FE4 Gen 2 list

[Mekkah]

Out of all the worthwhile pairings Tinny [levin] is the only one without pursuit (that fights), does that not mean that she makes the best candidate for the pursuit ring

One of the better ones, but she's not without competition. Holyn!Patty gets a lot of out of Pursuit Ring. Hell, any Patty you want to do better in field combat does. Also, Leaf's performance skyrockets with it. He doesn't just double his guaranteed battle output, but he also gets two instead of one chance to trigger Critical or Continue (just like Tinny). It's also key to any screwy Delmud or Lester pairings (the female in those is salvageable by staves, but the male has to fight), and Johan can use it to quadruple instead of double negative AS enemies (he has 0 base AS with Hero Axe, and 50% spd growth)

Of course, if you assume only good pairings are made, or good ones are much much more likely, then some of these don't really matter.

[Salad Utensil]

One of the better ones, but she's not without competition. Holyn!Patty gets a lot of out of Pursuit Ring. Hell, any Patty you want to do better in field combat does. Also, Leaf's performance skyrockets with it. He doesn't just double his guaranteed battle output, but he also gets two instead of one chance to trigger Critical or Continue (just like Tinny). It's also key to any screwy Delmud or Lester pairings (the female in those is salvageable by staves, but the male has to fight), and Johan can use it to quadruple instead of double negative AS enemies (he has 0 base AS with Hero Axe, and 50% spd growth)

Of course, if you assume only good pairings are made, or good ones are much much more likely, then some of these don't really matter.

Personally I tailor my playthroughs so that the ring is always used. When I use Jamka with Aideen, the ring goes to Lester, Tailto with Levn the ring goes to Tinny, but since this list has its own ideas of 'good' pairings...

Heres why I think Tinny is actually the best to get pursuit ring: Patty with Holyn as a Dad has to have Moonlight activate at least once along with pursuit unless fighting a mage to ORKO. Leaf can use the other hero sword for just 2 chapters (and elite ring for the arena) and can still ORKO many things because his strength gets high with Fin's conversation (and maybe a power ring). Lastly, Tinny hits on resistence, with El wind or even just wind, she can usually ORKO IF she doubles (with pursuit ring), activates continue, criticals, activates wrath. Meaning Leaf is easy to improve, Patty can't one round without some luck, and Tinny will one round if she doubles. Therefore, IMO in efficiency terms she improves the most). However, if the replacements are considered...

Edited October 1, 2009 by Brighton

[Blademaster!]

Out of all the worthwhile pairings Tinny [levin] is the only one without pursuit (that fights), does that not mean that she makes the best candidate for the pursuit ring since it was apparently fiated by someone that Celice should get the elite ring (not that I disagree with, since it's a must for rank runs)? I'm not really arguing for it since everyone will shoot me down or something, but if she does, she should go up a lot.

Um...also shouldn't Corple be split up into different Corples? If Corple [Claude] is slightly above the others, shouldn't Corple [Levn] be higher still? If anyone is considering my proposal than I would see it like this:

Corple [Levn]

Corple [Claude]

Sharlow

Corple [Lex]

Corple [Azel]

For Leen:

Leen [Lex]

Leen [Arden]

Leen [everyone else]

Whatever, just some thoughts to consider...

Levin!Corple shouldn't be above Claude!Corple, nor should be listed since it essentially gets rid of your use of one holy weapon. Levin!Corple is good, but also isn't. He probably won't promote until mid chp 10, and without Pursuit(you could always give him the pursuit ring) he won't always one round enemies, which can occasionally screw you over in the final chapter. The benefit of using Claude!Corple is that you don't need to promote him/likely won't be using him in battle. Corple really is just a healer, and the abillity to use the Valkyrie staff right away is better than having to gain a tedious 19 levels to use Holsety.

As for the pursuit ring arguments, I think that Leaf needs it the most/makes the most use out of it. After he promotes, Arthur should get it next (if Levin!Arthur) so that you won't have to worry about him not killing enemies due a lack of pursuit and not enough magic to always OHKO, then Jamaka!Lester is most likely to get it next, because then he can use the killer bow to make up for his lackluster skill and give the Hero Bow to Leaf/Johalva/Hannibal.

[Dat Nick]

Tiering Corple is pointless because every non Claude version of Corple that exists is inferior to Sharlow in at least one way.

And Holsety!Corple is a freaking waste. Yeah, I'm totally going to staff abuse Corple who gets no Staff inheritance so he can MAYBE do what half my army is doing anyway, ORKOing stuff and not dying. He's not even making good use of it due to High Priest's low move and Speed cap, even if we do ignore his massive availability disadvantage. It's a gimmick. That's all.

Anyway, I'll look at LexLakche vs NoishLakche later, but I do just want to add from earlier that even though Noish has a higher chance of skill activation it doesn't mean all that much when Lakche can be killing without needing a skill activation, and the durability leads ARE pretty notable. I'm not necessarily saying they still need to be a tier up on the NoishLakche versions, those are just my initial thoughts on the issue.

[Renall]

Yeah well, Corple [Levin] is about as good with staves and has Holsety after promotion. None of the other Corples can claim that, right?

