FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

However this gets into tautological arguments saying that the "best and efficient" players would not use Treck besides some pot shots with Javilens b/c they would use Thany in the long run instead because the tier list says so. If Thany and Treck's position swapped arbitrarily, using Thany would always be negative because Treck is better because the list says so even Thany was more useful.

Completely false. We never argue using such circular logic, i.e. a unit is not justified for being above another unit by that same fact. You getting causality confused here - a unit is elevated because he is found to be more optimal, but he is not found to be more optimal because he is elevated.

Ray's positive utility peaks after promotion, but under the opportunity cost argument he can never reach that because he isn't used to begin with because the tier list says so.

So then you determine the cost of using Ray pre-promotion against the benefit of using Ray post-promotion. I will assure you that the sum of these two elements is negative. Units in general improve slowly - they must improve relative to the enemies, who are also improving; they gain fractions of stats upon leveling up; they require many rounds of combat to level up. Furthermore, the later in the game you are, the more awesome units there are to compete with. So in reality, the next best unit after Ray may only be slightly worse post-promotion, meaning that the marginal benefit of using Ray is less compared to his marginal cost pre-promotion. This is not even considering the fact that due to promotion bonuses, most units peak performance after promotion, so Ray might not even be a net positive.

This is by no means a rule set in stone, but it occurs often enough that it serves as a general rule of thumb. The only exceptions I can think of of units who go from bad to really good in a relatively short amount of time are Wolf and Sedgar, and their current tier positions reflect that.

AP Economic concepts barely even apply to real world firms let alone Fire Emblem

If you're suggesting that the entire branch of economics is unsubstantiated bullshit, a lot of people would beg to differ.

Edited March 8, 2010 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

read what i'm accusing you of plz

Okay:

Seriously, knock it off. I made a post describing how much Wendy sucks when levelled and you hand-wave it with biased testimonials. Over and over again. Start using actual reasoning as to why Wendy doesn't suck instead of repeating "BUH MY BEST FRIEND BILLY BOB SEZ SHES GOOD WHEN TRAINED"

I said that it's possible to train her up. I also said it was horribly inefficient. You said that I was saying that she was good, quite clearly. So, yes, you WERE saying that I was saying she was good when I never made any mention of her being good at all.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slize

[Dat Nick]

Okay:

No; the whole thing.

when levelled

I gave you a 10/0 Wendy and she was still absolute shitballs. No matter how much you try it, it is just ridiculously hard to give a unit with 4 move, 4 strength, 9 base hit, and no durability kills. So even if you try to favor her, it doesn't change much at all.

[Rewjeo]

Yeah, ridiculously hard. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's at all efficient. I'm not saying it's at all reasonable. I'm not saying it won't take dozens of resets and a hundred turns. I'm not saying you'll get anything good out of it. I'm saying it is _possible_. Just _possible_. Just like it's _possible_ for all the subatomic particles in your body and a wall to line up just perfectly so that you could walk through it. Hilariously improbable, but _possible_.

In other words, the word possible is both key and to be taken very literally.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slize

[Dat Nick]

My god, this is a fucking massive waste of time. I am not going to bother with you anymore. Colonel, just credit Sophia for the guiding ring and move her up already.

[Inui]

I find Wendy to be possible to level up. I can't imagine how you can ever level up Sophia to promotion. She can't hit anything.

[Dat Nick]

Then how is Wendy hitting anything when she has WORSE accuracy than Sophia and can't damage shit when she does?

[Inui]

The enemies she is facing have terribad Evd. Loldiers, for instance. She also has the option to use a Slim Lance. She's not doing 0 damage all the time, if ever. She can use an Axereaver for axe users, right? Sophia joins when enemies having 30+ avoid is common.

[Colonel M]

Sophia was already over Wendy due to her getting the Guiding Ring.

[Dat Nick]

She also has the option to use a Slim Lance.

Do you realize what you're saying before you say it? Now her attack is 8. I.e, it's completely useless. How are you going to set up a kill for 8 attack? Oh, and she can still miss, too, and if that ever happens she's toast.

he can use an Axereaver for axe users, right?

