FE9 Tier list v3

[Radiant Dragon]

i must comment that Ilyana has the Shade Skill so shouldn't she not be targeted by enemys as often as you'd make her out to be?

I would think it works like this: If an enemy can OHKO Ilyana, it'll do so, but if it has a choice between OHKOing Ilyana or OHKOing Mist, the enemy will go after Mist instead. And so on.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't understand the kind of double standard you people apply to tier lists. Ulki's a drain on our resources because he competes for a Demi band but his flier utility (which barely exists as is, that flier utility blows) is better than Largo's average offense when Largo comes in. Except Ulki needs the Demi Band for consistent flier utility and he needs the Demi band for offense which you guys keep saying HES NOT GETTING whereas at least Largo makes a decent attempt at not-all-that-bad-and-does-a-ton-of-damage offense whenever he comes in.

I don't really understand where Largo came into this, except for Largo/Janaff arguments earlier. Doesn't seem immediately relevant to Ulki's position, since Ulki is pretty clearly worse than Janaff (takes forever to transform without the Demi Band, worse combat with it on than Janaff has at base).

I'm inclined to go with Ulki's 5th-6th string flier utility>being an underleveled unmounted archer. Not sure about Elincia, she's around for less chapters and doesn't really have better combat, but she's a better rescuer, doesn't need the Demi Band and has staves.

Basically I don't mind giving the Demi Band to Ulki (or BEXP to Rolf), but it's hard to handwave Muarim/Mordecai/Ranulf wanting it, and he's not all that great with it regardless.

[Lord Raven]

I think a person above me said Largo > Ulki > Rolf earlier or something so I was bouncing off of that, I'm not sure what I was saying.

I'm inclined to go with Ulki's 5th-6th string flier utility>being an underleveled unmounted archer. Not sure about Elincia, she's around for less chapters and doesn't really have better combat, but she's a better rescuer, doesn't need the Demi Band and has staves.

She's also good with like... Fortify/Ashera Staff/pretty much any other staff out there. Way better than Ulki's halfassed flying utility.

Basically I don't mind giving the Demi Band to Ulki (or BEXP to Rolf), but it's hard to handwave Muarim/Mordecai/Ranulf wanting it, and he's not all that great with it regardless.

If anything I'd like to see that used as a tiebreaker rather than a determining argument... There needs to be way more concrete ways to debate tiers because the rules are pretty vague as is.

but when the use of one unit literally prevents us from using another

But the use of *any* unit prevents the use of another save something like Ike or anyone used in like the first 8 chapters...

[Radiant Dragon]

But the use of *any* unit prevents the use of another save something like Ike or anyone used in like the first 8 chapters...

No, they don't. Using Oscar does not prevent me from using any other unit. Using Rolf does not prevent us from nonetheless having a full, competent team that does not hugely suffer for it. However, using Ulki prevents us from using Muarim, Mordecai or Ranulf (Ranulf to a lesser extent), just as using them prevents us from using Ulki.

To ignore this cost just because Ulki is already below them on the Tier list would not result in an accurate placement for him. It costs more for Ulki to get the band because by giving it to him, we get a worse unit than we would by giving it to one of the others. That isn't to say that the others get it for no cost, because they do not. It's simply not as debilitating to need a resource you would put to best use anyway, in my opinion.

[Lord Raven]

You missed the point. Using Oscar does in fact help prevent you from using any other unit as does using Titania, Rolf, etc because they steal EXP from other units and they take a deployment slot that another unit could possibly use.

It costs more for Ulki to get the band because by giving it to him, we get a worse unit than we would by giving it to one of the others.

No, it costs exactly the same in terms of the game to give Ulki the band. It results in lesser efficiency but that's why you have Ulki below the characters on the tier list who use the Demi Band, and it's definitely a tie breaker between Janaff and Ulki.

[Radiant Dragon]

You missed the point. Using Oscar does in fact help prevent you from using any other unit as does using Titania, Rolf, etc because they steal EXP from other units and they take a deployment slot that another unit could possibly use.

Then it is you who are missing the point. There is nothing stopping us from making a team that includes Oscar and a group that includes any other units. There is something stopping us from making a team that includes Ulki and Muarim, Mordecai and/or Ranulf. Stop making strawman arguments.

No, it costs exactly the same in terms of the game to give Ulki the band. It results in lesser efficiency but that's why you have Ulki below the characters on the tier list who use the Demi Band, and it's definitely a tie breaker between Janaff and Ulki.

I remember having a similar argument with you before on the FE10 tier list, and don't care to repeat myself.

