Best GBA warrior

[Junkhead]

The only thing Rebecca has over Geitz is Avo, but if you're going t bring up the fact she can support Dart than so could Geitz, they are awesome monsters when supported.

[CATS]

Well, let's see. Rebecca's Dart support is 51 turns faster to A than Geitz's version of it, and she gets to start the support 8 chapters earlier. It is not unreasonable for Rebecca to have A rank with Dart before Geitz would even have a C. Then what other supports can Geitz get? A C with Isadora at like Ch 30 maybe. Whereas Rebecca can get C Lowen well before Geitz joins and B Lowen before Geitz will get C Isadora. You will have something like Rebecca with A Dart/C Lowen while Geitz has no supports yet. +4 Atk/+20 Crit goes a long way towards closing that Str gap.

Also, when mentioning things Rebecca has over Geitz, you forgot Spd.

Edited February 3, 2010 by CATS

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Definitely Geitz.

[Junkhead]

Also, when mentioning things Rebecca has over Geitz, you forgot Spd.

No, I didn't, Avo also includes Spd, but I suppose you were right with the reasoning on supports...but since enemies aren't too fast I'd say Geitz doubles a few that aren't swordmasters, or nomadic troopers, MAYBE Heroes.

[dondon151]

Also, no, Geitz does not automatically win with an extremely strict net utility mindset. Bartre has use in Ch 12, 13, 13x, and 14 at the very least, with no opportunity cost of deployment. Geitz is unable to contribute much if anything towards your efficiency in the one chapter where he doesn't consume a deployment slot (his join chap) due to his placement in the bottom right corner (while your group will be going up the left side of the map), he will spend the chapter either catching up or just camping at his recruitment spot killing a few Pirates. After that there is nothing to indicate that Geitz should continue to be fielded. He might do filler duty on the big lategame chapters, but Bartre has more chapters of utility and his come with no opportunity cost of deployment. It would still be between Dorcas and Bartre, or I guess Garcia would have a better case now.

Geitz can stay in his recruitment spot and divert pirates and WKs from the main force, which is pretty helpful. And why shouldn't he be used in the long term? His 14 base AS doubles every WK and pirate in chapter 24. Chapter 25, 14 AS doubles every enemy on the map with the exception of the warrior, who has 11 AS. Chapter 26, 14 AS doubles every nomad and a vast majority of all WKs (only the 11 speed ones with Iron Lances escape; most have 9-10 speed). That's basically the story for the rest of the game - Geitz doubles everything but boss enemies and mercs. 19 str at base is amazing as well - the best offensive unit in the game, Raven, doesn't reach 19 str until 20/2, and even then Geitz still has axe rank. Meanwhile, Bartre is stuck with not doubling ever throughout midgame and occupying a deployment slot past his forced chapters.

[CATS]

No, I didn't, Avo also includes Spd, but I suppose you were right with the reasoning on supports...but since enemies aren't too fast I'd say Geitz doubles a few that aren't swordmasters, or nomadic troopers, MAYBE Heroes.

Attack Speed, then. Saying that Avo is the only thing she has is quite false.

Geitz can stay in his recruitment spot and divert pirates and WKs from the main force, which is pretty helpful.

Those lower pirates are going down there anyways because of the village. They start moving towards it before you recruit Geitz. Pirate reinforcements won't reach your main group in time to matter even if Geitz weren't there to distract them, especially the reinforcements closer to the bottom which are the ones that he'll be diverting.

He gets to divert 2-4 Wyverns I suppose, depending on how many would get to your group in the first place after Geitz's recruitment. Bartre's 4 earlygame chapters still take the cake.

And why shouldn't he be used in the long term? His 14 base AS doubles every WK and pirate in chapter 24. Chapter 25, 14 AS doubles every enemy on the map with the exception of the warrior, who has 11 AS. Chapter 26, 14 AS doubles every nomad and a vast majority of all WKs (only the 11 speed ones with Iron Lances escape; most have 9-10 speed). That's basically the story for the rest of the game - Geitz doubles everything but boss enemies and mercs. 19 str at base is amazing as well - the best offensive unit in the game, Raven, doesn't reach 19 str until 20/2, and even then Geitz still has axe rank. Meanwhile, Bartre is stuck with not doubling ever throughout midgame and occupying a deployment slot past his forced chapters.

