FE6 HM Tier List

[Reikken]

Steel axe is worth almost nothing. You can buy them, and they are cheap. Silvers are cool; however, it's only a few chapters until you can buy them too.

What stuff does Roy get you? I think his placement already reflects the stuff he gets, for him to be up near Lot and Klein and the like. He's pretty terrible as a unit. I think he should go down.

[Inui]

You forgot the Knight Crest.

Fuck this shit. It's more important that Garret moves up. Why the hell is he below Lolina?

[Colonel M]

8x

X

Whoops, sorry, misread that.

Well I saw one with 6 Spd, one with 7, one with 8, and one with 11. So I guess she can definitely dodge one of them (if she doesn't use a Javelin), though the others have to definitely assume she got levels. Still, point taken.

[Reikken]

You forgot the Knight Crest.

What Knight Crest?

Oh for Lalum. Yeah, Lalum is way too low anyway. should be top tier

Edited March 9, 2010 by Reikken

[Inui]

Let's have a good laugh at Sacae route Lilina.

20/3 Lilina: B Gonzales/C Roy: 28 HP, 7 Def, 49 Evd, 14 Spd

The slowest Nomads have 18 Spd and most seem to have 19. Dang, sucks for her. Doubled by all of them. Even if she proc'd Spd an extra time, she's doubled by 2/3 of them since their Spd ranges from 18 to 20. Nomads have like...14 Str, slightly more in Skl, some Lck, and Short Bows, right? Let's roll with that. 14 Str, 16 Skl, 8 Lck, Short Bow.

78.55 True Hit, 12x2 damage... One Nomad reduces her to 4 HP. Holy fuck, that is nearly the worst possible durability on the team. How does she even do anything? If she moves out to attack something, she needs to be rescued or a large wall has to be formed to stop a swarm of 9-10 range enemies, which hurts efficiency and restricts the team. She could have the best offense ever and still suck due to not being able to exist without dying instantly. Even if my numbers are slightly off, she's facing really high Hit and dies in nearly two hits regardless.

Silver Lance Wyvern Lords kill her in one hit.

Let us now laugh at her in Ilia, where one may think she's better due to not being doubled.

Random Steel Sword Merc: 72.99 True Hit, 17 damage to 28 HP. LOL!

Random Steel Lance Peg: 40.95 True Hit, 17 damage to 28 HP.

Silver Lance Falco: 65.14 True Hit, 24 damage to 28 HP.

To be more precise, four rounds of combat against Javelin/Steel Lance Pegs gives her a 7.05% chance of death IF SHE'S IN A FOREST.

Want to know what Lolina's chance of death is against that Steel Sword Mercenary if she's in a forest? After only two rounds of combat, the bitch gives you a 15% chance of having to restart the fucking chapter. That is really significant and you can't ignore it. She constantly gives you very real chances of having to restart the chapter. The Steel Blade ones can kill her in two hits as well, and they have a 5.5% chance of making you restart if only two attack her.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Inui

[Reikken]

k that's cool, but...

Everyone else in low tier is garbage too.

[Inui]

Garret obviously does way better than that. Him having 60 HP or close to it alone should tell us that.

[Rewjeo]

I assume that that 7.05% chance of getting killed by a peg was supposed to be 70.5%. Because really, 7.05% is pretty good. And I doubt Lilina can pull of durability anywhere near "good."

[Florete]

Garret obviously does way better than that. Him having 60 HP or close to it alone should tell us that.

Not that I disagree, but why don't you actually explain why Garrett is better instead of just telling all of us that Lilina sucks?

[Reikken]

Defense alone is not the whole story, sir.

I assume that that 7.05% chance of getting killed by a peg was supposed to be 70.5%. Because really, 7.05% is pretty good. And I doubt Lilina can pull of durability anywhere near "good."

Good? 7% (while camping out in a forest) is quite bad when it's a chance of your unit dying.

Edit: Also note that I'll rarely ever be arguing either for or against chars moving by just 1 spot.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Reikken

[Inui]

I assume that that 7.05% chance of getting killed by a peg was supposed to be 70.5%. Because really, 7.05% is pretty good. And I doubt Lilina can pull of durability anywhere near "good."

Considering everyone else has a 0% chance, including Garret, that is not good. Creating a 7% chance to restart the chapter? Horrible.

Not that I disagree, but why don't you actually explain why Garrett is better instead of just telling all of us that Lilina sucks?

It's pretty simple.

Garret's a 20/1 Berserker with very high HP/Str when he joins. Lilina consumed resources and added fail to even get to promotion. Garret has double her HP and like 3 more Def in Sacae, so the win there is pretty obvious. Both suck massive dick there, but Garret can at least fight two or three enemies with no problems and rape Wyverns while Lilina can potentially die in one round.