[Florete]

To put it another way: using Oscar does not mean I can't use Titania, or Kieran, or Astrid, or Jill, or anyone else. Using Ulki, however, does mean I cannot use Muarim, Mordecai, etc. (to their full effect, anyway). He is directly preventing the full use of another specific unit or two just by being used himself, if he takes the Demi Band. This isn't the same as "he's deployed, so someone else isn't taking his slot."

[Lord Raven]

I remember having a similar argument with you before on the FE10 tier list, and don't care to repeat myself.

Until tiers are defined better I don't think anyone should actually be arguing tiers. Are we arguing tiers of the most efficient playthrough in existence? Then why argue tiers at all? That's what I don't understand. If that were true then why isn't there a "used" and "unused" tier?

He is directly preventing the full use of another specific unit or two just by being used himself, if he takes the Demi Band. This isn't the same as "he's deployed, so someone else isn't taking his slot."

I don't understand why this is used against him in a tier list.

Also, why is Kieran > Boyd? And Jill > Oscar? The main reason I don't understand Jill > Oscar is because Marcia < Oscar. Jill is essentially a second Marcia once she comes in, and the only thing she really beats Marcia in is offense (not that large a lead considering Marcia is giving us low turns prior). Oscar has an availability lead over both of them.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Until tiers are defined better I don't think anyone should actually be arguing tiers. Are we arguing tiers of the most efficient playthrough in existence? Then why argue tiers at all? That's what I don't understand. If that were true then why isn't there a "used" and "unused" tier?

Because 'used' and 'not used' isn't interesting. This doesn't mean however, that bad units get a free pass when the cost of using them is the inability to use a different, better unit.

Also, why is Kieran > Boyd? And Jill > Oscar? The main reason I don't understand Jill > Oscar is because Marcia < Oscar. Jill is essentially a second Marcia once she comes in, and the only thing she really beats Marcia in is offense (not that large a lead considering Marcia is giving us low turns prior). Oscar has an availability lead over both of them.

I personally believe Marcia > Oscar, because flight is that important and we have enough good Paladins, but that's just me. Marcia isn't saving a lot of turns before Jill joins, though (neither is Oscar, admittedly).

Edited August 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

Because 'used' and 'not used' isn't interesting.

And instead we provide ourselves with a horribly inefficient way to determine tier lists.

This doesn't mean however, that bad units get a free pass when the cost of using them is the inability to use a different, better unit.

This argument is a double standard because it obviously does not apply to Karel and Harken in FE7. Nor does it apply to Wallace and Geitz.

I personally believe Marcia > Oscar, because flight is that important and we have enough good Paladins, but that's just me. Marcia isn't saving a lot of turns before Jill joins, though (neither is Oscar, admittedly).

"We have enough good Paladins" does nothing to dent Oscar's quality, especially considering we have Oscar as the best of them next to Titania (considering supports and everything). If anything, Oscar's doing more in his chapters than Marcia/Jill in theirs because Oscar's one of like four units in his chapters.

[Florete]

This argument is a double standard because it obviously does not apply to Karel and Harken in FE7. Nor does it apply to Wallace and Geitz.

Doesn't it, though? I do recall Karel being penalized for booting out Harken. It doesn't really matter for Wallace because he's just awful anyway.

[Radiant Dragon]

This argument is a double standard because it obviously does not apply to Karel and Harken in FE7. Nor does it apply to Wallace and Geitz.

Note that I said 'bad units', of which the only one who qualifies is Wallace, who is the bottom of Bottom Tier if I recall correctly.

"We have enough good Paladins" does nothing to dent Oscar's quality, especially considering we have Oscar as the best of them next to Titania (considering supports and everything).

The fact that Marcia being one of two fliers until Chapter 18 is more unique than Oscar being one of 5 Paladins (when Paladins aren't quite as valuable as fliers to begin with) is a legitimate point.

Note that I'm not really arguing for Marcia > Oscar, since I know I'm in the minority here.

If anything, Oscar's doing more in his chapters than Marcia/Jill in theirs because Oscar's one of like four units in his chapters.

These are also the chapters in which no one except Titania is saving many turns. If you want to get into max efficiency, he can save one turn in Chapter 1 and help save one turn in Chapter 7 before Marcia joins.

[Lord Raven]

Doesn't it, though? I do recall Karel being penalized for booting out Harken. It doesn't really matter for Wallace because he's just awful anyway.

I recall that happening very early in the days of tier lists, and years ago. I do not think it applies anymore, especially because I doubt Karel would be above Athos if that were truly the case.

Note that I said 'bad units', of which the only one who qualifies is Wallace, who is the bottom of Bottom Tier if I recall correctly.

