FE4 Gen 2 list

[Dat Nick]

I don't see Libro utility outweighing mount. Especially not when it combines with Hit and Run.

NonHolsetySetys are actually mortal and not avo gods, so it's not like you can count their enemy phase as "omgwtf awesome" either.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Renall]

Lester's always been underrated. I wouldn't be opposed to Lester [Midir] beating Hawk. Hawk is an excellent replacement, but he's Sety's replacement, which means he ain't around for a while. Lester's there from nearly the start.

Of course, this assumes he's getting either the Hero or Killer passed to him, but why wouldn't he with Midir as dad? Hell, he may as well get both, in case Johalva wants one (he'd love the Hero after promotion, and with Pursuit the Killer works just fine for Lester) or Leaf or Faval or whatever, and they could just buy it when they show up. Very few characters get such potent weapons essentially to their exclusive benefit for several chapters.

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't see why Johalava gets his mitts on more than one bow anyway or even why he's using Bows without the Pursuit Ring. Even then the competition only exists after promotion which is a ways off.

Lester above the Setys for now.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Renall]

I think realistically no one is getting a bow off Lester until Faval joins, as I doubt strongly Johalva's promoting by the start of ch8 and Leaf promoting is obviously as unlikely. And then Faval doesn't exactly want them. So yeah, you're talking like 6-8 of exclusive use, and he can get them from dad (as opposed to a non-Jamka/Midir Lester, who has to find them or wait for Faval). Hero AND Killer is excessive, but who else can use them all that time?

Sounds good.

[Blademaster!]

Faval already has the Ichival/Silver bow, so I can't see why he would want the Hero or Killer Bow in the first place.

.....I think Johalva can promote by the start of chp 8.....

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Faval already has the Ichival/Silver bow, so I can't see why he would want the Hero or Killer Bow in the first place.

.....I think Johalva can promote by the start of chp 8.....

Only after extreme favoritism, literally giving him all boss kills and leaving only a few enemies for your other units.

[Dat Nick]

Meh, there's even the chance Johalava isn't in play [Him blocking out Johan is a bigger deal than blocking a superior unit in FE7 and that's already a minor setback] but I don't see Lester going any higher regardless [His next target is NoishSwordkids]

Actually speaking of Johalva...who thinks Dimna>Him? No hero weapon until C8 is the only thing against him, and even then No Hero Weapon is compensated for with Pursuit and +5 str event. Then the obvious mount wins.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Bows have 8 weight to Dimna's 9 speed with a 20% growth. Pursuit doesn't enter the equasion if you can't double a damn thing. It'll double axers, maybe lancers, but I doubt anything else. Since he can't inherit weapons, this means he's working with whatever shitty bow he's stuck with until Faval (of which you have to buy it off him), or when you get Brave/Killer via drops (killer, you're basically in Thracia. Brave Bow is an even bigger nightmare). Basically he's stuck with Iron until he gets steel, from 24-28 Mt, whenever that Str convo happens. Basically 28 mt is Brave Axe Johalva with the brave at base. Basically have to wait till Faval sells his silver bow and Dimna buys it, but that's in chapter 8. Johalva could have gotten the pursuit ring by then as well, which doubles his offense.

It is pretty close though...

[dondon151]

I don't think "blocking out Johan" is a valid argument. You're penalizing Johalva twice for being worse than Johan.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think "blocking out Johan" is a valid argument. You're penalizing Johalva twice for being worse than Johan.

Way to freaking strawman. I didn't even bring that up in him vs Dimna, I just said there's a chance he's not in play and thus won't use one of Lester's Bows, and that it's a bigger deal than in FE4.

[BBM]

I dunno about Lester > Sety. Sety isn't invincible without Holsety, but he's still packing 80+ AVO with Claude as his dad. Probably a couple others as well, but those aren't magical fathers. 80 AVO is pretty good. He's still dodge tanking most generics.

Lester is ORKOing most things on Player phase, but has no Enemy phase action, and is an enemy magnet. He has crap durability too. The only people enemies target over him are your healers. Don't say "He can move after attacking, so he never gets hit!", because there are plenty of enemies with ranged weapons. The Chapter 6 Axe Knights, for example, 2HKO him with hit rates in the 60s, IIRC. And he's probably killing them in 4 hits, but not in two. Also, just because you have Canto doesn't mean you never get attacked. Sometimes you can't get him back far enough.

