FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

I don't necessarily agree that promoting a healer allows him to level up faster. You lose out on staff EXP and all you get in return is extra EXP for attacking with like 14 atk. Most of the time you'd be using a staff anyway instead of attacking.

[grandjackal]

I don't necessarily agree that promoting a healer allows him to level up faster. You lose out on staff EXP and all you get in return is extra EXP for attacking with like 14 atk. Most of the time you'd be using a staff anyway instead of attacking.

While this is true, I'd rather have that than someone who's leveling slowly both in healing AND combat, while having very arsy speed on top of it. In the least, Saul having 14 AS after promotion is still a solid argument, along with the fact he retains excellent staff rank.

At worst, Saul will have a point or 2 less range on his staffs later on, but really the heavy duty power staffing probably shouldn't be left to him anyways (He's never gonna have the magic Niime and Yodel have for status or warp). Sounds like a better sacrifice than making Lou suck worse later on to go along with still being pretty assy early on (aside form 1 chapter).

[Colonel M]

I guess the thing with Cath is that we can field her and have her replace Astohl in thievery duties, but why bother? He's more durable and has better offense. You could argue fielding her over Chad to get items in the desert, but that's hardly Mid tier performance.

Aside from the Isles, Asthol doesn't have a real offensive advantage. The reason you're using him over Chad is due to the durability to withstand a long range tome or.a ballista shot. You should be using all 3 thieves in Chapter 14 anyway, and the difference between using Cath or Chad in 16 is minimal.

Does Garret's peak utility even matter outside of C22? Also, unlike Gonzales Garret has inferior offense to many units since he can't double much of anything, so being able to survive a lot of enemies isn't that helpful.

Crit doesn't completely erase his lack of doubling, but helps make up for it. Also, peak climbing is useful in 17 Sacae and can work in Chapter 21 (I might be miscounting, but Chapter 22 is Zephiel) which adds 23. I'd have to look at the numbers, but there's only two chapters where he's "bad" in Ilia (20 and 20X). 19 Sacae has some Wyverns to deal with and the wall to bust through (which Brave Axe is great for). Gonzales has the biggest issue of the number of units that can carry him. Its just Thany and... I think Shin. I think Uncle Dayan had too much Con but I could be wrong. This means flying Gonzo on a peak is heavily reliant on one unit.

I don't have access to a computer at this time, so I can't exactly look at Garret closer.

[-Cynthia-]

Astohl has C Swords, Chad and Cath have E swords. Considering the amount of combat they should be seeing I doubt they'll be using Killers ever. I wouldn't send Astohl against Armors or anything, but there should be a number of enemies he can 4HKO with Killers for a good while.

[Dark Sage]

Or the Light Brand. Ashtol isn't exactly bad with a Light Brand, although Rutger might want it.

Base Cath with an Angelic Robe and perhaps a Barrier/Pure Water can pretty much survive Bolting stuff I believe. At the very least, Chad needs it too to function later on since I doubt he's gaining much levels.

Ch.16 Bolting Mage: 27-29 Atk, 96-98 Hit)

Base Cath with Angelic Robe+Pure Water: 27 HP, 42 evade, 9 Res.

Lv.9 Chad with Angelic Robe+Pure Water with C Lugh: 29 HP, 46 evade, 8.2 Res

Of course Chad is probably underleveled, but I'm not sure what level he'd be at by this stage in the game. Still, the results are barely any different and after Chapter 12, both share the same maps and uses. Cath only gets oneshotted at Base without a Pure Water by the 29 atk Bolting mages. Chapter 20i Ilia has Purge Bishops sitting on 26-28 Atk. I don't know the stats for the mages and sages with bolting and bishops with purge on the Sacae route though.

Still, I think maybe the gap between Cath and Chad should be lessened. Obviously Chad>Cath, since Chad edges her out in availability and supports, but like I said, Chad and Cath perform identically in later maps to survive Bolting and Purges and to steal things. Both get beaten out by Ashtor, but I'm not sure if the early game chests really constitute a two tier gap between them.

I dunno, what bugs me most about Cath is her support list. IS was trolling us because she has a great affinity and she has decent partners who want her bonuses. Problem is, they're slow and some of them like Geese are mediocre. I guess at best, she might get a C with Chad by endgame, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Narga_Rocks]

Of course Chad is probably underleveled, but I'm not sure what level he'd be at by this stage in the game.

Try overleveled. His combat is absolutely terrible and your mounts are mostly devoted to bringing Roy, Dieck, and Rutger towards the enemy. Good luck getting Chad to kill stuff without slowing down. Cath is much more durable than Chad against long range magic when she shows up. Granted your point is that Cath performs somewhat well when she appears, but I'm just saying she actually outdoes him from the moment of her recruitment.