Which is also retarded for reasons such as the fact that this particular unit (Ulki) is actually quite mediocre (as opposed to bad) when you give him the proper tools. Not that he'll be getting the proper tools as much as Janaff is getting fielded (lol) and therefore we should examine his position based on that instead of based on how much better someone else is with his utility. He's 'bad' instead of 'mediocre' because we don't give him the utility, therefore your argument doesn't even necessarily apply. But that is also beside the point. Saying "we can penalize units for being bad ALL WE WANT" is another double standard that's being applied in your argument.

The fact that Marcia being one of two fliers until Chapter 18 is more unique than Oscar being one of 5 Paladins (when Paladins aren't quite as valuable as fliers to begin with) is a legitimate point.

Erm... except Oscar is still the best Paladin instead of Titania and he's the one that requires the least BEXP by far.

I think my previous post got me the Marcia badge.

Note that I'm not really arguing for Marcia > Oscar, since I know I'm in the minority here.

I'd say Marcia > Oscar if Jill > Oscar. I'd stretch it and say Marcia > Jill considering the fact that a max efficiency run doesn't even recruit Jill (meaning that I doubt Jill saves that many turns) and Marcia's around for longer. In fact, Interceptor posted earlier that units get points for just existing and I don't know why the tier list isn't revamped to reflect that. Not that it should be based on availability, but if two units have the same utility but one has better availability then clearly that unit should beat the other unit (in this case, Marcia should be beating out Jill). Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

And instead we provide ourselves with a horribly inefficient way to determine tier lists.

This argument is a double standard because it obviously does not apply to Karel and Harken in FE7. Nor does it apply to Wallace and Geitz.

That's because that has to do with recruitment, not resource allocation. Karel blocking access to Harken doesn't actually have anything to do with his performance as a unit. Whereas the Demi Band (or Boots or Speedwings or whatever) are given after we recruit a unit, so they're factored into performance. Otherwise we could just give as many resources as possible to whatever unit we're looking at at the time, which I think is fairly silly.

Edited August 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Lord Raven]

Everyone given the same resources should still hypothetically end up in the same order an ideal tier list would be in. Otherwise it's silly to make a tier list based on a game where we're essentially tiering "used" and "unused" but with fancy words.

[-Cynthia-]

Everyone given the same resources should still hypothetically end up in the same order an ideal tier list would be in. Otherwise it's silly to make a tier list based on a game where we're essentially tiering "used" and "unused" but with fancy words.

People are considering Ulki's Demi Band performance here, but that doesn't mean the cost of it can just be ignored. If say, they were 3 Demi Bands available Ulki taking one wouldn't be an issue, but as it stands there's a fair amount of competition for it- which is reflected in his tier list position. Considering what he does with it, what he does without it, and what giving him involves giving up should all be factored in IMO.

Other points:

Marcia vs. Jill basically comes down to Jill having better Str and durability overall. Marcia does have some utility before Jill joins, but Jill's leads probably outweigh this in the long run? Jill's recruitment is a non-factor.

Kieran vs. Boyd Kieran basically does the same thing Boyd does when he shows up (have a lot of Atk with axes), except he's on a horse. Boyd has early game utility, but the extra Mov makes Kieran win almost every chapter after he shows up.

Marcia vs. Oscar I could maybe see Marcia over Oscar, flight is pretty important on a lot of maps. Oscar does have earlygame utility, supports, offense and durability though.

Edited August 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Lord Raven]

Marcia vs. Jill basically comes down to Jill having better Str and durability overall. Marcia does have some utility before Jill joins, but Jill's leads probably outweigh this in the long run?

Doubt that they could be that much better that it outweighs Marcia being able to 2-turn C12 and 3-turn C13 (although you need to add a couple turns to recruit Jill anyway, but...)

Jill's recruitment is a non-factor.

My purpose with that is that an efficiency run doesn't necessarily *need* Jill. Marcia is pretty much guaranteed to be in every efficiency run; Jill is not. Not to say Jill doesn't save turns in the same way Marcia does post-C12 (that's when she's recruited right? I get the chapters mixed up), but the fact is that Marcia is a flier before Jill is and the game doesn't *need* Jill. Of course, this doesn't hurt Jill's case so much as it helps Marcia's simply because of how long Marcia's flier utility exists in comparison to Jill's. But then again, I put a strangely flip flopping argument later in this post showing how Jill is better than Marcia once recruited... it's a very weird thing to rank a character as #2 in the game who isn't even necessarily recruited in a low-turn playthrough.

If say, they were 3 Demi Bands available Ulki taking one wouldn't be an issue, but as it stands there's a fair amount of competition for it- which is reflected in his tier list position.

His tier position is still lower than the "better" users of the Demi Band. That's how that works out.

Considering what he does with it, what he does without it, and what giving him involves giving up should all be factored in.

