Best characters for their respected classes

[Candlejack]

@RedFox:

You have to admit Colm IS better.

[Original Alear]

It doesn't. At least it never has before. It's hard to credit units you don't have full control over.

Even though you can't control who tibarn attacks, I would think you could give him some points for helping ground units pass over trap tiles. If you target a trap space you plan on passing the turn before, ground units can move through it w/out fainting. This makes the chapter go a lot faster. Of course you do have sigrun and tanith to cover those tiles, but I think it's better to have a unit you don't control covering them (cuz I'm a CEXP freak?).

This might not matter at all for tiers, but if someone wants to count it for "best" (which could mean just about anything - I might say hector is the best lord because he's got the best sense of humor) they can if they want.

Wait, what? Unless you are talking about Sothe (which doesn't seem likely based on what you said), last time I checked Assassins had better crit than Trueblades (Unless they use a killing edge). And how is the FE10 Assassin class slightly worse than the Trueblade class? 5 more Def > 5 more avoid and hit. Also, Knives can be forged, so I don't see how Volke wouldn't be able to use forges.

They are talking about FE9 Volke VS FE9 SMs dude.

However, we also have to remember that no sane person uses Sothe in FE9 unless they're doing a transfer run, and keys are rare enough that you basically need Volke in chapters 13, 18, 21, 22, and 27 if you're hoping to get all the treasure, and since Volke is the only viable thief, he gets credit for all that stuff, as well as whatever else he can steal (physic access? higher level tomes?) which make other characters better.

I don't know for sure about that. Sothe might suck but I'd imagine he's pretty useful in 22 and 27 for shaving turns off (since there are treasure chests on opposite sides of the map). You might be thinking "no wai is he combat viable" but I think keeping him out of enemy range should keep him useful. I'm not saying Sothe=Volke, I'm just saying Sothe would be serviceable for thief utility because you don't need to be a good combat unit.

It just helps to have a thief unit who can fight fairly well, for the same reason it has helped in other FEs. But that doesn't mean sothe isn't "viable", and that Volke's utility goes up because sothe is weak. Sothe is just inferior.

or perhaps even Mist (for 4-4 healing, when it's most needed).

Since mist has a free crown anyway, why does she need a paragon to heal better? I've also found Ike does perfectly fine without paragon considering his ridiculously good enemy phase during part 4, so I've never needed a paragon for him.

That's 15 staff uses, and assuming paragon and an even balance of mend and physic (average 30 exp per use), she gets 4 levels.

Considering money is not really an issue now, why is she not using a recover? I'm also pretty sure she could snatch some kills on this chapter for more than 30 EXP on some turns, so I'm not sure why she wouldn't get any considering she's flying. Finally, I don't know what a fair vigor amount would be but she's probably going to have the easiest time getting vigored after tibarn thanks to 9 move canto flying.

and 5+ in 4-3, the most likely route for him.

Why are crossbows in 4-3, a desert chapter, worrying a flier? They are no issue when the units only move 2 spaces each turn; Jill or Haar - or maybe even the BK - can take care of them. I would say the one warrior in 4-P (near the bridge?) is a bigger threat than all 5 in 4-3.

[Florete]

I must be an idiot getting into a debate with RFoF, but here I am. I feel real stupid right about now, but it's time I got some sense smacked into me... It's been nice knowing me... :(

You shouldn't feel stupid. I might disagree with you, but at least I can tell you know what you're talking about. That's more than I can say for some people.

However, we also have to remember that no sane person uses Sothe in FE9 unless they're doing a transfer run, and keys are rare enough that you basically need Volke in chapters 13, 18, 21, 22, and 27 if you're hoping to get all the treasure, and since Volke is the only viable thief, he gets credit for all that stuff, as well as whatever else he can steal (physic access? higher level tomes?) which make other characters better. I'll admit, Sothe is almost necessary to get through 1-2 through 1-5, but the game is definitely playable without him once other battle utility in part 1 however, after which you've likely got at least 2 of Jill, Nolan, and Aran plus Zihark and Volug to get through part 3 DB. By part 3, he's got nothing to steal, and though he's got the treasures in 4-3 (assuming another unit isn't getting them too), his battle utility has dropped significantly. The only mastery which doesn't all-but-1HKO doesn't help either, nor does a relatively late promotion which all but guarantees no 20-20-20 for him.

No, Sothe is perfectly viable as a Thief in FE9. The only advantages Volke really has are somewhat better durability (mostly irrelevant), chance of being an okay fighter, and enough Spd to steal a few more things. When it comes to the thieving part of things, the two are practically identical, and thus if you just need a Thief Sothe will suffice. Therefore, Volke does not get full credit for everything.

However, even removing the possibility of Sothe, Volke does not get all the credit because of Chest Keys. I made a post regarding what Volke can really be credited for here. It turns out to be not so much:

Depending on the time we get them, Volke cannot be credited for the ~12 most valuable things he can get from chests. Why? Because that's how many extra uses of Chest Keys we have. In other words, if I don't use Volke or Sothe, these are the items I'll get anyway, because I want the most valuable items. This is the number of Chest Keys we have at certain parts of the game

Until 16 - 4 (Chapter 7 lacks Volke, but I'll list the items)

16-21 - 2 more

22-26 - 4 more

27-F - 2 more

So basically, until 16, we have 4 uses. On 16 we get 2 more, and etc.

The list of Chest items at those parts of the game:

From 10-16 (4 Chest Key uses): (7) Barrier, Armorslayer, Miracle, (10) Javelin, Short Axe, Steel Lance, Counter, Statue Frag, (13) Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, Longsword, Elfire, Occult, Energy Drop, Speedwings.

The only items in that list I'd consider particularly valuable are the Energy Drop, Speedwing, Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, Barrier, and maybe the Elfire, Occult, and Statue Frag. The top four I'd say are Energy Drop, Speedwing, and two of the Killer Bow, Laguz Axe, and Barrier (Although I'm pretty sure it's called Ward in this game). I can't really pick between those last three, but let's move on before making any decisions.

From 16-21 (2 more uses): (16) Full Guard, Dracoshield, Bolting, Physic, Ashera Icon, Silver Lance, (18) Recover, Silence, Wrath, (21) Thoron, Corrosion, Talisman, Energy Drop, Stiletto, Parity, Brave Sword, Master Seal.

The most valuable items here I'd say are the Full Guard, Dracoshield, Physic, Energy Drop, Brave Sword, and maybe the Thoron, Bolting, and Silver Lance. +2 Luck and Res aren't particularly amazing, those skills aren't particularly awesome, we shouldn't need a Master Seal at this point, and if we're not even using Volke we definitely don't care about the Stiletto.

From 22-26 (4 more uses): (22) Spirit Dust, Nosferatu, Sleep, Bolganone, Tomahawk, Silver Bow.

All are fairly good, but none of them are spectacular either.

27 to the end (2 more uses): (27) Bolganone, Resolve, Laguz Axe, Fortify, Spear, Silver Lance, Physic.

Resolve would have been better earlier, but isn't too special now. Same with most of that stuff save the Fortify.

So what are we getting? Well, I'd say our first four Chest Key uses can go to the Energy Drop, Speedwings, Ward, and Laguz Axe (Since we're more likely to have any Axe user in play than any bow user).

The next bit is more tricky, since we have only 2 uses for a good number of decent items. The Brave Sword and Physic are probably the best. And the items acquired earlier were probably better to get then than waiting for these, so those are still in as well.