Lots of people double tons of enemies. FE7 enemies have bullshit AS, by the time Geitz joins at least. Doubling everything in Ch 25 except the warrior (and the boss) would be alot more impressive if anything in Ch 25 had more than 6 AS, aside from the warrior and the boss. Pirates with Halberds, Hammers and Steel Axes, Cavs with Steel Lances, Pegs with Steel Lance, Monks with Shine, a Bishop with Divine and Purge. A 20/1 Bartre doubles all the same things Geitz does in that chapter. Mostly any unit in upper mid or above can boast that they rape the vast majority if not all of the unpromoted enemies from Geitz's join chapter onwards; killing unpromos is nothing to brag about. Rather, the fact that Geitz has trouble one-rounding any variety of unpromoted enemy provides evidence against the notion that he's notable.

What's more important is offense against bosses and promoted enemies. Since you have no trouble raping the crappy unpromoted mooks at this point (or you shouldn't), those are the ones where offensive gaps generally matter the most. Raven's Str is impressive because it's combined with massive bucketloads of Spd which no other character with that much Str gets--not only can he 2HKO things, but he can also double them. This isn't the case with Geitz and his mediocre Spd. Heroes (exist in PFoD, BBD, NoF and CoD iirc) have 16-17 Spd, NTs are similar (PFoD, NoF). PFoD and BBD Snipers have 10-11. The PFoD Kenneth SM has 20. The L20 Sniper in CoD has 13-14. CoD Valks are lol, Geitz can get doubled by those. And as you mentioned, he has trouble with Mercs/Myrms, which exist in PFoD, BBD and NoF.

I certainly see nothing which elevates him above whatever other random mid tier unit. If you go by the philosophy that only the best units are used and thus Bartre is not trained, then your team is chosen from among the 15 top/high tiers and possibly Harken/Pent, and Geitz doesn't get used either.

[dondon151]

Lots of people double tons of enemies. FE7 enemies have bullshit AS, by the time Geitz joins at least. Doubling everything in Ch 25 except the warrior (and the boss) would be alot more impressive if anything in Ch 25 had more than 6 AS, aside from the warrior and the boss. Pirates with Halberds, Hammers and Steel Axes, Cavs with Steel Lances, Pegs with Steel Lance, Monks with Shine, a Bishop with Divine and Purge. A 20/1 Bartre doubles all the same things Geitz does in that chapter.

A 20/1 Bartre had to put up with the opportunity cost of his deployment slots during the period where his offense sucks. Geitz does not. So, an EXP-fed Bartre doing the same thing as Geitz doesn't mean that they claim the same amount of profit.

Mostly any unit in upper mid or above can boast that they rape the vast majority if not all of the unpromoted enemies from Geitz's join chapter onwards; killing unpromos is nothing to brag about. Rather, the fact that Geitz has trouble one-rounding any variety of unpromoted enemy provides evidence against the notion that he's notable.

Really now? Let's take 20/2 Kent (a generous estimate) with B Sain. With Steel Lance he has 26 atk against a 32 HP/11 def WK. That is not a ORKO. Meanwhile, Geitz with Iron Axe has 28 atk after WTA, which ORKOs the highest end WK on the map at 32 HP/12 def. Or, let's take 20/2 Sain, who has 15 AS, which fails to double and by extension ORKO about half of the mercs in chapter 24. If Sain is not promoted or if he promoted early and is left with 14 AS, then Sain is in the same boat as Geitz.

In fact, Sain and Kent are pretty good offensive units. Lowen's offensive parameters come nowhere near Geitz's - at 20/3 he ties in AS but loses 5 str and axe rank, so really he loses something like 8 atk, which is huge. Guy doubles everything but loses atk by just as much as Lowen does, and doesn't even get axes, so no 1-2 range. Oswin matches offense for the most part after promotion, but he loses move and doesn't have as good 2 range as Geitz, which means Geitz's area of attack is considerably larger. 20/2 Erk has 14 mag, or roughly equal attack power to Geitz after factoring in def-res gap, but he has 34 HP/10 def (B Priscilla) to Geitz's 43 HP/12 def, 13 def if WTA. In perspective, 23 atk Steel Lance WKs 5RKO Geitz while they 3RKO Erk. 20/2 Lucius has 20 mag, so he actually wins attack power by a considerable amount, but with B Raven he only has 30 HP/8 def, a 2RKO from the aforementioned WKs. Eliwood... lol.