Yeah. Too bad it doesn't change anything since it weighs her AS down to nothing and causes her to get doubled; and 15 avoid isn't reliably dodging axes.

And she also doesn't have the rank. You don't get 50 attacks in 3 chapters no matter who you are. ESPECIALLY not if you're Wendy.

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[frat_tastic]

Sophia is already above Wendy, and both are so failtastic that Sophia is not a tier above Wendy, what are you trying to even accomplish here?

[Dat Nick]

and both are so failtastic that Sophia is not a tier above Wendy

wow that really convinced me i'm wrong

[frat_tastic]

What have you done to convince anyone you're right? All you've done is say how awful Wendy is. DUH. Wendy blows. So does Sophia, everyone already knows that, and Sophia's position has already taken the Guiding Ring into account. How is she a tier better when she's significantly worse than everyone above her, and only marginally better than Wendy?

[Salad Utensil]

Completely false. We never argue using such circular logic, i.e. a unit is not justified for being above another unit by that same fact. You getting causality confused here - a unit is elevated because he is found to be more optimal, but he is not found to be more optimal because he is elevated.

I've never disagreed with directly comparing units in that fashion, I disagree with units being compared and penalized for opportunity costs, which appears to be what happened with that Wendy/Treck controversy.

So then you determine the cost of using Ray pre-promotion against the benefit of using Ray post-promotion. I will assure you that the sum of these two elements is negative. Units in general improve slowly - they must improve relative to the enemies, who are also improving; they gain fractions of stats upon leveling up; they require many rounds of combat to level up. Furthermore, the later in the game you are, the more awesome units there are to compete with. So in reality, the next best unit after Ray may only be slightly worse post-promotion, meaning that the marginal benefit of using Ray is less compared to his marginal cost pre-promotion. This is not even considering the fact that due to promotion bonuses, most units peak performance after promotion, so Ray might not even be a net positive.

This doesn't at all respond to what appears to be that Ray being deployed at all is a negative, since his opportunity cost of being used means that Alan doesn't get used which implies that Ray never is able to gain any positive utility at all since Ray will never be better than Alan...If Ray is never used he never gains any utility besides his join chapter? Alan is used because it was established that he is top tier material. If a deity established that Ray was top tier material, than only then would he be used right? Good units only get better and bad units only seem worse by comparison. When not counting possible endgame contributions to a unit because they are 'bad' and only counting when they are sniping at enemies because they are too bad long term, even if it is counted to a lesser extent than when the good period comes before the bad period. This suggests to be me that some units would need to rise/drop because this opportunity cost application to efficiency implies that once a unit is outclassed in some form of utility than it is only a positive until then...IE Barth since he gets dropped after his defense starts being terrible and Douglas joins...

This is by no means a rule set in stone, but it occurs often enough that it serves as a general rule of thumb. The only exceptions I can think of of units who go from bad to really good in a relatively short amount of time are Wolf and Sedgar, and their current tier positions reflect that.

So Wolt needs to rise...over Treck...since I can just use him to take 1 potshot per chapter and never move after that and never be in danger and contribute negatively. I don't think the FE5 tier list uses this either.

If you're suggesting that the entire branch of economics is unsubstantiated bullshit, a lot of people would beg to differ.

I'm saying basic economic concepts being applied in this fashion is iffy. AP Economics is a different can of worms from applying economics (to specific firms or in this case games)...whatever this point was to be a joke...

Edited March 8, 2010 by User Account

[frat_tastic]

And if we're basing this off of performance anyway, it'd be hard to even buy Sofia>Wendy. Sofia joins 8 chapters after Wendy with 2 AS, 15 HP and 1 DEF, with 75 base hit in a chapter where everyone in the desert gets +5 AVO and against enemies with significantly higher AVO. Yeah, she's got 1-2 range all the time, which is fo sho helpful (if she didn't have it it would essentially be impossible to raise her I'd imagine), but based on performance alone I'd definitely say Wendy>Sofia. But then we take the guiding ring into account and Sofia definitely beats Wendy, but not enough to jump up a tier, when you can buy them like 2 chapters later.