The Ilia win is pretty obvious. Garret destroys almost everything in Ilia. Berserker vs Cavs/Pegs, rofl. He has very good durability due to HP and WTA.

[Dat Nick]

I say screw it and make the change. But of course, everybody kind of has a grudge against Lolli due to fanboys, right?

[Inui]

I have a grudge against units that can't survive ever.

Garret being above Lolina is still not enough. He should skyrocket on the Ilia list, lol.

Oh well. I have to study atm, so meh.

[Reikken]

Sophia > bottom tier. Guiding Ring > anything they do. Dorothy, Wolt, Sue all get to do like 5 damage hits in their joining chapters and are not useful for anything beyond that. Juno is the same except replace joining chapter with ch 21. Karel I've never actually recruited, but I'm assuming the same goes for him.

[-Cynthia-]

Sophia > bottom tier. Guiding Ring > anything they do. Dorothy, Wolt, Sue all get to do like 5 damage hits in their joining chapters and are not useful for anything beyond that. Juno is the same except replace joining chapter with ch 21. Karel I've never actually recruited, but I'm assuming the same goes for him.

I'm going to havw to agree with this. If we're giving her credit for the Guiding Ring, the stat boosts/staff or attack power+ money we save for whatever unit we use it on is better than some crappy chip damage.

[grandjackal]

Not entirely true with the archers. Dorothy is able to double loldiers in her joining chapter with iron, can do so with steel if they have javelins. 9x2 to the former, 13x2 to the latter, leaving them in about 13-5 HP. She can do a solid 20 damage to the wyverns in chapter 7 with steel. Chapter 8, more loldiers. If you are willing to agree to the idea of 4 levels in 3 chapters (at her start, it's 12 EXP a shot and 38 exp a kill on those loldiers in her opening chapter, 2 hits and 2 kills is already a level), then 8x she can double steel axers, doing 10 damage to mercs with steel and can even use said bow to cut myrms in half. It's a similar story through the isles.

12-13 promotion, she's basically Klein with 1 more speed, 1 more con, and an already built support (Saul) to close the Str difference. The extra speed and con allows her to double with steel where Klein could only do so with the more expensive weapon the Silver, of which he can't even ORKO with (so Dorothy would still hit hard while saving on a valuable weapon). From there, Dorothy's superior growths take on from there. 12/6 or 13/5 Dorothy is capable of avoiding doubles in Sacae, not that she couldn't with the Brave Bow equipped.

Ok ok, that is just a bit of my strange thinking, but that start? It's not fantastic, but Dorothy's at least able to do her job, which is do good enough chipping to help your direct fighters avoid counters. Automatically, that's more than graveyard.

More than a guiding ring? Probably not, but I still wouldn't toss the archers into graveyard.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Reikken]

Note her hit rates. That solid 20 damage on wyverns comes at like 55 displayed hit or something fail like that, and then she has 4-5 AS with steel and like 24 hp+def, so unless you don't care about her dying (in which case her contributions are clearly <<<< Guiding Ring), just putting her in range to attack those dragon riders is extremely dangerous.

I'm not saying to move them down; Sophia should go up.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Note her hit rates. That solid 20 damage on wyverns comes at like 55 displayed hit or something fail like that, and then she has 4-5 AS with steel and like 24 hp+def, so unless you don't care about her dying (in which case her contributions are clearly <<<< Guiding Ring), just putting her in range to attack those dragon riders is extremely dangerous.

This much is true, but then again, who else is doing this sort of solid damage against them? It's a risk, but it takes off a lot of required effort to take it down if it hits. It's similar to Lot blicking cavs with the poleaxe, though not quite as deadly to the target.

I'm not saying to move them down; Sophia should go up.

That's fair enough, it's just strange to rank someone based on the one item they got (which is why I'm not fond of Matthew from FE7).

Ehhh, perhaps I was just trying to get Dorothy to rise herself. If we're talking Sacae route, could see her above Hue for at least being a very slight positive early on and becoming Klein at promotion with better growths/tradeable stats. Walt? Unsure. Sue? Unsure.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Reikken]

12-13 promotion, she's basically Klein with 1 more speed, 1 more con, and an already built support (Saul) to close the Str difference.

12-13/1 Dorothy:

29.08 hp, 12.75 str, 13.28 skl, 13.28 spd, 6.33 luck, 7.43 def, 6.43 res

1 Klein:

32.85 hp, 15.7 str, 15.7 skl, 12.8 spd, 12.7 luck, 9.35 def, 7.35 res

that's half a spd. And 1 atk from C/B Saul isn't closing the 3-str difference. It's barely even covering the difference in hit/defenses. And then Klein has his own supports soon to come. And perhaps most importantly, Dorothy doesn't have Klein's A in bows.

