FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

To me, it's like starting inventory and/or a storyline event.

What this mean I still can't find it??? Plz halp!!! I need Guiding Ring for Lilina <_< best mage in game...

[Inui]

Lilina has to move somewhere and hit "talk" to get Gonzales, which is already more than what Sophia does for her storyline-like event of getting that Guiding Ring. Lilina is now the best Mage indeed. She recruits Gonzales. Gonzales >>>>>>>> Guiding Ring.

[Colonel M]

Uh... Not really. She just steps on a spot and goes "hey what's this" and doesn't perform any commands or anything. It's unique to her...like starting inventory. She can never attack or contribute anything ever and still get this item just by walking around. It has nothing to do with her performance as a unit.

Well, no, it doesn't really.

Here's the thing though: both are total shit. So, under the most logical circumstance, we look at their "utility". In this scenario, Sophia's "utility" has some value because she allows another Magic user to promote. Now, if you were to honestly use both under as serious units, then we're running into major problems here. Think of this as Nino vs. Renault, only you completely ignore ranks here. The effort putting into Nino is not worth it. With Renault, yeah I guess you can argue that he might be used in combat or could have a deployment slot in Final (if you're fucking crazy that is); however, the netting of Fortify Staff is nice.

While I don't really see a tier difference (they're both shit, they won't be used. Ever), even under the rare, ULTIMATELY RARE CIRCUMSTANCE, that you were to use these units seriously, you'd have to really look at Wendy:

- 19 HP | 4 Str | 3 Skl | 3 Spd | 6 Luck | 8 Def | 1 Res. She gets, literally, doubled by most of the units on the map here barring the Soldiers and Armor Knights, and even they can double her if she pulls out a Steel Lance (and good luck denting their ~13 Def. You do one damage. w00t!).

- Western Isles alone puts her at a huge disadvantage. She barely avoids being doubled by Steel Axe Pirates and Fighters, but just about everyone else is fair game.

- Sophia, while complete and utter shit as well, can at least dodge her biggest weakness: durability, through 2 range. Granted, they both are about as durable as a piece of paper against some scissors.

- It's true Sophia can miss, but at least she can do this thing called damage a unit. Most enemies don't exceed very high in their Res stat, and she has about 11 Atk with Flux. Nothing special, but compare it to something like Wendy's 14 with Steel and hitting the major Def / Res gap. It would take about a 6 Wendy to tie her, but she's in the desert. Good luck with that.

If I were under the scenario that I was absolutely forced to use one of these two, it'd still be Sophia, and this is assuming that I cannot credit Guiding Ring whatsoever, which was agreed with many times over and over again. There is a time where you really need to draw a line with "using a character full time" and "just pretend that the shithead doesn't exist". These two fall under the latter condition, with Sophia's minor win with finding you that Guiding Ring.

Also, I discredited the whole "recruitment clause", which would otherwise give Roy arguments to skyrocket on the tier list because he recruits Clarine, Sue, one of Zealot / Noah / Treck, Cath, Geese, Klein, BARTRE THE BRAVE, Hugh, and Dayan. They may not be substantial, but there's a few utility units in here as well as one of Clarine in here.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Inui]

OH MY GOD READ MY POST

Wendy joins with 79 Hit with Iron and 64 with a Javelin, with 11 and 10 Atk respectively. Even with the Javelin, she's got more than 50 Hit against loldiers, which are plentiful. She has about 60-65 on Steel Bow Archers with Iron. Loldiers only have 2 Def and Archers have a bit more but also less HP. None of those enemies double her at all.

In the next chapter, there are Mercs. Even if the Mercs are rockin' 30 Evd, she has 46 Hit with a Javelin. Just tossing Javelins here and there and poking things with Slim/Iron like loldiers and Archers lets her gain EXP and weapon levels. She can eventually use an Axereaver.

When Sophia joins, she has 75 Hit with her most accurate weapon against enemies with double the avoid of the ones Wendy was facing. Even if she attacks a 40 Evd Merc from afar, she's got very shitty Hit on it. 35? Yeah, GL w/ that Sophia. She can walk up to an Archer up close and have like 45-50 Hit, while Wendy could do the same earlier with 60-65 Hit.