And then we get 6 more uses for the last 13 items. I personally would take the Spirit Dust, Tomahawk, Fortify, Physic, and be left wondering about the other 2 I can take.

So Volke's/Sothe's list has been cut down to this:

(Only Volke) (10) Javelin, Short Axe, Steel Lance, Counter, Statue Frag.

(Both) (13) Killer Bow, Longsword, Elfire, Occult, (16) Full Guard, Dracoshield, Bolting, Ashera Icon, Silver Lance, (18) Recover, Silence, Wrath, (21) Thoron, Corrosion, Talisman, Energy Drop, Stiletto, Parity, Master Seal.

(All but 2 of these) (22) Nosferatu, Sleep, Bolganone, Silver Bow, (27) Bolganone, Resolve, Laguz Axe, Spear, Silver Lance.

So that's all you can really credit Sothe/Volke for. I'd even question getting anything but the Statue Frag in chapter 10 if you complete it in 12 turns, and a lot of that stuff near the end will likely be redundant.

And note that this was the stuff I cut off. Feel free to change something if you feel something else would be more valuable:

Energy Drop, Speedwings, Laguz Axe, Brave Sword, Physic, Spirit Dust, Tomahawk, Fortify, Physic, and two more at the end. In other words, this is the stuff I'll be getting whether I play a Thief or not, so neither can be credited for it. This is not even counting the possibility of killing Ravens and enemy Thieves after they've gotten something from a Chest, which happens in a lot of cases, but I can't be arsed to go that in-depth unless I really need to.

Note: Volke cannot get Ward anyway, so that's one less Key use he has to compete with if we get it.

While Elincia is the best healer, I'd rather give my paragons to Jill (who's got arguably the best set of caps in the game), Ike (to help him level for the final chapters), Mordy (defense tank), or perhaps even Mist (for 4-4 healing, when it's most needed). But let's assume that she gets one anyway (for the sake of argument or some genius reason you'll provide later).

But of course. Jill is probably viable. Ike doesn't really need it because he should be raping anyway, Mordecai and Mist don't have the growths to make good use of it (caps as well in Mist's case, and Mordy just isn't as good anymore because durability is much less of an issue by now). Elincia has monster growths and makes great use of the extra levels from a map of Paragon use, mostly due to Amiti and how she can use it when she quads.

She's getting no support at this point, except for Tibarn, which is a heaven X heaven anyway.

She can get Lucia very fast.

Well, she's not an attacker, that's for sure. She's facing 50+ displayed from everything that is not a dragon, and 2RKOed by everything that's not a hawk or 30 SPD raven (32 SPD doubles her). Thankfully, she has stun, but she's only quadding dragons and tigers. With 39 Atk, she's 10-12HKO'ing dragons, 3HKO'ing cats, 4HKO'ing tigers, and 3-4HKOing the birds. In other words, don't count on her ORKOing anything that's not a tiger (or maybe a cat). And without Tibarn, she's going to be on the front lines. With those stats? No, not happening.

Who said she needs to be on the front line? We have other units in the map. A flier like her is only really necessary for a quick Izuka kill, which should be easy to do with Reyson.

Also, she'll level up with the map, so her performance will get better. Laguz give a lot of experience.

Well, there is one in 4-P and 5+ in 4-3, the most likely route for him. And both of those levels have a fair amount of regular snipers as well. Sure, he might get nullify, but Tibarn will take it from him in part 4 since he's gone from single weakness to indestructible beast... I mean bird.

I don't think giving Nullify to Tibarn is really the way to go. There just isn't enough that threatens him. Crossbow enemies can't OHKO him, and even in the event that they hit him, it's very unlikely any enemy can both hit and do enough damage to kill him before he can be healed.

Also, I'd like to know who else you plan on taking to fight with Tibarn. Besides your healer Elincia, you've got Lucia (bad), Tauroneo (inadequate), Ranulf (a cat), Pelleas (need I say more?), and Geoffrey, Bastian and Volke for 4-5. Not exactly the cream of the tier list crop.[/color]

This is why the game allows us to choose other units to take to these maps. Even so, the only units whose performances are really bad are Pelleas and Geoffrey. Lucia is okay with some training, a critforge, and an Elincia support, Tauroneo needs some leveling and possibly a Crown to be decent, Ranulf just needs to be transformed (and since 4-5 is 98% 1 range enemies, grassing isn't an issue), Volke is a pretty good fighter as is (and has access to Beastkillers), and Bastian just needs to be walled. Even with durability concerns we already have 2 forced healers to this route. Don't forget we can still send fliers here. I don't think all of Jill, Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, and Tanith (depending on who's in play, of course) are being sent to 4-3.

However, the real win for Janaff is his availability. He's very possibly your best unit from the moment he shows up until the end of part 3 (the only competition for "better" being a favored, aka doubling Haar and Ike). He doubles literally everything, OHKOs very often, is extremely durable, and has 9 move and Canto. Lack of 2 range and Bow weakness are the only real issues, but they're easier to handle than some other people's problems. Bow weakness especially is largely covered by the fact that he can just kill them on player phase, and the biggest issue with no 2 range is taking counters, but Janaff very rarely cares about that.

So Janaff has 5 maps of being at least in your top 3 units before Tibarn even exists. Now, Tibarn likely wins overall in part 4, but the win is not very big because Janaff is still good and can also help out in more difficult maps.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I must be an idiot getting into a debate with RFoF, but here I am. I feel real stupid right about now, but it's time I got some sense smacked into me... It's been nice knowing me... :(

You shouldn't feel stupid. I might disagree with you, but at least I can tell you know what you're talking about. That's more than I can say for some people.

Well, I never expected to come close to beating you in a debate (and, admittedly, I'm not going to here either). At least you acknowledge me. That's got to account for something. :)

While Elincia is the best healer, I'd rather give my paragons to Jill (who's got arguably the best set of caps in the game), Ike (to help him level for the final chapters), Mordy (defense tank), or perhaps even Mist (for 4-4 healing, when it's most needed). But let's assume that she gets one anyway (for the sake of argument or some genius reason you'll provide later).

But of course. Jill is probably viable. Ike doesn't really need it because he should be raping anyway, Mordecai and Mist don't have the growths to make good use of it (caps as well in Mist's case, and Mordy just isn't as good anymore because durability is much less of an issue by now). Elincia has monster growths and makes great use of the extra levels from a map of Paragon use, mostly due to Amiti and how she can use it when she quads.

There are three paragon scrolls in the game. After accounting for my blatant favoritism for sages, Jill's going to get one of them. Nolan is another viable candidate for a second. The third can go to several other people too. While Elincia does have a great set of growths to take advantage of paragon, she's either going to be a healbot (in which case the extra stats don't mean as much - a couple extra range for physic and a few points more with a non-recover staff), or a fighter (and I've already stated that she's not exactly cut out for that role).

She's getting no support at this point, except for Tibarn, which is a heaven X heaven anyway.

She can get Lucia very fast.

True, and earth is good, but now we have range issues. 4-2 has a lot of thickets which slow Lucia down, and 4-5 is a big swamp. Given Elincia's flying, we're not exactly going to want to keep her next to Lucia all the time when she could be doing other stuff as well. Plus, that's wasting support time since Lucia isn't going to the tower while Elincia has a very good chance of doing so.

Well, she's not an attacker, that's for sure. She's facing 50+ displayed from everything that is not a dragon, and 2RKOed by everything that's not a hawk or 30 SPD raven (32 SPD doubles her). Thankfully, she has stun, but she's only quadding dragons and tigers. With 39 Atk, she's 10-12HKO'ing dragons, 3HKO'ing cats, 4HKO'ing tigers, and 3-4HKOing the birds. In other words, don't count on her ORKOing anything that's not a tiger (or maybe a cat). And without Tibarn, she's going to be on the front lines. With those stats? No, not happening.