[Dat Nick]

What have you done to convince anyone you're right? All you've done is say how awful Wendy is. DUH. Wendy blows. So does Sophia, everyone already knows that, and Sophia's position has already taken the Guiding Ring into account. How is she a tier better when she's significantly worse than everyone above her, and only marginally better than Wendy?

Good sir- no, you deserve the title of idiot, it would behoove you to actually read my arguments before you automatically dismiss them as bullshit.

And no, it isn't taken into account already, because Guiding Ring>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wendy. Furthermore, dealing actual damage and not having shit for hit on top of healing is not "marginally" better. Here, since I need to tie your shoes and wipe the snot from your nose, apparently, I'm going to re-post my post again.

It doesn't matter, because Wendy's stats and joining situation are worse. I.e, joining near the Western Isles. With a shitload of axes flying around that ORKO her to bits.

Furthermore, with her awesome 4 strength and 9 base hit, she can't even do DAMAGE, so it's hard as shit to set up kills for her and even harder to make her connect. ESPECIALLY if it's an axeman!

Quote

and also will have a level lead and if we can somehow get Wendy to promotion she'll be less terrible

To promotion? When it already takes an astronomical amount of time, effort, and luck to get her to 10 unpromoted? Yeah. Good luck with that. For context, I asked Colonel M to give me a serious answer as to when Wendy would hit 10/0, and he said C24. I think that's a slight exaggeration...but note the emphasis on SLIGHT. My guesstimate is like, C18. TO GET TO 10/0.

Quote

Sophia might make more accurate potshots (though still very inaccurate),

Wendy has 10 mt and 64 hit with Javelin that targets defense and may get even worse with WTD (like it matters if it gets better with WTA since she'll do such godawful damage anyway). That's terrible.

Sophia has 14 mt and 75 hit with Flux, isn't affected by WTD, targets res, and that hit will improve too since it's so much easier to get Sophia kills on account of the fact that her chips can actually do damage (and that her mov doesn't suck). It's night and day, if just for the massive damage disparity.

Quote

but Wendy has a large durability lead (+4 HP/ 7 Def at base) so she can avoid getting ORKOd by some things.

She can't avoid getting ORKOd by shit, seeing as how everything and their mother doubles her. So Wendy's only "strong point" doesn't even work in her favor.

Look. I'll condense the argument and say this. Chad gets credit for chests opened pre-Astol. Matthew gets credit for the Silver Card. Can anyone think of a reason why Sophia shouldn't get credit for the Guiding Ring under this line of logic? Just the Guiding Ring alone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wendy, really, because the Guiding Ring is a very sought-after promotion item.

And yet you say the only information this offers is "Wendy sucks". Breaking news, Einstein. Even if that was true (which it's not, I very clearly made a comparison to Wendy and Sophia 2-range wise), outlining the opposition's negatives is just as important as supporting your unit's positives. Furthermore, since the only information in your post is "no u, lol", YOU do not have any right to be calling out anybody on lack of supporting details.

Furthermore, why does Sophia being a tier up on Wendy automatically mean she needs to be in bottom? She can have her own tier between them. You should have thought of that before spouting bullshit, but I guess thinking is beyond you.

Have a nice day.

Sofia joins 8 chapters after Wendy with 2 AS, 15 HP and 1 DEF, with 75 base hit in a chapter where everyone in the desert gets +5 AVO and against enemies with significantly higher AVO.

Shit like this is why I called you an idiot on account of not reading my post. This portion, to be precise:

Wendy has 10 mt and 64 hit with Javelin that targets defense and may get even worse with WTD (like it matters if it gets better with WTA since she'll do such godawful damage anyway). That's terrible.

Sophia has 14 mt and 75 hit with Flux, isn't affected by WTD, targets res, and that hit will improve too since it's so much easier to get Sophia kills on account of the fact that her chips can actually do damage (and that her mov doesn't suck). It's night and day, if just for the massive damage disparity.