However, thieves become much less important as the game goes on. Chad has important use early on since you don't get chest keys at first and there is a fair amount of good stuff he gets you. I'm not sure Cath needs to be closer at all.

[Colonel M]

Astohl has C Swords, Chad and Cath have E swords. Considering the amount of combat they should be seeing I doubt they'll be using Killers ever. I wouldn't send Astohl against Armors or anything, but there should be a number of enemies he can 4HKO with Killers for a good while.

Killing Edges are in low supply until Chapter 13, and by that point the Isles bullshit is over. Chapter 14 is full of fucking Wyverns, Mercenaries, all kinds of stuff he doesn't want to combat. In Chapter 16... why bother having him combat stuff? A lot of the enemies consist of Armor Knights anyhow. We're also talking 7 Str, which is okay on the Isles primarily because he can dodge a hit, but starting in Chapter 13 on? Forget it. I mean, yeah, sure, you can use him for some semblance of combat in the Isles and I don't ignore that. What I am ignoring is everywhere else since he's absolute shit elsewhere.

He can double some of the Mages, but they have to be on the low end, or assuming at the least a Spd proc. He needs two to permanently double them. So okay, maybe "some" combat worth in Chapter 16, but it really isn't saying much.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Dark Sage]

I don't know, it just seems to me that while Chad might deserve a tier over Cath, he certainly doesn't deserve two. Ashtol>>Both of them, so maybe a tier gap between him and Ashtor?

Speaking of which, what does Chad get you early on?

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure if Astohl outclassing Chad outweighs all the stuff Chad gets you for the first few chapters. Here's an approximate list of what he can get you before Astohl shows up.

3000 G

Halberd

5000 G

3000 G

Unlock

Short Bow

Killer Axe

Goddess Icon

Silver Lance

2000 G

Rapier

Barrier

Lockpick/Red Gem/ lots of Vulns are stealable

There is a Chest Key, but considering Chad has to steal it that hardly counts against him.

[Narga_Rocks]

That list is pretty much why Astol will never be above Chad. Sure, Astol is the thief of choice after he appears, pretty much, but his combat isn't all that great and since he's only marginally better than Chad anyway it's not like the items he gets can overrule the stuff Chad gets early on. Astol has to spread the credit, Chad doesn't.

[Balcerzak]

Ch3:

3000 G

Halberd

Both of these will likely carry an opportunity cost in terms of turns, unless you somehow are managing to clear the boss with the Armorslayer, and the armors with the Hammer. I don't know how plausible that is, as it's already an interesting feat to rescue chain Roy along for the quick clear here.

Ch 6:

5000 G

3000 G

Unlock

Short Bow

Killer Axe

Goddess Icon

Silver Lance

2000 G

Lockpick

In a timely completion, I can see a player collecting maybe half of these + Sue. Perhaps even less.

Ch7:

Rapier

Barrier

Red Gem

I can easily see all of that going Chad's way without incurring any turn costs.

Also, I thought the first (two) Chest Keys were stolen in Ch8, so he and Ashtol can split claims to that, but maybe I misremembered. Either way, there is some sizeable contribution here, even if (as is likely) only about half of the listed assets are acquired.

[-Cynthia-]

Site data indicates that two Chest Keys can be stolen in C8. I was talking about the stealable Chest Key in C6.

Chad probably won't get all the items listed, no need wasting time getting things like Short Bows, but he can collect a good number of them, yes.

[Psych]

He can also grab Cath's Chapter 6 Lockpick should the need be.

[Dark Sage]

3000 G

Halberd

Both of these are immensely useful and he deserves full credit here.

10,000 G

Unlock

Lockpick

Goddess Icon

Short Bow

Killer Axe

Silver Lance

10,000 gold is always great, but they're divided into seperate amounts in different chests. The lockpick's not necessary and neither is the scrubby shortbow and goddess icon. Lol Unlcok. Killer Axe and Silver Lance are the main items you want him to grab.

Chapter 7, I believe Chest Keys are available for purchase, though Red Gems are available to steal. So I guess there's a good reason for Chad to go there, but still.

So in his chapters, the main good stuff to be credited soley for him are:

Halberd

Killer Axe

Silver Lance

13,000 gold

Which is nice and all but I dunno. I'm still not sure if that's better than Ashtol being flat out better than him in all the chapters they share and being able to serve as a secondhand combatant in the Isles.

I guess it's the same logic as Matthew>Legault?