Who said she needs to be on the front line? We have other units in the map. A flier like her is only really necessary for a quick Izuka kill, which should be easy to do with Reyson.

Also, she'll level up with the map, so her performance will get better. Laguz give a lot of experience.

Indeed, 10 extra per strike compared to the same leveled beorc. But if she's not fighting much, she's not going to be gaining all that experience. A couple of levels of staff EXP will obviously help her, but it's not going to keep dragons and tigers from 2HKOing her. All it really does is keep the 32 SPD ravens from doubling and push some cats to 3HKOing. Still not great durability for a fighter. Without Tibarn, you're going to have maybe one other flyer to take care of the birds. Jill and Ulki are the most likely candidates here, and while good, each have other problems (Jill might not have enough levels and Ulki has the whole transformation issue...)

Well, there is one in 4-P and 5+ in 4-3, the most likely route for him. And both of those levels have a fair amount of regular snipers as well. Sure, he might get nullify, but Tibarn will take it from him in part 4 since he's gone from single weakness to indestructible beast... I mean bird.

I don't think giving Nullify to Tibarn is really the way to go. There just isn't enough that threatens him. Crossbow enemies can't OHKO him, and even in the event that they hit him, it's very unlikely any enemy can both hit and do enough damage to kill him before he can be healed.

Well, at base level transformed, he's reduced to 14 HP by a crossbow. I'm not so comfortable with letting a barrage of enemies in 4-2 get near him. He's got decent avoid, but he's quite possibly in OHKO range. Plus, they've still got 50+% displayed on him, so he's not exactly avoiding the crossbows all the time either.

Also, I'd like to know who else you plan on taking to fight with Tibarn. Besides your healer Elincia, you've got Lucia (bad), Tauroneo (inadequate), Ranulf (a cat), Pelleas (need I say more?), and Geoffrey, Bastian and Volke for 4-5. Not exactly the cream of the tier list crop.[/color]

This is why the game allows us to choose other units to take to these maps. Even so, the only units whose performances are really bad are Pelleas and Geoffrey. Lucia is okay with some training, a critforge, and an Elincia support, Tauroneo needs some leveling and possibly a Crown to be decent, Ranulf just needs to be transformed (and since 4-5 is 98% 1 range enemies, grassing isn't an issue), Volke is a pretty good fighter as is (and has access to Beastkillers), and Bastian just needs to be walled. Even with durability concerns we already have 2 forced healers to this route. Don't forget we can still send fliers here. I don't think all of Jill, Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, and Tanith (depending on who's in play, of course) are being sent to 4-3.

However, the real win for Janaff is his availability. He's very possibly your best unit from the moment he shows up until the end of part 3 (the only competition for "better" being a favored, aka doubling Haar and Ike). He doubles literally everything, OHKOs very often, is extremely durable, and has 9 move and Canto. Lack of 2 range and Bow weakness are the only real issues, but they're easier to handle than some other people's problems. Bow weakness especially is largely covered by the fact that he can just kill them on player phase, and the biggest issue with no 2 range is taking counters, but Janaff very rarely cares about that.

So Janaff has 5 maps of being at least in your top 3 units before Tibarn even exists. Now, Tibarn likely wins overall in part 4, but the win is not very big because Janaff is still good and can also help out in more difficult maps.

I'll talk about this last part this afternoon since I need to head to class now.

EDIT: Since this post is basically a text wall already, I'll finish on the next post.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Fayt Zelpher]

This is why the game allows us to choose other units to take to these maps. Even so, the only units whose performances are really bad are Pelleas and Geoffrey. Lucia is okay with some training, a critforge, and an Elincia support, Tauroneo needs some leveling and possibly a Crown to be decent, Ranulf just needs to be transformed (and since 4-5 is 98% 1 range enemies, grassing isn't an issue), Volke is a pretty good fighter as is (and has access to Beastkillers), and Bastian just needs to be walled. Even with durability concerns we already have 2 forced healers to this route. Don't forget we can still send fliers here. I don't think all of Jill, Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, and Tanith (depending on who's in play, of course) are being sent to 4-3.

However, the real win for Janaff is his availability. He's very possibly your best unit from the moment he shows up until the end of part 3 (the only competition for "better" being a favored, aka doubling Haar and Ike). He doubles literally everything, OHKOs very often, is extremely durable, and has 9 move and Canto. Lack of 2 range and Bow weakness are the only real issues, but they're easier to handle than some other people's problems. Bow weakness especially is largely covered by the fact that he can just kill them on player phase, and the biggest issue with no 2 range is taking counters, but Janaff very rarely cares about that.

So Janaff has 5 maps of being at least in your top 3 units before Tibarn even exists. Now, Tibarn likely wins overall in part 4, but the win is not very big because Janaff is still good and can also help out in more difficult maps.

Alright, I'll go through the units you're likely to have on Tibarn's group.

Elincia (your healer who can also fight somewhat)

Lucia (she's underleveled (a plus) but you're likely to have several tier 3 units at this point, so if BEXP is limited, I'd rather focus on characters I'm taking to the tower.)

Tauroneo (The Bull is a prime candidate for a crown, and has the defense to tank after that, but suffers severe movement issues with the 4-2 thickets and the 4-5 swamp)

Geoffrey (He's a silver knight. Enough said)

Pelleas (He's got a separate King Daein tier below bottom tier - at least Oliver can use staves right away.)

Ranulf (He's got speed, but suffers from cat gauge issues. You might not even be able to keep him transformed all the time, and he lacks the concrete durability to take hits once he reverts. Grass might help, but you'll sacrifice your player phase to do so.)

Of the good characters that are likely to see action at this point:

Nolan, Zihark, and Volug - probably with Micaiah since their Earth affinity will help balance Micaiah's lack of stars during her levels.

Mia already has an Ike support, and she's not leaving him.

Mordecai needs to go with Ike to tank in 4-4, since he's the king of concrete durability. He's probably got >40 def at this point and an A support give 2 more defense (or 3 if a defense support). Mist is helped greatly by the 3 atk and def, so Mordecai needs to go with Ike.

Calill is the only reasonably viable sage (Soren is forced with Ike), and is likely going with Micaiah since she won't lose movement range. Most flyers will go with her for the same reason.

That leaves for Tibarn's group:

Nephenee, Aran, Ulki, Shinon, Gatrie, and one of Jill and Haar in terms of solid units. However, Ike hasn't taken his units. He needs Shinon, Gatrie, and we'll put Janaff here as well (+5 vision and high avoid is good for him here. Flying is another benefit, since he's likely the only good flyer you've got with Ike).

We'll assume that you've got the required units plus Neph, Aran, Ulki, and Jill. That's a solid team, but Ulki is likely still at A strike here since Janaff was fed more kills, meaning that he's not going to ORKO much. Tear helps, but he still needs a couple of levels to get there. Jill's probably just starting tier 3 or is very near tier 3, getting BEXP to finish her tier 2 levels before 4-2. Aran is a tank, but has such speed issues that he's not going to double and ORKO much at all without a lot of BEXP, and while one of the best candidates for it (to help speed and HP in tier 2), we don't have an unlimited supply of BEXP, and I doubt you're assuming EM where that's not the case (I'm not). Even on NM, you are still going to want to pump BEXP on Neph, Jill, Haar (for speed), and others as well as Aran. All this means that unless Jill and Ulki are tag teaming on units, we've got a lot of weakened but living units left. Elincia is likely our only healer here besides our medicine, so she won't always be able to pick off kills in the swamp. Tibarn, on the other hand, easily kills everything except for red dragons and they don't move anywhere quickly anyway. He's also got his 4 stars, and therefore makes every unit better in his part 4.