I.e, you're totally ignoring the fact that Wendy's hit is even worse and that she can't do damage even if she connects. Never mind that Sophia has EXISTING MOVE in the desert, and better move outside of that.

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[Inui]

Sophia was already over Wendy due to her getting the Guiding Ring.

Why is such an event considered? That is like counting joining inventory. All she does is walk with your troops (and need shielding the whole time) and passes through a spot to pick up an item. If such things are to be counted, we may as well count unit recruitment and starting inventories. However, none of this shit reflects upon their performances as units.

Do you realize what you're saying before you say it? Now her attack is 8. I.e, it's completely useless. How are you going to set up a kill for 8 attack? Oh, and she can still miss, too, and if that ever happens she's toast.

Yeah. Too bad it doesn't change anything since it weighs her AS down to nothing and causes her to get doubled; and 15 avoid isn't reliably dodging axes.

And she also doesn't have the rank. You don't get 50 attacks in 3 chapters no matter who you are. ESPECIALLY not if you're Wendy.

Okay, she has 8 Atk. She can at least hit SOMETIMES.

Please explain how Sophia ever gains EXP. I can actually raise Wendy if I wanted to. Not even save-state abuse made raising Sophia something I actually continued trying...

[Dat Nick]

Why is such an event considered? That is like counting joining inventory.

Matthew gets credit for the Silver Card, correct? You can't say one's okay and not the other, seeing as how it's basically the same thing.

Please explain how Sophia ever gains EXP.

She attacks. At 2 range. For much better hit rates and damage than Wendy and no risk of a counter-attack, and due to much better damage, it's ten times easier to set up kills for her because I don't need to reduce something to a bleeding pulp in order for Wendy to have a chance at killing it (and getting killed if she misses, at least Sophia just whiffs and gains 1 EXP) Do I have to spell out everything for you?

Oh, and it takes ten times the savestate abusing to make Wendy usable, seeing as how she's essentially facing crit rates for all of her existence. Completely overlooking how hard it is to set up kills for her due to her lolzy attack if she hopes to have any sort of reliable hit chance.

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[Florete]

Why is such an event considered? That is like counting joining inventory. All she does is walk with your troops (and need shielding the whole time) and passes through a spot to pick up an item. If such things are to be counted, we may as well count unit recruitment and starting inventories. However, none of this shit reflects upon their performances as units.

That is not the same. I don't have to do anything with a unit to get what is in their inventory. I have to move Sophia to get the Guiding Ring. As sPortsman pointed out, it's a lot like Thief work.

[frat_tastic]

Being a dick doesn't make you look cool btw.

Maybe I am retarded, because for some reason I can't comprehend how you are harping on Wendy's abysmal performance and then totally hand-waive Sofia's even worse performance like it's nothing. Why are you even claiming that Wendy can't survive any attacks (which isn't even true, not everything ORKO's her like you claim) when Sofia joins under even worse conditions, and has equally bad (actually worse) hit than Wendy does?

You can keep throwing those numbers in my face, it doesn't matter because they don't mean anything when you actually consider the enemies that your characters will be facing. Wendy's enemies still have pretty lol AVO. Sofia's do not, thus her hit is low. If Wendy's durability is shit, Sofia's is fucking herpes, since she ACTUALLY is ORKO'd by everything (maybe not mages). She's never using her full move in the desert anyway since she'll die if she's not ALWAYS protected.

Yeah, guiding ring>Wendy, which is why Sofia is ahead of her. Sofia's game-worst performance though shouldn't put her in a tier above Wendy just because she nets you a guiding ring, especially when they are available for purchase in 2 chapters anyway.

Stop using numbers that don't mean anything to try and say Sofia is better in terms of combat and shit, because it's a fucking lie and you know it. Sofia doesn't "not have shit for hit" when she only has 75 hit (down to 70 because everything gets +5 AVO) and enemies have like 30+ AVO in her joining chapter.