[Salad Utensil]

Levin!Corple shouldn't be above Claude!Corple, nor should be listed since it essentially gets rid of your use of one holy weapon. Levin!Corple is good, but also isn't. He probably won't promote until mid chp 10, and without Pursuit(you could always give him the pursuit ring) he won't always one round enemies, which can occasionally screw you over in the final chapter. The benefit of using Claude!Corple is that you don't need to promote him/likely won't be using him in battle. Corple really is just a healer, and the abillity to use the Valkyrie staff right away is better than having to gain a tedious 19 levels to use Holsety.

As for the pursuit ring arguments, I think that Leaf needs it the most/makes the most use out of it. After he promotes, Arthur should get it next (if Levin!Arthur) so that you won't have to worry about him not killing enemies due a lack of pursuit and not enough magic to always OHKO, then Jamaka!Lester is most likely to get it next, because then he can use the killer bow to make up for his lackluster skill and give the Hero Bow to Leaf/Johalva/Hannibal.

So many unwarrented claims... >_>

By saying that Corple [Levn] is not his best pairing because it means someone else can't get Levn as a dad is a very bad argument. Levn makes Corple at his best because he has access to good weapon and therefore useful. I was under the impression that Corple could use Holsety (because he can). Pretending Corple [Levn] doesn't exist does not mean he really doesn't exist, he is always better than not pairing Levn at all. The assumption everyone plays every game the exact same is very flawed. 2 you are going to have to prove that Corple doesn't one round with Holsety. After promotion he almost reaches 25 magic, Holsety has 30 might and with a magic ring Corple reachs 60 raw attack. He has a 63% to activate continue and 30% chance for critical and all those can be boistered with a stat ring. Meaning if raw might isn't enough, one of his skill is reliable enough. Your second statement about how Corple will screw you over in the final chapter is rediculous as well, you do have Holsety, which is definity more useful than not having Holsety. Specify why you are screwed over. This game is not even remotely deficult to beat without Holsety, other tactics work too. I disagree with your third statement defining Corple as only a healer and not use him in battle, that is completely your opinion not fact.

Why is it Leaf makes the most use of it? Give me a warrent as too why. Its not like you can't give it to Tinny (or Corple if you're into that stuff) after he's done with it too. A hero sword lets Leaf always double and is much more affordable (unless you want Patty to lose her bank account), Daim thunder unfortunately doesn't exist in this game. Second claim: Arthur has wrath, critical, and continue, Holsety has 30 might and he can reach up to 60 raw attack with a magic ring, while it is possible nothing activates, the fact that Tinny (pursuit)+Arthur (no pursuitand holsety)> Tinny (without holsety and pursuit) + Arthur (Pursuit+holsety). Arthur needing pursuit is situational, whereas Tinny getting pursuit improves the whole team as now there are 2 competant mages instead of one before Sety even appears. Third claim:Lester [Jamka] isn't tiered on this list since apparently its unpopular :( .

[Dat Nick]

Yeah well, Corple [Levin] is about as good with staves and has Holsety after promotion. None of the other Corples can claim that, right?

None of them can, but he still only gets there for Final at BEST [and he doesn't get the easy EXP staves like say Reserve either which sucks ass] and his move makes it difficult to utilize efficiently as opposed to Sharlow who just berserks the strongest foe he can and causes havoc all over the place without anybody even being able to reach him. Sharlow>LevinCorple, thus Corple[Anybody not named Claude] being below Sharlow has no reason to change because it's still true, any Corple is worse than Sharlow unless that Corple is fathered by Claude.

Hell, he doesn't even have Elite and he has no way of getting combat, so have fun getting him a decent staff to level with for all of one chapter until Final rolls in.

Hell, speaking of Reserve/Valkyrie, I honestly think just those two alone for a chapter of access is better than just Holsety in Final, and maybe not even being promoted by then still makes it a waste. Corple's move doesn't get in the way of him using Reserve, but it does get in the way of his combat power, which fails to even stand out that much by Endgame.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

That's not entirely true on the Reserve deal. I know there is an area of effect to that, because I know I've been using it and not healed people in a certain range.

[Renall]

Yes but having Holsety for one chapter is still a damn sight more impressive than having Holsety for zero chapters, especially since his effectiveness is essentially changed almost not at all. It's freaking Holsety. The only reason it sounds absurd is because there's no way in hell you wouldn't give it to Sety or Arthur. But considering Corple by himself and independent of other characters, I can't see how he isn't vastly better than any Corple other than maybe [Claude].

[Paperblade]

well

10 LakcheLex: 41 HP, 14 str, 19 skill, 17 AS, 12 def

5 LakcheNoish: 34 HP, 12 str, 16 skill, 15 AS, 9 def

Maybe it isn't, after all, but there's certainly a case. There's also getting the promo bonuses sooner, to increase those leads.

Don't forget to mention how Lakche [Lex] only has 19% Meteor Sword to work with, ~34% chance of proc'ing on a double. Lakche [Noish] is looking at more like ~48% at this point. Also, every single version of the kids can afford the Elite Ring for the arena. Combine that with the EXP curve and I don't think they grow exactly twice as fast.