On to Janaff, who went with Ike. Ike has: himself, Nailah, Janaff, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Mist, Mordecai, Soren, and Titania. Rhys probably also went here, (and Laura went with Micaiah). The strategy is simple: Nailah and Ike in front, Mia three units behind Ike for support, Shinon snipes on the right while Gatrie tanks over there (they're a fast support that gives defense - improving their tanking abilities a lot). Mordecai and Mist work on the weaker left side, and Janaff is useful but hardly needed. Rafiel can do whatever...

On to the hardest part of part 4, 4-4. Nailah and Ike go up the platform immediately above the GM's and kill the enemies while the LEA retreats. Gatrie and Mordy guard the right chokepoint, since their defense means they can take several hits. Mist cantos to pick up kills, Shinon snipes at 3-range, Mia stays near Ike, and Soren is very careful. Janaff is probably going near Heather to help her get the treasures. Again, helpful, but not nearly as much as Tibarn will be, since he's going to be much stronger than his units will be, while Janaff will only be on par with his other units.

Back to part 3:

Arguably very helpful in 3-8, and he does help with the swamp in 3-7, but his impact is diminished since he's not being recruited until turn 3 or 4. 3-10 is a good map with lot of enemies, but there are quite a few snipers here. He got better in 3-11 due to flying over pitfalls, but there are still a ton of snipers (not to mention that the boss easily OHKO's him). Plus, Tibarn and co. diminish his effectiveness here by taking out quite a few units. You're also required to bring Sigrun and Tanith, and no sane person will leave Haar behind here, so again, he's not doing as much as you might think. On to 3-E. This is probably his best map, but there are so many 1-2 range enemies here that he starts spending so much time grassing and so little time actually attacking. Not only that, but also the partner units are going to help a bunch, and the map is over at 80 kills...

Of course, Tibarn will easily be making it to the tower. Besides the required units, I've got the royals (5 units), Jill, Haar, Mordecai, another healer (Elincia, probably), and one other unit (Neph for wishblade, most likely). If you can't convince me why Janaff should go to the tower instead of one of the other units named, Tibarn gets all 5 tower levels to add to his 'score' while Janaff doesn't. In summary, I'm easily willing to say that Janaff is a viable unit, and a very good unit, but not quite as useful as Tibarn is.

[Shadow Mir]

Besides the required units, I've got the royals (5 units), Jill, Haar, Mordecai, another healer (Elincia, probably), and one other unit (Neph for wishblade, most likely).

Sorry, but I fail to see any reason why Mordecai should go to the tower.

Calill is the only reasonably viable sage (Soren is forced with Ike), and is likely going with Micaiah since she won't lose movement range. Most flyers will go with her for the same reason.

Or she can stay with Tibarn and pwn some Feral Ones.

[Anouleth]

This is why the game allows us to choose other units to take to these maps. Even so, the only units whose performances are really bad are Pelleas and Geoffrey. Lucia is okay with some training, a critforge, and an Elincia support, Tauroneo needs some leveling and possibly a Crown to be decent, Ranulf just needs to be transformed (and since 4-5 is 98% 1 range enemies, grassing isn't an issue), Volke is a pretty good fighter as is (and has access to Beastkillers), and Bastian just needs to be walled. Even with durability concerns we already have 2 forced healers to this route. Don't forget we can still send fliers here. I don't think all of Jill, Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, and Tanith (depending on who's in play, of course) are being sent to 4-3.

However, the real win for Janaff is his availability. He's very possibly your best unit from the moment he shows up until the end of part 3 (the only competition for "better" being a favored, aka doubling Haar and Ike). He doubles literally everything, OHKOs very often, is extremely durable, and has 9 move and Canto. Lack of 2 range and Bow weakness are the only real issues, but they're easier to handle than some other people's problems. Bow weakness especially is largely covered by the fact that he can just kill them on player phase, and the biggest issue with no 2 range is taking counters, but Janaff very rarely cares about that.

So Janaff has 5 maps of being at least in your top 3 units before Tibarn even exists. Now, Tibarn likely wins overall in part 4, but the win is not very big because Janaff is still good and can also help out in more difficult maps.

Alright, I'll go through the units you're likely to have on Tibarn's group.

Elincia (your healer who can also fight somewhat)

Lucia (she's underleveled (a plus) but you're likely to have several tier 3 units at this point, so if BEXP is limited, I'd rather focus on characters I'm taking to the tower.)

Tauroneo (The Bull is a prime candidate for a crown, and has the defense to tank after that, but suffers severe movement issues with the 4-2 thickets and the 4-5 swamp)

Geoffrey (He's a silver knight. Enough said)

Pelleas (He's got a separate King Daein tier below bottom tier - at least Oliver can use staves right away.)

Ranulf (He's got speed, but suffers from cat gauge issues. You might not even be able to keep him transformed all the time, and he lacks the concrete durability to take hits once he reverts. Grass might help, but you'll sacrifice your player phase to do so.)

Of the good characters that are likely to see action at this point:

Nolan, Zihark, and Volug - probably with Micaiah since their Earth affinity will help balance Micaiah's lack of stars during her levels.

Mia already has an Ike support, and she's not leaving him.

Mordecai needs to go with Ike to tank in 4-4, since he's the king of concrete durability. He's probably got >40 def at this point and an A support give 2 more defense (or 3 if a defense support). Mist is helped greatly by the 3 atk and def, so Mordecai needs to go with Ike.

Calill is the only reasonably viable sage (Soren is forced with Ike), and is likely going with Micaiah since she won't lose movement range. Most flyers will go with her for the same reason.

That leaves for Tibarn's group:

Nephenee, Aran, Ulki, Shinon, Gatrie, and one of Jill and Haar in terms of solid units. However, Ike hasn't taken his units. He needs Shinon, Gatrie, and we'll put Janaff here as well (+5 vision and high avoid is good for him here. Flying is another benefit, since he's likely the only good flyer you've got with Ike).

We'll assume that you've got the required units plus Neph, Aran, Ulki, and Jill. That's a solid team, but Ulki is likely still at A strike here since Janaff was fed more kills, meaning that he's not going to ORKO much. Tear helps, but he still needs a couple of levels to get there. Jill's probably just starting tier 3 or is very near tier 3, getting BEXP to finish her tier 2 levels before 4-2. Aran is a tank, but has such speed issues that he's not going to double and ORKO much at all without a lot of BEXP, and while one of the best candidates for it (to help speed and HP in tier 2), we don't have an unlimited supply of BEXP, and I doubt you're assuming EM where that's not the case (I'm not). Even on NM, you are still going to want to pump BEXP on Neph, Jill, Haar (for speed), and others as well as Aran. All this means that unless Jill and Ulki are tag teaming on units, we've got a lot of weakened but living units left. Elincia is likely our only healer here besides our medicine, so she won't always be able to pick off kills in the swamp. Tibarn, on the other hand, easily kills everything except for red dragons and they don't move anywhere quickly anyway. He's also got his 4 stars, and therefore makes every unit better in his part 4.

