'll be up front anyway, since she's giving godly support bonuses to people, and has her own horse. Soren is in the back, picking up trash with Brom.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm still not sure Mist is entitled to the SS. The other sword users want it, they don't have 1-2 range otherwise, and someone like Tanith can use it for wyvern ORKOs (and Tanith gets more wyvern exposure than Mist due to flight). It also only has 25 uses, so Mist is either killing 12.5 enemies with it or using up a Hammerne use. She'll probably need some Arms Scrolls as well. Due to the above, I find any argument about Mist's offense that's too SS reliant somewhat questionable.

[Interceptor]

Sonic Sword use does not imply that Mist is suddenly a combatant. I'm just pointing out that it goes along with Mist's other functions in the army. She can be up front with everyone else, healing and giving support bonuses, but also packing the sword. She can take a hit, and she'll make the enemy pay for it. Soren's offense is bottomless, but he's a porcelain doll and stuck at the back of the bus. You point out that the sword only has 25 uses, but that undermines your own argument; it's clearly something that you can't rely on for regular use. It does not solve the Swordmaster 2-range problem any more than the Runesword does, it's a limited-use band-aid for corner situations (like, wait for it: Mist countering with it on the front lines!).

Just like every other resource in the game, "wanting" something isn't enough of an argument to deny it to everyone else who can also use it. I don't consider a Mist comparison to be at all worthwhile unless it takes the Sonic Sword into account.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

The thing is an SM/Ike wanting to use the SS for 1-2 range is going to deplete its uses less than Mist wanting to use it every time she enters combat.

The SS makes a better band aid at fixing more minor problems like ORKOing wyverns or not countering ranged enemies than it does at the bigger problem of Mist not ORKOing almost every physical enemy without it. Mist might be able to keep up with the group better, but if enemies attack her on the enemy phase and she doesn't kill them that's not good for efficiency.

Mist's Mov advantage also only comes into play after she promotes. She doesn't gain much EXP on her own (healers get less than combat units), so we have to give her significant amounts of BEXP just to get her up to 10. We could Seal her at 10 I guess (though whether we want to do this before the desert is questionable), but her 10/1 combat still isn't very good (as opposed to Sealing a Mage at 10 who ends up healing just as well). I also have a tough time disagreeing with Mist's Mov advantage becoming less significant when Physics come into play.

[Anouleth]

It seems like a colossal waste to throw both Arms Scrolls on Mist just so she can counter-attack the occasionally enemy and hog the Sonic Sword. What's more, she's not really fast with it either. 10/2 Mist has 23ATK with the Sonic Sword, and she can get more from supports. That's enough to 2HKO. But on the other hand, she has 7 strength and 14 speed, so she only has 12AS. She won't even double the Wyverns and unpromoted Soldiers. Even a 10/2 Tormod can beat that speed, although he loses when it comes to raw attack (with the Spirit Dust, he has 19mt with Thunder).

[Florete]

Mist doesn't need both Arms Scrolls. There should be enough time before the SS even exists to get Mist one weapon level using Steel Swords and forges, so she only needs one.

[Zkirsche]

Mist doesn't need both Arms Scrolls. There should be enough time before the SS even exists to get Mist one weapon level using Steel Swords and forges, so she only needs one.

She promotes, like, as soon as you get the sonic sword. My Rhys, for example, has only got 5 levels in 9 chapters. And, including chapter 10 but excluding chapter 15, there's only 11 chapters between chapter 9 and chapter 18, so good luck getting 9 levels in 11 chapters, when many of those chapters (14, 16 and 17) are larger than those beforehand (chapter 5, 6 and 7, as examples). So it's even more bexp, which we might not have depending on the team (my team, for example, is running out and I'm caught between bexp'ing Brom for a KW beast later on, or Marcia for chapter 15), or over using of better staves if you want to get Mist promoted in time for the sonic sword, let alone before it.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Zwiebel

[-Cynthia-]

I guess we're assuming that we're using a Master Seal on Mist, not getting her to 20/1, though that seems to be just another resource to get Mist's offense up to par. Having a mounted healer earlier is an advantage I guess, though her 10/1 offense isn't turning any heads.

Edited July 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-