What he does with and without it should be factored in, but opportunity costs shouldn't affect his tier list. I view the tier list as "we're running an efficient playthrough, who is more worth taking the last slot?"... and clearly because of everyone's differing opinions as to how to rank a tier list it gets extremely odd trying to argue poor units because a better unit is always brought up to make them look worse. When in reality, that's not the way quality works.

Marcia vs. Oscar I could maybe see Marcia over Oscar, flight is pretty important on a lot of maps. Oscar does have earlygame utility, supports, offense and durability though.

C9 it's useful for getting Ike to the throne after recruiting Marcia....

C10, it's exactly the same as mounted utility. There's nothing to fly over.

C11, she helps with the 3-turn. If you want to recruit Jill, you have to wait on her to arrive so Oscar and Marcia are actually doing the exact same thing in this chapter...

C12, she _gets_ the 2-turn. She basically ends the chapter when Jill gets here.

C13, her offense is behind Oscar's but she has more mobility. Jill starts to catch up here. Both (all three) are pretty useful to end this a couple turns early by killing crows and routing the enemies though.

C14, she attempts to recruit Makalov. Jill and Oscar are doing almost the exact same thing here.

C15 is when Marcia/Jill are doing better (Jill is actually doing better here due to superior offense) because they help get to Muarim easier. I don't think Jill can kill Muarim all that easily though, but they're both infinitely more useful than Oscar.

C16 has them all matching utility.

C17 has Oscar on slightly less footing in Part 1, Part 2 all high-movement characters are needed for a quick clear and Jill/Marcia have got Part 4 in the bag.

C18 is a weird chapter that has absolutely no reliance on flier utility.

C19, I'm still not sure how useful flying utility can be here unless you want Jill/Marcia to get hit by a Wind spell from Naesala for the Knight Ring. I'm sure Oscar's doing the exact same thing to get to the boss.

C20 is when flying utility ends the chapter pretty early. Rescuing Ike/killing Shiharam.

C21, fliers can go over the water but Jill has a pretty good probability of getting sleeped, although Marcia helps out here.

C22, neither are useful except for a bunch of enemy kills. They can't shove priests/bishops.

C23, Marcia/Jill really shine because they can avoid pits. One of them gets the Full Guard though, meaning the other gets kinda mauled by Ballistae...

C24, definitely need fliers to get Ike to Arrive quickly.

C25 is where all mounted units save fliers have penalties... I could even see Janaff and Ulki having use here because of said penalties towards mounted units (they can't reach things for the kill in time) but it's the same old shtick where flying units get it done quickly

C26, they're around equal footing

C27, exactly the same performance for all 3

C28, Tanith ferries Ike and Jill/Marcia (assuming they can take the laguz) take on the boss

Endgame has them all on the same performance level.

On all these chapters, you can see that Jill > Marcia for after Jill joins (but not by very much at all) but you can also see that Marcia > Oscar as well. Oscar does have around 6-7 more chapters in early game (he isn't deployed in C3 and C4 if I'm recalling correctly? So it's 7) but he's not crucial to any of them necessarily. He is still better than Kieran, but if we're truly rating Oscar's early-game that much over flying utility then we may as well do the same with Boyd's earlygame simply due to the fact that Boyd's early/early-midgame is in fact much longer than Oscar's early/midgame advantage over Marcia.

I also don't know why Titania would be at the very Top either. Yes, she's your best unit for 11 chapters but Marcia/Jill's post-C13 far outweigh whatever Titania can contribute at that point. She does not deserve to be an entire tier above Jill and Marcia if we truly love flier utility that much.

There's also no way Boyd should be an entire tier above Ike. Ike's better C28/Endgame performance not counting, Ike also has better performance for C1/2, he exists for 3/4, and then 5 onwards they're pretty much tied. Ike has a more stable time doubling and therefore killing, as well as a durability lead (both with supports and in raw stats). Boyd wins by a little bit because his level doesn't cap as low (I predict Boyd's promotion to be around C15?) and the fact that he has 1~2 range, but Ike is beating him at the very endgame and in the first thirds. It's either Boyd be moved down a little bit or Ike be moved up so there's not a tier gap between them...

Wasn't an argument in favor of Mia > Zihark > Stefan posted? They're all more or less the same unit (Stefan is those two but with less avoid and luck, Zihark is a bit more durable but Mia exists longer) with different existing periods. Soren doesn't have business being in the middle of them. As for Soren's placement, I'm not sure where he should go, but I honestly don't think he should be above Tormod simply because Tormod's Celerity gives a +2 move lead over Soren, except Tormod can hold stronger tomes without being weighed down as much.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

My purpose with that is that an efficiency run doesn't necessarily *need* Jill. Marcia is pretty much guaranteed to be in every efficiency run; Jill is not. Not to say Jill doesn't save turns in the same way Marcia does post-C12 (that's when she's recruited right? I get the chapters mixed up), but the fact is that Marcia is a flier before Jill is and the game doesn't *need* Jill. Of course, this doesn't hurt Jill's case so much as it helps Marcia's simply because of how long Marcia's flier utility exists in comparison to Jill's. But then again, I put a strangely flip flopping argument later in this post showing how Jill is better than Marcia once recruited... it's a very weird thing to rank a character as #2 in the game who isn't even necessarily recruited in a low-turn playthrough.

