FE6 HM Tier List

[Dark Sage]

But if you have the silver card you would be able to buy twice the amount of items than if you recruited Hugh and didn't have the Silver Card. Unless I'm missing something.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But if you have the silver card you would be able to buy twice the amount of items than if you recruited Hugh and didn't have the Silver Card. Unless I'm missing something.

Say you have 15-20k in funds when it's time to recruit Hugh.

If you don't have the Silver Card and recruit Hugh you can buy: 5-10k worth of items.

If you don't have the Silver Card and don't recruit Hugh you can buy: 15-20k worth of items.

If you have the Silver Card and recruit Hugh you can buy: 10-20k worth of items (5-10 x 2).

If you have the Silver Card and don't recruit Hugh you can buy: 30-40k worth of items (15-20k x 2).

As Red Fox already said, Hugh costs you 20k worth of items if you recruit him. It's true that you can still buy an alright amount of items after recruiting Hugh if you have the Silver Card but the fact is that recruiting him prevents you from getting more out of the Silver Card, say... a couple stat boosters and promotion items if you happen to be use many units who need the same item.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Dark Sage]

Good point. Still, since you still get a decent amount of items and are still able to recruit Hugh with the Silver Card, his cost shouldn't be too huge a deal, but perhaps having the Silver Card is assumed. I'd love to have a discussion about Hugh and Ray right now, but I'm concentrating on Lilina right now.

[grandjackal]

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch8.html

Let's see. Pleniful ranged weaponry, can't double, gets killed instantly, low-medium chipping output. She only does 8 damage at minimum, 9 damage with C Roy. Ok chipping, but not too stellar. Roy wants B Alan/B Lance, leaving little room for Lilina. Gonzales support is good though later on. Maybe it's not too much of a problem to gain levels, but her performance dosen't really improve a lot until chapter 11-12. 13 she has Aircalibur and C Roy/C Gonzales, but a lot of high movement enemies are runnig around. Combine with promoted enemies and ballisites and she's down for the count. Her durability is a constant issue. Not as much as it's made out to be, but it's a bad setback. I don't think she can promote until Chapter 16 at earliest though.

You also have Roy give her Thunder for 1 more might and 5 more crit, of which she would have 12, which would be about 8-10 crit on the enemy.

Chapter 13 sucks for all mages, Lou included.

Most people outside of early promotes tend to have to wait until chapter 16 to promote.

All I got out of your post was that Lillina is usable, which isn't quite sucking.

She can only 3-4RKO enemies at best. Yes I know her use is for chipping, but the question is not whether or not she can chip, it's whether or not her join situation is ideal for what she can do.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch.9.html

Let's assume Lilina is at 5/0, gainig 2 levels per chapter. We're also going to assume she'll use the Thunder tome and she has C Roy.

HP 17.8

Attack 14

Avoid 18.5

Defense 2.9

Hit 102.6

Crit 10.9

AS 5

Lilina's damage here is not bad at all. She has competent chipping, comparable to Lugh, she has nice Crit and her hit is servicable at worst. But it's here that her durability does matter. Why? Pirates. It's very hard to wall all of your units, let alone Lilina. If anybody even breathes on her she's dead. But otherwise, not that bad.

If she's level 5, she has a good chance at 18 HP, which let's her narrowly escape fate. I won't push that thought, but you seem willing to accept she's leveling quick. 3 kills here, she will have 18 HP.

Let's also not forget about Elfire. Lou can't kill with it, and still brings them down to eatable damage with normal fire if he does double, Lillina quickly does more damage with it on things he doesn't. He's not exactly begging for it.

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

Let's say she's at 7/0 now (again Thunder and C Roy support)

HP 18.7

Attack 15.5

Hit 103

Crit 11.6

AS 6

Avoid 19.7

Defense 3.3

Ok, here her durability isn't so much of an issue. She dosen't have two much trouble hitting things, but she only 3RKO things. Not exactly a step up from before. This time, Mercenaries have a decent shot at dodging. But there's also a ballisite and you don't dare put Lilina with your other units, so she can't chip as much. Ballisites HURT. A lot. And she has no defense against it either. Her avoid is atrocious as well.

Not even going to give her Thunder which is buyable?