Edited December 31, 2010 by Dark Sage

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I can't really see Chad getting any of the chests from 3 in a fast enough manner, seeing as not only are the chests out of the way of the seize square, but the two knights guarding the treasure are quite durable and only quickly dispatched by the armorslayer, which is probably going toward killing the boss.

In 6, Chad's probably going to only be able to get to one room (I'd go for the left money room) since the quickest way to the end is straight and fast.

In 7, the chests are probably the least likely to be gotten on time since they are clearer farther away than the boss from the starting point.

It'd probably be more definitive with playthrough backing, but in efficient efficiency, Chad's picking up maybe 8000g.

[Narga_Rocks]

How many turns are you thinking for chapter 6? I could have seized on turn 8 (I think) and would have gotten 6 chests + Sue. I think. I got all of them in 11 turns.

[Balcerzak]

I can't really see Chad getting any of the chests from 3 in a fast enough manner, seeing as not only are the chests out of the way of the seize square, but the two knights guarding the treasure are quite durable and only quickly dispatched by the armorslayer, which is probably going toward killing the boss.

In 6, Chad's probably going to only be able to get to one room (I'd go for the left money room) since the quickest way to the end is straight and fast.

In 7, the chests are probably the least likely to be gotten on time since they are clearer farther away than the boss from the starting point.

It'd probably be more definitive with playthrough backing, but in efficient efficiency, Chad's picking up maybe 8000g.

Indeed, I quite agree, and mentioned as such.

In my draft run Chad went to the left money room. In an ordinary room, giving him an escort would have given him about three extra action, so he could probably get Sue's room open as well, so Roy could talk to her. Alternately, if you had Chad go up the RHS and used the Door Key for Sue you might get any three of the treasures from over there: Silver Lance, Killer Axe,and Goddess Icon would probably be the ones I'd put priority on.

I had no problem getting to the chests in Ch7 with Chad though I skipped the red gem (navigating wyverns at this stage I think will be way more trouble than the payoff is worth). For this chapter, an actual run might go even quicker, having better units to work with, in which case he might be under pressure (in which case I'd recommend leaving the Rapier behind).

Narga: A 6 turn on Ch 6 is possible if you abandon Sue, but since Sue gets Shin, such decision is unlikely to be undertaken in most instances. I think a 7 turn with Sue is possible, but cannot recall.

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga: A 6 turn on Ch 6 is possible if you abandon Sue, but since Sue gets Shin, such decision is unlikely to be undertaken in most instances. I think a 7 turn with Sue is possible, but cannot recall.

Assuming 7 turns, not sure how many you could get. He could clear the entire right side pretty easily, but the biggest money chests are on the left side. Goddess Icon could be useful for making Rutger less prone to crits, or could be another 4000. You can probably get the two money chests on the left as well as the Killer Axe and the icon fairly easy.

I suppose the two money chests + Killer Axe + Silver Lance would be difficult, but I'm not certain it is impossible in 7 turns.

[Salad Utensil]

Can I ask something to be clarified? :)

I was under the assumption that tier lists ranked units over how much they contribute toward completing an efficient play through. I assumed this meant ranking characters based on how much easier they would make completing the game successfully if you use them, without tactics like arena and boss abuse as it causes all characters to become the same. The idea if a character lowered turncount, they are ranked better in efficiency, because this can be measured objectively (its a number) and we assume that the turns are lower because we are using better characters, right?

This seems confusing because I don't see a reason besides turncount to not get all the chests possible because logically, spending the extra turns to get the less necessary items is only helpful toward ease in completing the game (i.e. the shortbow and lockpick can be sold, the fluid gold might cost additional turns, but allow you to buy better weapons/staves later so enemies can be cleared easier). Now with careful planning I assume none of the additional chests are necessary besides listed by Narga_Rocks, but certainly would be helpful/not harmful if it makes the game easier to complete.

On the other end of the spectrum, thieves if not used for combat and turncounts are the only thing that matters, they are probably never necessary at all (except desert). You get enough money throughout the game and if most promotion items end up not used can be sold as well, if you plan to use a small team and lots of prepromotes like in 0% growth playthroughs that Dondon151 had. You would probably clear chapters faster with an additional combat unit or healer instead of a thief.

If the list uses the second criteria then I think Chad should drop a lot as he isn't necessary if not forced or in the desert.

[Rewjeo]

On the other end of the spectrum, thieves if not used for combat and turncounts are the only thing that matters, they are probably never necessary at all (except desert). You get enough money throughout the game and if most promotion items end up not used can be sold as well, if you plan to use a small team and lots of prepromotes like in 0% growth playthroughs that Dondon151 had. You would probably clear chapters faster with an additional combat unit or healer instead of a thief.