You get 17500 gold for clearing the arena, and buying then selling the Elite Ring is a loss of 20k (for a net loss of 2500), on top of whatever you're spending to repair and plus the person who would normally be getting the Elite Ring probably can't even afford to buy it back since it's also a 20k loss for THEM, on top of their weapon repairs, and this unit isn't necessarily an arena godstomping character, which means that shifting Elite around limits who can use the Elite Ring on top of being a massive gold sink. Buying and selling the Elite Ring just for the Arena every chapter simply isn't feasible unless your whole team somehow has Bargain or if we're giving them all the villages, which is ridiculous when there are tons of units who can't godstomp the Arena without breaking a sweat that also need money, such as staff users.

Also, list of potential Sword users

Celice, Delmud, Patty, Lakche, Skasaha, Oifaye, Leaf.

Plus people who have Holy weapons (Shanan, Ares, Altenna), outright suck (Hannibal), or has better things to do (Nanna, Fee, Arthur, Tinny, Laylea)

Leaf has the Light Sword before promoting and Hero Axe/Staves/etc. after he promotes.

Celice has his 50 kill Silver Sword.

Patty has the Hero Sword.

Oifaye has the Iron Cutter for armors and Lances for everything else, and can pick up the Wing Clipper for wyvern hordes (or the sword kids can use the Iron Cutter/Wing Clipper, they'll one round with them too, idc).

Which still leaves us the Silver Blade, and another Hero and Silver Sword.

With either the Silver Blade or Hero Sword, the twins one round everything anyway, and at least one of them is getting one, since Delmud has no use for so many god swords. Anyone with a Silver Sword + Power Ring is gonna be one rounding (twins can also use the Steel Blade for +2 might over the Silver Sword). Considering Hero Bow Lester one rounds, Hero Lance Fin one rounds (until he stops doubling, but then the Speed Ring would be more desirable), base Shanan one rounds, lolares one rounds, Arrowlad one rounds with 10 base Strength thanks to lolchival, and most others use magic (Levin!Fee godstomps with the Wind Sword, Claude!Fee sucks at combat even with the Power Ring, and physical Fees should be fine with Steel or Hero or something).

Which means there's a damn good chance that the kids are one rounding anyway (on top of crap like mages that they 2HKO with Iron), at which point the extra Spd/Lck from leveling faster as well as Lex's outright superior Defense growth comes into play, as well as the fact that no Charge means their Spd isn't potentially screwing them whenever a mage decides to attack them (assuming Charge even activates when you can't counter?...)

Edited October 2, 2009 by Paperblade

[Mekkah]

as well as the fact that no Charge means their Spd isn't potentially screwing them whenever a mage decides to attack them (assuming Charge even activates when you can't counter?...)

Charge doesn't activate unless the PC can attack that battle, I've tested this.

Leaf has the Light Sword before promoting and Hero Axe/Staves/etc. after he promotes.

Celice has his 50 kill Silver Sword.

Patty has the Hero Sword.

Oifaye has the Iron Cutter for armors and Lances for everything else, and can pick up the Wing Clipper for wyvern hordes (or the sword kids can use the Iron Cutter/Wing Clipper, they'll one round with them too, idc).

Eh, I don't see why these swords can't just get switched around however you want them (except for Patty since she has B swords)...points stand though I guess.

[Dat Nick]

That's not entirely true on the Reserve deal. I know there is an area of effect to that, because I know I've been using it and not healed people in a certain range.

It's still easier to work with than Holsety's 1-2 range.

It's freaking Holsety. The only reason it sounds absurd is because there's no way in hell you wouldn't give it to Sety or Arthur. But considering Corple by himself and independent of other characters, I can't see how he isn't vastly better than any Corple other than maybe [Claude].

In this case you really can't ignore the opportunity cost of taking Holsety, because we could have had it for either the whole game or half the game instead of just one chapter through, and we don't have it at all until Endgame which is a very negative point for Levin!Corple, who even WHEN levelled to promotion is still fairly frail [His speed cap will hinder his avoid notably] Just withholding it for that long is enough on it's own to not move Levin Corple below Sharlow which would be silly anyway because it still means that every Corple not named Claude is worse than Sharlow, do remember the fact that absolutely nothing guarantees Corple will be level 20 by Final, or even after Final.

Heck, the situation is even vastly different. Swordkids would PREFER Lex as their father over Noish, but if Lex is banging somebody else they'll live throughout the game with Noish. Levin!Corple can only HOPE to be good endgame after he's screwed Sety AND Arthur over by much more notable amounts than Swordkids, and I'm still not convinced that he'll reach his promotion due to funding issues and no staff inheritance.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Blademaster!]

Why is it Leaf makes the most use of it? Give me a warrent as too why. Its not like you can't give it to Tinny (or Corple if you're into that stuff) after he's done with it too. A hero sword lets Leaf always double and is much more affordable (unless you want Patty to lose her bank account), Daim thunder unfortunately doesn't exist in this game. Second claim: Arthur has wrath, critical, and continue, Holsety has 30 might and he can reach up to 60 raw attack with a magic ring, while it is possible nothing activates, the fact that Tinny (pursuit)+Arthur (no pursuitand holsety)> Tinny (without holsety and pursuit) + Arthur (Pursuit+holsety). Arthur needing pursuit is situational, whereas Tinny getting pursuit improves the whole team as now there are 2 competant mages instead of one before Sety even appears. Third claim:Lester [Jamka] isn't tiered on this list since apparently its unpopular :( .