What's more important is offense against bosses and promoted enemies. Since you have no trouble raping the crappy unpromoted mooks at this point (or you shouldn't), those are the ones where offensive gaps generally matter the most. Raven's Str is impressive because it's combined with massive bucketloads of Spd which no other character with that much Str gets--not only can he 2HKO things, but he can also double them. This isn't the case with Geitz and his mediocre Spd. Heroes (exist in PFoD, BBD, NoF and CoD iirc) have 16-17 Spd, NTs are similar (PFoD, NoF). PFoD and BBD Snipers have 10-11. The PFoD Kenneth SM has 20. The L20 Sniper in CoD has 13-14. CoD Valks are lol, Geitz can get doubled by those. And as you mentioned, he has trouble with Mercs/Myrms, which exist in PFoD, BBD and NoF.

Bosses and threatening promoted enemies are few and far between, and Geitz is not obligated to match up well against them if the team is assumed to have units that already match up well against them. That utility would be fairly redundant. As for swordies that Geitz can't double, there is always the option of Brave Axe or Brave Bow, the latter of which Geitz has like no competition for.

I certainly see nothing which elevates him above whatever other random mid tier unit. If you go by the philosophy that only the best units are used and thus Bartre is not trained, then your team is chosen from among the 15 top/high tiers and possibly Harken/Pent, and Geitz doesn't get used either.

Sain, Kent, Lowen are top tier. Oswin, Erk, Lucius, Guy, Eliwood are high tier. Geitz holds advantages over each of them; I find it hard to believe that he is not worth using.

Edited February 3, 2010 by dondon151

[Ansem]

Bartre imo.

FE6 fighters can't hit, and Ward is slow anyways. Insta-fail. I would say FE6 Bartre might have a case, but then I realized the flaw in that argument. Regardless I'm referring to FE7 Bartre.

What is this crap about Geitz? I heard someone mention supports? Supports that he won't have because he joins late. Who would he support anyways? Dorcas goes with Oswin and Bartre, there is no room for Geitz here. Dart is mediocre and costs a million dollars to use. Karel joins even later and kills Harken. The Fiora support takes a century to hit A. Isadora is the only remotely viable option, but it's not fast and starts over halfway through the game. They'll be lucky to get more than a C, and the C bonuses are shitty. +5 Avo is all there is to care about, it doesn't even give any Def or Atk.

Bartre on the other hand is ballin along with a rape Dorcas support and a solid Canas support, and all 3 of them have good affinities, arguably the game's 3 best. Anima, Fire, Thunder. Indeed Bartre has one of the strongest support situations in FE7.

Base Geitz: 19 Str, 6 Crit, 14 Spd, 13 Con----44 Hp, 12 Def, 4 Res, 38 Avo

20/1 Bartre, A Dorcas, B Canas: 21 Str, 26 Crit, 10.2 Spd, 15 Con----47.3 Hp, 15.4 Def, 10.5 Res, 54.8 Avo

Geitz has more Spd. Awesome. He loses at everything else. He only wins offense against enemies where the Spd gap matters, whereas Bartre wins offense against enemies that either both double or neither double, and rapes Geitz on defense in general. I don't see why everyone thinks Geitz is so good.

The FE8 Warriors are similar I guess. Ross is worse for sure with his shitty start. Garcia might have a case, but as has already been pointed out, he's worse relative to his team. Notably, the % of enemies that are promoted in FE8 lategame is much higher than in FE7, and in FE7 Bartre can rape those crappy unpromoted enemies the same as anyone else. Garcia's bad Spd is made more notable by the fact that he's facing a smaller % of failure enemies against which low Spd doesn't matter.

I have found another one of my species

[Parrhesia]

No, he's actually using sound logic beyond what he does and doesn't cap. <_<

[Colonel M]

Geitz, but Lott is not a bad choice either (gogo 40% Def growth!)