Yes, there is a ballista. Only 1 ballista. A normal ballista. That has 18 might at strongest with these archers. Which she can easily survive. Considering she is not a frontline unit, I would consider her drawing attention away fromthat damn thing to be a blessing in disguise, as that's a frontliner not having to eat it.

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch11a.html

Lilina will now be at 10/0 (I know, I'm being generous here), she now has Elfire in her repetoire.

HP 20.1

Attack 17.8 (20.8 with Elfire)

Hit 104.35 (99.35 with Elfire)

Crit 13.15 (8.15 with Elfire)

AS 7

Avoid 27.7

Defense 3.9

Ok I'm not going to lie. Lilina is one of the best chippers here. But just when you think she can kill things on her own now, SHE CAN'T. She can't even double Steel axe fighters, let alone anything else. Her durability is even worse because almost everyone has everyone has ranged weapons now. Even when the hit rate is 44, she still has a shot of dying. Still, I am being a bit unfair about it. It's easy to protect her and by the end, she'll get Gonzales C (let's assume this anyway). Still, while she can chip, she can't kill without babying, which is bad.

Ahh, this must be chapter 11, because the link you have is fucked up.

I'm surprised, you didn't think she'd go along the north wall. This reduces the number of enemies she faces to 1, and she might as well distract either an archer, or one of the dark mages hanging around near the end. She wants to go this way, because this is the closest path to the throne. Since she has a support, she might as well go where Roy goes, and Roy wants to take the shortest path to the throne.

Come on man, think it through. She could also do similar at level 8 or 9, not requiring you to be generous.

Alright last chapter for now:

http://fedead-end.biz/fe6hmch12a.html

Lilina is now at 12/0 (she now has added Gonzales C added on).

HP 21

Attack 19.7 (22.7 with Elfire)

Hit 116.6 (111.6 with Elfire)

Crit 18.35 (13.35 with Elfire)

AS 7

Avoid 30.5

Defense 4.3

Not bad at all. Lilina's now a classic glass cannon. Well, more of a glass chipper. She's contributing in chipping very well and while she can't double, she can crit just fine. Durability isn't much of an issue despite the walls full of archers and shamans because there are ways around them, and now she can kill the Mamkute boss. Actually, this is Lilina at her best. But she still can't double. It's infuriating and nearly everything doubles her!

Keyword here being nearly. Fastest enemy here has 10 AS, she's safe with 7, everything else for the most part is slower.

Annoying she can't double indeed, but if she could we wouldn't be having this argument.

The more I compare this, the more I'm begining to agree with you. She's a nice chipper all the way through the Western Isles and if you drop her after Chapter 14, she can stay where she is. She can be a decent healer when promoted as well, assuming she can get that far. Let me know about any holes in my arguments. I'm still learning debating.

Done.

Lugh most likely has B Chad/C Ellen. I'm sure Ray can squeeze in pretty well with Lugh. You do have a point about Chad however. His skill is ok, though you are right, he does have issues involving weight. But at least he HAS a way of independent health restoring and tanking, unlike Lilina.

Now ask yourself really how much is a B with Lou going to help Ray.

Your next point is somewhat irrelevent, as Lou doesn't want to be caught in the heat of battle anyways.

But the thing is, she's not quite making it up in "raw damage". All she is Lugh, only much frailer. Lugh can avoid being doubled. Lilina cannot. All she's doing in "raw damage" is one more point than him in Chapter 9. That's it! Of course this is assuming Lugh would be 10/0. And yes, she does eat a counter because a lot of enemies have 2 ranged weapons on the Western Isles.

It's part of the reason she's a tier below him.

I didn't say he would be good, just it helps him out kinda. Though I don't know why I threw in Oujay.

Me either.

Silver Card halves the cost of Hugh. Not directly, but you could buy 2 promotion items instead of one if you wanted too with the Silver Card.

To address this point further down the line as others had responded, you would have to prove he performs better than two stat-boosters put on other people. Considering two of those stat-boosters could be Boots, good luck...

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You could always just steal the Member Card.

[Dark Sage]

You also have Roy give her Thunder for 1 more might and 5 more crit, of which she would have 12, which would be about 8-10 crit on the enemy.

Chapter 13 sucks for all mages, Lou included.

Most people outside of early promotes tend to have to wait until chapter 16 to promote.