Marcia's flying utility doesn't last that long in comparison to Jill really, and one could argue that after we recruit Jill we don't *need* Marcia either. If Jill didn't exist, Marcia would probably be in Top tier, but they both cut into each other's flying niche.

What he does with and without it should be factored in, but opportunity costs shouldn't affect his tier list. I view the tier list as "we're running an efficient playthrough, who is more worth taking the last slot?"... and clearly because of everyone's differing opinions as to how to rank a tier list it gets extremely odd trying to argue poor units because a better unit is always brought up to make them look worse. When in reality, that's not the way quality works.

"Punishing" units for taking a slot and taking resources are a bit different. What if on our efficient playthrough, we're using Muarim or Mordecai? Then we have a problem with Ulki in the last slot, because he's spending most maps untransformed (or we have another untransformed laguz).

On all these chapters, you can see that Jill > Marcia for after Jill joins (but not by very much at all) but you can also see that Marcia > Oscar as well. Oscar does have around 6-7 more chapters in early game (he isn't deployed in C3 and C4 if I'm recalling correctly? So it's 7) but he's not crucial to any of them necessarily. He is still better than Kieran, but if we're truly rating Oscar's early-game that much over flying utility then we may as well do the same with Boyd's earlygame simply due to the fact that Boyd's early/early-midgame is in fact much longer than Oscar's early/midgame advantage over Marcia.

Oscar is saving some turns though (C1, C2, and C6? at the very least I think). We can complete chapters like C11 without Marcia too, it's only a one turn difference. Though considering the huge differences she makes in chapters like C12 and C15 I could see her ahead.

Not sure where you're going with Boyd there, unless you're implying Boyd's earlygame is much better than Oscar's. Kieran only joins a chapter after Marcia does.

I also don't know why Titania would be at the very Top either. Yes, she's your best unit for 11 chapters but Marcia/Jill's post-C13 far outweigh whatever Titania can contribute at that point. She does not deserve to be an entire tier above Jill and Marcia if we truly love flier utility that much.

I disagree, mainly because the fliers end up sharing the benefits flier utility has to offer. We can replicate Marcia's performance with Jill once we shows up, then everything C18 and beyond is shared with Tanith (Haar joins in eventually too). No one can do what Titania does earlygame and like we see with Oscar, she's on equal footing in at least some of the midgame/lategame chapters.

There's also no way Boyd should be an entire tier above Ike. Ike's better C28/Endgame performance not counting, Ike also has better performance for C1/2, he exists for 3/4, and then 5 onwards they're pretty much tied.

I don't think Ike is significantly better for 1 and 2, sure his chances of doubling are better but he's not going to have enough Atk to ORKO most enemy types. Boyd's probably not ORKOing either (unless he gets lucky with Str/Spd), but any combination of Ike/Oscar/Boyd should KO enemy types so it's not much of a difference. Ike doesn't do anything to help clear C4 and I'm not sure he does much except talk to Marcia in C3.

Ike has a more stable time doubling and therefore killing,

It's difficult not to justify the C2 Speedwing on Boyd, since he's pretty clearly the best candidate for it. And while Ike does double more, Boyd has more Mt- which allows him to ORKO more things when he doubles.

as well as a durability lead (both with supports and in raw stats). Boyd wins by a little bit because his level doesn't cap as low (I predict Boyd's promotion to be around C15?) and the fact that he has 1~2 range, but Ike is beating him at the very endgame and in the first thirds. It's either Boyd be moved down a little bit or Ike be moved up so there's not a tier gap between them...

Boyd's durability isn't a problem in most cases and he gains some through supports anyway (his Atk lead also increases).I don't think Ike significantly wins the first third, though I'll concede the last two chapters. 1-2 range is a pretty big advantage in Boyd's favor, considering he can get enough Atk to ORKO from this range. It's roughly 1/3 (depends on map) of enemies Boyd can kill on the Enemy Phase that Ike really can't do anything about.

Wasn't an argument in favor of Mia > Zihark > Stefan posted? They're all more or less the same unit (Stefan is those two but with less avoid and luck, Zihark is a bit more durable but Mia exists longer) with different existing periods. Soren doesn't have business being in the middle of them. As for Soren's placement, I'm not sure where he should go, but I honestly don't think he should be above Tormod simply because Tormod's Celerity gives a +2 move lead over Soren, except Tormod can hold stronger tomes without being weighed down as much.