[CATS]

So what capitalization scheme would you recommend that I use, Ferret?

A 20/1 Bartre had to put up with the opportunity cost of his deployment slots during the period where his offense sucks. Geitz does not. So, an EXP-fed Bartre doing the same thing as Geitz doesn't mean that they claim the same amount of profit.

It does mean that a unit with considerably less speed than Geitz still doubles all the same things in that chapter.

Bosses and threatening promoted enemies are few and far between, and Geitz is not obligated to match up well against them if the team is assumed to have units that already match up well against them. That utility would be fairly redundant. As for swordies that Geitz can't double, there is always the option of Brave Axe or Brave Bow, the latter of which Geitz has like no competition for.

So you think utility against horrible unpromoted enemies like steel weapon pirates and cavs is less redundant, when those enemies are far less threatening and you have many more characters capable of reliably killing them? By the logic that performance vs a certain enemy type is trivial if you already have other units that do well against that type, then Geitz is for sure not contributing anything meaningful at any point in the game.

Holding advantages over top and high tiers doesn't make Geitz overall better than they are. Canas and Dart have advantages over Erk and Guy, for example. And at the same time, they also have significant disadvantages, just like Geitz has disadvantages to any top or high tier mentioned. I don't really think there is a need to list them as they are fairly obvious in almost all cases; defense vs Oswin, offense against promoted enemies of almost any kind vs Guy, staff rank vs Lucius, etc. If Geitz is overall superior to and worth fielding over any of these units, it is only by a very small amount, and his total net utility accrued thus remains very small.

Bartre on the other hand has no opportunity cost at all during his period of utility. Even if Geitz is rly awesome while he's available (which he's not), there's always an almost-as-awesome alternative taking away almost all of that value from his net contributions. Bartre can be perfectly mediocre during his time of use and still garner more net utility simply because 100% of his overall abilities are transferred to his net utility, whereas Geitz is looking at something like (100 [Geitz] - 90 [alternative]) = 10% of his overall abilities to his net utility gained.

Geitz might still have a case if he could argue contributing a small amount of net utility over a long period of time, but he simply does not exist long enough for this. He gets screwed on chapter 24. On chapter 25 I've already explained that that map is a joke and he's not doing anything special there by being one of like 20 people who can easily rape those steel weapon pirates/cavs, especially since he can't even double the only two enemies in the chapter that aren't hilariously easy to one-round. Geitz is only looking at like 7-8 chapters of use.

Is that a better capitalization scheme, Ferret?

[Mekkah]

I think the Ferret is talking about how the dude he quoted judges units by what stats units cap (becoming green and flashy and shiny and all) whereas you're taking more into account.

[CATS]

Oh, that makes sense. Cool, now I can go back to randomly capitalizing things.

[Junkhead]

That's right, he was.

[Deliriyum]

This is the best warrior in the GBA series(period)

[Junkhead]

LoLot

LolBarf-tray

LolPersonalExperience

[Deliriyum]

LoLot

LolBarf-tray

LolPersonalExperience

lolitwasajoketobeginwithsinceBarthisaknightsoIdidn'tthinkIwouldbecriticized.

ANYWAYS...Barth has the bases to back himself up, and significant growths in hp and strength.

[dondon151]

It does mean that a unit with considerably less speed than Geitz still doubles all the same things in that chapter.

That's great. That has nothing to do with what I said.

So you think utility against horrible unpromoted enemies like steel weapon pirates and cavs is less redundant, when those enemies are far less threatening and you have many more characters capable of reliably killing them? By the logic that performance vs a certain enemy type is trivial if you already have other units that do well against that type, then Geitz is for sure not contributing anything meaningful at any point in the game.

I like how you conveniently ignore wyvern knights, or for that matter failed to address any of the numbers that I posted with numerical evidence of your own.

Holding advantages over top and high tiers doesn't make Geitz overall better than they are. Canas and Dart have advantages over Erk and Guy, for example. And at the same time, they also have significant disadvantages, just like Geitz has disadvantages to any top or high tier mentioned. I don't really think there is a need to list them as they are fairly obvious in almost all cases; defense vs Oswin, offense against promoted enemies of almost any kind vs Guy, staff rank vs Lucius, etc. If Geitz is overall superior to and worth fielding over any of these units, it is only by a very small amount, and his total net utility accrued thus remains very small.