Leaf makes the most use of it because it allows him to deal more damage before he promotes and allows him to promote faster. Sword kids can use magic swords (enemies already have poor res, they have astra, they have good skill, it gives them ranged attacks for enemy phases and ranged attacks in general) so they won't need the hero sword. Celice or Delmud would like the Hero sword/50 kill silver sword since it gives them either critical or continue. Oifaye can use effective weapons, Javelin, and Lances. Patty can use the other hero sword if paired with Holyn, because without it she's likely to never really level ever since she won't kill anything. This leaves Leaf without a weapon to really make him useful before he promotes, and the pursuit ring makes up for that.

As for Arthur!Levin + pursuit being situational, its a situation that seems to happen alot, along with the fact it has other uses. Generals/Barons are the most annoying enemies in the game to fight for one reason: Big shield. It activates alot for a skill with a max of a 30% activation rate. If Big shield activates and Arthur doesn't get critical to activate, he won't kill them if he doesn't have pursuit. Additionally, pusuit allows Arthur to still kill using other non holyweapons which can be a good thing considering how exspensive holy weapons are (personally, I always give my holyweapon users 2 weapons, a holy weapon and one other good weapon that will still allows them to kill). And failing to one round enemies at times can end up leading to someone dying, especially in the case of not one rounding an enemy like Burian (Not so much Ishtar because she retreats if you kill enough enemies, though Burian may also retreat, but I'm not sure).

Also, I didn't notice that Lester!Jamuka wasn't on the list. After Midir, Jamuka is his next best father, possibly Beowolf. I can see why it wouldn't be because it means he gets no pusuit and has poor skl, a crutial stat for archers.

[Renall]

In this case you really can't ignore the opportunity cost of taking Holsety, because we could have had it for either the whole game or half the game instead of just one chapter through, and we don't have it at all until Endgame which is a very negative point for Levin!Corple, who even WHEN levelled to promotion is still fairly frail [His speed cap will hinder his avoid notably] Just withholding it for that long is enough on it's own to not move Levin Corple below Sharlow which would be silly anyway because it still means that every Corple not named Claude is worse than Sharlow, do remember the fact that absolutely nothing guarantees Corple will be level 20 by Final, or even after Final.

That isn't how we tier. FE7 Karel isn't auto-bottom because we miss Harken, Cyas isn't auto-bottom because we miss Sety, Corple isn't worse off for having Holsety than not having Holsety just because Sety or Arthur could have taken it. You're actually proposing we punish him for having Holsety, even if it's only for one chapter (or hell, even if it's just for part of one chapter). That's mental.

[Mekkah]

In this case you really can't ignore the opportunity cost of taking Holsety

If you're going to apply opportunity cost in this case, apply it for all pairings. Personally, I don't want that.

[Renall]

In this case you really can't ignore the opportunity cost of taking Holsety

If you're going to apply opportunity cost in this case, apply it for all pairings. Personally, I don't want that.

And it's looking at it the wrong way anyway. Corple getting Holsety does mean other people don't get Holsety, but that doesn't imply it's a worst-case scenario or anything. We could pair Levin with anyone but Sylvia/Tiltyu/Fury, wasting Holsety, or not pair Levin at all. In that case nobody'd get it. Certainly it's better on Corple than no one.

[Dat Nick]

hat isn't how we tier. FE7 Karel isn't auto-bottom because we miss Harken, Cyas isn't auto-bottom because we miss Sety, Corple isn't worse off for having Holsety than not having Holsety just because Sety or Arthur could have taken it. You're actually proposing we punish him for having Holsety, even if it's only for one chapter (or hell, even if it's just for part of one chapter). That's mental.

Just because they aren't auto-bottom does not mean the punishments aren't applied. Furthermore, the opportunity cost for the former two doesn't even compare to the last one tbh. I'm not prepared to brush off extreme things like that. Minor things like "Oh noes, Faval has to be slightly less rapage if LexxAyra happens? LEX SWORDKIDS FOR BOTTOM TIER" is silly.

And okay, none of this explains how Corple is actually getting to level 20 without staff abuse by Final.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

Just because they aren't auto-bottom does not mean the punishments aren't applied. Furthermore, the opportunity cost for the former two doesn't even compare to the last one tbh. I'm not prepared to brush off extreme things like that. Minor things like "Oh noes, Faval has to be slightly less rapage if LexxAyra happens? LEX SWORDKIDS FOR BOTTOM TIER" is silly.

And okay, none of this explains how Corple is actually getting to level 20 without staff abuse by Final.

You're punishing Corple for existing. I'm not seeing him being hated on for taking the reserve staff and valkyrie staff away from Sety. Adjusting the tier list for your arbitrary definition of 'opportunity cost' is definitely not the point of a tier list. What you are doing is literarily telling people that you HAVE to pair Levn with Fury or Tailto or they just will fail in achieving efficiency, but what if a player chooses to give Holsety to Corple? In this PT, Holsety! Arthur and Sety don't exist. The main issue is that Harken doesn't exist if Karel does, but Everyone exists in Gen 2.

