FE4 Gen 2 list

[Renall]

But getting Cyas isn't recommended anyway. You only get three leadership stars upon his joining and that you have to say goodbye to some easy EXP, and Sety.

Completely irrelevant. It's not recommended to get Karel even if you're not crazy about Harken because of the Brave Sword, but that's not relevant to tiering him. On the path where Karel exists, Harken and his sword don't. On the path where Cyas exists, Sety doesn't. On the path where Corple [Levin] exists, Sety [Levin] and Arthur [Levin] don't.

[Dat Nick]

Nobody really cares about the brave sword unless you're playing HHM Ranked over Efficiency.

just saying

[Salad Utensil]

Well, an interesting consequence of assigning an opportunity cost to Levin!Corple's existence is that he should be below all other versions of Corple. Stopping the team from having access to Holsety from chapter 6 to 9 or the final one? That should be massive.

Which just ends up looking odd on the list because Levin!Corple is clearly superior to most other versions yet he would be under.

It should also be enough to force Sety[Levin] under Aless and Shanan. Missing out on Holsety for two chapters is still big. Then we don't get a mounted Holsety user later on when Arthur could reasonably be promoted. Sure, once he shows up, he's awesome. but he's costing 2 chapters worth.

Or better yet opportunity costs should NOT be applied in this tier list. At least in this situation. Based on the "Good" pairings, there is a possibility Levn just isn't paired, what than? Holsety! Sety, Arthur, Corple all don't exist.

Tier PCs based on merit not opportunity cost because you end up comparing "paralel" worlds based COMPLETELY on the player's PLAYSTYLE. Oh noes the player decides that he likes Corple and wants him to be the vessal for Holsety. Obviously he will be angry when he finds out that Corple sucks and suddenly both Sety and Arthur can magically use Holsety despite not being Levn's son in the same playthrough as when Levn decided to get Sylvia pregnant, but can't inherit it, OH WAIT...By applying opportunity costs and completely dropping Corple to bottom, everyone on the Corple hate wagon is agreeing that NOT using holsety at all is apparently better than using it with Corple.

Does no one recognize this is not an economics class and can't just apply a label of "OPPORTUNITY COST" to a comparison of consumption and pass that off as a warrent for their claims? A PT with Corple [LEVN], Sety [Levn], Arthur [Levn] does't exist meaning they can never use holsety even if it was passed down through Corple.

The implication is: unless someone proves the burden that Corple + Holsety < No Holsety and all three holsety users can exist in the same playthrough and all magically have Levn as the dad, opportunity cost (in this game at least) needs to be reconsidered.

My rant is over >_>

Edited October 3, 2009 by Brighton

[Dat Nick]

Will you people please remember something?

It's Holsety for one chapter. I don't consider ability to attack for one chapter at a time where his power will be overshadowed anyway enough to warrant listing him between Sharlow and the other Corples. What I said on the list remains correct, that all Corples are inferior to Sharlow unless Claude is fathering him.

So there's no point in having him separately on the list, as he would just be where he already is.

btw, how the hell did Corple get the Elite Ring, earlier? Did the 20k for it just drop out of the sky?

Edited October 3, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

Will you people please remember something?

It's Holsety for one chapter. I don't consider ability to attack for one chapter at a time where his power will be overshadowed anyway enough to warrant listing him between Sharlow and the other Corples. What I said on the list remains correct, that all Corples are inferior to Sharlow unless Claude is fathering him.

So there's no point in having him separately on the list, as he would just be where he already is.

btw, how the hell did Corple get the Elite Ring, earlier? Did the 20k for it just drop out of the sky?

I'm not really sure what to say about the top part besides saying we shouldn't look at opportunity cost in this game in this case and second Holsety is kinda useful in the Final too. Being outclassed doesn't mean he isn't useful. 5ish holy weapon users > 4Holyweapon users

Warp Staff gives 60Exp a shot, restore gives 60exp a shot, mend gives 20 exp, libro 35exp. He doesn't need elite ring at all.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Brighton

[Dat Nick]

Being outclassed doesn't mean he isn't useful.