Bartre on the other hand has no opportunity cost at all during his period of utility. Even if Geitz is rly awesome while he's available (which he's not), there's always an almost-as-awesome alternative taking away almost all of that value from his net contributions. Bartre can be perfectly mediocre during his time of use and still garner more net utility simply because 100% of his overall abilities are transferred to his net utility, whereas Geitz is looking at something like (100 [Geitz] - 90 [alternative]) = 10% of his overall abilities to his net utility gained.

Bartre could also be perfectly unnecessary at times during his time of use, as using him for a certain task in lieu of someone else means that he takes the EXP. Geitz, since he doesn't require EXP, allows the player to concentrate EXP in a smaller team, resulting in higher efficiency in early midgame. Of all the people in top and high tier, only Marcus does not join as a low leveled unpromoted unit - this means that almost every character in the "optimal" team requires EXP to achieve optimal performance. By the time Geitz joins, however, these units are already at the point where further EXP investment makes little to no difference, so Geitz functioning as a utility unit and taking away EXP from the team at this point doesn't matter anymore. The improved performance of the team prior to Geitz joining as a result of more concentrated EXP distribution can be attributed to him.

Geitz might still have a case if he could argue contributing a small amount of net utility over a long period of time, but he simply does not exist long enough for this. He gets screwed on chapter 24. On chapter 25 I've already explained that that map is a joke and he's not doing anything special there by being one of like 20 people who can easily rape those steel weapon pirates/cavs, especially since he can't even double the only two enemies in the chapter that aren't hilariously easy to one-round. Geitz is only looking at like 7-8 chapters of use.

As opposed to Bartre's 4 chapters of use? Keep in mind that by the time Geitz joins, competition for his unit slot has reduced drastically simply by the virtue that a player cannot put enough EXP into all of his top/high tier units to keep them competitive. So it's not like Geitz is competing with all 15 units in top/high tier; if the main team is 8 trained top/high tiers, that's still anywhere from 3-6 open slots left for utility units like Geitz. If you consider it from that perspective, the opportunity cost of Geitz's deployment slot is actually very low, not enough to offset his utility by any considerable amount.

[Junkhead]

lolitwasajoketobeginwithsinceBarthisaknightsoIdidn'tthinkIwouldbecriticized.

ANYWAYS...Barth has the bases to back himself up, and significant growths in hp and strength.

Fighter!Barth's HP growth is a joke. I mean...it surpasses 100% and he isn't Karel or a FE4 character.

[Anouleth]

LoLot

LolBarf-tray

LolPersonalExperience

You shouldn't hack, you know.

[Junkhead]

The only thing I hacked was Renault's base Mag & gave him +1 base Def. The other things were giving +5 to some weapons, but it makes it harder for me, also. How do I get it? By killing morphs wielding THOSE weapons of course.

They get +5 like some of the S ranked weapons in FE8, I made a mistake and gave Basilikos +5 Str. instead of Spd

Edited February 5, 2010 by Alan Rainsworth

[CATS]

That's great. That has nothing to do with what I said.

In that case, what you said has nothing to do with what I originally said.

I like how you conveniently ignore wyvern knights, or for that matter failed to address any of the numbers that I posted with numerical evidence of your own.

Yes, wyverns. Let's look at all the many units who have trouble with those.

Your typical Ch 24 steel lance wyvern has 7 AS at most, with the majority having 5 or 6 AS. Hp/Def ranges from 30-33 and 11-12.

Kent: I don't know why you had him using a steel lance. Steel axe gives him 29 Atk and 13 AS, which doubles and 2HKOs all of them.

Sain: lol

Lowen: 20/2 Lowen with +1 Atk from a Marcus support and steel axe gets 27 Atk/11 AS. This gets about half of them, and he's the worst offensive unit on this list by a good bit.

Guy: 20/2 Guy with +1 Atk from C Priscilla and a lancereaver gets 27-28 Atk, so between 50 and 75% of them are 2HKO'd on average. Alternatively, he can use the killing edge, which gives ~76% odds of a crit kill.