On to Janaff, who went with Ike. Ike has: himself, Nailah, Janaff, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Mist, Mordecai, Soren, and Titania. Rhys probably also went here, (and Laura went with Micaiah). The strategy is simple: Nailah and Ike in front, Mia three units behind Ike for support, Shinon snipes on the right while Gatrie tanks over there (they're a fast support that gives defense - improving their tanking abilities a lot). Mordecai and Mist work on the weaker left side, and Janaff is useful but hardly needed. Rafiel can do whatever...

On to the hardest part of part 4, 4-4. Nailah and Ike go up the platform immediately above the GM's and kill the enemies while the LEA retreats. Gatrie and Mordy guard the right chokepoint, since their defense means they can take several hits. Mist cantos to pick up kills, Shinon snipes at 3-range, Mia stays near Ike, and Soren is very careful. Janaff is probably going near Heather to help her get the treasures. Again, helpful, but not nearly as much as Tibarn will be, since he's going to be much stronger than his units will be, while Janaff will only be on par with his other units.

Back to part 3:

Arguably very helpful in 3-8, and he does help with the swamp in 3-7, but his impact is diminished since he's not being recruited until turn 3 or 4. 3-10 is a good map with lot of enemies, but there are quite a few snipers here. He got better in 3-11 due to flying over pitfalls, but there are still a ton of snipers (not to mention that the boss easily OHKO's him). Plus, Tibarn and co. diminish his effectiveness here by taking out quite a few units. You're also required to bring Sigrun and Tanith, and no sane person will leave Haar behind here, so again, he's not doing as much as you might think. On to 3-E. This is probably his best map, but there are so many 1-2 range enemies here that he starts spending so much time grassing and so little time actually attacking. Not only that, but also the partner units are going to help a bunch, and the map is over at 80 kills...

Of course, Tibarn will easily be making it to the tower. Besides the required units, I've got the royals (5 units), Jill, Haar, Mordecai, another healer (Elincia, probably), and one other unit (Neph for wishblade, most likely). If you can't convince me why Janaff should go to the tower instead of one of the other units named, Tibarn gets all 5 tower levels to add to his 'score' while Janaff doesn't. In summary, I'm easily willing to say that Janaff is a viable unit, and a very good unit, but not quite as useful as Tibarn is.

Uhh, why is Calill going with Micaiah instead of the route where she can kill laguz super easily and get ridiculous amounts of CEXP (which she needs)? With Mickey and Sanaki, you have more than enough mages in Silver Army. And I don't see why Nolan/Zihark/Volug are going on Mickey's route either, when they have crap move in the desert. I think you gave way too many units to Ike as well, he's getting Gatrie, Shinon, Janaff, Mia, and Shinon, and he already has himself, Titania and Nailah. No wonder you say that Janaff isn't as helpful, since you put him on the team with all the other great units, the team with the least need for flying units. And you split up Janaff/Ulki as well, when they should be supporting each other.

And if we're using Ulki, why is he A strike? Getting him to S should be one of our highest priorities since he needs it to counteract his substandard strength. This take 70 hits, which is 35 rounds of combat since he doubles everything, which is pretty doable in 5 chapters. And he'll easily have Tear as well, since he only needs 2 levels to get it and the game isn't exactly stingy with Satori Signs. So yeah, Hawk Army is only doing badly in your example because you heavily sandbagged it by giving it only 4 units, 2 of which are a bit underlevelled and only 1 unit that's actually good. And Elincia isn't the only healer either, since we can easily bring Rhys or Laura along to Physic and we have Bastian in 4-5.

As for Janaff's part 3 performance, it's nothing short of great. You won't be fighting until turn 3 or 4 anyway because of the swamp in 3-7. You say there are 'lots of Snipers' in 3-10 - there are actually 2, and only 1 Crossbow user, which you'll be taking out immediately anyway to protect Elincia. And even the Steel Bow Paladins do badly against Janaff - if Janaff has B Ulki, they 3HKO him with 30 display hit. In 3-11, again, only 1 Crossbow, and Janaff doesn't need to fight the boss to be useful. In 3-E, most enemies are 1-range, maybe 1 out of every 4 has a 2-range weapon.

And why wouldn't we bring Janaff to Endgame if we've been using him? So we can bring Haar, who struggles to double Generals? Or Mordecai, who averages 26 speed at level 40 and gets 2RKOed by Wind Spirits without countering?

[Narga_Rocks]

I must be an idiot getting into a debate with RFoF, but here I am. I feel real stupid right about now, but it's time I got some sense smacked into me... It's been nice knowing me... :(

And you get me too!

There are three paragon scrolls in the game. After accounting for my blatant favoritism for sages, Jill's going to get one of them. Nolan is another viable candidate for a second. The third can go to several other people too. While Elincia does have a great set of growths to take advantage of paragon, she's either going to be a healbot (in which case the extra stats don't mean as much - a couple extra range for physic and a few points more with a non-recover staff), or a fighter (and I've already stated that she's not exactly cut out for that role).

Have you seen Elincia's growths? It takes very little time for her to reach enough spd and str to ORKO everything in 4-2. Like, after about turn 5 she'll be ORKOing if you gave her Paragon like a good boy. Amiti is that good. Also, ORKOs ravens, too. If you really pour on the levels, she can double (quad) cats and hawks in 4-5 as well, and thus ORKO them, but that's not necessary for her to be good. 2 shots at Adept or Cancel or Stun on player phase if you give her Adept + Cancel (best user of them in the game due to unlimited brave) is quite great.

Also, thanks to that Paragon in 4-2, you can send her to the tower and she'll be a great offensive force. ORKO everything but red dragons and some generals, and on those generals she has 4 shots at stun anyway. Wyrmslayer access as well. And when you just don't need her to kill something she can heal, too. She's one of the best units you can take to endgame. Arguably better than loading your team with 5 royals. Maybe one or two single Royals is better than her, but she's definitely better than the 5th royal.

Also, more bang for your buck. You have 3 paragons and lots of characters that want them, sure, but her str + spd growth combination and her Amiti basically means that what you receive from giving her Paragon is >> what any other unit gets. Elincia > Jill, Nolan in endgame anyway, at least if you properly level all those characters. If you have a choice of not putting paragon on Jill or not putting paragon on Elincia, guess which choice builds the better team? Also, it's one chapter. Just 4-2. That's still 5 other chapters worth of paragon you get there. Jill can have it in 4-P, another unit in 4-3. Elincia has one in 4-2, another in 4-5. Like, maybe a sage? You said something about your blatant favouritism for sages. What better than sticking paragon on Calill in 4-5 and have her rip apart the Laguz while getting tons of exp? The only trouble I see here is if you are 1 or 2 turning 4-5, but then it's still more efficient to stick paragon on Elincia in 4-2 than Calill. It's also extremely easy for a 9 move flying canto unit to face a large portion of the map in 4-2. Not only does Elincia's growths allow her to get more out of Paragon, she's also able to face more enemies while using Paragon thus extending her benefit to the team from using Paragon more than a lot of other units. (like 6 or 7 move units that get slowed down by all the thickets in 4-2). And it allows you to stick Paragon on Calill or Ilyana in 3-E since you are probably sending them off with the Hawk army anyway. Or some other unit in 3-E going to 4-2.

True, and earth is good, but now we have range issues. 4-2 has a lot of thickets which slow Lucia down, and 4-5 is a big swamp. Given Elincia's flying, we're not exactly going to want to keep her next to Lucia all the time when she could be doing other stuff as well. Plus, that's wasting support time since Lucia isn't going to the tower while Elincia has a very good chance of doing so.