Not useful enough to be considered notably better than Corples not named Levin, and most certainly not Claude.

Warp Staff gives 60Exp a shot, restore gives 60exp a shot, mend gives 20 exp, libro 35exp. He doesn't need elite ring at all.

wtf did he get all that shit? Did Donald Trump donate to the "Let's give Corple all the money we have so he can Holsety for one chapter with bad move at that" fund? And as if THAT'S not bad enough, they need to be repaired as well.

Oh, and Restore? The hell does he have to restore? Do any status staves exist in C10?

Edited October 3, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Blademaster!]

Or you can just spam his reserve staff and have him save 2 villages. I doubt many are going to miss 10k gold.

Corple [Levin] can't use Reserve before he promotes.

Oh yes. Well, I was just trying to point out that he can spam staves.

I believe I have already said this before, but Corple is A ranked in staves before promotion (unless Claude is his father in which case he is *). That means he can use any staff except the Valkyrie, which he would only be able to obtain if Claude was his father anyway. Remember, Sylvia has Minor Blagi blood.

[Salad Utensil]

Being outclassed doesn't mean he isn't useful.

Not useful enough to be considered notably better than Corples not named Levin, and most certainly not Claude.

Warp Staff gives 60Exp a shot, restore gives 60exp a shot, mend gives 20 exp, libro 35exp. He doesn't need elite ring at all.

wtf did he get all that shit? Did Donald Trump donate to the "Let's give Corple all the money we have so he can Holsety for one chapter with bad move at that" fund? And as if THAT'S not bad enough, they need to be repaired as well.

Oh, and Restore? The hell does he have to restore? Do any status staves exist in C10?

Warp isn't even that expensive its 10k, If he inherited a useless ring like return or barrier, lol he can afford it, no one else really needs the villages at this point either. The problem is that the list assumes that Corple won't be in play despite unlimited deployments. If Corple was really this hard to use than the ranks in this game would be impossible, yet you seem to purposely make it seem that the funds required for Corple are THAT hard to get. The thing that everyone should consider in this game is that favortism in this game isn't bad at all, stat boosters are infinite use, arena is meant to be abused and all your characters are broken, your overall game becomes much easier if you apply favortism to all your characters when needed. Having 3 super broken characters and 20 ignored characters is worse than 23 broken characters. By the time Corple arrives you can favor him because it is very likely your army can afford to favor characters without really any problems. How do you think Exp rank is possible? You max out the level of every staff user ASAP by trading around staves, when early staffers reach level 30 you give the higher eXP staves to later characters.

Yes. There are status staves in chapter 10 and finale.

[Dat Nick]

Warp isn't even that expensive its 10k

When you're a healer who can't Arena at all and need to rely on Patty to spoon feed you gold never mind that there's no way Corple is finding a lover, 10k is a lot.

If he inherited a useless ring like return or barrier

Barrier is not useless as there are a lot of Fenrir mages to deal with never mind Ishtar, and Return has it's uses as well.

no one else really needs the villages at this point either.

Maybe the villages get him a few staves. But they don't give him the funds to repair them.

The problem is that the list assumes that Corple won't be in play despite unlimited deployments.

Where the fuck are you getting that idea? If that was what I was saying then I wouldn't even bother explaining to you why Corple has funding issues.

everybody else in this game is broken blabla rankings wouldn't be possible otherwise blabla

Consider your ass lucky this isn't a ranked list otherwise there's REALLY no way Corple at level 20 would even be considered.

Also, you just said it, broken characters due to holy weapons. What do those holy weapons need? Other characters need money for their 1k a use gold guzzlers just as badly as Corple needs money for his staves, probably more, considering a few holy weapon users have lover issues [Celice stands out right away]

Also, please stop side-stepping the issue here. Even if we assume gets Corple gets favored to level 20 1 chapter of Holsety with crappy move isn't enough to make him drastically better than other Corples and still not Sharlow, meaning the philosophy that Corple is worse than Sharlow unless Claude is his father stands. I'm getting really fucking sick of having to keep repeating this, too, only to have you brush it off entirely in your next post.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

Consider your ass lucky this isn't a ranked list otherwise there's REALLY no way Corple at level 20 would even be considered.