Stefan was moved above Mia actually (due to the Str difference really).

The Mia>Soren arguments weren't very convincing (his Spd issues seemed less problematic than her Atk issues). Tormod's strength isn't much of an advantage really, Soren's Spd is generally higher and forges can be used to make tome weight a non-issue. Celerity is an advantage, though since Tormod lacks Canto and durability I'm not sure it's enough to overcome Soren's availability lead.

[Kaoz]

Oscar is saving some turns though (C1, C2, and C6? at the very least I think). We can complete chapters like C11 without Marcia too, it's only a one turn difference. Though considering the huge differences she makes in chapters like C12 and C15 I could see her ahead.

Not sure where you're going with Boyd there, unless you're implying Boyd's earlygame is much better than Oscar's. Kieran only joins a chapter after Marcia does.

Oscar saves 1 turn in chapter 1, 1 turn in chapter 2 iirc (unlike chapter 1 this can be replicated by Boyd) and I'm not sure how feasible a 5 turn completion of chapter 6 is with only Titania (with Oscar, it's doable in 4 turns in any case)... he probably saves a turn or so in chapter 7 too, not sure.

Stefan was moved above Mia actually (due to the Str difference really).

The Mia>Soren arguments weren't very convincing (his Spd issues seemed less problematic than her Atk issues). Tormod's strength isn't much of an advantage really, Soren's Spd is generally higher and forges can be used to make tome weight a non-issue. Celerity is an advantage, though since Tormod lacks Canto and durability I'm not sure it's enough to overcome Soren's availability lead.

I still don't get why Soren > Mia but Zihark > Soren, they aren't all that different really, the differences are pretty negligible, even more so with all the BEXP we have.

[aku chi]

Well, somebody's itching to make a lot of changes.

Doubt that they could be that much better that it outweighs Marcia being able to 2-turn C12 and 3-turn C13 (although you need to add a couple turns to recruit Jill anyway, but...)

Jill has better offense and much better defense during the entirety of their shared existance. The only thing going for Marcia is higher Speed, which gives her an easier time doubling Muarim and Homasa in chapters 15 and 19. Marcia's only notable contribution before Jill joins is the potential to help 2-turn Chapter 12 - but only if we're willing to drop over 1000 Bexp into her, don't want to recruit Jill, and don't care about missing the recruitment Ravens' loot. 3-turning Chapter 11 (which is what I assume you meant to say) is actually not possible in Hard Mode (well, it requires Titania critting with a Hand Axe against the Knight on the Arrive square). Even if it were, it would require Titania, Lethe, and Mordecai's help; in excess of 1500 Bexp; and some luck with Marcia dodging. Plus it forfeits our opportunity to recruit Jill and only saves one turn over more conventional strategies.

My purpose with that is that an efficiency run doesn't necessarily *need* Jill. Marcia is pretty much guaranteed to be in every efficiency run; Jill is not. Not to say Jill doesn't save turns in the same way Marcia does post-C12 (that's when she's recruited right? I get the chapters mixed up), but the fact is that Marcia is a flier before Jill is and the game doesn't *need* Jill. Of course, this doesn't hurt Jill's case so much as it helps Marcia's simply because of how long Marcia's flier utility exists in comparison to Jill's. But then again, I put a strangely flip flopping argument later in this post showing how Jill is better than Marcia once recruited... it's a very weird thing to rank a character as #2 in the game who isn't even necessarily recruited in a low-turn playthrough.

Jill's recruitment costs are irrelevant when tiering Jill. I suggest you put it out of your mind.

C9 it's useful for getting Ike to the throne after recruiting Marcia....

I don't think Marcia scores any points for slightly mitigating the slowdown she imposes by being recruited.

C10, it's exactly the same as mounted utility. There's nothing to fly over.

And Oscar is a better combat unit.

C11, she helps with the 3-turn. If you want to recruit Jill, you have to wait on her to arrive so Oscar and Marcia are actually doing the exact same thing in this chapter...

The 3-turn clear is not realistic in Hard Mode (it requires an unavailable Hand Axe forge OR a Hand Axe crit). And Oscar is a better combat unit.

C12, she _gets_ the 2-turn. She basically ends the chapter when Jill gets here.

If she takes at least 1000 Bexp and you don't mind forfeitting Jill and some stat boosters. But yes, this can be a big contribution from Marcia.

C13, her offense is behind Oscar's but she has more mobility. Jill starts to catch up here. Both (all three) are pretty useful to end this a couple turns early by killing crows and routing the enemies though.