The guiding ring Sophia nets you isn't worth a tier in between Bottom tier and Graveyard tier.

[dondon151]

She's never using her full move in the desert anyway since she'll die if she's not ALWAYS protected.

Chapter 14 (1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLsRAwnVdk

Chapter 14 (2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTDKmkWMwLU

Wrong.

[Inui]

Matthew gets credit for the Silver Card, correct?

Too much, imo.

She attacks. At 2 range. For much better hit rates and damage than Wendy and no risk of a counter-attack, and due to much better damage, it's ten times easier to set up kills for her because I don't need to reduce something to a bleeding pulp in order for Wendy to have a chance at killing it (and getting killed if she misses, at least Sophia just whiffs and gains 1 EXP) Do I have to spell out everything for you?

Wendy joins with 79 Hit with Iron and 64 with a Javelin, with 11 and 10 Atk respectively. Even with the Javelin, she's got more than 50 Hit against loldiers, which are plentiful. She has about 60-65 on Steel Bow Archers with Iron. Loldiers only have 2 Def and Archers have a bit more but also less HP. None of those enemies double her at all.

In the next chapter, there are Mercs. Even if the Mercs are rockin' 30 Evd, she has 46 Hit with a Javelin. Just tossing Javelins here and there and poking things with Slim/Iron like loldiers and Archers lets her gain EXP and weapon levels. She can eventually use an Axereaver.

When Sophia joins, she has 75 Hit with her most accurate weapon against enemies with double the avoid of the ones Wendy was facing. Even if she attacks a 40 Evd Merc from afar, she's got very shitty Hit on it. 35? Yeah, GL w/ that Sophia. She can walk up to an Archer up close and have like 45-50 Hit, while Wendy could do the same earlier with 60-65 Hit.

Oh, and it takes ten times the savestate abusing to make Wendy usable, seeing as how she's essentially facing crit rates for all of her existence. Completely overlooking how hard it is to set up kills for her due to her lolzy attack if she hopes to have any sort of reliable hit chance.

It does? I can raise Wendy. I can't raise Sophia.

Wendy has really good Lck. She's facing Crit rates? What?

That is not the same. I don't have to do anything with a unit to get what is in their inventory. I have to move Sophia to get the Guiding Ring. As sPortsman pointed out, it's a lot like Thief work.

Uh... Not really. She just steps on a spot and goes "hey what's this" and doesn't perform any commands or anything. It's unique to her...like starting inventory. She can never attack or contribute anything ever and still get this item just by walking around. It has nothing to do with her performance as a unit.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Inui

[dondon151]

Uh... Not really. She just steps on a spot and goes "hey what's this" and doesn't perform any commands or anything. It's unique to her...like starting inventory. She can never attack or contribute anything ever and still get this item just by walking around. It has nothing to do with her performance as a unit.

B-b-b-but how come when I put Chad in that area, he doesn't find anything even when I used all 3 of them they didn't find it!!! Help!!!

[Dat Nick]

Maybe I am retarded, because for some reason I can't comprehend how you are harping on Wendy's abysmal performance and then totally hand-waive Sofia's even worse performance like it's nothing.

What your limited mental capacity fails to compute is that this is NOT the case, as I've explained over and over why Sophia is better.

Why are you even claiming that Wendy can't survive any attacks

Because it's TRUE? She gets doubled and ORKOd by nearly everything in her join chapter. Archers ORKO her for fucks sake. And it only goes downhill on the Isles.

when Sofia joins under even worse conditions, and has equally bad (actually worse) hit than Wendy does?

It's official, you're a dumbass. I shouldn't have to explain to you why 75 is a larger number than 64, but apparently you need it spelled out.

You can keep throwing those numbers in my face, it doesn't matter because they don't mean anything when you actually consider the enemies that your characters will be facing.

They're factored in. How is it changing the fact that 75 is a higher number than 64, again?

Sofia's do not, thus her hit is low.