By the way, I'm against Levin!Arthur at top of top too. He should go down to bottom of top. He's killing about two Brigands in Chapter 6, so after the Arena, he'll be level 5. He's not going to be promoted before you get Sety. And Sety can actually dodge without Holsety and kill at the same time. Hell, depending on the Dragon Knights' HP, Hawk might be able to do it better (assuming Arthur doesn't have the Pursuit Ring). He has 36 POW with Lightning, and 50 AVO.

[Eltoshen]

I think LevinArthur needs to drop below Aless, if not Shanan as well. I think we can assume Arthur won't be doing shit without the leg ring besides maybe killing the random bandits at the villages. Having him try to lure the axe fighters in Johalva's army is stupid, too, since you would need Celice to conquer the castle, so your army will be headed in that direction anyways.

After Celice conquers the castle, you'll probably have killed all the remaining enemies before Arthur can get past where you recruited Johan.

Aless and Shanan join the next chapter. Higher move and even more overkill than Arthur. They have Pursuit, too. It's really unlikely for Aless to die as well, thanks to Ambush and much higher defense. Shanan has a lot more avoid than Arthur at this point in time, as well.

[Paperblade]

That's agreeable. I mostly disagreed with him dropping out of Top.

[Dat Nick]

I dunno about Lester > Sety. Sety isn't invincible without Holsety, but he's still packing 80+ AVO with Claude as his dad. Probably a couple others as well, but those aren't magical fathers. 80 AVO is pretty good. He's still dodge tanking most generics.

Yeah, but he still needs time to get up there. He only has...60-something avo starting out and his concrete durability is not very impressive [38hp/9def] And he's starting two chapters down so this makes Lester win last longer.

Don't say "He can move after attacking, so he never gets hit!", because there are plenty of enemies with ranged weapons.

Lester can afford to be targeted by weak, inaccurate 2-range weapons like handaxe/javelin. He actually knows what the term "Concrete durability" means, you know. 29 HP/8 def 105% hp/40% growth. In what insane universe does that qualify as "crap durability"? Lester's not going to die the second he gets attacked, and while hit and run doesn't get him out of everything, it DOES mean he'll get hit less than Sety which just increases his durability lead.

also, Holsety users down [People argued against Sety>Arthur]

[BBM]

You make it sound like Lester is Lex or something. Sure, his concrete durability is better than your healers, but it isn't good enough for him to take more than a couple hits. His dodge is alright, but again, it isn't good enough for him to dodge reliably. Hence, he doesn't have good durability. These weak, inaccurate weapons can still kill him in a couple hits. And unless you also have a healer exposed, every unit that can will attack Lester. Not to mention, Mages murder him. 0 base RES with a 7% growth? Mages are also more accurate then Hand Axes and Javelins.

Lester is attacking one or two enemies per turn. Beating the Arena is iffy for him, while any half-assed Sety can storm through the Arena. He's not going to have so large of a level lead, especially since you've got to use other units. 60ish AVO is a lot more than some of your other units who'll be in the front. Sety may not get attacked.

Both Sety and Lester destroy Thracia, but once you get out of it, Sety keeps a good offence, while Lester doesn't. Lester might not even ORKO Armour Knights or Generals. I don't have the stats, but it's probably borderline if he does. His class has a totally crap STR cap. Also, Lester doesn't have a monopoly on that Hero Bow. Faval has no Thief Ring/Bargain Ring, he doesn't have a lover, and Ichival is expensive. His Silver Bow may not ORKO Armours either. PEMN, but I think he doesn't. Johalva can use bows as well. Leaf, though he doesn't need it, can use it too. Lester's entire life is built on that Hero Bow. Take it away, and he's shit.

This is all fighting. Let's not forget that Sety has Valkyrie, Reserve, and Libro. Sety can stay on the second line equipping Lightning, and heal your units from behind. Sety doesn't have to be attacked either.

[Renall]

You make it sound like Lester is Lex or something. Sure, his concrete durability is better than your healers, but it isn't good enough for him to take more than a couple hits. His dodge is alright, but again, it isn't good enough for him to dodge reliably. Hence, he doesn't have good durability. These weak, inaccurate weapons can still kill him in a couple hits. And unless you also have a healer exposed, every unit that can will attack Lester. Not to mention, Mages murder him. 0 base RES with a 7% growth? Mages are also more accurate then Hand Axes and Javelins.