Also, you just said it, broken characters due to holy weapons. What do those holy weapons need? Other characters need money for their 1k a use gold guzzlers just as badly as Corple needs money for his staves, probably more, considering a few holy weapon users have lover issues [Celice stands out right away]

Also, please stop side-stepping the issue here. Even if we assume gets Corple gets favored to level 20 1 chapter of Holsety with crappy move isn't enough to make him drastically better than other Corples and still not Sharlow, meaning the philosophy that Corple is worse than Sharlow unless Claude is his father stands. I'm getting really fucking sick of having to keep repeating this, too, only to have you brush it off entirely in your next post.

Does this mean he isn't able to get to Level 20 by Finale? or that no one would even try to? Are we also assuming Corple never inherents anything in [Levn] Corple? Levn can pass down staves too. The Turn count requirements for ranking are actually rather lenient if you plan it out slightly before you begin the game.

Celice has lover issues? Rana, Lacke, Yuia (JK), Patty. What lover issues

Is it the consensus that everyone just spams holy weapons when they might not be necessary? Does Balmunk, Mistoleen, and Tyfling, Valkyre end up broken after every chapter or is only 10-20 uses used that can be recovered with a iron blade+arena or thief ring/sword or something?

Sharlow=Corple[Azel] a Priest with Elite and berserk staff, but worse speed, luck, and resistence (?) lack of prayer, continues, and pursuit and B staves. Berserk a One use staff that is inferior to sleep and costs 15k to repair. I'm not seeing him promote at until the finale either, he will easily reach promotion level before though. Prepromotion his use is the same as Corples except he has a Berserk staff that will suck away Exp from other characters by making an enemy go nuts. Holsety at the finale still makes him worse than all other Corples and whatever Sharlow does in the Finale? In this parallel universe/PT Corple is the only form of Holsety. The Finale might be easier if you use him. Money stops mattering since your 50-350 use items won't all break before the game is done. If Levn passed down a semi unused Holsety, Corple can sell his EXP staves.

"Shrugs" this is my last post about Corple [Levn] not sucking so whatever. You all can disagree with the stuff I've been proposing, but without going in depth at all, IMO Corple [Levn]>Corple [Claude] with the Valkyre-staff-that-should-never-need-to-be-used-anyway-if-you are-a-competant-tacticain-in-the-broken-Second-Generation and Sharlow

[Dat Nick]

with the Valkyre-staff-that-should-never-need-to-be-used-anyway-if-you are-a-competant-tacticain-in-the-broken-Second-Generation

Yeah, because the Valkyrie staff is the only reason Claude!Corple is so much better.

Sharlow=Corple[Azel] a Priest with Elite and berserk staff, but worse speed, luck, and resistence (?) lack of prayer, continues, and pursuit and B staves.

...Who cares about any of the bolded considering Sharlow has no reason to be in any enemy's attack range ever?

Berserk staff that will suck away Exp from other characters by making an enemy go nuts.

Wait, our characters are uber broken, but they still need EXP? Now you're going to contradict yourself just for the sake of arguing?

Celice has lover issues? Rana, Lacke, Yuia (JK), Patty. What lover issues

Rana's not fast enough considering Celice is never going to be near her after he promotes. Where did Lakche and Patty come from? They're going to be miles behind him too and they're even slower, plus none of the above have any conversations with him that increase love points.

Berserk a One use staff that is inferior to sleep and costs 15k to repair

what? Berserk can make an uberunit go nuts and slaughter the squad on it's own. Sleep just puts the sucker to sleep. More like Sleep is an inferior Berserk.

Holsety at the finale still makes him worse than all other Corples and whatever Sharlow does in the Finale?

I said it doesn't make him notably better enough than other Corples to warrant seperating him.

If Levn passed down a semi unused Holsety, Corple can sell his EXP staves.