Steel Bow Archers have 5-6 AS. She has 3. Iron Bow ones don't ORKO her.

EVERYTHING KILLS SOPHIA INSTANTLY WHEN SHE JOINS AND FOR A LONG TIME AFTER THAT, AND SHE CAN'T HIT ANYTHING.

[Dat Nick]

Loldiers only have 2 Def and Archers have a bit more but also less Def. None of those enemies double her at all.

Archers do if they're wielding Iron. And these are like the only two types that don't, and this is the only chapter it's going to happen.

When Sophia joins, she has 75 Hit with her most accurate weapon against enemies with double the avoid of the ones Wendy was facing. Even if she attacks a 40 Evd Merc from afar, she's got very shitty Hit on it. 35? Yeah, GL w/ that Sophia. She can walk up to an Archer up close and have like 45-50 Hit, while Wendy could do the same earlier with 60-65 Hit.

Later is nonequivalent to now. Wendy's doing even WORSE against these enemies because there's no way she gained any reasonable amount of levels in such a short timeframe on account of her sucking so badly.

Wendy has really good Lck. She's facing Crit rates? What?

ESSENTIALLY facing crit rates, because if she misses, she's dead, the end.

In the next chapter, there are Mercs. Even if the Mercs are rockin' 30 Evd, she has 46 Hit with a Javelin.

...This is terrible, just so you know. And Mercs actually have defense, like 5-6. And with such a bad hit rate and such unreliable damage, have fun setting up a kill. Iron's risky too because she's dead if she misses, a likely scenario.

This still doesn't account for 50 attacks in a hideously short amount of time (3 chapters, that's when you get the axereaver) btw. But what the hell, I'll bite. I already showed how the axereaver does nothing for her, anyway.

It does? I can raise Wendy. I can't raise Sophia.

I can raise Sophia. I can't raise Wendy.

EVERYTHING KILLS SOPHIA INSTANTLY WHEN SHE JOINS AND FOR A LONG TIME AFTER THAT, AND SHE CAN'T HIT ANYTHING.

WENDY WILL HAVE TO FIGHT THE EXACT SAME ENEMIES AS SOPHIA

why do people have such a hard time grasping this, it's not that hard

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[frat_tastic]

You're assuming that Wendy will be base level in Sofia's joining chapter which isn't the case. We just established the rule that we'll be using these units throughout the whole game. Yeah Wendy blows when she joins, but if we're using her we obviously aren't going to keep her at base level for 8 chapters. She gains levels, she gains hit and ATK and boom, has better hit than Sofia, duh.

Whatev, me arguing with you obviously isn't doing anything for you, and god knows I'm not getting any benefit out of it, but you're comparisons are all totally wrong according to the new standards and rules that have been applied to the list.

And Tyranel basically summed up what has already been established and what sounds the most logical to me, which is that both blow so much that Sofia's guiding ring puts her above Wendy, but not enough to make a tier difference. Which is what I've been saying. But who cares, I'm too blinded by how cool being a dick is making you.

[dondon151]

You're assuming that Wendy will be base level in Sofia's joining chapter which isn't the case. We just established the rule that we'll be using these units throughout the whole game.

Wendy blows for longer, and she's bad, so she blows for a longer time, so she's worse than Sophia

[Rewjeo]

Except enemies don't randomly lose 30 avoid when facing Wendy. Wendy needs like ten levels to tie Sophia's hit. She also ties attack. Before DEF/RES gap. After TEN levels. He's talking about once Sophia shows up. The fact that she wins even after giving Wendy a huge amount of favoritism shows that she's already massively better. Guiding Ring (since most people count it) is enough to potentially put a tier gap there.

Edit: Man, people posted a lot between when I loaded the page and posted this >>

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slize

[Inui]

So Wendy needs kills to get EXP? She can just hit enemies to get EXP. Sophia can't even hit enemies, let alone kill them.

Wendy's not at base level when Sophia joins. Even if she only managed 10/0, she's outperforming Sophia easily outside of that dumb desert.

[Dat Nick]

You're assuming that Wendy will be base level in Sofia's joining chapter which isn't the case. We just established the rule that we'll be using these units throughout the whole game.