I think we need to pull out enemy stats for this one to be sure.

Lester is attacking one or two enemies per turn. Beating the Arena is iffy for him, while any half-assed Sety can storm through the Arena. He's not going to have so large of a level lead, especially since you've got to use other units. 60ish AVO is a lot more than some of your other units who'll be in the front. Sety may not get attacked.

I've never really had a problem getting Lester [Midir] through the arena. Are you using the Hero or Killer Bow? More on this in a second.

Both Sety and Lester destroy Thracia, but once you get out of it, Sety keeps a good offence, while Lester doesn't. Lester might not even ORKO Armour Knights or Generals. I don't have the stats, but it's probably borderline if he does. His class has a totally crap STR cap. Also, Lester doesn't have a monopoly on that Hero Bow. Faval has no Thief Ring/Bargain Ring, he doesn't have a lover, and Ichival is expensive. His Silver Bow may not ORKO Armours either. PEMN, but I think he doesn't. Johalva can use bows as well. Leaf, though he doesn't need it, can use it too. Lester's entire life is built on that Hero Bow. Take it away, and he's shit.

That's all true except the last part. But none of those guys exist for ch6 and 7 (well, Johalva does, but he won't be promoted, if he's recruited). Lester has a literal monopoly for two chapters out of six on the two best bows going. Even if you wanted to take them away, what else can you do with 'em?

Also, bear in mind the Killer is very nice. With sufficient SKL and kills on there from the first gen (and Jamka shouldn't have any problems getting kills, or Midir after he buys it to pass it along), Lester will be critting a lot. And he has Charge and Pursuit, so that's more chances to do it. More to the point, the Killer has the same Mt, 20 more Hit, and is 5 Wt lighter. So that's helping him offensively and defensively.

Lester [Jamka] lives and dies by the Hero Bow. Lester [Midir] can kick ass with the Killer. I'd have to run the numbers to see which does better, but crits would help with his problem against higher-DEF enemies since fewer hits that hit harder are better than more hits that tink.

This is all fighting. Let's not forget that Sety has Valkyrie, Reserve, and Libro. Sety can stay on the second line equipping Lightning, and heal your units from behind. Sety doesn't have to be attacked either.

All true, at least for Sety [Claude]. And his MAG is pretty amazing. But the non-Claude Setys? I dunno.

[Dat Nick]

You make it sound like Lester is Lex or something. Sure, his concrete durability is better than your healers, but it isn't good enough for him to take more than a couple hits.

wtf? I didn't say that.

Your argument makes it sound like he's made out of paper and he's always getting attacked. It's not the end of the world if Lester has to take a hit. Hell, later on, it's not the end of the world if he has to take SEVERAL hits.

But let's start slow.

12 Lester: 40 HP, 12 def

C8 enemies:

********

Chapter 8

********

====================

Enemies near Lenster Castle

====================

General lv 18 (steel lance): 58 hp, 30 atk, 100 hit, -8 avo, 15 def, 1 res

General lv 18 (steel bow): 58 hp, 28 atk, 90 hit, 0 avo, 15 def, 1 res

Thunder mage lv 18 (elthunder): 44 hp, 26 atk, 108 hit, 8 avo, 2 def, 10 res

Muhammed lv 25 (hero lance): 65 hp, 32 atk, 116 hit, 10 avo, 19 def, 5 res

==========

Conote Castle

==========

Cavalier lv 18 (javelin): 48 hp, 24 atk, 82 hit, -14 avo, 11 def, 1 res

Ovo lv 22 (elthunder): 62 hp, 28 atk, 116 hit, 22 avo, 14 def, 11 res

General lv 18 (javelin): 58 hp, 26 atk, 80 hit, -20 avo, 15 def, 1 res

General lv 25 (silver lance): 65 hp, 37 atk, 106 hit, 0 avo, 19 def, 5 res

Thunder mage lv 18 (storm): 44 hp, 27 atk, 88 hit, -38 avo, 2 def, 10 res

Blume lv 25 (storm): 65 hp, 31 atk, 120 hit, 31 avo, 21 def, 16 res

Mage sisters (see previous chapter stats)

