FE9 Tier list v3

[Kaoz]

Actually, he doesn't do much of anything meaningful because Titania dominates. He saves us a turn in Chapter 1 but that's all (Chapter 6 can be 5 turned with just Ike and Titania, and he's not necessary in Chapter 7).

Actually chapter 6 can be 4 turned with Oscar (I'm 99% sure of it anyway).

I'm going to do an efficient run of this game later today to prove that BEXP is not an issue in this game. And I'll be using Rolf, Astrid and Tormod, among others. Your continued flaunting of 'vast amount of resources' simply doesn't stand up when it comes to how we actually play the game.

You can save yourself the trouble and just look at Anouleth's or mine, they are both logged here (though mine only until chapter 22 I admit) and we both used units that need a lot of BEXP iirc.

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually chapter 6 can be 4 turned with Oscar (I'm 99% sure of it anyway).

...Oh. Okay then, Oscar saves us 2 turns before Marcia joins. Still not exactly better than Marcia flying over everything later on.

You can save yourself the trouble and just look at Anouleth's or mine, they are both logged here (though mine only until chapter 22 I admit) and we both used units that need a lot of BEXP iirc.

Thanks, I'll do that. But I still need to prove it for myself (besides, I'll be doing things like going stealth in Chapter 10 and going pacifist in Chapters 15 and 22).

[Anouleth]

...Oh. Okay then, Oscar saves us 2 turns before Marcia joins. Still not exactly better than Marcia flying over everything later on.

Thanks, I'll do that. But I still need to prove it for myself (besides, I'll be doing things like going stealth in Chapter 10 and going pacifist in Chapters 15 and 22).

I did pacifism in Chapter 15 and 22. I think the pacifist strategies are pretty widely used. The Chapter 22 priests give awful experience and killing them doesn't speed up the chapter by an appreciable amount. The only items of consequence you forfeit by performing the 1 turn are the Bolting and the Spirit Dust, and even the Bolting can be acquired with a sufficiently capable Sage.

Chapter 10 stealth is time-consuming, probably isn't all that profitable in way of BEXP, and is just annoying to perform.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Anouleth

[Radiant Dragon]

Chapter 10 stealth is time-consuming, probably isn't all that profitable in way of BEXP, and is just annoying to perform.

This explains how to get stealth BEXP and max turn BEXP in Chapter 10, although I'm wondering if it's possible to do stealth faster while still recruiting Nephenee, Brom and Kieran.

[Lord Raven]

C10 Stealth can be done in 7 turns can't it? You don't really recruit Brom or Nephenee though...

EDIT:

5 turns. I think this is NM though, but with more units you can bust doors.

EDIT 2:

all treasure + units

And in NM I actually got less than 1100 CEXP in that chapter -- NM. In HM it'll be just about as much CEXP, probably a bit less.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, I'm planning to recruit everyone, so I'll be taking longer in Chapter 12, Chapter 16, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if stealth can be done faster, but I do want Kieran at the very least.

Edit: Breaking doors alerts the guards, so Volke has to be used for that.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

What about Door Keys? Don't we have a couple left over?

[Radiant Dragon]

There aren't any Doors before this chapter. You can steal them from the guards though, and trade them to other units.

[Florete]

I did pacifism in Chapter 15 and 22. I think the pacifist strategies are pretty widely used. The Chapter 22 priests give awful experience and killing them doesn't speed up the chapter by an appreciable amount. The only items of consequence you forfeit by performing the 1 turn are the Bolting and the Spirit Dust, and even the Bolting can be acquired with a sufficiently capable Sage.

Chapter 10 stealth is time-consuming, probably isn't all that profitable in way of BEXP, and is just annoying to perform.

I'm pretty sure the Bolting can be acquired if you just have a capable 9 Move unit with range.

[-Cynthia-]

Ok made some changes:

Marcia> Oscar

Boyd moved to top of High

mages/myrms reshuffled

Ulki>Rolf

[Lord Raven]

I'm inclined to agree with Soren > Tormod at this point, as well as Tormod > Myrmidons.

I'm not sure why Elincia is so low, though. Training Mist can be a pain in the ass, so she makes a very good Rescue staff user for the endgame (you have 3 uses, she's flying, and she's quite easily shoved by Muarim or something to get out of the way). Especially since this risky but efficient 2-turn clear of the endgame was just brought to my attention.

The problem at this point is how exactly to gauge her usefulness, who to put her above, and finally -- how do we address the fact that she exists in only 3 chapters?

Edited August 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

I'm not sure why Elincia is so low, though. Training Mist can be a pain in the ass, so she makes a very good Rescue staff user for the endgame (you have 3 uses, she's flying, and she's quite easily shoved by Muarim or something to get out of the way). Especially since this risky but efficient 2-turn clear of the endgame was just brought to my attention.