All I got out of your post was that Lillina is usable, which isn't quite sucking.

What I mean is that Lilina is usable but that doesn't mean she's actually good. Anyway it's been awhile since I dusted of my copy of FE6. Keyword about Chapter 16 promotion is at earliest and that's being generous since her exp. growth slows down.

If she's level 5, she has a good chance at 18 HP, which let's her narrowly escape fate. I won't push that thought, but you seem willing to accept she's leveling quick. 3 kills here, she will have 18 HP.

Let's also not forget about Elfire. Lou can't kill with it, and still brings them down to eatable damage with normal fire if he does double, Lillina quickly does more damage with it on things he doesn't. He's not exactly begging for it.

We're going by the exact averages, which means she won't have 18 hp. And even if she was, she

still gets doubled and dies. Lilina still has D in her Anima rank so no Elfire for Chapter 9 I'm afraid.

Not even going to give her Thunder which is buyable?

For all these posts I assumed Thunder was her base tome. Please read more closely.

Yes, there is a ballista. Only 1 ballista. A normal ballista. That has 18 might at strongest with these archers. Which she can easily survive. Considering she is not a frontline unit, I would consider her drawing attention away fromthat damn thing to be a blessing in disguise, as that's a frontliner not having to eat it.

I meant one ballista. I used a plurality by mistake throughout. Won't happen again.

Anyway ballista hits, enemy immediately walks up, dead Lilina. Also you just pwned yourself, considering how you just basically said Lilina dying is better than a frontliner getting hit.

Ahh, this must be chapter 11, because the link you have is fucked up.

I'm surprised, you didn't think she'd go along the north wall. This reduces the number of enemies she faces to 1, and she might as well distract either an archer, or one of the dark mages hanging around near the end. She wants to go this way, because this is the closest path to the throne. Since she has a support, she might as well go where Roy goes, and Roy wants to take the shortest path to the throne.

Come on man, think it through. She could also do similar at level 8 or 9, not requiring you to be generous.

Front wall has Longbow archers, steel bow archers, hand axe fighters, two shamans, and a killer bow archer who could get in range and kill her. Maybe she'll stand a chance against the longbow archers and shamans, but the shamans have WTA which is bad and the she'll have to stay out of range out of everything else, thus not chipping. And being at level 8 and 9 would hurt her worse because she'll then be doubled, which makes her situation even worse.

Keyword here being nearly. Fastest enemy here has 10 AS, she's safe with 7, everything else for the most part is slower.

That doesn't mean she won't be consistently one shotted.

Annoying she can't double indeed, but if she could we wouldn't be having this argument.

Lilina is also a combat unit. Combat units are supposed to kill things. Some like Lugh start out chipping and then graduate to killing enemies. Lilina is only able to chip for most of her existance. Great chipper, but as a combat unit, she fails.

Now ask yourself really how much is a B with Lou going to help Ray.

Your next point is somewhat irrelevent, as Lou doesn't want to be caught in the heat of battle anyways.

B Lugh gives Ray 1 point attack, one point defense, 10 points of hit, 10 points of evade, and 5 points of critical and critical evade each. End of discussion whether or not B Lugh helps Ray.

It's part of the reason she's a tier below him.

Yes I know, but you were claiming Lilina makes up for not being able to double with "raw damage."

To address this point further down the line as others had responded, you would have to prove he performs better than two stat-boosters put on other people. Considering two of those stat-boosters could be Boots, good luck...

I'm going to be honest here, I'm biased towards Hugh. He's one of my favorite FE6 characters next to Cath, Ray, and Chad. I'm aware he's not good. But I think he's an extra chipper is worth more than 4 points damage, 4 points defense, 8 hit and 4 crit or 4 crit evade (since you said two stat boosters, I'm going to assume you buy a pair of one of them). Oh yeah and Boots are only found in the secret shop in Chapter 21. I'll post a detailed argument later.

But here's food for thought. Even if you don't recruit him, Hugh contributes. How you may be asking. Steal his member card. Only Hugh has it, so recruiting him give you a chipper and access to secret shops. It's not perfect, but it's something to ponder over.

