FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

i'll go through this tier by tier. i'm pretty sure this is HM (strangely, not specified in the OP) because otherwise rutger would be several tiers lower.

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Rutger
Percival
Marcus
Thany
Alan
Lance
Lalum
Elphin

allen and lance don't belong in this tier. i'm not sure if shanna should be this high up, either. order is fine otherwise.

-High Tier-
Zealot
Clarine
Dieck
Asthol
Chad
Saul
Ellen

so from above, allen, lance, and shanna move down to here. clarine either doesn't belong here or deserves to be below saul. chad should be a couple of tiers lower because he's just so much worse than astor. astor can do quite a bit combat-wise in a pinch; chad can't do anything and his only unique contribution is a result of early availability. ellen needs to move down at least a tier because saul is way better.

summary: allen, lance, shanna move to here. allen and lance should at least be below zealot. clarine, chad, and ellen move out. deke might move down, too. saul needs to move up at least within this tier, if not up a tier.

-Upper Mid-

Shin
Tate
Cecilia
Niime
Klein
Echinda
Gonzales

from above, clarine moves in. deke might move in, and chad and ellen should be further down. shin and niime are super important units and i think both should be in high tier. gonzalez doesn't belong here at all.

zeiss should be here; igrene should be here; i would argue noah and yodel as well.

the rest i don't care about. sue should be mid tier at worst.

EDIT: for your convenience, the upper tiers with my suggested changes

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Rutger
Percival
Marcus
Lalum
Elphin

-High Tier-

Saul
Zealot

Shanna

Niime

Shin
Tate

Astor
Alan
Lance

-Upper Mid-

Zeiss

Deke

Yodel
Cecilia

Clarine
Klein

Igrene

Noah
Echidna

no doubt some of this will be controversial! i'm not going to bother reasoning through everything unless otherwise prompted to.

Edited April 11, 2014 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Dondon you know I am king of tldr.

Does Shanma = Thany by the way?

(Also ofc this is HM...).

[dondon151]

yes shanna is thany. there's also ray -> raigh but who cares about raigh.

[PKL]

It's arguable whether Rutger>Perceval imo. Sure, he has the best bosskilling for early to mid game, but hes just that, an on-foot boss killer. Perceval is a mount bosskiller and has great combat. And Cecilia should probably be over Clarine in dondon's list. What does Clarine even do? Ceciiia comes with C staves already and an actual tome rank. I agree with most of don's list though.

Edited April 11, 2014 by PKL

[Colonel M]

yes shanna is thany. there's also ray -> raigh but who cares about raigh.

Fanboys.

Im a little surprised on a couple suggestions so I may just need a rehash on it.

1) Saul over Zealot seems a little funny. My guess is a lot of this has to do with Warp and Rescue. Ill have to think this one out.

2) I dont know about Thany out of Top. Like Lalum / Elphin she holds a unique niche that cannot really be duplicated barring when Tate enters the scene and, even then, her contributions become massive.

3) For measurement purposes how far did you use Clarine? Her Mag is admittidely a major drawback but she is still a mounted unit.

[dondon151]

i think in a growths context, many of the bosskills that perceval can get would still go to rutger. perceval is the next best bosskiller, but he has no crit bonus and his hit rates leave much to be desired. unless i'm killing the boss with a bow or a horseslayer, i would rather use rutger for bosskilling provided i can get him there without sacrificing a turn.

clarine > cecilia was an oversight and i'll switch that around now.

[dondon151]

1) Saul over Zealot seems a little funny. My guess is a lot of this has to do with Warp and Rescue. Ill have to think this one out.

it's mostly just warp; he's also the earliest barrier and physic user, which are both pretty big.

2) I dont know about Thany out of Top. Like Lalum / Elphin she holds a unique niche that cannot really be duplicated barring when Tate enters the scene and, even then, her contributions become massive.

i think we've overestimated what shanna does. we used to be like, "oh look at the chapter 5 strategy," but that has since been improved to 3 turns with shanna having much less involvement. when both she and tate are around, i'd argue that tate is better as well.

3) For measurement purposes how far did you use Clarine? Her Mag is admittidely a major drawback but she is still a mounted unit.

the last map in which i really used clarine was chapter 13. mounted healer doesn't get her any higher than where she is right now. she's never going to reach promotion in the rapidly quickening efficiency context.

EDIT: my apologies for the double post.