I think the only way to promote priests is to let them use staves yes? Corple can easily reach level 30 by the finale, The EXP ranks in this game is not difficult at all. Restore and Warp are rather cheap and both give 60Exp a shot. Libro gives 35 and mend gives 20. Patty is easily promoted by now. How is he not reaching level 30?

more on pursuit ring to Tinny [Levn] later....

[Blademaster!]

Just because they aren't auto-bottom does not mean the punishments aren't applied. Furthermore, the opportunity cost for the former two doesn't even compare to the last one tbh. I'm not prepared to brush off extreme things like that. Minor things like "Oh noes, Faval has to be slightly less rapage if LexxAyra happens? LEX SWORDKIDS FOR BOTTOM TIER" is silly.

And okay, none of this explains how Corple is actually getting to level 20 without staff abuse by Final.

You're punishing Corple for existing. I'm not seeing him being hated on for taking the reserve staff and valkyrie staff away from Sety. Adjusting the tier list for your arbitrary definition of 'opportunity cost' is definitely not the point of a tier list. What you are doing is literarily telling people that you HAVE to pair Levn with Fury or Tailto or they just will fail in achieving efficiency, but what if a player chooses to give Holsety to Corple? In this PT, Holsety! Arthur and Sety don't exist. The main issue is that Harken doesn't exist if Karel does, but Everyone exists in Gen 2.

I think the only way to promote priests is to let them use staves yes? Corple can easily reach level 30 by the finale, The EXP ranks in this game is not difficult at all. Restore and Warp are rather cheap and both give 60Exp a shot. Libro gives 35 and mend gives 20. Patty is easily promoted by now. How is he not reaching level 30?

more on pursuit ring to Tinny [Levn] later....

Actually, now that I remembered so, Corple doesn't have to gain as many levels in order to promote. He just needs to gain 13, and then save all 6 children on chp 10. Given the situation as to why, I believe it would be fair to assume he would save all 6 (or at least enough to promote), so maybe Levin!Corple should be listed, but under Claude!Corple, and probably above Sharlow.

The probable reason as to why no one cares if the Valkyrie and Reserve staff are taken away from Sety and Given to Corple is because Corple and Sety can both use those weapons from the start, while Corple can't use Holsety from the start.

And about the punishing characters for existing, technically we are doing the same a bit for this game given that you have technically 8 chances to pick between certain characters or another I think.

[Eltoshen]

Or you can just spam his reserve staff and have him save 2 villages. I doubt many are going to miss 10k gold.

[Renall]

Or you can just spam his reserve staff and have him save 2 villages. I doubt many are going to miss 10k gold.

Corple [Levin] can't use Reserve before he promotes.

EDIT: Oh also...

Just because they aren't auto-bottom does not mean the punishments aren't applied.

Actually that is what it means. Our goal is to tier Cyas in FE5 where Cyas deserves to be as a character. Opportunity costs of recruitment are unfair in a tier list that is comparing character abilities (they're fine in a 'who should I use?' guide if someone is a pain) in part because this sort of thing never really has a logical conclusion.

I mean even someone like Xavier in FE5. You miss no character if you get Xavier, you lose essentially nothing (except rank) by skipping him. His opportunity cost is to play through ch18 in a pain-in-the-ass way that makes your life harder. How exactly do you quantify that? You can't, really. And if you start whining about him being "hard to recruit," what about Conomore? What about re-recruiting Eyvel? What about having to juggle Olwen to recruit Eyrios? It's better not to deal with that issue at all.

Pairings in this list should not be assumed to be an opportunity cost, or this list becomes a fight over best pairings, not best version of the kid.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Renall

[Salad Utensil]

Actually that is what it means. Our goal is to tier Cyas in FE5 where Cyas deserves to be as a character. Opportunity costs of recruitment are unfair in a tier list that is comparing character abilities (they're fine in a 'who should I use?' guide if someone is a pain) in part because this sort of thing never really has a logical conclusion.

I mean even someone like Xavier in FE5. You miss no character if you get Xavier, you lose essentially nothing (except rank) by skipping him. His opportunity cost is to play through ch18 in a pain-in-the-ass way that makes your life harder. How exactly do you quantify that? You can't, really. And if you start whining about him being "hard to recruit," what about Conomore? What about re-recruiting Eyvel? What about having to juggle Olwen to recruit Eyrios? It's better not to deal with that issue at all.

Pairings in this list should not be assumed to be an opportunity cost, or this list becomes a fight over best pairings, not best version of the kid.

I agree completely.

The arguement that people were using that Corple ought not get Holsety assumes he never will exist because the opportunity cost is against him. Not only is that a logical fallacy in my interpretation of that argument, but it begs the question of where he would actually be ranked in its own merits. If you really want to make a tier list that is completely fair to everyone, you might as well just only have the 'best pairing' or the one ranked highest for each kid (sarcasm).

At tier lists in general, ranking characters in terms of opportunity cost is strange to me. By ranking characters who would normally be good if their parallel existance character didn't exist seems to mean that they shouldn't be used even if they are recruited. Karel really isn't THAT bad, but by basically assigning an opportunity cost between him and Harken it makes it seem that he is actually a terrible character if he is recruited and shouldn't be used... (if he does get recruited)

Edited October 3, 2009 by Brighton

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually that is what it means. Our goal is to tier Cyas in FE5 where Cyas deserves to be as a character. Opportunity costs of recruitment are unfair in a tier list that is comparing character abilities (they're fine in a 'who should I use?' guide if someone is a pain) in part because this sort of thing never really has a logical conclusion.