...What kind of logic is this? Corple NEEDS to use those staves before he can use Holsety.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

^Ignoring since I already realized that no one agrees with me and the TC doesn't and I already posted that my posts on Corple vs Sharlow vs Corple will stop updating

I probably should have asked this at the beginning b4 I post a bunch of stuff about Corple[Levn] and stuff (sorry for everyone whose computers slowed down due to the giant walls of text I posted). What is the criterion of this list. Efficiency (to what extent), completing the game ASAP, The 4 Ranks :D ? Are characters getting compared in the context all of the them exist at once somehow, like Arthur [Levn] to Corple [Levn] with Corple being punished for having holsety while Arthur could use it too? Is there a criterion on which characters get which rings and stuff? How lenient is this list towards trading items for the sake of gaining EXP.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Brighton

[Narga_Rocks]

How important is prayer on Nanna? Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

Nanna[Azel] looks pretty decent compared to Nanna[Fin]

105% 55% 40% 20% 45% 30% 15% 50%

95% 65% 7% 30% 35% 35% 12% 65%

She has +10% hp, -10% str, +33% mag, -10% skl, +10% spd, -5% def, -15% luck.

So she has more spd and she'll have decent enough magic to wield a magic sword. More speed growth means more speed. Since she has swords, I'm not sure if she needs the extra speed for doubling, but it is a fair amount of speed eventually. She'll even have more hp to make up for any def loss. Also, she'll recover a lot more hp for other units. The str loss doesn't stop her from capping str at level 23 on average anyway, instead of level 20.

I guess the main thing is she's faster and heals better and can use magic swords quite well with 14 magic at level 23. That's similar to Fee[Levin] with magic swords. Certainly better than Leaf or anyone other than Fee[Levin] will do with any of them.

I'm just asking if maybe she has a right to exist.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I wanna throw Azel!Delmud and Azel!Nanna into the list. Comparetively azel can pass down swords up to B rank (earth sword, other mag swords, hero sword) to delmud and gives him a much higher mag base of 3 to fin's 0 and a 42% mag growth on top of it. F! Delmud has a 70% strength growth but with the class cap being 23 after promotion so A! Delmud's 50% growth means he will cap strength as well since fin's son only has an 11 base strength to azel's 10. Azel! delmud has an 11 in speed and a 60% speed growth in comparison to fin's 9 speed base and 40% speed growth.

Nanna! Delmud though is of course the focus of this pairing. She gets a 40% mag growth with azel as the father and has a 4 for mag base over fin's 3 mag base and 7% mag growth. She is losing speed wise but she does have a 10% higher speed growth than fin!nanna at 45% to his 35% meaning she should be able to double reliably thanks to the high experience rates she gets from staves on a horse (and of course lol swords and weapon weight in this game). She won't be able to dodge as much as fin!nanna but she does have higher mag so she can wield the earth sword better so the durability edge might be nonexistent or of course in nanna's favor thanks to the earth sword. Superior 2 range + better stave utility I believe is far more useful than a few points of speed.

I don't think azel! delmud is losing by much to fin! delmud durability/1 range wise and if he is it's made up for by azel! delmud having good ranged offense/lol earth sword with high enough mag to get back 15+ hp per strike.

EDIT: WHAT THE **** NARGA ?! HOW COULD YOU BEAT ME TO POSTING ABOUT IT?!

Oh and screw Prayer.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Lancelot

[Narga_Rocks]

EDIT: WHAT THE **** NARGA ?! HOW COULD YOU BEAT ME TO POSTING ABOUT IT?!

I'm glad someone else was thinking about this because I was wondering if I was going to get laughed at for the suggestion. Azel is funny because ignoring Levin's holy blood Azel has the highest spd growth in generation 1 and since Nanna/Delmud have minor Hezul and low str caps they can actually manage to be okay with Azel as their father despite wanting strength. And they both have swords so they can use the magic swords.

Oh and screw Prayer.

Really? I was afraid that would be a sticking point. Still, a bunch of other units have two fathers listed and Azel is a good father for them, so I don't see why they shouldn't exist.

[Dat Nick]

Efficiency

This

How important is prayer on Nanna? Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

It's moreso that she doesn't get charge, which is an awful skill on her.

Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

Not really, but I'm not going to consider a pairing that screws one kid over unless the other one benefits from it notably.