Edited April 11, 2014 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Expanding a little further on dondon's post, Rutger's combat outside of bosses is okay. Rutger is very clutch for heavy Avoid bosses like almost of Sacae too. Wyrmslayer / Durandal / Armorslayer lets Rutger kill the majority of bosses (Killing Edge too obviously).

i think we've overestimated what shanna does. we used to be like, "oh look at the chapter 5 strategy," but that has since been improved to 3 turns with shanna having much less involvement. when both she and tate are around, i'd argue that tate is better as well.

I would say in terms of a single flying unit utilized as a Rescue user Tate is superior to Shanna everyday.

However, I feel that one problem is that Shanna can Combine with the other fliers and make crossing a lot of the impassable terrain in some maps a breeze. This is especially true in Ilia where there are a slew of mountains and forests blocking the way.

I guess I see where it is slightly overestated, but I do actually think she deserves Top. Perhaps lower than Elphin and Lalum, but I just find it a little hard to really accept.

I wamted to take Zeiss at least slowly and maybe Dieck too. Gonzo also since lolaccuracy. But I dont mind the majority of the chamges you made otherwise.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Colonel M

[Espinosa]

Am I alone in thinking HM Shin is a Top Tier unit? Chapter 16 is his time to shine in LTC context, but his mid-lategame is all-around impeccable. I'd compare him to Marcus without much hesitation in spite of the bowlock.

Similarly, Walt and Dorothy should rise as potential bow users. Toothache had a draft video series where his Dorothy wasn't shabby at all, with very good utility expected of an archer. A rise above the Generals at the very least shouldn't be an unreasonable change.

[Colonel M]

Sorry for the double post but it's important I promise. This is, at the moment, the Revised Tier List as of today:

REVISED 4/11/2014

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Rutger
Percival
Marcus
Lalum
Elphin

-High Tier-

Saul
Zealot

Shanna

Niime

Shin
Tate

Astor
Alan
Lance

-Upper Mid-

Zeiss

Deke

Yodel
Cecilia

Clarine
Klein

Igrene

Noah
Echidna

-Mid-

Sue

Chad

Bartre
Garret
Fa
Fir
Lot
Lugh
Ray

-Lower Mid-

Roy

Cath

Ward
Oujay
Geese
Lilina

-Low Tier-

Walt
Juno
Hugh
Douglas
Barth
Merlinus
Bors
Dorothy
Karel

-Utter Shit-

Sophia

Wendy

For now I am going to let Shanna slip to High; however, I would like to encourage discussion on her, some of the lower tier units, and even any of the higher units if felt necessary.

EDIT: GDI EVERYONE POSTING BEFORE ME LOL.

Am I alone in thinking HM Shin is a Top Tier unit? Chapter 16 is his time to shine in LTC context, but his mid-lategame is all-around impeccable. I'd compare him to Marcus without much hesitation in spite of the bowlock.

Similarly, Walt and Dorothy should rise as potential bow users. Toothache had a draft video series where his Dorothy wasn't shabby at all, with very good utility expected of an archer. A rise above the Generals at the very least shouldn't be an unreasonable change.

I'm not sure on Shin rising much further - there are a couple of reasons I state this:

1) Shin, no matter how you slice it, is primarily locked to Bows. It isn't terrible, but it is a minor con that harms his combat slightly (mainly he's limited a little on EXP).

2) The people above him make a lot of major contributions themselves. Niime is the best Warp user in the game, Zealot is probably your #1 unit most of the time in Western Isles, etc.

I'm not opposed to him completely on rising though. Feel free to argue things out.

I rose Walt a little bit. No problem raising Dorothy slightly but I doubt I would put Walt and Dorothy much higher.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Colonel M

[Espinosa]

Should Astor and Chad Kroeger really be separated by as many as two tiers? I know dondon's fond of Astor's 0% growths fighting during the Isles portion of the game, but it stops being satisfactory really quickly and the only difference between the two becomes hard durability when thieving / using torches, plus maybe combat against the mages in a warpskip strat of C16 - but Chad can also be trained until then, levelling up very quickly with many opportunities to level up and without many growth units competing for earlygame exp (it seems the order would be something like Rutger > Roy > Thany > maybe 1 cav; while Chad's not too high on that list, he might as well take a portion of the earlygame exp to continue performing thieving utility, with an availability lead above Astor to boost).

[Baldrick]

IMO Their placement depends on whether you consider treasure implicitly important, or just as a means to fund your army. If the former, Chad should be above Astor in High since even if he performs worse mid-game, he has exclusive claim to treasure before Astor exists. If the latter, Astor to Upper Mid and Chad to Mid. No more than a tier's difference between the two since Astor's lead is tempered by buyable Chest Keys.