I mean even someone like Xavier in FE5. You miss no character if you get Xavier, you lose essentially nothing (except rank) by skipping him. His opportunity cost is to play through ch18 in a pain-in-the-ass way that makes your life harder. How exactly do you quantify that? You can't, really. And if you start whining about him being "hard to recruit," what about Conomore? What about re-recruiting Eyvel? What about having to juggle Olwen to recruit Eyrios? It's better not to deal with that issue at all.

Pairings in this list should not be assumed to be an opportunity cost, or this list becomes a fight over best pairings, not best version of the kid.

I agree completely.

The arguement that people were using that Corple ought not get Holsety assumes he never will exist because the opportunity cost is against him. Not only is that a logical fallacy in my interpretation of that argument, but it begs the question of where he would actually be ranked in its own merits. If you really want to make a tier list that is completely fair to everyone, you might as well just only have the 'best pairing' or the one ranked highest for each kid (sarcasm).

At tier lists in general, ranking characters in terms of opportunity cost is strange to me. By ranking characters who would normally be good if their parallel existance character didn't exist seems to mean that they shouldn't be used even if they are recruited. Karel really isn't THAT bad, but by basically assigning an opportunity cost between him and Harken it makes it seem that he is actually a terrible character if he is recruited and shouldn't be used... (if he does get recruited)

Well, an interesting consequence of assigning an opportunity cost to Levin!Corple's existence is that he should be below all other versions of Corple. Stopping the team from having access to Holsety from chapter 6 to 9 or the final one? That should be massive.

Which just ends up looking odd on the list because Levin!Corple is clearly superior to most other versions yet he would be under.

It should also be enough to force Sety[Levin] under Aless and Shanan. Missing out on Holsety for two chapters is still big. Then we don't get a mounted Holsety user later on when Arthur could reasonably be promoted. Sure, once he shows up, he's awesome. but he's costing 2 chapters worth.

[PuffPuff]

Julia up. I see no reason she shouldn't be in High. Yeah she disappears, but it really isn't for all that long. She's decent up until then and has exclusive control of Rezire.

Yeah, and with Hacked patches you really can only clear the game with her.

Aless would be +3 move more than Shanan after promotion, plus you keep disregarding the fact that he can move after attacking.

Also, killing Yurius before Ishtar means you won't have to deal with her on the Final Chapter.

You're forced to fight Alvis, rofl. Unless you forgot he was actually the toughest boss besides Yurius (Chapter 9...or was that 10?).

Or if you've got the Berserk Staff, use that on one of their cult soldier and Yuris/Ishtar will go off killing that soldier ending the battle! Or just have them kill one of your units (Valkyrie Staff is useful for this in the second gen).

It's not like you need him to battle Alvis either. Cuz if he finishes off Alvis, no Life Ring for you!

Why is Aless with a Steel Blade?

Because he has more funding issues than Shanan due to his difficulty of falling in love with Laylea in a reasonable timeframe.

Yeah, and that timeframe is somewhat around the final chapter.

Even though that gives you more than enough time to pair her with Sharlow or someone else.

Base Aless can take a hit from Ishtar and survive. Shanan can't (even if you give him a few levels). Aless can actually kill Ishtar as well, with Critical. IIRC, I've always killed Ishtar with Aless. By the way, she has Ambush, which means Shanan won't even be able to react before being struck down.

Ishtar lv 27 (Thammer): 50 hp, 58 atk, 178 hit, 73 avo, 10 def, 31 res

22 Shanan: 94 avo base, +20 Forest, +30 Charisma, 10 from Lakche, and 20 from Serlis is...

174

oh noes 4% hit on him

And again, Ishtar is easy.

Crap that still gets him about an 80ish chance at being whomped by Ishtar. Stupid Ambush of hers. But Shanan should stay above Arless because his base stats start out better than Arless' and that you do not really have to use him with caution as much as with Arless.

Shanan can only possibly be killed by two bosses that you don't even have to fight at all Chapter 10 (Ishtar/Julius, Alvis , and maybe the dark wizards. As they can kill him in two hits with around a tenish chance. As for Arless he can even be killed by earlygame enemies in Chapter 7 upon his join time without using the church for his cover. But that's probably not a good idea either as those Social Knights can kill him if more than 5 hit him at once. And with his low avoid he is easily vurnable.

Why is Aless with a Steel Blade?

Because he has more funding issues than Shanan due to his difficulty of falling in love with Laylea in a reasonable timeframe.

Odd, I don't remember ever having money troubles with him and I've gone a few playthroughs where he hasn't fallen in love with Laylea.

Though that is very unlikely to happen as you need Arless to spring her from the slammer and just by doing that alone gives them both +300 in love points.

Shanan's usually another source of income for my other units. Make him fall in love with Patty and that's more money to give to others.