=========

Mease Castle

=========

Dragon Rider lv 16 (javelin): 51 hp, 25 atk, 78 hit, -18 avo, 12 def, 1 res

Dragon Knight lv 19 (steel lance): 59 hp, 31 atk, 104 hit, -2 avo, 16 def, 1 res

Note: I missed some of the Thracian bosses :(

Maikov lv 24 (silver lance): 64 hp, 37 atk, 106 hit, 0 avo, 19 def, 5 res

Freaking 31 atk Wyverns are borderline 3RKOing. Yes 37 atk generals kill him, but 37 atk is crazy anyway. For reference, HolynLakche at the same level [Move vs countering, there won't be a big difference between them at least] wins HP by 6, loses def by 1. That's not really enough to justify getting attacked a LOT more [Lester doesn't take counters on the player phase, and Canto means he gets attacked less on the enemy phase] so in a nutshell, you're grossly exaggerating Lester's durability "problem", because by your logic Holyn Swordkids must have awful durability.

These weak, inaccurate weapons can still kill him in a couple hits

If the definition of "a couple" turned into "4RKO which has meh hit", then yeah I guess. Their hit isn't in the triple digits and Lester DOES have avo, and 1 RN in this game means higher numbers miss more.

Lester is attacking one or two enemies per turn. Beating the Arena is iffy for him

Arena iffy uh what

Ranged attackers generally get weaker enemies, and Lester has a monopoly on the Hero Bow. He's fine in the arena.

Beating the Arena is iffy for him, while any half-assed Sety can storm through the Arena. He's not going to have so large of a level lead, especially since you've got to use other units. 60ish AVO is a lot more than some of your other units who'll be in the front. Sety may not get attacked.

If you're going to use "enemy magnet" as an argument you have to apply it both ways. Sety is not all that durable so he is still a high priority for enemies, and why does it matter if 60 avo is a lot relative to your team? It's not very reassuring when everything with a melee on the map two-shots you at 40~ hit rates.

Lester might not even ORKO Armour Knights or Generals.

If by After Thracia you mean C10?

Armor lv 30 (hero bow): 70 hp, 32 atk, 108 hit, 8 avo, 19 def, 3 res

Now 24 Lester has 35 atk with Hero Bow. 64 damage. Ah, but remember charge activation. 14 AS-4=10+53 HP/2=26 [does the game round up or down?] This is a whopping 36% Charge activation x2. Yes, he's reliant on skills, but remember that this is the ONLY enemy he needs it from. There's one with a hero lance who has much less HP/def [65/17] that he cleanly ORKOs Charge or not.

His class has a totally crap STR cap.

...25 str is crap?

lso, Lester doesn't have a monopoly on that Hero Bow. Faval has no Thief Ring/Bargain Ring, he doesn't have a lover, and Ichival is expensive.

Good sir, Faval's offense is just fine without Ichival. There's a reason he starts with Killer in his inventory. Secondly offense isn't even Faval's problem. It's no mount OR ability to counter which makes it a PITA to USE his awesome combat which is why he's not higher. Oh, and he's cleaning out arenas with Killer, so he doesn't care about funds. Ichival is nearly reserved for bosses only.

Johalva can use bows as well. Leaf, though he doesn't need it

Johalava is not always in play, and Leaf would like the ability to counterattack.

Furthermore it's a waste on Johalava unless you chuck him the pursuit ring too.

This is all fighting. Let's not forget that Sety has Valkyrie, Reserve, and Libro. Sety can stay on the second line equipping Lightning, and heal your units from behind. Sety doesn't have to be attacked either.

So he's healing your units from behind? Now he's not using any of his offense, either.

[Blademaster!]

Beating the Arena is iffy for him, while any half-assed Sety can storm through the Arena. He's not going to have so large of a level lead, especially since you've got to use other units. 60ish AVO is a lot more than some of your other units who'll be in the front. Sety may not get attacked.

If you're going to use "enemy magnet" as an argument you have to apply it both ways. Sety is not all that durable so he is still a high priority for enemies, and why does it matter if 60 avo is a lot relative to your team? It's not very reassuring when everything with a melee on the map two-shots you at 40~ hit rates.

Lester might not even ORKO Armour Knights or Generals.

If by After Thracia you mean C10?

lso, Lester doesn't have a monopoly on that Hero Bow. Faval has no Thief Ring/Bargain Ring, he doesn't have a lover, and Ichival is expensive.

Good sir, Faval's offense is just fine without Ichival. There's a reason he starts with Killer in his inventory. Secondly offense isn't even Faval's problem. It's no mount OR ability to counter which makes it a PITA to USE his awesome combat which is why he's not higher. Oh, and he's cleaning out arenas with Killer, so he doesn't care about funds. Ichival is nearly reserved for bosses only.