C14, she attempts to recruit Makalov. Jill and Oscar are doing almost the exact same thing here.

No argument.

C15 is when Marcia/Jill are doing better (Jill is actually doing better here due to superior offense) because they help get to Muarim easier. I don't think Jill can kill Muarim all that easily though, but they're both infinitely more useful than Oscar.

Eh, Marcia has an easier time doubling Muarim, so I might give the nod to her. Jill can tank and finish off Muarim on enemy phase, but then you risk some other laguz dying.

C16 has them all matching utility.

Except Marcia is the worst combat and Oscar requires the fewest resources to be promoted here.

C17 has Oscar on slightly less footing in Part 1, Part 2 all high-movement characters are needed for a quick clear and Jill/Marcia have got Part 4 in the bag.

Jill is better in 17-4 due to her superior combat and durability.

C18 is a weird chapter that has absolutely no reliance on flier utility.

So, the better combat units (not Marcia) have the edge.

C19, I'm still not sure how useful flying utility can be here unless you want Jill/Marcia to get hit by a Wind spell from Naesala for the Knight Ring. I'm sure Oscar's doing the exact same thing to get to the boss.

Marcia has the easiest time doubling Homasa of the three, but may need the Full Guard to avoid Ballista death.

C20 is when flying utility ends the chapter pretty early. Rescuing Ike/killing Shiharam.

But those Wyvern Lords are tough to ORKO and really pack a punch. Jill has the advantage over Marcia.

C21, fliers can go over the water but Jill has a pretty good probability of getting sleeped, although Marcia helps out here.

Having 2-3 fliers to ferry definitely helps.

C22, neither are useful except for a bunch of enemy kills. They can't shove priests/bishops.

Indeed.

C23, Marcia/Jill really shine because they can avoid pits. One of them gets the Full Guard though, meaning the other gets kinda mauled by Ballistae...

Except that Jill has enough durability to tank a Ballista hit or two, unlike Marcia. But this chapter can still be 4-turned without any fliers, so Oscar is far from worthless.

C24, definitely need fliers to get Ike to Arrive quickly.

You are mistaken. There is no terrain that impedes a Paladin from reaching the Arrive square (and only one chokepoint, which can be cleared on turn 1 with Reyson's help). In fact, the prevalance of Ballistae may encourage you to use a durable Paladin to solo this chapter. A Paladin like Oscar, perhaps.

C25 is where all mounted units save fliers have penalties... I could even see Janaff and Ulki having use here because of said penalties towards mounted units (they can't reach things for the kill in time) but it's the same old shtick where flying units get it done quickly.

Oscar can kill a couple enemies at the base of the chapter, but is otherwise quite worthless. Jill blows Marcia away here by actually being able to tank at the top of the mountain and ORKO the tougher enemies (Tigers).

C26, they're around equal footing

C27, exactly the same performance for all 3

Naturally, except Marcia is the inferior combat unit.

C28, Tanith ferries Ike and Jill/Marcia (assuming they can take the laguz) take on the boss

Jill has a much better chance of surviving the laguz than Marcia, but may need to worry about the Sleep Bishop. Also, this chapter can be more reliably 3-turned without any fliers, so Oscar isn't completely worthless.

Endgame has them all on the same performance level.

Except Marcia is dealing less damage.

On all these chapters, you can see that Jill > Marcia for after Jill joins (but not by very much at all) but you can also see that Marcia > Oscar as well. Oscar does have around 6-7 more chapters in early game (he isn't deployed in C3 and C4 if I'm recalling correctly? So it's 7) but he's not crucial to any of them necessarily. He is still better than Kieran, but if we're truly rating Oscar's early-game that much over flying utility then we may as well do the same with Boyd's earlygame simply due to the fact that Boyd's early/early-midgame is in fact much longer than Oscar's early/midgame advantage over Marcia.

Oscar is a better combat unit than Marcia, so he's better in every chapter that doesn't require flier utility. Marcia requires significantly more Bexp to be valuable: this cannot be ignored. Oscar has additional utility in chapters 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 where he is generally the second or third best unit, can save some turns even assuming optimal deployment, and is hugely helpful if Titania is not used. Oscar > Marcia.

[Anouleth]

and is hugely helpful if Titania is not used.

That's a big if!

Ultimately, Oscar is only really winning a handful of chapters. Marcia is significantly better in every map with terrain. So Oscar wins Chapters 1, 6, 7, 9, and Marcia wins chapters 12, 13, 15, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, and 28. Oscar is also slightly better in other chapters due to access to axes and better durability and needing less BEXP. I don't think there's a clear answer to which character is outright better.