[Salad Utensil]

Why is Fee [Claude] in lower mid? She can still one round with hero lance at base basically everything that appears near her and has flier utility. Also Libro and restore staff on a Falco knight with Very high resistence is very useful especially in the finale.

[Dat Nick]

She can still one round with hero lance at base basically everything that appears near her and has flier utility.

Fin wants that Hero Lance too. Unless he's no longer having AS issues.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

Fin wants that Hero Lance too. Unless he's no longer having AS issues.

Oh is Fin assumed to be unpromoted? or not?

[Dat Nick]

Oh is Fin assumed to be unpromoted? or not?

Um....WHAT?

Can you think of any logical reason Fin wouldn't be promoted by now?

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

Not really, but I'm not going to consider a pairing that screws one kid over unless the other one benefits from it notably.

Aside from denying Delmud prayer it robs him of a fair bit of str (1 or 2 at base and 20% of his growth) and some skill and a fair amount of luck.

He still has a 50% str growth and is only down by 5 str at any time, really. He also has a huge spd boost from this, though. For example, at level 13 he has one more spd with a blade than Delmud does with a plain sword. Also, level 22 Delmud has 10 mag compared to 1 or 2. Same hp and only 10% less def growth, too.

If Fin!Delmud can still double lots of things with a blade, then I guess the spd advantage isn't so huge, but I don't think it screws him over enough to ignore what Azel does for Nanna.

Edit: Oh, and I suppose as Lancelot mentioned, a promoted Azel can actually give stuff to Delmud. Up to B, anyway.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Salad Utensil]

Um....WHAT?

Can you think of any logical reason Fin wouldn't be promoted by now?

I listed the hero lance since Fin won't need it for a while, by the time Fee is ready to promote she wouldn't need it anymore and Fin could have it. Its not like Fee[Claude] depends on the hero lance forever. But is the fact she has B staves as the most mobile healer with a libro and restore staff worth much? I mean its pretty much unique to her in this one pairing.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Efficiency

This

How important is prayer on Nanna? Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

It's moreso that she doesn't get charge, which is an awful skill on her.

Also, does it matter what the pairing does to the sibling?

Not really, but I'm not going to consider a pairing that screws one kid over unless the other one benefits from it notably.

Prayer is still near useless. Superior 2 range/stave usage is very superior to lol! prayer and lol! +5 speed convo if neither turns you into a veritable goddess of destruction. With the enhanced mag Azel! Nanna would immediately rise like every other good FE valkyrie since healing on a horse is awesome. She also would be able to sit on the front lines if we gave her the earth sword. Delmud barely loses durability/offense for having azel instead of fin for a father and instead gains the decent ranged offense he always wanted. If anything Azel! Delmud might be higher than fin! delmud on the list.

Also fin has better things to be doing than sitting back with lachesis. He is among the best units while he is around gen 1 thanks to pursuit and the hero lance. He would much rather prefer using his full move each turn. Azel has similar move to lachesis conveniently and far more time to build up the points before the end of gen 1 where as fin has to be glue'd to lachesis before he leaves and if he is away from her for even a few turns the tier player might miss getting the damn thing in time.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Lancelot

[Dr. Tarrasque]

There's also Wind Sword and Magic ring for Claude!Fee. Nothing spectacular but her chip damage doesn't suck with that.

Level 21 and promoted Fin can double the enemies sent to attack Lenster with the 12 WT Lances.

[Dat Nick]

Prayer is still near useless. Superior 2 range/stave usage is very superior to lol! prayer and lol! +5 speed convo if neither turns you into a veritable goddess of destruction. With the enhanced mag Azel! Nanna would immediately rise like every other good FE valkyrie since healing on a horse is awesome. She also would be able to sit on the front lines if we gave her the earth sword. Delmud barely loses durability/offense for having azel instead of fin for a father and instead gains the decent ranged offense he always wanted. If anything Azel! Delmud might be higher than fin! delmud on the list.

That's why I said the benefit of Fin!Lachesis comes from Charge not existing, not Prayer being wtfhax.

And hm, Azel!Lachesis kids could certainly be listed, yeah.