Johalva can use bows as well. Leaf, though he doesn't need it

Johalava is not always in play, and Leaf would like the ability to counterattack.

Furthermore it's a waste on Johalava unless you chuck him the pursuit ring too.

Sety is actually fairly durable. He has better def res and avo than Arthur so.....

Also, I think you meant chp 9, not chp 10.

Faval doesn't start with the killer bow. He starts with the silver bow.

Leaf can counter attack if he has bows. Remove allows you to change weapons in this game. That is why we give Arthur!Azel Bolganone.

Also, this is just an obsevation of mine, but I think the reason why people have a habit of mentioning Johalva when talking about bows is because, from what I've seen, people have a tendency to recruit him more often than Johan. It's not because he is nessicerally better, but because he is the only playable Fighter in FE4, and most people might be sick of using Axe/Great Knights after using Lex so much in Gen 1.

[Dat Nick]

Sety is actually fairly durable.

When he first joins? Anything but.

Faval doesn't start with the killer bow. He starts with the silver bow.

well that just helps my argument anyway

Edited October 14, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Eltoshen]

Lester...I dunno.

Something about how little he sees combat just bugs me. I think many people forget that Sety can fall back and be your healer if all else fails. He has no reason to be, though. Also, unlike Lester, Sety is actually a very reliable combat unit. Lester targets defense. Sety targets resistance. Lester can't retaliate against one-range and is slaughtered by mages. Sety can counter one-range and slaughters mages.

It seems rather simple. The only thing I can see Lester being useful for is tank-bait? And even then, it's rather limited, since he's not durable enough to take many hits. If anything, Lester being around basically means you're killing enemies slower since they'll always want to target him.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Rodykitty]

A durable bow unit means that you aren't limited to what they can do on the player phase. If you need them to attack something, they can and you don't have to wall them.

[Renall]

I don't know anyone who regularly takes Johalva. Maybe some of you do, but I've taken him twice and Johan 5+ times. Why would you not take the guy with the horse?

EDIT: This is not a tier argument regarding either of them by the way, just responding to the observation that a lot of people seem to take Johalva. I was surprised to hear that.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Renall

[Fei Mao]

I don't know anyone who regularly takes Johalva. Maybe some of you do, but I've taken him twice and Johan 5+ times. Why would you not take the guy with the horse?

EDIT: This is not a tier argument regarding either of them by the way, just responding to the observation that a lot of people seem to take Johalva. I was surprised to hear that.

I guess some prefer better stats>horses or bows upon promotion>more stats. I haven't use Johan once, but dosen't he have more trouble getting through the arena than Johavala does? (considering both have hero axes)

[Eltoshen]

Yeah, it's easier for Johalva to get through the arena.

[Dat Nick]

Something about how little he sees combat just bugs me.

But how little Sety doesn't see combat at first is just A-OK?

Lester targets defense. Sety targets resistance.

Lester attacks four times. Sety attacks twice. Nobody cares since there is a grand total of ONE enemy type Sety can consistently ORKO that Lester can't ORKO in the sample I provided.

Lester can't retaliate against one-range and is slaughtered by mages.

Lester gets attacked by one range less often since Canto, and slaughtered by mages? uhh? Hero Bow kills mages before they counter. Furthermore, give me one physical unit NOT raped by magic [without holy weapons], if you want to play that game.

Sety can counter one-range and slaughters mages.

Earlygame Sety doesn't WANT to counter 1-range. Hi 40% 2RKOs in a one RN system. And Lester slaughters mages too, plus mages have low mov so they're not hard to kill and canto away from. Moot point.

And even then, it's rather limited, since he's not durable enough to take many hits.

okay then

I guess swordkids have really awful durability then, and I guess Sety @ jointime must suck beyond belief. Since, you know, Lester is more durable than both of them.

"hey prove this shit don't just say it you fucking hypocrite"

I did, scroll up.

Furthermore having him tank is stupid. He can take a hit, but he can't counter so you have no reason to want to do it if it can be avoided. Well, I guess he could against bow heavy clusters.

also, Lester is only useful for tank bait? The fuck is this shit? Pursuit+Hero Bow on a horse is suddenly useless? That's restricted to being a hit tank? Can you people please stop sandbagging Lester? That'd be awesome, thanks.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Athena's Chest