I don't expect you to grasp this concept since you've pretty much proved you're an idiot at this point, but when Sophia and Wendy both exist, Wendy has to fight the same enemies Sophia does, rendering your comparison totally invalid, even if I were to pretend that Wendy didn't do a pitiful amount of damage against everything on the map.

If Wendy's durability is shit, Sofia's is fucking herpes, since she ACTUALLY is ORKO'd by everything (maybe not mages).

Maybe you're not completely useless after all. Now Sophia has BETTER durability than Wendy, meanign you just supported my argument further.

She's never using her full move in the desert anyway since she'll die if she's not ALWAYS protected.

Who on earth cares? The exact same thing applies to Wendy, and Sophia doesn't even NEED to use her full move. She just needs two spaces to completely destroy Wendy in mobility in this chapter. It's actually EASIER to protect Sophia since she can move with your meatwalls and away from enemies easier. Sophia already has durability won in this sense, even if the statement that everything literally ORKOs Wendy is false (it's not)

Stop using numbers that don't mean anything to try and say Sofia is better in terms of combat and shit, because it's a fucking lie and you know it.

Sorry, but these numbers DO mean something, so stop pretending they don't, because it's a fucking lie and you know it.

Sofia doesn't "not have shit for hit" when she only has 75 hit

Hey, bird-brain. Wendy has 64 hit. Her hit is even worse. And the main point was damage, anyway.

and enemies have like 30+ AVO in her joining chapter.

This hurts Wendy just as badly as it does Sophia, so stop being obtuse and admit to the gaping hole in your logic that forces me to call you an idiot.

The guiding ring Sophia nets you isn't worth a tier in between Bottom tier and Graveyard tier.

It wouldn't, if Sophia wasn't actually notably better.

I don't even know why I bothered to respond to this post since you'll just keep trying to argue that 2+2=5, anyway, but what the hell? You amuse me. You're so blatantly wrong and yet you pretend you're right.

Edited March 8, 2010 by s Portsman

[Inui]

B-b-b-but how come when I put Chad in that area, he doesn't find anything even when I used all 3 of them they didn't find it!!! Help!!!

To me, it's like starting inventory and/or a storyline event.

What your limited mental capacity fails to compute is that this is NOT the case, as I've explained over and over why Sophia is better.

Because it's TRUE? She gets doubled and ORKOd by nearly everything in her join chapter. Archers ORKO her for fucks sake. And it only goes downhill on the Isles.

It's official, you're a dumbass. I shouldn't have to explain to you why 75 is a larger number than 64, but apparently you need it spelled out.

They're factored in. How is it changing the fact that 75 is a higher number than 64, again?

I don't expect you to grasp this concept since you've pretty much proved you're an idiot at this point, but when Sophia and Wendy both exist, Wendy has to fight the same enemies Sophia does, rendering your comparison totally invalid, even if I were to pretend that Wendy didn't do a pitiful amount of damage against everything on the map.

Maybe you're not completely useless after all. Now Sophia has BETTER durability than Wendy, meanign you just supported my argument further.

Who on earth cares? The exact same thing applies to Wendy, and Sophia doesn't even NEED to use her full move. She just needs two spaces to completely destroy Wendy in mobility in this chapter. It's actually EASIER to protect Sophia since she can move with your meatwalls and away from enemies easier. Sophia already has durability won in this sense, even if the statement that everything literally ORKOs Wendy is false (it's not)

Sorry, but these numbers DO mean something, so stop pretending they don't, because it's a fucking lie and you know it.

Hey, bird-brain. Wendy has 64 hit. Her hit is even worse. And the main point was damage, anyway.

This hurts Wendy just as badly as it does Sophia, so stop being obtuse and admit to the gaping hole in your logic that forces me to call you an idiot.

It wouldn't, if Sophia wasn't actually notably better.

I don't even know why I bothered to respond to this post since you'll just keep trying to argue that 2+2=5, anyway, but what the hell? You amuse me. You're so blatantly wrong and yet you pretend you're right.

Dear God you are being a gigantic bleeding cunt. 64 > 75 when enemies have 10 avoid instead of 40, rofl. Go look at my post.