Oswin: 12 Spd, high Str + axes

Erk: lol

Lucius: lol

Eliwood is the only one who really has problems, since he is lame and still unpromoted on Ch 24. Upon promotion in Ch 26, he has 15-16 Str. +1 Atk from a Hector support and possibly another +1 from a C with Lowen. With just the Hector support and a Lancereaver, he has 27-28 Atk. Adding C Lowen pushes it up to 28-29.

I don't really see it. Wyverns are more problematic than most of the unpromoted rubbish, no doubt, but promoted enemies are still much, much harder to kill.

Bartre could also be perfectly unnecessary at times during his time of use, as using him for a certain task in lieu of someone else means that he takes the EXP. Geitz, since he doesn't require EXP, allows the player to concentrate EXP in a smaller team, resulting in higher efficiency in early midgame. Of all the people in top and high tier, only Marcus does not join as a low leveled unpromoted unit - this means that almost every character in the "optimal" team requires EXP to achieve optimal performance. By the time Geitz joins, however, these units are already at the point where further EXP investment makes little to no difference, so Geitz functioning as a utility unit and taking away EXP from the team at this point doesn't matter anymore. The improved performance of the team prior to Geitz joining as a result of more concentrated EXP distribution can be attributed to him.

Bartre hardly requires exp. He joins as a middling or average unit relative to the rest of your team at the time of his recruitment, exactly the same as Geitz.

As opposed to Bartre's 4 chapters of use? Keep in mind that by the time Geitz joins, competition for his unit slot has reduced drastically simply by the virtue that a player cannot put enough EXP into all of his top/high tier units to keep them competitive. So it's not like Geitz is competing with all 15 units in top/high tier; if the main team is 8 trained top/high tiers, that's still anywhere from 3-6 open slots left for utility units like Geitz. If you consider it from that perspective, the opportunity cost of Geitz's deployment slot is actually very low, not enough to offset his utility by any considerable amount.

Hector

Marcus

Ninian

8 pplz

Geitz

Geitz competes with other pre-promos for that last 1 or 2 slots. Pent/Harken/Hawkeye. Nor is there any convincing evidence that it's significantly better to train only 8 unpromos instead of 9 or 10. The fact that FE7's unpromoted enemies are indeed so hilariously weak, and that the not-lol enemies are indeed few and far between, lends weight to the argument that slightly lower levels on a larger team during later chapters would not be a significant drawback to training up 1 or 2 more unpromos. On the other hand, if you refuse to give Exp to whatever high/upper mid filler units you're using during early and early-mid as opposed to training them for long-term use, their performance is less useful to you during that time period.

Edited February 5, 2010 by CATS

[dondon151]

In that case, what you said has nothing to do with what I originally said.

Of course it does. You were implying that since Bartre and Geitz were doubling the same enemies, that they are necessarily of equal worth, while I said that they're not.

Kent, Sain, Lowen

I gave them the Steel Lance because there is no guarantee that they are promoted, pending how large the rest of the team is. 20/2 results in nice numbers for the averages so there would be no rounding shenanigans.

Guy, Oswin

I didn't complain about Oswin's AS or his speed. I complained about his movement plus lack of bows. Guy I will give.

Erk, Lucius

Being 3RKO'd in Erk's case and 2RKO'd in Lucius's case is a giant problem.

Bartre hardly requires exp. He joins as a middling or average unit relative to the rest of your team at the time of his recruitment, exactly the same as Geitz.

Bartre requires a lot EXP to continue being viable by the time the Geitz joins. Geitz only really needs enough EXP to proc speed once, and he's good until at least chapter 31.

Hector

Marcus

Ninian

8 pplz

Geitz

Geitz competes with other pre-promos for that last 1 or 2 slots. Pent/Harken/Hawkeye. Nor is there any convincing evidence that it's significantly better to train only 8 unpromos instead of 9 or 10. The fact that FE7's unpromoted enemies are indeed so hilariously weak, and that the not-lol enemies are indeed few and far between, lends weight to the argument that slightly lower levels on a larger team during later chapters would not be a significant drawback to training up 1 or 2 more unpromos. On the other hand, if you refuse to give Exp to whatever high/upper mid filler units you're using during early and early-mid as opposed to training them for long-term use, their performance is less useful to you during that time period.