[Radiant Dragon]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Oscar and Jill may have better Defense, Strength and Axe access over Marcia, but Marcia has no problem never dying and ORKOing things with Lance forges except for really lategame Generals, Wyvern Lords and Tigers. She is not an 'inferior' combat unit; She is equal with them.

Also, the cost of (most non-Rolf) people needing BEXP is so small due to the ridiculous amounts of BEXP we get in this game that it's almost a non-factor.

[aku chi]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Oscar and Jill may have better Defense, Strength and Axe access over Marcia, but Marcia has no problem never dying and ORKOing things with Lance forges except for really lategame Generals, Wyvern Lords and Tigers. She is not an 'inferior' combat unit; She is equal with them.

Also, the cost of (most non-Rolf) people needing BEXP is so small due to the ridiculous amounts of BEXP we get in this game that it's almost a non-factor.

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Marcia has serious durability concerns late-game. I should know considering I just played a draft with her (NM, even). Marcia's durability is a concern in chapters 23, 24, 25, 26, 28, and Endgame. A couple of these chapters (23 and 24) can be mitigated with the Full Guard, but Tanith would like that also (and Jill generally doesn't need it). Jill is a significantly better rescue-dropper than Marcia in chapters 25 and 28 (and NM Endgame, but that's probably irrelevant) due to her sizable durability advantage.

I need to be careful not to make such a big deal out of Marcia's Atk, because Oscar and Jill don't have large advantages in this department, especially if Marcia can keep some supports near her. But Oscar and Jill will deal 1-3 more damage per hit both a 1-range and at 1-2 range. Kieran's Atk advantage is a little larger (as is Makalov's until Marcia can get a Silver Lance forge and Makalov can't get a Silver Axe forge).

Marcia needing >1000 Bexp to dominate C12 is not a small cost. That might be 40% of the total Bexp available at this time. Bexp that every single unit can benefit from.

[aku chi]

That's a big if!

Ultimately, Oscar is only really winning a handful of chapters. Marcia is significantly better in every map with terrain. So Oscar wins Chapters 1, 6, 7, 9, and Marcia wins chapters 12, 13, 15, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, and 28. Oscar is also slightly better in other chapters due to access to axes and better durability and needing less BEXP. I don't think there's a clear answer to which character is outright better.

- Eh, I think we should consider playthroughs where Titania isn't used. I might be in a minority here.

- Did you forget Chapter 2?

- I don't think Marcia wins C13 - leaving the ship isn't needed to 7-turn and Oscar has better combat otherwise.

- But I would elaborate that Marcia wins 17-2 and 17-4. You might also count 17-1 as a win, but it's a much smaller win.

I can agree that there isn't an obvious winner to this comparison, but I find Oscar to be the more valuable unit, all things considered.

Edit: Oops, I meant to add this to my previous post.

Edited August 16, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

A couple of these chapters (23 and 24) can be mitigated with the Full Guard, but Tanith would like that also (and Jill generally doesn't need it).

I'm assuming that whichever non-Jill flier we're using to combat ballistae obviously has the Full Guard, whether it's Marcia or Tanith or a Hawk. We're shooting ourselves in the foot otherwise. Obviously this is a point against Marcia in a Jill vs. Marcia argument, but Oscar's not going to be flying anytime soon.

Jill is a significantly better rescue-dropper than Marcia in chapters 25 and 28 (and NM Endgame, but that's probably irrelevant) due to her sizable durability advantage.

We're not rescue-dropping in Chapter 25 (Marcia, Jill and Tanith are more than capable of handling the top themselves), and in Chapter 28 I feel it's best to use Rescue on our flier after Ike is dropped, otherwise enemies not killed by them will only impede Ike's path to the Seize.

So far all you've done is make arguments for why Jill > Marcia, not why Oscar > Marcia. Oscar will never be able to drop Ike over the trees in Chapter 28.

Marcia needing >1000 Bexp to dominate C12 is not a small cost. That might be 40% of the total Bexp available at this time. Bexp that every single unit can benefit from.

We're not giving Marcia enough BEXP to dominate Chapter 12, since it prevents us from recruiting Jill. Marcia getting enough EXP (through BEXP and CEXP) to promote in the Chapter 15 base however, is a pretty small cost, especially considering how she puts the BEXP to the best use here, along with Jill.

- Eh, I think we should consider playthroughs where Titania isn't used. I might be in a minority here.

Titania is used. While there is obviously more than one way to do an efficient playthrough, not using Titania is not one of them.

I can agree that there isn't an obvious winner to this comparison, but I find Oscar to be the more valuable unit, all things considered.

If Marcia can save more turns throughout the entire game than Oscar can, shouldn't she be higher than him? His slight combat leads aren't saving us any turns she can't, while her flight is definitely saving turns he can't.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty