FE6 HM Tier List

[Narga_Rocks]

So, are we looking at whole game deployment or just their forced deployment? I'd be tempted to call Sofiya utility at this point. Even if we don't give her credit for the guiding ring (and based on some other decisions maybe we shouldn't) she is still a 5 move unit you get for free in a chapter where many of your best characters go 1 or 2 spaces. She can use torch items better than anyone but your thieves or fliers. And units like Miledy should be killing stuff, and if you actually raised Thany then while she can't ORKO she's at least more useful attacking/ferrying than she is torching. If you raised Lugh same thing. Better off killing stuff. If you didn't there isn't much point in deploying him when you could deploy a flier like Tate and carry around a unit like Dieck or someone and drop him off with Durandal in front of a mamkute. Unless you plan on deploying all 3 thieves Sofiya is still pretty helpful just for giving better vision. And possibly even if you are using all 3 thieves.

[CATS]

It's CATS. I'm starting to think his whole existence is a joke. I've lost track of how many ridiculous arguments he's spouted out at this point.

Let's see, how about an official list.......

Nino > Pent (though I wasn't the original spouter of this particular ridiculous argument)

Wendy > Sophia

Cain > Hardin

Chainey > Navarre

Help me out here, I'm sure there are other, older ridiculous arguments. These are just the more recent ones I can remember. Oh yeah, Marcus --> High Tier, can't forget that one.

Edited April 2, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

You admit Wendy>Sophia is ridiculous? Good, then I trust we can all get back to our scheduled program?

[CATS]

Oh, sure. I won't keep trying to defend that one. I am still interested in getting an official list of my ridiculous arguments though, I might tier them one day if I'm bored, with the more ridiculous arguments going closer to the top. I recall arguing Knoll > L'Arachel and getting some shit for that one.

[Narga_Rocks]

You admit Wendy>Sophia is ridiculous? Good, then I trust we can all get back to our scheduled program?

I don't know what he thinks of the riculousness (probably not a word but it fits) of the Triangle Attack portion of his argument, but I doubt he is admitting any of that is ridiculous.

Cain > Hardin

Chainey > Navarre

and Marcus to high tier are not ridiculous at all. A bunch of us disagreed, but I suspect he is just mentioning all his posts that were quickly rejected rather than admitting that any of them are actually ridiculous.

Nino > Pent it sounds like he knows was ridiculous, hopefully.

(It is annoying how little 11 spd is already doubling as of chapter 5 in fe6, though, but it isn't like anyone but Thany and Rutger are likely to have >11 AS at this point anyway.)

[grandjackal]

Wendy's auto-crit will definitely result in OHKOs after she grows a bit. Since she's auto-critting, her damage growth is 120%, +1.2 points of damage with every level she gains, and you can toss in an uberfast full Atk support with Bors to help her out. +9 damage at A Rank.

So you guys want to use them inefficiently enough that Sophia wins, but not inefficiently enough that Wendy wins.

Where do I begin?

1. You're asking me to field 3 dudes with 4 move.

2. With bad aim.

3. Who might not even be able to all get in formation to do that because of said 4 move. It's not like pegasi who are the most mobile units around, it's not even garunteed they can get all in formation.

Also, brilliant thinking of the 120% damage growth a level, because she gains strength every level, right? How long did it take to whip that thought out of your ass?

I also don't give a damn about supports because just one of them is bad enough outside of an early sealed Barth (Barth barely can make the cut with that too). Unless you can prove that fielding all three of them does nto kill efficiency in some form or in actuality contributes to making things go faster, I don't think you're convincing anyone to field out more than 1 armor.

Finally, the idea of her OHKOing something with the triangle attack crit...

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch9.html

Chapter 9. Tell me how Wendy of all people gains 5 levels in essentially 1 2/3 maps with her shit accuracy, might, and move, because that's what she needs to do it with Steel.

You guys just hate Wendy imo.

I wouldn't if she didn't suck.

[Colonel M]

Yes, the Cain > Hardin wasn't a ridiculous assertion. My problem was part of the argument that it was backed on: being worth double of whatever arbitrary things that came about with it. I admit SDS was hasty on moving Hardin > Cain (and which I asked that it was moved back until more people reached the consensus on it), but either way I still stand by Hardin > Cain anyway. Hell, I'd almost stand by him > Abel if it wasn't for Abel getting Ridersbane about the time Hardin arrives (which I find possible if he's chucking a Javelin), but one could argue the lack of power to reclass effectively (E Swords still sucks no matter how you draw it), but either way the latter is part of my opinion more than anything.

You guys just hate Wendy imo.

I'd argue the game hates her more.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Colonel M

[GreatEclipse]

I normally agree with CATS, but if Wendy is forcing two crappy units into play in order to get anywhere, Sophia wins by default. Never mind how impractical the triangle attack is, or how long it takes before Wendy can stop relying on it. Even if she joined 10 levels higher, she would be extremely difficult to use.

Also, Marcus for top tier. If he saves you 20 turns in the first chapter alone, he makes a larger contribution to efficiency than someone like Gonzales ever will. The ability of any one unit to make a similar impact does not exist late in the game, when you have far more units and resources available.

Edited April 2, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dat Nick]

I think CATS gets the point that his argument is fucked, he even conceded to it, we can stop making fun of him for it now.

[CATS]

I don't know what he thinks of the riculousness (probably not a word but it fits) of the Triangle Attack portion of his argument, but I doubt he is admitting any of that is ridiculous.

Cain > Hardin

Chainey > Navarre

and Marcus to high tier are not ridiculous at all. A bunch of us disagreed, but I suspect he is just mentioning all his posts that were quickly rejected rather than admitting that any of them are actually ridiculous.

Nino > Pent it sounds like he knows was ridiculous, hopefully.

You're right that some of them I don't think are ridiculous, but ridiculous is a matter of perception. There's probably more people who think that stuff is wrong/ridiculous than people who think it's valid (with the people who think those arguments are valid being limited to pretty much just me, except for the Marcus argument).

I think CATS gets the point that his argument is fucked, he even conceded to it, we can stop making fun of him for it now.

Yep. That's what I'm here for; to contribute activity by putting forth ridiculous arguments so you guys can bash them.

Yes, the Cain > Hardin wasn't a ridiculous assertion. My problem was part of the argument that it was backed on: being worth double of whatever arbitrary things that came about with it.

Well, the point I was trying to make was that Cain being present and Hardin not being present is a bigger gap in contributions than both being present and one being slightly better. But I won't bother de-railing this topic arguing about it, I'm aware that the point is likely to be rejected anyways.

Also, Marcus for top tier. If he saves you 20 turns in the first chapter alone, he makes a larger contribution to efficiency than someone like Gonzales ever will. The ability of any one unit to make a similar impact does not exist late in the game, when you have far more units and resources available.

I agree with this (well, not top tier, but at least high tier), but considering how often this argument has been made in the past, and how much Marcus has moved as a result, I don't think it's likely to work now.

[Florete]

If Marcus can be dumped as soon as his deployment no longer helps, I see no reason he should be any lower than High. The only difference between him and other Jeigans who are Top tier in their respective games is the late game that never weighs as much anyway. I suppose he's not quite as good early on in comparison also, but that's why he isn't going to Top tier.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I agree with Marcus into High, mainly because I don't see him in the same tier as Zealot; they'll be similar enough by Zealot's join, and Marcus's worth during Chs1-the beginning of 7 is probably the biggest contribution any unit makes over the same span.

[GreatEclipse]

If Marcus can be dumped as soon as his deployment no longer helps, I see no reason he should be any lower than High. The only difference between him and other Jeigans who are Top tier in their respective games is the late game that never weighs as much anyway. I suppose he's not quite as good early on in comparison also, but that's why he isn't going to Top tier.

Statistically, yes, the gap between Marcus and Allen/Lance is smaller than the gab between Seth and Franz. In actual practice, the gap in performance is much larger. Not using Marcus hurts you much more than not using Seth. I push for Top because he is that much better than units in High. The team without Gonzales in chapter 21 has other units and resources available. The team without Marcus in chapter 1 is just screwed.

Edited April 3, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dark Sage]

True Marcus is completely essential for early game, but he slows down slightly by Chapter 4 because he can't double and Lott has the Halberd. He slows down completely by Chapter 7 just when your units start becoming good. Plus he eventually having a base strength of 9 and a base speed of 11 with a 25% growth in each is simply shity offense (and defense for that matter). His defense is even worse and while he can enter the Roy/Alan/Lance support triangle, he can get only a C with each of them at best and the rest of support list is really bad. By chapter 13 (let's say he's level 8. He gains exp kinda slowly), he's more of a liability then a help, losing to mages, paladins, mercenaries, snipers, and killing edge cavaliers. WTC isn't much help when your stats suck and when WTC isn't as useful as it is in the othe GBA games.

My linkhttp://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch13.html

Of course since we're dropping him when he becomes a liability, I guess my arguments (which I'll update if you want later, I'm too lazy right now) are moot. But while his early game is phenomenal, it loses out chapter 8 and after that, Zealot completely spanks him in everywhere else.

Marcus top of Mid High or bottom of High, but not any higher than that.

[CATS]

All of that is well-known. Everyone knows Marcus sucks on Ch 13. The point is he's making a huge impact during the time period that he doesn't suck. Try playing Ch 1 without him and see how fast you can finish without anyone dying. Even if Marcus was only available for Ch 1, then left and didn't re-join until Ch 7, I'd still say he's considerably better than Zealot.

Also, a L5 Marcus has the same Str as base Zealot and only 1 less Spd. L5 may be too high for Ch 7, but you get the point, and he'll at least be level 3 or 4. Zealot's stats aren't that much better at all. His only significant win is like, that 1 Spd and then 1-2 Hp and Def.

[Dat Nick]

The fact that he's vital earlygame is well known too, but it's just that, earlygame.

That was an anti-Marcus to Top argument too, not an anti-Marcus to high argument.

More reasons why Marcus shouldn't be Top tier:

-Allen/Lance pwn his face off for like 75% of the game

-Him and Dick are already pretty close statistically so he just has mov and the WT, and soon enough Dick's stats will overshadow the former

-Rutger same story, only his stats start out better than Marcus and he'll overshadow Marcus quicker

-Miredy's available later, but we've ditched Marcus long before so it doesn't hurt her as much, plus she's completely kick ass in the desert and once she promotes everything dies

-Percival is again available later, but we've lost Marcus long before and he's basically awesome from the word go to the end

The Top tier characters are generally very consistent, much more so than Marcus. They'll help you throughout the entire game (or in the case of Miredy/Percival, the time they exist), Marcus will only help you through the earlygame. I don't see any reason for him to be Top tier at all, but I'm fine with High.

[Colonel M]

Marcus in High Tier is very easy to buy. Furthermore, 5 Marcus by the end of C6 is far from impossible. While I slowed down in using Marcus, he's chilling at Level 7 in C11, and I wouldn't place much doubt in C12.

Marcus does save turns, granted, but he is nothing close to his other buddies nor his younger self. Since the argument is dropping him when he's looking shoddy (which, tbh, could be seen as soon as the Isles), then Marcus in High Tier is far from impossible. I can't touch the list for now, but I'd say bottom of High is sufficient for now. I can see the tier difference between Zealot and Marcus, and its not because of "just" C1 either.

[-Cynthia-]

High tier is pretty weird atm anyway, since it's theives at the bottom of the tier and essentially utility units (Marcus/Thany) at the top of Upper Mid.

I'm still not seeing how Shin is a tier below Gonzales and Echidna, especially on Sacae. He doubles and can counter with good Mt and accuracy, they can equip Hand Axes, not double and have like under 50% hit, or not be able to counter and still probably miss (especially in Gonzales' case) against Nomads/SMs.

The route split is a pretty significant portion of their playtime too, about 1/3. Shin has advantages over the two of them on other maps too: Mov, not taking counters, accuracy, more reliable doubling, ORKOing Wyvern Lords etc.

You seem to recognize Gonzales' issues in Sacae on the ranked list, and while missing is not as bad here, dealing 0 damage like 50% of the time does not help efficiency much.

Edited April 3, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I'd have to agree with the point made about Echidna and Gonzales there, though I feel Gonzales can get away with it a bit more as he has crit behind his attack.

[Colonel M]

Echinda's 1 range is accurate anyway (so long as we're not pulling Killer Axes), but it was done on FEG but sort of slipped my mind here. Either way Ill put Shin up as well.

[GreatEclipse]

I think Marcus is considerably better than Echidna and Gonzales if you allow him to retire before he adds any suck, but bottom of high is fine for now. A few questions:

1) What is the definition of a utility unit?

2) Is this list using the net system? If sub-optimal units are being forced to deploy, then punished for consuming a unit slot, some serious changes are needed to the bottom half of the list.

[Dark Sage]

Gonna bump the topic to keep it going.

[grandjackal]

Dude, it takes a month after the last post for a topic to be considered dead and locked. It hasn't even been 3 days since the last post.

Besides, isn't it against the rules here to bump topics?

[Rewjeo]

I recall arguing Knoll > L'Arachel and getting some shit for that one.

Uhh, a lot of people argued that and I'm pretty sure that that's what the list says right now.

A utility unit is a unit that is very useful for a period of time before rapidly declining in ability. Utility units never have to build up to be good, so that's why they're assumed to be dropped.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

[grandjackal]

That, and I recall Knoll>L'arachel going quite a bit smoothly.

Besides, this doesn't compare at all. Knoll at least actually HAD some unique form of utility that was never brought up or measured (Summoning). This is something between Wendy and Sophia to discuss who sucks less, and you chose Wendy. Choosing Wendy is like taking a cyanide pill, in hoping that it will kill you first before the opposition does. You can't win it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Cait Sith