Here's what you skipped over. Wendy is not gaining thirteen levels (or however many needed to offset the hit deficiency) in 8.5 chapters with her godawful performance. She won't be base level? She won't be much higher either, because she always sucks all the way around for the entire timeframe. Maybe four levels. If you favor her.

Whatev, me arguing with you obviously isn't doing anything for you, and god knows I'm not getting any benefit out of it, but you're comparisons are all totally wrong according to the new standards and rules that have been applied to the list.

Except they're not. Because it's common sense Wendy will never ever in any circumstances be able to tie Sophia's performance when both exist. Why? Because she needs like 12 or 13 levels just to compensate the difference in hit.

Even if she only managed 10/0

no

period

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[frat_tastic]

I wouldn't call 10 levels in 8 chapters for a unit who joins in CH.8 at level 1 favoritism. Yeah Wendy blows, but according to the tier list rules we're using her, so she's entitles to those levels.

And yes Wendy accumulates negative utility but I still wouldn't say that getting a guiding ring when we can buy them 2 chapters later would make a tier's worth of difference.

[dondon151]

Yeah Wendy blows, but according to the tier list rules we're using her, so she's entitles to those levels.

According to your tier list rules, which you've rolled up into a joint

[Inui]

Well, this conversation's over. I'd have an easier time convincing a brick wall of something. You think Sophia is better when she can't even hit things while Wendy can, and Wendy can't gain 9 levels in many chapters when she gets good EXP just for hitting, and you think Wendy is permanently locked to Javelins. Eh, whatever. Have fun thinking whatever you think, I guess.

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't call 10 levels in 8 chapters for a unit who joins in CH.8 at level 1 favoritism. Yeah Wendy blows, but according to the tier list rules we're using her, so she's entitles to those levels.

who cares if we're using her

If you suck, you have a hard time getting kills. IM A USIN MAH WENDY LOL does not erase that simple fact.

and you think Wendy is permanently locked to Javelins.

if she doesn't want to get killed them um yeah

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[Rewjeo]

Maybe not if they could get those without racking up massive negatives. All it's done is hurt us significantly to get her to compare to Sophia at all. Well, offensively. I haven't looked into defenses yet.

[Rodykitty]

Using a unit the entire game doesn't mean that we have to baby them. If they can't earn kills effectively, then they'll just end up underleveled for a longer time.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Reminder: Do not flame, it isn't necessary. If someone's being stubborn and unwilling to comprehend something, why not just ignore that person and wait for others' input.

PM any questions or comments you may have to anyone in the staff. Do not do so here.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Speedwagon

[frat_tastic]

It doesn't mean that she's not getting any hits or kills. Yes, she blows. DUH. We all know that. But according to the rules (which I didn't make up dondon) we're using her regardless, so 10 levels in that amount of chapters is probably an underestimate anyway.

Defensively Sofia is still probably worse, even with 1-2 range. Doubled by everything with 15 HP and 1 DEF (and its not going up fast anytime soon).

EDIT: I wouldn't call 10 levels in 8 chapters for an underleveled unit babying. I'm not saying we're going to overuse her so she catches up in levels, but that many levels when other characters are probably growing faster anyway seems adequate to me.

Edited March 8, 2010 by frat_tastic

[dondon151]

But according to the rules (which I didn't make up dondon) we're using her regardless, so 10 levels in that amount of chapters is probably an underestimate anyway.

I don't see anything in the OP about babying bad units so you made it all up

[frat_tastic]

10 levels in 8 chapters isn't babying. It's using. We have to assume we're using her, and it's even worse and even more inefficient for us to just leave her at base level, or to give her like 2-3 levels since she's more of a liability and even more useless, so this amount of levels isn't anything rediculous, so no I didn't really make it up.

[Rewjeo]

Even if you assume that enemies average eleven levels above her, and that she averages 60 true hit, she only gets .6*14=8.4+.4[for the 40% of the time she misses] =8.8 experience per round. That's 113-114 rounds of combat. Say, 90 thanks to some kills. Or about TEN battles per chapter. With her 4 MOV and awful durability. Yeah, she can get to 11/0 so that she only loses to Sophia in offense by a little bit. After racking up so much negative that she couldn't possibly hope to win.