The point about Lucia's tower problem is probably better than the building "issue". I don't think you realize how quickly a 00 support with a flier goes. 3 adjacents + 3 heals and it's done. That is so easy it's not even funny. If Lucia was better for 4-E, that's an easy B support for 4-E-1 unless you finish 4-5 in <5 turns.

Now, I haven't done testing on physic staves so I can't promise that physic use builds supports as quickly as heal/mend/restore do, but Elincia can use Mend.

Well, she's not an attacker, that's for sure. She's facing 50+ displayed from everything that is not a dragon, and 2RKOed by everything that's not a hawk or 30 SPD raven (32 SPD doubles her). Thankfully, she has stun, but she's only quadding dragons and tigers. With 39 Atk, she's 10-12HKO'ing dragons, 3HKO'ing cats, 4HKO'ing tigers, and 3-4HKOing the birds. In other words, don't count on her ORKOing anything that's not a tiger (or maybe a cat). And without Tibarn, she's going to be on the front lines. With those stats? No, not happening.

You know, I think you aren't taking into account how Elincia can be at least level 10 coming out of 4-2 if you actually give her paragon there. Also, best user of Cancel in the history of the skill (granted it has only existed in two games and was named Guard in PoR and used skill% instead of speed%). Between Cancel and Stun and Adept (best user of this gem too) those things that 3HKO her aren't much likely to actually get a hit in. Also, dragons aren't relevant in 4-5. Pelleas can ORKO most of them at base level with dragonfoe and Fenrir. Rather helpful, that. Considering there are only 2 or 3 in the way of the boss and it's the simplest way to get rid of them. Only problem is if one of the dragons in the way pulls 12 AS rather than the 10 that most of them have (if the list here says most have 12 AS, load it up yourself and check. trust me. most of them have 10 AS and base pelleas doubles with Fenrir).

Indeed, 10 extra per strike compared to the same leveled beorc. But if she's not fighting much, she's not going to be gaining all that experience. A couple of levels of staff EXP will obviously help her, but it's not going to keep dragons and tigers from 2HKOing her. All it really does is keep the 32 SPD ravens from doubling and push some cats to 3HKOing. Still not great durability for a fighter. Without Tibarn, you're going to have maybe one other flyer to take care of the birds. Jill and Ulki are the most likely candidates here, and while good, each have other problems (Jill might not have enough levels and Ulki has the whole transformation issue...)

Well, you could just have two sages pass Meteor to each other and have them butcher a cat or tiger. Then Elincia flies towards the boss, uses "Rescue" on Reyson, Reyson vigors her, and Elincia takes out the boss. Poor boss. There are multiple ways to quickly take out the boss in 4-5. I still don't quite get why you think her exp is coming from staves when she gets so much more out of killing stuff in 4-2. She doesn't really need durability when she can take Izuka out from 19 squares away. 9 move, rescue Reyson, 9 move, g'night boss. Also, you could even have a flier pick up a sage if you are worried about the sage. It's now a 2 turn strategy, of course. Pick up Calill on turn 1, have Reyson stone. Fly Elincia, Rescue Reyson, Drop Calill in a spot to be vigored, Vigor Calill and Elincia, have Calill Meteor a tiger (she probably doubles and I think Meteor ORKOs), have Elincia take out Izuka. In fact, if there is a 20 AS tiger around the boss, you could even just use Bastian.

Well, at base level transformed, he's reduced to 14 HP by a crossbow. I'm not so comfortable with letting a barrage of enemies in 4-2 get near him. He's got decent avoid, but he's quite possibly in OHKO range. Plus, they've still got 50+% displayed on him, so he's not exactly avoiding the crossbows all the time either.

Take them out on player phase maybe? If they actually manage to hit him, heal him. It's simple enough to avoid getting attacked by the things on enemy phase. It's not like Nullify will help him KO the things anyway.

The only concern of mine is that taksh user. He has <40% hit rate and <10% crit, but a crit kills. Last game I had Tibarn attack anyway and he Tear'd, but I suppose that one guy might be reason enough to give Tibarn Nullify (or just Fortune if you didn't sell it for an extra forge in part 1).

[Florete]

There are three paragon scrolls in the game. After accounting for my blatant favoritism for sages, Jill's going to get one of them. Nolan is another viable candidate for a second. The third can go to several other people too. While Elincia does have a great set of growths to take advantage of paragon, she's either going to be a healbot (in which case the extra stats don't mean as much - a couple extra range for physic and a few points more with a non-recover staff), or a fighter (and I've already stated that she's not exactly cut out for that role).

Why can't she be a healbot and a fighter? She's not limited to one of the two. She can heal on player phase when needed (depending on the team, you might not need healing every turn) and be traded out for Amiti to attack on player phase. And also, Reyson exists, and since Elincia has Canto she has a very easy time getting into his Vigor range consistently.

True, and earth is good, but now we have range issues. 4-2 has a lot of thickets which slow Lucia down, and 4-5 is a big swamp. Given Elincia's flying, we're not exactly going to want to keep her next to Lucia all the time when she could be doing other stuff as well. Plus, that's wasting support time since Lucia isn't going to the tower while Elincia has a very good chance of doing so.

Canto helps with this. Healing also helps build support very fast. They are a 00 support type, so they need to gain 33 points within the map. Four heals is 24 and just two adjacents would hit 34. Getting C by 4-5 is no problem at all.

As for wasting support time, you said yourself the only other one she'd get is Tibarn, and HeavenxHeaven is relatively useless on both, so I'll take the +8 avoid for one map over a useless bonus. If it helps me beat the maps and there is no better option, it's a go.

Indeed, 10 extra per strike compared to the same leveled beorc. But if she's not fighting much, she's not going to be gaining all that experience. A couple of levels of staff EXP will obviously help her, but it's not going to keep dragons and tigers from 2HKOing her. All it really does is keep the 32 SPD ravens from doubling and push some cats to 3HKOing. Still not great durability for a fighter. Without Tibarn, you're going to have maybe one other flyer to take care of the birds. Jill and Ulki are the most likely candidates here, and while good, each have other problems (Jill might not have enough levels and Ulki has the whole transformation issue...)

Well, let's see here. Level 11 Elincia w/C Lucia has 121 avoid and 40.5 HP/23 Def (Res is irrelevant for the most part). The strongest Cat has 35 atk at 162 Hit, so a 4HKO at 34% real.

Chance to die in...
1 = 0
2 = 0
3 = 0
4 = 0.013363360000000005
5 = 0.04864263040000001
6 = 0.10685342656000002

As you can see, it takes 6 attacks for her to have even a 10% chance of death, and she can self heal if she isn't needed on enemy phase.

The most common Tiger has 48 atk and 158 Hit, so a 2HKO at 28% true. Obviously she can't face many Tigers at once since it only takes 3 attacks to give her a 19% chance of death.

Tigers are as bad as it gets, though. Hawks are down in the 3HKO range but aren't really as common. Ravens are worse than Cats. There are only a few Dragons.

You also have to remember the multitude of ways Elincia has to keep her health up. Directly, she has innate Renewal that you have no reason to remove, which is 3-4 HP every turn. Since she really doesn't need Paragon anymore, she's the downright best candidate for Imbue, which is 21 HP at level 11. That's more than half her HP already every single turn. As mentioned before, if you don't plan on having her do anything on any given enemy phase, make sure she's equipped with a staff to heal herself. Then there's ending next to Reyson, which at this point should be 12-14 more HP. Indirectly, she has Stun, so with Amiti that's ~45% chance of preventing an enemy from countering on player phase. Also recall her 200% avoid growth.