[Xator Nova]

Treck isn't on the list. Lower-Mid due to unsalvageable combat, but mounted, which is useful in Chapter 8 and later maps. Definitely above Ogier.

Gonzalez isn't on the list, either. He should be a tier higher than Geese definitely. Mid-Tier.

Shoudn't Juno be higher than Walt just in virtue of being an 8-move flier?

Isn't Dorothy kind of necessary for Chapter 7 against the wyverns? I think that should be worth at least more than Bors.

I agree with the Top Tier 100%, and I think High and Upper-Mid are quite accurate.

[PKL]

Theres no way Raigh should be above Roy. I find he's very crippled by dark tome's hit, his con and his base spd. And there's no way he's comparable to Lugh. Safe, reliable magic chip is at least better than Lott's...uh whatever he does. And I think Geese should go lower.

Edited April 12, 2014 by PKL

[Refa]

IMO Their placement depends on whether you consider treasure implicitly important, or just as a means to fund your army. If the former, Chad should be above Astor in High since even if he performs worse mid-game, he has exclusive claim to treasure before Astor exists. If the latter, Astor to Upper Mid and Chad to Mid. No more than a tier's difference between the two since Astor's lead is tempered by buyable Chest Keys.

Astor is probably up there because Chest Keys are expensive and the game hands out a lot of high use Lockpicks. Gotta save that money for the boots or something. Don't really see why he's significantly above Chad, but I guess it's because he survives Boltings with a RES boost or something.

[Dark Sage]

Chad is so bad once Bolting shows up.

Like, even Cath can survive one bolting with Pure Water + Robe but Chad can't even do that iirc.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Jack Frost

[dondon151]

Am I alone in thinking HM Shin is a Top Tier unit? Chapter 16 is his time to shine in LTC context, but his mid-lategame is all-around impeccable. I'd compare him to Marcus without much hesitation in spite of the bowlock.

no, i don't think so. you do need a mounted bow user in this game, and shin is definitely very good. but he's always a team player. i would say that you can switch him with zealot, but he's not anywhere near top tier in my opinion, and i don't think he's better than saul.

Should Astor and Chad Kroeger really be separated by as many as two tiers? I know dondon's fond of Astor's 0% growths fighting during the Isles portion of the game, but it stops being satisfactory really quickly and the only difference between the two becomes hard durability when thieving / using torches, plus maybe combat against the mages in a warpskip strat of C16 - but Chad can also be trained until then, levelling up very quickly with many opportunities to level up and without many growth units competing for earlygame exp (it seems the order would be something like Rutger > Roy > Thany > maybe 1 cav; while Chad's not too high on that list, he might as well take a portion of the earlygame exp to continue performing thieving utility, with an availability lead above Astor to boost).

chad's terrible. i hope your suggestion of training chad is a joke. he needs 8 levels to tie astor's base offense (but only has E swords vs. astor's C) and still doesn't even come close to durability. he's about as good as shanna at getting KOs, and shanna needs the EXP much more.

you suggest that astor's combat contributions prior to chapter 12x are negligible, but it's more or less the same sort of deal that's responsible for zealot's current position, since zealot is pretty bad after chapter 13. if you're suggesting that chad should go up because he gets some treasures that astor doesn't get, i personally find that to be somewhat ridiculous. (astor technically gets a claim to half of the chapter 8 treasures because he's free and chad isn't.) you might as well move wolt into upper mid tier for shaving a couple of earlygame turns, then.

Edited April 12, 2014 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

Does Wolt actually save a couple of turns? If so, he could stand to move up.

[Colonel M]

Chad's combat is really hopeless in a game where WEXP is hard to grow. E Swords is pitiful to be honest, and while reaching D isn't that far off and you're stuck with Iron, Chad isn't doing damage to many units barring maybe Mages and Fighters (maybe Archers) and even then the damage is pitiful. His contributions would have to be hinged on his Thief utility - but even some of the things he swipes around is rather minor in comparison to Asthol which has little cost to deploy. Asthol is very easy to keep alive when shit like Bolting enters the fray and is a decent boon in Western Isles (Thief sight is nice in Chapter 9).

[XeKr]

(Also ofc this is HM...).

I meant to confirm if this was HM or not. And I dunno, when you have FE6 Normal Efficiency Tier List Rules in bold letters in the op and just a single passing “HM” mention on the first pages…

Shanna is fine as is, imo. She facilitates efficient clears tremendously while she’s the only flier, but she’s extremely dependent on having very competent fighters around and she’s surrounded by some heavy competition (unless you want to move some of them to top also, which may crowd things. And top looks pretty good atm to me).