The problem at this point is how exactly to gauge her usefulness, who to put her above, and finally -- how do we address the fact that she exists in only 3 chapters?

I'd support Elincia > Shinon. Her 3 chapters are better than his early 3 1/3 chapters and I couldn't consider Shinon's lategame performance as anything but a tie-breaker for the narrowest of margins. Elincia offers some nearly unique utility as a high-mobility staff user for 3 chapters. She can be a real help with the Rescue staff, for which she is the second best candidate (or first best if we dumps tons of Bexp into her or don't train Mist). She can also help with Physic and Fortify. BTW, I would not describe the 2-turn Endgame strategy as efficient. It's certainly fast. But it's also risky and uncertain. It certainly shouldn't be assumed or anything silly like that. But Elincia can make great contributions in Endgame regardless: with Rescue, Fortify, Physic, or Hammerning Rescue if Mist is using it.

Shinon, meanwhile, competes to be the third, fourth, or fifth best unit in his early chapters, which isn't saying much when there are only 4-9 units in his chapters. He can't ORKO with perfect efficiency, he can't even weaken reliably due to his crit chance. He can tank a little, but not nearly as well as Titania or Gatrie - and he can be surrounded when doing so. He's a help, to be sure, but nothing we couldn't easily live without.

(FYI: I'm still not convinced that Marcia > Oscar. I preparing myself for another argument when I have the energy.)

[Lord Raven]

In my efficiency run, Marcia has essentially taken over Titania's role as turn-saving goddess. I might've gotten a little blessed with her stats but the fact is that she's been overkilling bosses anyway.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm inclined to agree with Soren > Tormod at this point, as well as Tormod > Myrmidons.

I could see the exact opposite: The Myrmidons over the Mages, with Tormod > Soren. Tormod's move and AS leads w/o forges are more important than Soren's availability and Magic leads, in my opinion. Also, Tormod > Stefan doesn't make much sense.

[Lord Raven]

Then what of Soren's level lead? Soren has an enormous amount of chapters to get that much better than Tormod. In fact, in my efficiency run (back when my characters adhered to their averages, although to be fair Soren had the Mage Band which is why he capped Magic) Soren had such a massive level lead over tormod that he almost wasn't really worth using... the level lead is a great factor.

As for the Mages > Myrmidons, I don't think it makes sense to begin with because the Myrmidons have average output in most things (they require more than average resources). Mages at least have better than average offensive output with just about average resources (Tormod may require a lot more than average, but he's not unlike Mia in that sense). They also have utility once they get towards the end of the game.

[Kaoz]

Then what of Soren's level lead? Soren has an enormous amount of chapters to get that much better than Tormod. In fact, in my efficiency run (back when my characters adhered to their averages, although to be fair Soren had the Mage Band which is why he capped Magic) Soren had such a massive level lead over tormod that he almost wasn't really worth using... the level lead is a great factor.

Well, how much BEXP did you give Soren and how much did he contribute in the chapters he had over Tormod?

[Lord Raven]

I mainly finished his levels so I think it was a ~300 BEXP investment for being around L14-15 by the time Tormod joined. Soren has MASSIVE base AS, and he was very good at killing random things early on since he gained ~40-50 EXP every chapter. Tormod's main use in my run was to kill Shiharam (who had 1 HP left after a Killer Lance crit/double) and clear out a Wyvern in Jills way to arrive, which Callil can do and Soren can do provided Soren uses two Arms Scrolls for Fire tomes.

[aku chi]

Also, Tormod > Stefan doesn't make much sense.

Why? Tormod has a little more movement, better 1-2 range combat, siege utility, and some staff utility. Stefan has slightly better durability and 1-range offense. His only notable advantage is not needing anywhere close to the amount of resources that Tormod needs. I certainly see it as a close contest (mostly due to the Bexp that Tormod needs to be in any way worthwhile).

I can't seem to intuitively make sense out of Sages vs. Swordmasters, so I wouldn't be too miffed if their relative positions change a little. I do lean towards favoring the Sages due to the uniqueness of siege utility (they also have some staff utility).

[-Cynthia-]

Elincia is in Low because she only has 3 chapters and staves just aren't very useful in PoR, not to mention Mist (or even Rhys) can likely duplicate her performance except for possibly Endgame. Though I suppose you could turn that around and say Elincia duplicates an Upper Mid unit for 3 chapters.

Shinon being third or fourth best is somewhat irrelevant because he's forced anyway. His chip is substantial and this is a point in the game where everyone isn't ORKOing all the time (often only Titania). He's not amazing, but it is helpful and we can't replace him with someone else (because no else exists to take his place). He doesn't get any credit upon returning though, horrible bases and bowlock make him worse than Lucia/Bastian really.