[Florete]

Uh... Not really. She just steps on a spot and goes "hey what's this" and doesn't perform any commands or anything. It's unique to her...like starting inventory. She can never attack or contribute anything ever and still get this item just by walking around. It has nothing to do with her performance as a unit.

Like, what the hell? How are you not seeing how this is different? To get, say, Zealot's items from him, I just have to recruit him. I don't have to do anything with him. To get the Guiding Ring, I have to have Sophia and only Sophia move across the map to this space. No one else will work. This is just like Thief utility, so why do they get credit for any of that if Sophia doesn't?

[Inui]

Like, what the hell? How are you not seeing how this is different? To get, say, Zealot's items from him, I just have to recruit him. I don't have to do anything with him. To get the Guiding Ring, I have to have Sophia and only Sophia move across the map to this space. No one else will work. This is just like Thief utility, so why do they get credit for any of that if Sophia doesn't?

Lilina is the best magic user because you have to move her to Gonzales and choose an action in order to add Gonzales and his inventory to your team. You never have to use her to do this, and getting Gonzales is far better than getting a Guiding Ring. You just have her walk to him, like Sophia walks to get a Guiding Ring.

Lalum/Elphin get Percival and two Silver weapons, too. You can't obtain Percival's starting inventory without them.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Inui

[-Cynthia-]

Like, what the hell? How are you not seeing how this is different? To get, say, Zealot's items from him, I just have to recruit him. I don't have to do anything with him. To get the Guiding Ring, I have to have Sophia and only Sophia move across the map to this space. No one else will work. This is just like Thief utility, so why do they get credit for any of that if Sophia doesn't?

Admittedly it is pretty similar to recruitment though, since that involves running the unit up to them and using 'Talk', Sophia runs up and stands on a paticular square, I'm not seeing a huge difference. It's different than giving units credit for their starting inventories though, as those units don't even need to move.

I personally think minor credit could be given for recruitment. Not something like Lilina> Gonzales just because she recruits him, but it could act as a minor point in her favor.

I assumed Sophia didn't get credit for the Ring. If she does, I would suggest she move up even further. I bet we get more out of that Guiding Ring than Wolt's crappy potshots, for example.

Edited March 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

While you are correct that the list assumed that the unit would be used, they would still be used efficiently as well. This still stands forever as an efficient tier list (no it is not a maximum tier list), so there are many things such as the drastic opportunity costs of training shitheads like these two.

Honestly, this is just one of those situations where I ask "stop". A Wendy vs. Sophia debate just goes into this:

Pro Sophia: Both are shit, but I have Guiding Ring

Pro Wendy: Both are shit, but I have earlygame

In all honesty, if we are using these two to their best, between utility and long-term, they're going to be used for their utility. Which has the more sound one? Sophia, because she nets you a promotional item that no one else can get and she passes the resource to someone else. Wendy can just chip an enemy if she's lucky and pray to Jesus Christ himself that she doesn't have a Javelin | Steel Lance equipped or has her brother Bors fielded in the chapter, which "forget that". The promise is more of an option to prevent characters who might have some combat parameters, such as Treck and Garret, from suffering a "double penalty" because of recruitment cost or "this is max efficiency who cares?" We still value what the unit contributes to efficiency, which is what is being sorely missed here (and, to an extent, overreacted).

Cynthia, she has always gotten credit for her Guiding Ring. Even so, Walt comes free in his 5 chapters and can at least potshot for something without major protection (he does not die in one round like Sophia does). While the Guiding Ring is indeed useful, Walt's utility during his earlygame chapters >>>>>>>>>> Sophia's. The Guiding Ring is more of a tiebreaker vs. Wendy.

Lilina is the best magic user because you have to move her to Gonzales and choose an action in order to add Gonzales and his inventory to your team. You never have to use her to do this, and getting Gonzales is far better than getting a Guiding Ring. You just have her walk to him, like Sophia walks to get a Guiding Ring.

Lalum/Elphin get Percival and two Silver weapons, too. You can't obtain Percival's starting inventory without them.

Again, we are not recognizing recruitment costs here or units such as Roy would skyrocket on the tier list because he recruits Clarine, Zealot, Klein, etc. Remember that Sohpia finds the item, not necessarily comes with the item.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Tyranel M