That's fair enough, it's just strange to rank someone based on the one item they got (which is why I'm not fond of Matthew from FE7).

Matthew (on ranked, at least) isn't at all ranked based on one item. He's ranked based on ~70k funds + other various good items (like ch 18's guiding ring for just one example) + good combat up though ch 20 or so? + huge help to tactics in ch 11. And then there's that "one item" too.

This much is true, but then again, who else is doing this sort of solid damage against them? It's a risk, but it takes off a lot of required effort to take it down if it hits. It's similar to Lot blicking cavs with the poleaxe, though not quite as deadly to the target.

Marcus and Zealot. Also Lot. Sue can use bows too, and better, as she has more hit. and is better able to make up for possibly having to be rescued away after missing due to being able to return the favor

Though they may all be too low, Sue especially. Lack of Orion's Bolt competition is nice.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Reikken

[GreatEclipse]

I agree with Inui that is inconsistent to give credit to Sophia for the Guiding Ring and no credit to unit recruitment, as both are action commands only they can take. Even if you ignore recruitment for the reasons given (I disagree with the premise that contributions cannot count twice, but I desire the conclusion, so I will not argue it) Roy seizing and Sophia finding something are also identical. Both must walk up to a certain space on the map, and take a particular action to receive a certain benefit. The difference is that the Guiding Ring is not sending Sophia a full tier above everyone else, so we can give her credit and still have something to argue. Arbitrary and inconsistent standards are fine when they promote discussion, since tier lists are worthless beyond the nerdy fun they provide anyway.

Sophia is better even without it because staffs after promotion > anything Wendy ever provides at any point in the game. And since using either is never practical to begin with:

Sophia + Angelic Robes + Nosferatu + Igrene and Fa supports >>> triangle attack.

[grandjackal]

12-13/1 Dorothy:

29.08 hp, 12.75 str, 13.28 skl, 13.28 spd, 6.33 luck, 7.43 def, 6.43 res

1 Klein:

32.85 hp, 15.7 str, 15.7 skl, 12.8 spd, 12.7 luck, 9.35 def, 7.35 res

that's half a spd. And 1 atk from C/B Saul isn't closing the 3-str difference. It's barely even covering the difference in hit/defenses. And then Klein has his own supports soon to come. And perhaps most importantly, Dorothy doesn't have Klein's A in bows.

I never said it was closing, rather it was just making up for it, as it is still close.

While he might be tougher, she is faster and has more Con, which allows her to double with steel where he would need silver. This makes it so even without A bows for Silver, she's not dependent on it by any means. It would only make a difference in their offense against wyvern lords.

Klein's supports are Clarine and Tate if we choose to use her. They make him tougher, but what good does that do an archer? You could say it makes good in Sacae, btu there's problems with that. First off, a pegasus knight in Sacae is not a great mix. Secondly, who gets to 15 AS first? 15 AS allows a unit to not be doubled by Sacae nomads, so even if he was tougher by numbers, their doubling still interferes with it. In the very least, Dorothy's support with Saul works to lower the crit rates they have on him, along with possibly even a 3HKO due to his ice's durability boost. I can't exactly say anything on Clarine though.

Matthew (on ranked, at least) isn't at all ranked based on one item. He's ranked based on ~70k funds + other various good items (like ch 18's guiding ring for just one example) + good combat up though ch 20 or so? + huge help to tactics in ch 11. And then there's that "one item" too.

I know he gets credit for his thief things, but it's just...weird to tier someone just on items alone. I'm not used to it is all, I'm not against it by any means.

Marcus and Zealot. Also Lot. Sue can use bows too, and better, as she has more hit. and is better able to make up for possibly having to be rescued away after missing due to being able to return the favor

Marcus with silver does about 15 damage, Zealot 16. Lot needs to proc a crit with the killer axe. The difference of Sue and Dorothy is 3 hit, and a skill proc with the level in chapter 6 she could have gotten reduces it to 1. Mount I can't argue with as it's Sue's clear advantage, but it's not like I was going to say Dorothy was better than Sue. I just don't know how much better Sue exactly is.

Though they may all be too low, Sue especially. Lack of Orion's Bolt competition is nice.

Not sure about Walt. He's got 4 base speed, and loldiers in chapter 2 have 2 AS with iron, meaning he just does 9 damage to their 0 defense, which is 1/3 of their HP. He's forced, but by the time you meet Dorothy, they'd be about equal statistically, difference being Walt is probably higher level thus leveling slower, ice affinity to her fire, no one except Marcus wants to support Walt while Dorothy's at least got Saul, she at least has SOME advantage over Klein when promoted early (speed), where as Walt only has 1 Con on him...