By the way, I really appreciate you arguing with me. I'm learning a lot on here so thanks. :D

[grandjackal]

What I mean is that Lilina is usable but that doesn't mean she's actually good. Anyway it's been awhile since I dusted of my copy of FE6. Keyword about Chapter 16 promotion is at earliest and that's being generous since her exp. growth slows down.

Well no crap, if she was good, she'd be in upper mid and not lower.

We're going by the exact averages, which means she won't have 18 hp. And even if she was, she

still gets doubled and dies. Lilina still has D in her Anima rank so no Elfire for Chapter 9 I'm afraid.

Whoops, my bad. Last mage I argued for was Hue, had his C rank in mind. Eh, oh well.

Level 5 Lillina has 5 AS. Pirates and fighters alike have 7-8 AS with a hand axe so no, she doesn't get doubled. As for her exact averages, it's 17.8, which is plenty close enough for me to assume that 18 is possible. Regardless, a level away from 18 HP when she's still leveling quick, the problem if it exists will clear up quick.

For all these posts I assumed Thunder was her base tome. Please read more closely.

Sorry, just the one error I did see was off. Said 15 might, she should have 16 (9+1+6).

I meant one ballista. I used a plurality by mistake throughout. Won't happen again.

Anyway ballista hits, enemy immediately walks up, dead Lilina. Also you just pwned yourself, considering how you just basically said Lilina dying is better than a frontliner getting hit.

18-2 does not equal 18, which is what her HP would be. That is, unless you're assuming she's in range of not only a ballista, but someone who can target her even though she should be attacking from range, which makes her plenty easy to defend (and no, that's not a problem unless you're purposefully playing like an idiot, otherwise Shin and Klein would drop since that'sall they can actually do).

So rather instead of playing like an imbecile, we can assume my thought is correct in that her drawing a ballista shot away (outside of being targeted by two of them, which is a problem for her and just about every other mage in existence) from a frontliner is a good thing. Yes, this means her enemy phase is far and few between, but you honestly think Lou's is much better?

Front wall has Longbow archers, steel bow archers, hand axe fighters, two shamans, and a killer bow archer who could get in range and kill her. Maybe she'll stand a chance against the longbow archers and shamans, but the shamans have WTA which is bad and the she'll have to stay out of range out of everything else, thus not chipping. And being at level 8 and 9 would hurt her worse because she'll then be doubled, which makes her situation even worse.

By fighters who OHKO her anyways. 6 AS is good on everything else in that regard.

Speaking of the longbow archer, who better to drag him away? Don't even need her against the wall, just distracting that idiot and forcing him against the wall allows him to be targetted and killedsohe can stop being an annoyance for the units who will be taking point, namely Roy, Allen, Lance and Gonzales.

That doesn't mean she won't be consistently one shotted.

Fine, she's of minimal use here.

Lilina is also a combat unit. Combat units are supposed to kill things. Some like Lugh start out chipping and then graduate to killing enemies. Lilina is only able to chip for most of her existance. Great chipper, but as a combat unit, she fails.

Sorry, what does Lou kill now?

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch16x.html

20/1 Lou needs Aircalibur to kill these schmucks, Thunder for the weakest. 18/1 Lillina can do it with basic Fire, and can destroy them all.

Wait, whut? Yeah, seems Lillina has 12 AS, enough to double these steel weighed down clowns. Now, what about things that are fast? Well, Lou's got 16 AS...Which doesn't seem to double mercs, paladins, sages...However, Lillina's got generally a 5 might lead, and probably more crit because Lillina's supports (Roy and Gonzales) are still around. Give a good reason why I should steadily keep Ellen and Chad fielded at this point in the game.

Whatever he's killing that she can't, it better hurry the hell up and show itself.

B Lugh gives Ray 1 point attack, one point defense, 10 points of hit, 10 points of evade, and 5 points of critical and critical evade each. End of discussion whether or not B Lugh helps Ray.

Again, exactly how much is this helping either of them? If it still gets Lou 2RKOd, the durability boost means dick. If that 1 might of damage doesnt help Lou or Ray actually kill anything they weren't already, it isn't helping. Best I see is the 10 hti and avoid, which is at best a usable boost.

Numbers please.

Yes I know, but you were claiming Lilina makes up for not being able to double with "raw damage."