When I said 8 units, I was including Hector and Marcus. So Geitz, Pent, Harken, Hawkeye can all have their own spot.

FE9 HM enemies are also rather lol, but smaller teams are generally assumed for that game. I frankly don't see the point of large teams; if Harken can just plop himself in the middle of a group of enemies in chapter 29 and come out totally unscathed, there is no reason to use 7 or more other units to accomplish the same task.

[CATS]

Of course it does. You were implying that since Bartre and Geitz were doubling the same enemies, that they are necessarily of equal worth, while I said that they're not.

You are making an unrelated point, then. Mine was simply that a unit with significantly lower Spd than Geitz still doubles almost everything in Ch 25; therefore, Geitz being able to double those sorts of enemies is not impressive or special. I just picked a random slow unit to illustrate it. Bartre could join on Ch 24 as a 20/1 Warrior and my point would be the same.

I gave them the Steel Lance because there is no guarantee that they are promoted, pending how large the rest of the team is. 20/2 results in nice numbers for the averages so there would be no rounding shenanigans.

If it's a small team they're almost certainly promoted.

Hector

Marcus

Ninian

Priscilla

Erk

Raven

You already don't have room to use all the knight crest units on your 8 man team.

On a larger team, you get two knight crests by Ch 24, and the earth seal during the chapter. Granted that you won't be able to get the earth seal to whoever wants to use it in time for it to matter, except maybe if you have a trained Florina, but at the same time, Geitz gets screwed over for Ch 24 as well, so w/e. By the time Ch 26 (the next map with wyverns) rolls around, you can have 3 knight crest units promoted. At this point I'd argue that either you promote one in LHM to make them all promoted at a reasonable time, or don't use all 4 of them, since the next promo opportunity is at the start of NoF. Ugh. Either way, Geitz should hardly find himself competing against a cavalier that's running around at 20/0 from Ch 23-24 all the way up through 28x.

I didn't complain about Oswin's AS or his speed. I complained about his movement plus lack of bows.

Indeed, and in exchange he has the obvious advantage of a massive durability lead. In some situations Geitz's superior movement and range might serve you better (BBD being the main example I can think of). In others Oswin may be more useful as he may be able to keep going for longer without healing or take on more enemies safely (20 AS swordmaster guarding the throne room in PFoD, I'm looking at you).

Being 3RKO'd in Erk's case and 2RKO'd in Lucius's case is a giant problem.

And in exchange they give you staves and higher offense. Steel sword heroes in PFoD Kenneth have around 15 AS; Erk and Lucius get 19 at 20/6. Pascal and the Crazed Beast warrior have 11-12 AS. etc. On the defensive side, they give you staves. Barrier and restore are particularly notable for CoD. If you count the value of staves as just giving +1 RKO for them in the above comparison, now they're 3/4RKO'd vs Geitz being 5RKO'd, with higher offense. I don't see Geitz as being clearly and significantly more overall useful than they are.

Bartre requires a lot EXP to continue being viable by the time the Geitz joins. Geitz only really needs enough EXP to proc speed once, and he's good until at least chapter 31.

Of course. That's entirely aside from my point here, which is that Bartre contributes more by virtue of having 4 maps of free deployment, without ever fielding him again.

FE9 HM enemies are also rather lol, but smaller teams are generally assumed for that game. I frankly don't see the point of large teams; if Harken can just plop himself in the middle of a group of enemies in chapter 29 and come out totally unscathed, there is no reason to use 7 or more other units to accomplish the same task.

Well, by that logic, Geitz is once again rly trivial. So what if he gives you an 8th or 9th unit who can plop down in the middle of a group of enemies and come out totally unscathed, when you already have so many powerful units? During Bartre's very early chapters you only have two units who can do that instead of the whole team, and only one who can do it while also one-rounding everything. And really, Marcus is still probably in more danger from a large mob of enemies in 13x than whatever trained top tier unit is from a swarm of unpromoted riff-raff during the lategame.

Regardless, the point is that if you can use a larger team and get at least equivalent results, then Geitz + small team is not superior to the alternative, and thus insignificant.