And what makes you so certain Aless IS the most efficient way to kill her? He can take one hit from her, he can't take two. Charging Ishtar with him results in a dead Aless rather than a dead Ishtar.

Aless doesn't need any bonuses.

of course he does. He needs to be healed.

Oh, and if we wanna discuss the most efficient way? Arthur Holsetys the bitch. There, now nobody gives a rats ass about how Aless OR Shanan does against a boss that's easy to deal with. Next topic.

That is if he doesn't critical that is. But why relie on crits when this battle can be avoided all together anyway.

That is also the most effective tactic if you don't have an Arthur that can use Holsety.

i dont see how it took you two minutes to type one sentance but w/e.

Actually, it was three minutes.

I haven't even attacked that statement in forever. I'll appreciate it if you actually attack things that come out of my mouth.

And I ask you, who cares? I've proven that neither Aless NOR Shanan is suited to fighting Ishtar. So it isn't a factor.

In the later chapters, no. With her increased stats she can be avoided with your second confrintation with her and your first in Chapter 8 as well, though you probably won't get the Power Ring either as she will be in your way that is if you don't get Fee to kill the Mountain Thief fast enough before she comes to your team that is. In the Final Chapter it is sufficiant to have Celice fight her since he will have the Tyrfing by then and that with his increased Res from a convo with Julia in Chapter 9's end and with a Barrier Ring he should be able to take 3, probably 4 of her Thorhammer hits. Arless is not recommended to use against her in Chapters 10 and Final. In ten she should be avoided and final, use Celice!

And changing a tier list due to an AIM convo when I stated pretty much the same exact thing in my first post regarding Aless > Shanan? What's up with that?

He actually provided ways around Aless's less than stellar durability. All you said was "but uh skillz"

Also, he didn't even bring up once this boss thing which is a hilariously minor point no matter who wins it. This could have been settled far sooner if you had focused on what actually mattered.

Yes, thank you. We're back on topic.

So you concede that Shanan's extra use is a non issue.

Then why the hell did you complain about it in the first place?

Haha, you will never get it will you. I can understand if you say I did not express my side clearly enough, but that doesn't change the fact that you were unable to identify the connection with the skills mentioned. Get over it. There's no need to beat a dead bush.

You bought up his skills, THEN I bought up his durability. You could have defended said durability, and you chose not to and instead decided it was a better idea to spam the thread with 3 pages of Ishtar shit which borders on irrelevant.

lol You had to go and say that now. =P

Yeah, but it's fun to go along with them to make the thread more epic. I didn't say anything because I find this all a game and that you've got to have some excitement in life.

But I was waiting for someone to pull the curtain of this.

For the record, Johalva can promote by the end of Chp 7.

How is he going to get 8 levels in 1 chapter when he doesn't even have a mount?

Lex Lackhe/Skasha have trouble getting that many, and they have Elite and aren't ridiculously overleveled and they have great combat parameters.

The only person I could possibly see promoting by the end of Chapter 7 is Celice.

Movement isn't that important for the most part. What really makes mounted units good is that they can change equipment during remove and have remove.

The Dark Mages are pretty close to the starting castle, admittedly, but they aren't in the range of the foot soldiers on the first turn, and foot soldiers can't canto away to avoid another attack from those hard-hitting guys. Seriously, I think everyone on your team is 2RKOed by them. Bastards. Same deal with Tinny's mage group, I guess, though they're a bit more lenient.

Everyone but Julia that is if she has Rizaia (which is highly recommended to have anyway).

The only person I could possibly see promoting by the end of Chapter 7 is Celice.

what

Why him and not the sword twins? If we favor him with the leg ring yes, but he's not any more entitled to it than they are just because he can seize faster. Nobody ever gives Hector/Marth/Roy the boots so they can seize faster, so I'm really not cool with assuming shit like the leg ring on Celice.

I think Leaf might be too high, when his promotion kicks in yeah he's great, but the thing is dosen't he need some favoritism to be able to hold out on his own via pursuit ring and hero sword?

Perhaps, but how much favoritism it actually takes to get him there should be considered...I'll admit I'm not too sure on it.

Actually, he is more entitled to it. Helps the tactics rank, but the ranking system sucks in this game anyway. It is smart to have Celice have it since he will get mounted upon class change and that promoting him earlier is never a disadvantage for the sword twins.

To seize the castles faster. It's a pain to have to wait for him to catch up to seze them and that he likely won't class change until around Chapter 8 or 9. Probably 10 that is if your overfeeding those kills to the other teammates. Which you should because Celice actually doesn't have to level much to battle the later enemies like your other teammates do. That's another point to be made on why he should have the Leg Ring until classchange.

Then why does nobody ever assume the boots on Hector, Marth, Ike, Et cetera?

I'm waaaaaiiittiinng

For RD Ike (never played PoR), Ike doesn't have access to the Boots until Part 4. Still doesn't make a difference, since every chapter after that point is Rout.

Every but Izuka's chapter.

Still, gotta love status staffs. Beautiful in this game.

Only that they're probably the most expensive items in the game and that most of them break after one use.

EDIT: Also, do we have any thoughts on Rana and Lester [Azel]? Rescue Staff and they wind up with Pursuit. Lester loses out on the Killer and Hero until ch8 and gets STR screwed, but at least has Pursuit. Substantially worse than other Lesters, but decent enough, and Lana winds up pretty bitchin' for Staff Chick.