Let's take chapter 22 for an example.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch22.html

Lou can't double heroes, Lillina wins. Both double generals, Lillina wins. 20/8 Lillina can double berserkers as well as Lou could, she wins. Both double Mamkutes, Lillina wins. Lillina can't double snipers, yet Lou can. Lou with fire versus Lillina with fire does a grand total of 7 more damage if he were 20/10 and she were 20/8...Ignoring supports. If I were to factor in supports, the difference would be 4. I f I were generous, I would add Ray to say the difference is 5.

She would still at the end of it all have more crit due to her more available supports.

Chapter 21,hectic map filled with dracoknights. You could say Lou could stand on a mountain and kill with Aircalibur. Well...

20/10 Lou's avoid has 86 avoid on a mountain, 20/10 Lillina has 80-82. Not much of a difference.

"But wait, can't Gonzales accompany her for the support boost and hang out on a Peak?"

Yes, he can. So her avoid in reality would be 95-97. She can reduce the Wyvern Lord's hit down to 12-10.

"She's not killing though! She can't double!"

Give her Forblaze, now they have 7-5 hit, and she OHKOs them back. You should have plenty of time before this thing gets anywhere near destroyed in her hands. Lou could do the same, but he has no support to accompany him (unless you think Ray's a suitable partner in undertaking this when compared to freaking Gonzales on a Peak). However, there is another problem. He can't OHKO with Foreblaze until level 20/12, which he might not be at this point. Therefore it burns up quicker.

Furthermore, since hte baic wyverns won't be able to hit her, they will ignore her, but still try to trap her in.

"But what about her durability? Couldn't she still get OHKOd? Even if her chances of getting hit are low still, her dying chance would still be high"

20/10 Lillina has 5 Def, 31 HP. Gonzales makes that 8 Def. Mountains makes that 10 Def. Lords have 40 might, she can survive a shot.

I'm going to be honest here, I'm biased towards Hugh. He's one of my favorite FE6 characters next to Cath, Ray, and Chad. I'm aware he's not good. But I think he's an extra chipper is worth more than 4 points damage, 4 points defense, 8 hit and 4 crit or 4 crit evade (since you said two stat boosters, I'm going to assume you buy a pair of one of them). Oh yeah and Boots are only found in the secret shop in Chapter 21. I'll post a detailed argument later.

But here's food for thought. Even if you don't recruit him, Hugh contributes. How you may be asking. Steal his member card. Only Hugh has it, so recruiting him give you a chipper and access to secret shops. It's not perfect, but it's something to ponder over.

You're giving Hue credit for being an enemy with an item?

And hey, boots in chapter 21 might be late, but if it makes Chapter 22, 23 and the finale shorter, then it's helped work towards efficiency. Since it means Roy can not only keep up with his paladin supports, but also get to the throne faster? Well worth the trouble of waiting.

You can't deny giving Roy 4 more move would be huge. He's almost moving twice the distance, therefore getting to the throne nearly twice as fast. That's flat out cutting our time in those chapters nearly in half.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Cait Sith

[dondon151]

We're going by the exact averages, which means she won't have 18 hp. And even if she was, she

still gets doubled and dies. Lilina still has D in her Anima rank so no Elfire for Chapter 9 I'm afraid.

Fire Emblem is all about probability (unless you're playing FE9). It's not exactly fair to assume that Lilina has 18 HP all of the time, but judging by her 5/0 average, she will have 18 HP more often than any other value, so it's even worse of a misrepresentation to never assume that she has 18 HP at 5/0.

Anyway ballista hits, enemy immediately walks up, dead Lilina. Also you just pwned yourself, considering how you just basically said Lilina dying is better than a frontliner getting hit.

We can't assume that the player is stupid enough to put Lilina in the circumstance where she will be 2HKO'd by ballista + something else. If what the player gets out of it doesn't match the effort that he has to take to keep her out of trouble, he's not performing that action in the first place. That's not to say that it will always or never happen, but you can't penalize Lilina for forcing some sort of protection in most circumstances; you can, however, say that she either reduces flexibility or just doesn't do anything at all in the interest of safety.

I'm going to be honest here, I'm biased towards Hugh. He's one of my favorite FE6 characters next to Cath, Ray, and Chad. I'm aware he's not good. But I think he's an extra chipper is worth more than 4 points damage, 4 points defense, 8 hit and 4 crit or 4 crit evade (since you said two stat boosters, I'm going to assume you buy a pair of one of them). Oh yeah and Boots are only found in the secret shop in Chapter 21. I'll post a detailed argument later.