Sure, they aren't NECESSARY, but neither are Alan and Lance. I don't know if there's ever a point when someone is truly necessary in this game(it's been a very long time since I played this), just incredibly helpful.

Although the thief is not saving turns by opening the chest, the *insert helpful item here* will probably save you more turns than either an extra healer or your worst combat unit (whoever they replace) will in that one chapter. Especially if that thief is getting us several items.

As far as I understand, efficiency has nothing to do with ease of completing the game. It has to do with completing the game quickly (how close to maximum speed is debated, though) in a reliable manner. For example, although Gilliam can make much of FE8 very easy by tanking the entire game, he's ranked poorly because he slows you down. Well, and Seth, but even if Seth is ignored, he's not very helpful.

[Dark Sage]

Well actually Marcus is necessary for any sort of efficiency early on, or just plain surviving (looking at you chapter 1), which is why he is top tier, or at the very least was moving there awhile back.

However, I'm more interested in how much Chad's exclusive thieving is over Ashtol's. 13,000 (17,000 if you picked up a Red Gem) is nothing to sneeze at. The Halberd makes Chapter 4 a lot easier and Marcus always would like a second Silver Lance. The Killer Axe is also pretty good as well, although you don't get a replacement for awhile.

Still, Chad's mostly useless on his forced chapters sans Chapter 3. I don't think there has been a single time Chad has actually contributed in Chapter for instance, and in Chapter 5, he usually gets oneshotted and can barely damage. He can dodge ok I guess, but he's barely doing much.

As for the old mage question, I could see Lugh dropping a bit.

Finally Merlinus should not be on the list. At all.

[Anouleth]

Well actually Marcus is necessary for any sort of efficiency early on, or just plain surviving (looking at you chapter 1), which is why he is top tier, or at the very least was moving there awhile back.

However, I'm more interested in how much Chad's exclusive thieving is over Ashtol's. 13,000 (17,000 if you picked up a Red Gem) is nothing to sneeze at. The Halberd makes Chapter 4 a lot easier and Marcus always would like a second Silver Lance. The Killer Axe is also pretty good as well, although you don't get a replacement for awhile.

Still, Chad's mostly useless on his forced chapters sans Chapter 3. I don't think there has been a single time Chad has actually contributed in Chapter for instance, and in Chapter 5, he usually gets oneshotted and can barely damage. He can dodge ok I guess, but he's barely doing much.

Well, the funny thing about Chad is that because his HP sucks enemies will try to kill him even when they have single-digit hit (not hard with all the forests, Chad only needs to gain two levels to have 29 avoid, which goes up to 59 with a Forest and WTA). Plus, they'll always try to use Hand Axe which is even less accurate. Enemy AI is funny. Plus, even at base level he has 9 attack against them, which is like a 4HKO with doubling, which is on par with a lot of characters. So you can easily plonk him on a Forest and watch all the enemies fail to kill him while he weakens everything for someone like Lot or a cavalier to finish.

Enemy AI is funny.

[Colonel M]

It's pretty normal for Enemy AI to attack whichever unit they can damage the most or when they won't receive a counterattack. What's really funny is when they damage a unit that can counterattack and technically attack an enemy where they won't receive a counterattack (though that's more likely in FE12 from what it seems).

[Sasori]

I'm not that good with tier lists, but do you all mind if I ask a question?

Why is Lilina above Hugh? She needs to be promoted to match hugh's base speed and she has a lower growth, so Hugh can do more damage if there are enemies he can double and she can't. Lilina also does more harm then good when she joins and while Hugh is by no means an amazing unit when he joins, he isn't a burden either.

[Anouleth]

I'm not that good with tier lists, but do you all mind if I ask a question?

Why is Lilina above Hugh? She needs to be promoted to match hugh's base speed and she has a lower growth, so Hugh can do more damage if there are enemies he can double and she can't. Lilina also does more harm then good when she joins and while Hugh is by no means an amazing unit when he joins, he isn't a burden either.

Lilina does more damage to everything that both of them don't double (or both of them successfully double). So if she's level 18 in Chapter 16, she has 10 speed to his 12. The only things he doubles and she doesn't are a few Steel Axe Fighters, while she is winning against literally everything else on the map. That's not forgetting that to get Hugh, we need to spend money. We could very easily save ourselves 5000 gold and get the cheap version of Hugh, whereas if Hugh wants to even be able to match Lilina in speed, we need to spend more.

Meanwhile, Lilina has good supports with Gonzales and Roy. This gives her up to +4 attack and +25 crit, as well as having naturally +5 magic over Hugh. This means that she crushes him in offense. Or we could promote her somewhat earlier and have her blick stuff with Forblaze and Aircalibur while staffing.