Edited August 21, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Lord Raven]

Staves aren't for healing utility. Rescuing Reyson or Ike's carrier has a bunch of benefits, especially since she can do it in 3 chapters and save a turn in each of them. It's not like Mist or Rhys are used in every single playthrough, either.

[Radiant Dragon]

Soren has MASSIVE base AS

7 is not 'MASSIVE' AS; It doubles Knights and weighed down Soldiers, and that's about it. Don't forget the fact that he 4 or 5HKO's everything when he joins, and he always has bad move, so it gets harder to find ways for him to contribute later on. Sure siege tomes exist, but he's awful with them (Calill and Tormod can actually have a good chance at doubling with them if necessary).

and he was very good at killing random things early on since he gained ~40-50 EXP every chapter.

He has the worst offense on the team early on (well, 1-2 range I suppose). He's only better against than Ike against Lance users.

Tormod's main use in my run was to kill Shiharam (who had 1 HP left after a Killer Lance crit/double) and clear out a Wyvern in Jills way to arrive, which Callil can do and Soren can do provided Soren uses two Arms Scrolls for Fire tomes.

I'd rather just use Calill than feed Soren all of our Arms Scrolls.

As for Stefan vs. Tormod, Tormod may be more versatile, but Stefan kills everything he faces for a very long time with no resources (except a forge for some tougher enemies), while Tormod can't claim to be as awesome right out of the box.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

7 is not 'MASSIVE' AS; It doubles Knights and weighed down Soldiers, and that's about it. Don't forget the fact that he 4 or 5HKO's everything when he joins, and he always has bad move, so it gets harder to find ways for him to contribute later on. Sure siege tomes exist, but he's awful with them (Calill and Tormod can actually have a good chance at doubling with them if necessary).

This is not entirely correct.

7 isn't massive sorry for exaggerating, but with 2 level ups Soren is able to double archers (the ones weighed down by Steel Bows) as well. But the thing is that his offense is almost on par with Boyd and Ike's when he's around... *almost* with an 8% adept activation rate. He'll also definitely gain EXP in the defend map and he'll be able to get to Level 5 quite easily on that Escape map which gives him ~9 AS and 9 (10?) Atk. It's not enough to 1 round but frankly nobody outside of Titania is one rounding anyway. He helps get rid of Armors that barely take damage from anything but Tits and the Regal Sword, and he can also double some Myrmidons if he needs to.

He eventually 3HKOs and he combines with other units for KOs anyway (since nobody can 2HKO except Tits).

He has the worst offense on the team early on (well, 1-2 range I suppose). He's only better against than Ike against Lance users.

False. His offense is more or less on par with everyone else's, but his Defense is pretty terrible so I can agree there... he's better than most things against Ike anyway because he doesn't necessarily fear a counter attack.

I'd rather just use Calill than feed Soren all of our Arms Scrolls.

That is fine but a 20/1 Soren has *slightly* better damage output than a 20/6 Callil. 20/1 Soren also has a B Ike at this point to add 1 to his Atk, and there are enough Arms Scrolls that you can feed Soren a few (in fact, he'll probably only need one if you've been using Fire tomes, and even then that may be iffy because his ranks get boosted to D when he promotes anyway so he'll only need one). Mage Band increases the gap too, by another 2 points.

As for Stefan vs. Tormod, Tormod may be more versatile, but Stefan kills everything he faces for a very long time with no resources (except a forge for some tougher enemies), while Tormod can't claim to be as awesome right out of the box.

Stefan has less move than Tormod once Tormod promotes, and they're on equal footing otherwise. Not counting the fact that Stefan has otherwise poor durability at a certain point and lacks the option to launch (good) attacks from 2-range, which Tormod has. On top of Siege tomes. Stefan may join as one of the best, but he doesn't gain much experience and ends up pretty fail. Especially considering his lack of supports. Tormod at least has a quick support with Reyson for +3 Atk, as well as Callil for a +5 total Atk. Stefan has Soren which gives him... +1 Atk, +8 Evade, +a shitload of hit that is quite irrelevant.

Tormod can at least keep up with Pallies and can launch Meteors right from join time.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Shadow Mir]

That is fine but a 20/1 Soren has *slightly* better damage output than a 20/6 Callil. 20/1 Soren also has a B Ike at this point to add 1 to his Atk, and there are enough Arms Scrolls that you can feed Soren a few (in fact, he'll probably only need one if you've been using Fire tomes, and even then that may be iffy because his ranks get boosted to D when he promotes anyway so he'll only need one). Mage Band increases the gap too, by another 2 points.

You do realize there are only 2 arms scrolls, right?

[Lord Raven]

There's three but we can afford to give Soren one. What are we doing with the rest, exactly?

[Shadow Mir]

There's three but we can afford to give Soren one. What are we doing with the rest, exactly?

And one of those is Maniac exclusive.