Don’t have a strong opinion on the thieves. For the most part I agree that Astor is enough better than Chad while they are around for there to be a sizable gap. It requires substantial effort to feed Chad’s 8 base att self.

[Colonel M]

Taking a look at the items collected in a narrow scope, I think one thing that could be argued againsy Astor is the existence of Chest and Door Keys. Mounted units are usually superior to chest looting which leaves Astor for item stealing duty.

If you look at the realistic items stolen, too, none really appear to be worth stealing until Chapter 16. And it isnt like his combat is really jaw dropping good, either - it mainly lasts through the Western Isles at best.

So I am not completelt opposed to closing the gap on thieves; however, as stated before Chad's thieving contributions would have to be argued on. This isnt easy either because Astor steals precious items like the Delphi Shield.

[grandjackal]

Regarding the thieves, Chad's thievery contributes us...Let's see.

3000G and the Pole Axe from chapter 3. The Pole Axe comes before a chapter that is riddled with horse units, at a part of the game where they're hardest to deal with since your army is still filled with scrubs. Lets Lot or Wade/Ward one shot them, though at the risk of a coinflip. Will also come in handy in chapter 7.

Chapter 6 is one of those chapters that once you kill the boss uber quick, the map is over and you're pretty much free to rob it all because why not? 10K Gold, a Short Bow (more gold I guess), a Killer Axe (I forget if Marcus or Zealot has the rank for this), a Goddess Icon (Rutger tends to face crit against some bosses, namely the 8x boss), a Silver Lance (Why have one silver lance paladin when you could have 2?), and can steal a Chest Key which is always nice. the 10K is 2 pairs of boots in the later secret shop, and the Silver Lance is a nice boon. The rest is arguably value.

Chapter 7 can be argued. At minimum, he steals the Red Gem off the wyvern knight. He can also nab the Barrier staff and the Rapier for free, but you could also just go in with the chapter 3 Door Key and the stolen Chest Key to get the Barrier, but Chad gets you that key so it's still his contribution in a way.

So in total that's 15K, a Pole Axe, a Silver Lance, and a Chest Key which you could argue is what gets you the Barrier staff. The 15K and Silver Lance arguably costs turns, but again chapter 6 is so easy, and that is so much cash I think it could be argued that you have no reason not to nab the treasure there. As for how this compares to Ashtor? I say it wouldn't, but you asked for Chad's thieving contributions before Ashtor shows up, so there it is.

By the way, anyone else think that Igrene should be over Klein? Klein comes earlier and is helpful at the time, but due to bows and being a promote fighting megascrubs at the time, he won't be getting a lot of exp. Certainly not enough to tie Igrene's speed. I'm certainly not giving a sniper a speedwing. The main thing about the speed is that she can have actual offense later without having to resort to the Brave Bow. That's about all I have as for a comparison for now, but I saw they were right next to eachother and figured that'd make for an interesting argument.

[ZemZem]

Chad is so bad once Bolting shows up.

Like, even Cath can survive one bolting with Pure Water + Robe but Chad can't even do that iirc.

Though wouldn't someone like Roy, Tate, Shanna, or Lalum prefer the robe over Cath?

[PKL]

It depends on what this list considers a contribution jackal. If the list cares about turns, it doesnt matter if youre in seizing point by turn 4 in chapter 6 but decide to get the chests "because theyre free". Those turns still count towards your total turncount, whether theyre free or not. Im pretty sure in LTC, going for all those chests is something like 10 turns lost? As for Igrene vs Klein, Igrene's problem is that she has B bows. Wont use Silver for quite awhile and will never get to murgleis. On the other hand, her better base spd might still mean Klein might get replaced by her when she comes. It's a tough comparison, but I feel like Klein has the edge.

[XeKr]

Most of the relevant points in this discussion re: thieving utility were made just a few pages (though years) ago. Page 96ish. Baldrick also mentioned the crux of the issue earlier, whether treasure has inherent value beyond their use to improve the efficiency of clears (bearing in mind the investment to obtain it). I don’t think it does; it’s as arbitrary as slowing down to train and get pointlessly higher/maxed stats.

Considering the low hit rate nature of FE6, personally I’m very accepting of slightly slower but far more consistent clears. Still, I wouldn’t say the majority of that early treasure Chad gets is a big deal. iirc the most valuable thing is the C7 Barrier, given a highly stringent 7 turn (other potential considerations here are the reliability, the reinforcements, and buyable keys in that chapter that might get chain traded over. dondon also theorized a potential 6 turn with growths, but to my knowledge no one has shown it, you skip more items, and the consistency is probably terrible.)

Edited April 12, 2014 by XeKr