With this pairing he gets decent enough with a Power Ring and the Hero Bow.

As for the earlier mentioned Linda being better than Tinny, I think Linda would be better than Levin!Tinny. Both characters have to rely on wrath to deal damage and Linda is dealing more with earlier access to Tron. Additionally, she has a bit better magic and Elite, so she'll level faster. Levin!Tinny has continue and the somewhat redundant in her case critical skill, but that doesn't beat out Elite and early access to Tron. The reason I wouldn't say she should be above Azel!Tinny is because of the great stats the pairing gives her, the fact she has pursuit (so she won't always be relying on wrath and can deal decent damage before she starts to rely on wrath), along with the fact that both gain continue upon promotion anyway.

Whoa whoa whoa. Linda isn't bad by any means, but I don't know about better than a Levin-seeded Tinny. Linda's getting crushed in SPD and SKL, even with a level lead. If she has exactly 2x Tinny's level they're comparable, sure, but I don't think she will, and Tinny's got more room to grow, Wind and Elwind, more HP, and later she's basically the only person who can even use Tornado without it being a total waste. Is Elite and Thoron immediately really better than Continue and Critical? Tinny at least has a chance to double.

Linda also has Wrath.

I find her more useful than Tinny in most pairings.

With a Secret convo with Jake in Chapter 8 she can also get +3 more Res. Maybe with a Barrier Ring she won't be prey to Sleep and Silence Staff Druids endgame.

Elite and Imediate Thoron are better when Linda gains continue upon promotion and the fact that wrath makes critical stupid.

That too.

Out of all the worthwhile pairings Tinny [levin] is the only one without pursuit (that fights), does that not mean that she makes the best candidate for the pursuit ring since it was apparently fiated by someone that Celice should get the elite ring (not that I disagree with, since it's a must for rank runs)? I'm not really arguing for it since everyone will shoot me down or something, but if she does, she should go up a lot.

Um...also shouldn't Corple be split up into different Corples? If Corple [Claude] is slightly above the others, shouldn't Corple [Levn] be higher still? If anyone is considering my proposal than I would see it like this:

Corple [Levn]

Corple [Claude]

Sharlow

Corple [Lex]

Corple [Azel]

For Leen:

Leen [Lex]

Leen [Arden]

Leen [everyone else]

Whatever, just some thoughts to consider...

Levin!Corple shouldn't be above Claude!Corple, nor should be listed since it essentially gets rid of your use of one holy weapon. Levin!Corple is good, but also isn't. He probably won't promote until mid chp 10, and without Pursuit(you could always give him the pursuit ring) he won't always one round enemies, which can occasionally screw you over in the final chapter. The benefit of using Claude!Corple is that you don't need to promote him/likely won't be using him in battle. Corple really is just a healer, and the abillity to use the Valkyrie staff right away is better than having to gain a tedious 19 levels to use Holsety.

Only downfall with this pairing is that you don't get access to Holsety until so late in the game.

Yeah well, Corple [Levin] is about as good with staves and has Holsety after promotion. None of the other Corples can claim that, right?

None of them can, but he still only gets there for Final at BEST [and he doesn't get the easy EXP staves like say Reserve either which sucks ass] and his move makes it difficult to utilize efficiently as opposed to Sharlow who just berserks the strongest foe he can and causes havoc all over the place without anybody even being able to reach him. Sharlow>LevinCorple, thus Corple[Anybody not named Claude] being below Sharlow has no reason to change because it's still true, any Corple is worse than Sharlow unless that Corple is fathered by Claude.

Hell, he doesn't even have Elite and he has no way of getting combat, so have fun getting him a decent staff to level with for all of one chapter until Final rolls in.

Hell, speaking of Reserve/Valkyrie, I honestly think just those two alone for a chapter of access is better than just Holsety in Final, and maybe not even being promoted by then still makes it a waste. Corple's move doesn't get in the way of him using Reserve, but it does get in the way of his combat power, which fails to even stand out that much by Endgame.

The only way that this argument can even be nulled is if there is a way to get Corple the Elite Ring upon which most likely he won't have access to unless that you can find a way to get Patty to scoop up enough gold from the enemies.

Or you can just spam his reserve staff and have him save 2 villages. I doubt many are going to miss 10k gold.

Corple [Levin] can't use Reserve before he promotes.

EDIT: Oh also...

Just because they aren't auto-bottom does not mean the punishments aren't applied.

Actually that is what it means. Our goal is to tier Cyas in FE5 where Cyas deserves to be as a character. Opportunity costs of recruitment are unfair in a tier list that is comparing character abilities (they're fine in a 'who should I use?' guide if someone is a pain) in part because this sort of thing never really has a logical conclusion.

But getting Cyas isn't recommended anyway. You only get three leadership stars upon his joining and that you have to say goodbye to some easy EXP, and Sety.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Ayanami

[Eltoshen]

Or you can just spam his reserve staff and have him save 2 villages. I doubt many are going to miss 10k gold.

Corple [Levin] can't use Reserve before he promotes.

Oh yes. Well, I was just trying to point out that he can spam staves.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Eltoshen