In other words, Elincia would have to face a lot of enemy phase action to see significant death chances in 4-5, more than most should.

Well, at base level transformed, he's reduced to 14 HP by a crossbow. I'm not so comfortable with letting a barrage of enemies in 4-2 get near him. He's got decent avoid, but he's quite possibly in OHKO range. Plus, they've still got 50+% displayed on him, so he's not exactly avoiding the crossbows all the time either.

I'm very comfortable with it. Why? Because Tibarn laughs at 4-2 enemies. He has 129 avoid and 14 HP/32 Def after a Crossbow hit. The strongest halberdier 3HKOs him at 3 displayed hit. I won't even bother finding death chances for that. The strongest Warrior is a 2HKO, but at 1 displayed at best. He's listed as having 127.5-129.5 Hit. The strongest SM is a 4HKO at 16 displayed Hit. Laughable. And there are only 2 enemies with any type of Crossbow in the entire map. If Tibarn attacks first, he has a 48% chance of Tear and, for the Warrior, 5 displayed Crit as well to possibly avoid even getting countered. IIRC, the guy with the Taksh doesn't even move.

Should I continue?

Lucia (she's underleveled (a plus) but you're likely to have several tier 3 units at this point, so if BEXP is limited, I'd rather focus on characters I'm taking to the tower.)

But she is an extra fighter. The experience she gets is very unlikely to have significant effects on the units you plan to take to the tower.

Ranulf (He's got speed, but suffers from cat gauge issues. You might not even be able to keep him transformed all the time, and he lacks the concrete durability to take hits once he reverts. Grass might help, but you'll sacrifice your player phase to do so.)

A bit more of a problem for 4-2 than for 4-5. Remember, 4-5 is almost all 1 range enemies, so Ranulf can counter anyone and has little to no need of his player phase.

Nolan, Zihark, and Volug - probably with Micaiah since their Earth affinity will help balance Micaiah's lack of stars during her levels.

Actually, when I support Nolan and Zihark, I send them to Tibarn's group to make the most out of their avoid with his stars and to level them up properly for the tower. Volug usually goes to the desert though.

Mordecai needs to go with Ike to tank in 4-4, since he's the king of concrete durability. He's probably got >40 def at this point and an A support give 2 more defense (or 3 if a defense support). Mist is helped greatly by the 3 atk and def, so Mordecai needs to go with Ike.

Who said Mist is supporting Mordecai? I can see it happening, but I would never say it's guaranteed. I don't think Mordecai is really "needed" anywhere, since, as stated before, durability is not nearly as much of an issue anymore. In fact, Mordecai probably isn't the king of durability anymore since he lacks avoid, and that becomes a problem with stronger enemies and Mages, as well enemies who double him.

That leaves for Tibarn's group:

Nephenee, Aran, Ulki, Shinon, Gatrie, and one of Jill and Haar in terms of solid units. However, Ike hasn't taken his units. He needs Shinon, Gatrie, and we'll put Janaff here as well (+5 vision and high avoid is good for him here. Flying is another benefit, since he's likely the only good flyer you've got with Ike).

Ike already has himself, Mia, Titania, and Nailah, plus the possibility of Soren for potshots. That's a pretty solid start right there. I don't think he needs Shinon and Gatrie so much. And what about the possilities of Oscar, Boyd, and Rolf?

We'll assume that you've got the required units plus Neph, Aran, Ulki, and Jill.

Wait, what happened to Haar? I assume Micaiah's route, but it seems you left him out after mentioning him in the last point.

Elincia is likely our only healer here besides our medicine, so she won't always be able to pick off kills in the swamp.

Why is that? Laura and Rhys should be used as extra healers, and it's likely you used at least one of the Archsages so an extra healer can be on every route. And then there's Bastian.

He's also got his 4 stars, and therefore makes every unit better in his part 4.

The stars can't be counted in his favor. I get the bonus whether I actually use him or just stick him in a corner, so it isn't fair to credit him for that. After all, Elincia and Ike don't credit for stars in maps where they apply.

On to Janaff, who went with Ike. Ike has: himself, Nailah, Janaff, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Mist, Mordecai, Soren, and Titania. Rhys probably also went here, (and Laura went with Micaiah). The strategy is simple: Nailah and Ike in front, Mia three units behind Ike for support, Shinon snipes on the right while Gatrie tanks over there (they're a fast support that gives defense - improving their tanking abilities a lot). Mordecai and Mist work on the weaker left side, and Janaff is useful but hardly needed. Rafiel can do whatever...

Well for one, I don't like your team set up. It looks like you sent way too many good units to Ike's team, 8 that are viable and strong combat units while Tibarn's generally got fewer and weaker units (like DB units). He doesn't need that much despite his maps being arguably the toughest, and he has no need of 3 healers. This is probably how you came to the conclusion of Janaff being hardly needed; no one is when there are too many good units. You can't give everyone else a role and act like Janaff is useless because you picked him last. That's called sandbagging.

Besides, I feel you missed my overall point. I never said Janaff would be some kind of crucial element to the team, but that he can go where more help is needed, something Tibarn can't do. It's possible that things like supports lead one team to be underhanded, and Janaff can help to fill that void. I'm not saying it actually makes him better in part 4, just that it closes the gap significantly.

You're also required to bring Sigrun and Tanith, and no sane person will leave Haar behind here, so again, he's not doing as much as you might think.

He's way better than Sigrun and Tanith and arguably better than Haar. Being better than the alternatives is all that's really needed when compared to someone who doesn't yet exist. I can use the same "not doing much" argument for anyone else on the team.

Of course, Tibarn will easily be making it to the tower. Besides the required units, I've got the royals (5 units), Jill, Haar, Mordecai, another healer (Elincia, probably), and one other unit (Neph for wishblade, most likely).

Waitwaitwait, why the hell is Mordecai going to the tower? Even if you can argue he's good there (30 Spd cap, if he can get there, tells me 'no'), there's no way he's better than Janaff himself there. Janaff will be stronger (Generally more Str + doubling allows him to build Strike. Also much more likely to actually have a mastery), he doubles, flies, and has superior avoid. There are a lot of units I'd send to the tower before Mordecai, Janaff being one of them.

If you can't convince me why Janaff should go to the tower instead of one of the other units named, Tibarn gets all 5 tower levels to add to his 'score' while Janaff doesn't.

I don't even have to. Endgame is not worth as much as other parts of the game. We usually treat the while thing as being worth ~2 maps, and Janaff easily beats that with his 5 part 3 maps.

Damn it, it looks I was beaten on a lot of things. Narga got me this time.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I... I give up. Still, I tried. That's got to count for something. :)

[Shadow Mir]

I failed to catch this earlier, but:

He needs Shinon, Gatrie, and we'll put Janaff here as well (+5 vision and high avoid is good for him here. Flying is another benefit, since he's likely the only good flyer you've got with Ike).

No. Just... no. Why the hell would I send Janaff with Ike's team when he has almost no reason to be there?

[Candlejack]

Send him with Micaiah's team; rapes in desert plox?

[El Rey León]

*doesn't care about Tier Lists, supports, affinities or any of that shit*

*characters are assumed to also be favorite in 2nd/3rd tier unless 2nd/3rd tier is listed*

Lord: Sigurd

Mage: Lugh

Cleric: Serra

Soldier: Nephenee

Brigand: Gonzales

Fighter: Nolan

Archer: FE10 Shinon

Pegasus Knight: Florina

Wyvern Rider: FE10 Haar

Myrmidon: Mia

GBA Cavalier: Sain

Lance Knight: Oscar

Axe Knight: Kieran

Bow Knight: Midayle

Paladin: Titania or Seth

Knight: Oswin

Monk: Lucius

Shaman: Canas

Trobadour: Clarine

Theif: Colm

Mercenary: Ogma or Raven

Dancer: Ninian

Bard: Levin (he counts, right >_> )

Pirate: Dart

Nomad: Rath

Sage: Sety

Manakete: Fa

[Candlejack]

Lugh for best Mage?