Sue? Well, looking into it she doubles with iron more often as they level, but the things both double, Dorothy would be doing more damage. There are things Sue can double with iron that Dorothy can't, but with the might advantage Dorothy could probably do the same damage with steel. If Sue were to use steel, she's weighed down by 3, which cuts drastically into her doubling prowess.

Later on though, there's some things Sue can do that few others could, like snipe lategame Heroes while doubling. I wouldn't really bring up swords, as her Str is weak and walking around with iron is not really worth it, though it does give her the option of countering. Later on, Sue is clearly better, while early on, Dorothy's outdoing her in combat though Sue still out-utilizes her due to mount.

Basically if Dorothy climbs, Sue's at least a tier above her. Could see her above Igrene on Sacae route. Not so sure about Ilia though.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Rewjeo]

There's almost no difference in leveling speed unless it's a huge gap. Every three levels gets you one less experience per hit, although I think that killing is more complicated and more dependent on the enemy's level.

[grandjackal]

12/4 Dorothy-32.05 HP, 14.5+1 Str, 14.85 Skill, 14.85 Speed, 7.55 Luck, 7.95+1 Def, 6.95+1 Res. A Saul, 31+15 Hit, 7+7 crit, 35-37+15 avoid, 7+7 crit evade. 8 Con

Igrene-32 HP, 16 Str, 18 Skill, 15 Speed, 9 Luck, 11 Def, 10 Res

40 hit, 9 crit, 39 avoid, 9 crit evade. 7 Con

Dorothy took resources, but then again Dorothy isn't totally incompetent during her growth. Igrene's a bit tougher, but that's about it.

Before the nomads show up in chapter 18 (4 chapters), could give them 2 or 3 levels.

12/6 Dorothy-33.75 HP, 15.5+1 Str, 15.75 Skill, 15.75 Speed, 8.25 Luck, 8.25+1 Def, 7.25+1 Res. A Saul, 34+15 Hit, 7-8+7 crit, 38-40+15 avoid, 8+7 crit evade

3 Igrene- 33.4 HP, 16.7 Str, 18.5 Skill, 15.7 Speed, 9.4 Luck, 11.2 Def, 10.1 Res

40 hit, 9 crit, 39-41 avoid, 9 crit evade.

Average Nomad

HP: 35

Attack: 18

Hit: 116

Crit: 18

Attack Speed: 19

Avoid: 46

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 7

Resistance: 5

Safe to say both avoid being doubled. Dorothy's 4RKOd to Igrene's 5, but notice how they have 9 crit packed on Igrene as opposed to Dorothy's 3. Dorothy's hit with the brave bow (both would ORKO) is 78 displayed as opposed to Igrene's 69.

Saul's probably 20/4 by now. He's got 4.7 Luck. Dorothy's support raises it up to 11.7. Get that, Saul's less prone to crits than Igrene is. 33.8 HP, 6.7 Def. Either procs the next with that +1 Def due to support, Saul gets 4RKOd, which allows him the ability to survive a crit, which can only help his survival. Saul would have 20-21 might with basic Light thanks to Dorothy, or perhaps 23-24 with the recently aquired Divine. That's quite a monsterous bite. He'd have 36 base hit, so 111 with Light, 101 with Divine. Dorothy amps it up to 126-116, which is a displayed hit of 80-70.

Wyverns have 12 Speed, 11 AS with javelins. Both could easily double steel wyverns, but javelins? Iron's not enough. Dorothy however can afford to equip Steel (16 AS-1 from Con) to ORKO them (22x2 as they have 14 Def, 41 HP scores one for Dorothy) where Igrene would need silver as Steel would weigh her down by 2.

Nomad troopers, the only difference between them is that Dorothy has crit outside of killers, and that she helps Saul perform better.

Yes it's so marginally better, but what of early on? I already shown how she is of use in chapter 6, 7, and 8 (avoiding counters on loldiers, painchipping wyverns), through it she can double some of the slower enemies on the isles (at least it's still helping avoid counters), and early promotion puts her at about Klein's level (2-4 more damage versus 1 more speed and con+Saul's contributions). If I could make a claim that Dorothy should be a bit closer to Igrene, be it above or below her? I not, at least above the likes of perhaps Lillina (whos upcoming power doesn't make up for Dorothy eventually becoming a 2nd Klein at the cost of a rarely fought over promotion item) or Barth (who, while can be pretty good on the isles with the crest, royally sucks without it, whereas Dorothy already starts at least marginally useful). She's not of minimal utility like Low Tier, nor is she as expensive as Hue.

[Colonel M]

I don't know about the other stuff, but I definitely can't disagree with dancers. They really should be top. I'll keep them under Miledy and Percival until otherwise argued against.

[grandjackal]

I'm not really sure how to feel about dancers, to be honest.

Is it just me though, or do archers just kill all discussion?