You've played Genealogy right?

[Luftwaffe]

Azel is the only mage in 1st gen FE4 and he's awful. There is Arthur, but he needs to be Levin's son and i would group him under mageknights.

Oh yeah. Homeros > Levin. 5 PCC and elite >>>>> soloing chapter five.

[Original Alear]

Dancer: Ninian

Bard: Levin (he counts, right >_> )

Poor Nils. He thought he had a shoe-in on an exclusive class...then he found himself up against someone in the same class w/ a 20 spd weapon.

[Paperblade]

Lord: Sigurd

Mercenary/Hero: Raven or Othin, leaning Raven even though I like Othin more >_>

Myrm/Swordmaster: Shanan or Rutgar (ohu.jpg at anyone suggesting anything else)

Halb: Probably FE9 Neph, not a whole lot of units here (I mean, there's as many Halbs in the entire series as there are Paladins in FE6, and that's counting doubles from FE9 to 10, the hell is this IS... Sure there's Ruka/Fols/etc, but they promote to Armor->Baron or some shit)

General: Probably FE10 Gats, if not FEDS Sedgar (although I'm considering FEDS units by their starting class)

Warrior: FEDS Barst (shut up, I don't care if he goes Hero later, I'm using base class)

Berserker: Gonzales

Sniper: Gaggles FE10 Shinon

Sage: Levin!Sety, end of discussion

Bishop: Probably Saphy, Repair Staff and FE5 Warp are too pro

Druid: Salem

Paladin: FE9 Titania or Seth or Ares... Dunno which. I'm not sure if Ares is even in the running here

Bow Knight/Nomad Troopers: Probably FEDS Sedgar? Even though he goes Hero or General. If he doesn't count, FE9 Astrid

Great Knight: Lex

Forest Knight: Gotta go with FE4 Delmud, although Fergus is cool too

Duke Knight: FE5 Fin

Valkyrie/Mage Knight: Probably Levin!Arthur, although Clarine/Pris are cool and get an honorable mention for not locking out Levin!Sety

Wyvern Lord: FE10 Haar

Falcoknight: FEDS Caeda

Thief: Pahn, thieves are godly in 5 and Pahn is ridonkulous on top of that

Dancer/Heron: FE10 Reyson

Beast Laguz: Volug

Bird Laguz (cept Heron): FE10 Janaff, although Ulki is like right behind him

Mamkutes/Dragon Laguz: Probably Nasir. Most of them are pretty meh

I can't really mention any FE3 units because it's so stupid easy that pwning isn't worth much, and FE2 in that the only units that really stand out are too busy getting one upped by FEDS Caeda and Sigurd.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Paperblade

[Lilmik11]

Lord:FE9 Ike

Mercenary or Hero:Gerik

Myrmydon and promotions after:FE10 Mia is overall the best

Soldier and promotions following:FE10 Nephenee

Armour Knight and others promotions:I'd say...Oswin was badass

Fighter and promotions following:Nolan

Berserker:Ross

Archer and other promotions:FE10 Shinon

Mage and promotions following:Lugh

Priest or Cleric and promotions after:FE11 Lena

Shaman and others promotions:Canas

Paladin:Sain

Cavalier:Franz

Lance Knight:FE9 Oscar

Sword Knight:Nobody

Axe Knight and following promotions:FE10 Titania

Bow Knight and others promotions:FE11 Wolf

Valkyrie:FE9 Mist

Wyvern Rider and the promotions after:FE9 Jill

Pegasus Knight and others:FE11 Caeda

Thief and others promotions:FE10 Volke

Laguz:Caineghis

Mamkute:Myrrh

Dancer or other unit of this type:FE10 Reyson

And what if I had to create the most efficient 12 units team with these characters?

Ike

Shinon

Lena

Lugh

Caeda

Nolan

Oswin

Reyson

Titania

Wolf

Jill

Mia

[Blutritter]

lord - Sigurd

sniper - Faval

wyvern lord - Haar (RD)

hero - Ike (RD)

sage - Sety

rogue - Lifis

general - Gatrie (RD)

bishop - Saphy

valkyrie - Nanna

warrior - Boyd (PoR)

berserker - Gonzales

ranger - Shin

falcon knight - Fee

paladin - Titania

swordmaster - Shanan

druid - Salem

refresher - Reyson

laguz - Tibarn

dragon - Nasir

forest knight - Delmud

great knight - Franz

special class - Leaf

honorable mentions for good measure: Ephraim, Shinon (RD), Othin, Levin, Parn, Tauroneo (RD), Serra, Clarine, Nolan, Geese, Gerik (but should be a hero instead), Tanith (PoR)/Elincia (RD), Seth, Lakche, Canas, Laylea, Nailah, ....., Fergus, Lex, Lachesis respectively.

[Anacybele]

'kay, I haven't played any FE game before FE7, sorry. xP

Warrior: Boyd

Paladin: Toss up between Oscar and Kieran

Swordmaster: Edward

Lord: Ike (FE9)

Hero: Ike (FE10)

Mage: Soren

Sniper: Shinon in FE10, Rolf in FE9

General: Gatrie

Healer: Rhys

Pegasus: Sigrun or Elincia

Wyvern: Haar

Laguz: Nasir or Ranulf

Figures that I've only got FE9/10 characters there even though I have played a lot of FE7 and 8. The Greil Mercenaries are just godly though. I can't help it. XD

Edited January 25, 2010 by Eternal Bond

[Blutritter]

Sigrun is pretty terrible; Ranulf, Soren and Edward are meh and have no business being part of an efficient core team.

[Anacybele]

Sigrun is pretty terrible; Ranulf, Soren and Edward are meh and have no business being part of an efficient core team.

What? You're the first person I've heard say this. I've only heard that Soren is the best mage in FE9/10 as well as Edward being the best Swordmaster. As for Sigrun, I just did better with her and Elincia than the other Pegasus Knights.

Also, Edward kicked ass for me. Soren did too.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Eternal Bond

[Ether]

Edward is Inferior to Zihark and Mia, while Soren is inferior to Micaiah.Sigrun is pretty lolzy, although none of the pegs in FE10 are great, Elincia is easily the best of them.

Ranulf isn;t bad though,he's pretty useful, cat guage is the only thing undesireable about him.

Although, for Peg knights, FE9 Marcia is better than any of them in 10 by a mile atleast,and FE9 Tanith isn't far behind her.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Ether

[Anacybele]

WHAT? You did NOT just say Soren is inferior to Micaiah. Micaiah sucks ass. Soren is epic. I trained Micaiah and babied her to her fullest and she still ended up a crap unit for me. She dies way too easily and is just too weak. I've had Soren knock down dragons and other tough opponents with his magic.

[Ether]

Soren is far from useful in the GM's.His offense is nothing special, and quickly becomes even worse comparitavely.As well,he needs to be shielded constantly so he doesn;t die.

Micaiah has Sacrifice and Thani in part 1, which sets her apart from her team, and in part 3 she can heal off those hard hits from lolwut tigers.

Plus Micaiah is invincible against dragons with Nosferatu.