What you think is meaningless if you can't support it with fact. Angelic Robes and Dragonshields make the difference between how many rounds of combat a unit can survive. Speedwings double a unit's offense against certain enemy types. Most importantly, Boots save you a quantifiable number of turns. The number of turns that Boots save is greater than the number of turns that Hugh saves. If we can buy 3.75 Boots with the cash that we spend on using Hugh seriously (10k recruit + 5k promotion), that's almost equivalent to +4 move to 2 units on the team. On large maps like chapters 22-24 (esp. 24), those Boots will save you a lot of turns (cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGEBvU23924 ). Exactly quantifying how many turns will actually be saved through Boots distribution is difficult, but Hugh is not a choice for optimal deployment when he joins, so he ends up not saving any turns.

But here's food for thought. Even if you don't recruit him, Hugh contributes. How you may be asking. Steal his member card. Only Hugh has it, so recruiting him give you a chipper and access to secret shops. It's not perfect, but it's something to ponder over.

Hugh doesn't get any credit for having the Member Card. The units who do get credit for it are Roy, who obtains it for the army's use upon recruiting Hugh, and your thieves, who enable you to steal the resource without recruiting Hugh.

Edited April 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

The topic can't load up my post, so I'll divide it into two. I won't double post though, so reply to the first post as you will. Plus I give up on arguing about Hugh.

Whoops, my bad. Last mage I argued for was Hue, had his C rank in mind. Eh, oh well.

Level 5 Lillina has 5 AS. Pirates and fighters alike have 7-8 AS with a hand axe so no, she doesn't get doubled. As for her exact averages, it's 17.8, which is plenty close enough for me to assume that 18 is possible. Regardless, a level away from 18 HP when she's still leveling quick, the problem if it exists will clear up quick.

Pirates and fighters have 12 strength. 12+6 (from hand axe)-2= 16 (or 17 if you insist on her having 18 hp). 1 (or 2) hp left. Enemy walks up to Lilina, Lilina dead. With Iron axe Lilina definetley dies regardless whether or not her hp is 18. But Dark Sage you might say, who would be stupid enough to leave Lilina in front like that. Well pirates cross the river and hit her with them so it's not stupid playing. Poison axe does roughly the same damage as hand axe and poison. If she survives the next hit, she dies from poison.

Sorry, just the one error I did see was off. Said 15 might, she should have 16 (9+1+6).

Duly noted.

18-2 does not equal 18, which is what her HP would be. That is, unless you're assuming she's in range of not only a ballista, but someone who can target her even though she should be attacking from range, which makes her plenty easy to defend (and no, that's not a problem unless you're purposefully playing like an idiot, otherwise Shin and Klein would drop since that'sall they can actually do).

So rather instead of playing like an imbecile, we can assume my thought is correct in that her drawing a ballista shot away (outside of being targeted by two of them, which is a problem for her and just about every other mage in existence) from a frontliner is a good thing. Yes, this means her enemy phase is far and few between, but you honestly think Lou's is much better?

Yeah, Lugh is doing better because of something called durability.

Yeah it is a problem even if you are playing like an idiot. Since the area is an open field where ballista range is, I'll have to wall her in, meaning I'll have to give up a more optimal (and efficent) position just to protect Lilina. She'll then need a healer after getting hit by the ballista which means either she'll need to run back away from the battle, which limits her offense, or the healer will need to go down to heal her and risk death. Using a vulnerary isn't enough and there aren't quite enough elixirs to go around. Unless you're Clarine, in which case forget the second point about risking death from ballisite.

Also Shin and Klein have durability too. That's why they're high up. They can survive a few hits, which means defending them is less of a problem. Lilina would be lucky even to survive a blow.

Sorry, what does Lou kill now?

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch16x.html

20/1 Lou needs Aircalibur to kill these schmucks, Thunder for the weakest. 18/1 Lillina can do it with basic Fire, and can destroy them all.

Wait, whut? Yeah, seems Lillina has 12 AS, enough to double these steel weighed down clowns. Now, what about things that are fast? Well, Lou's got 16 AS...Which doesn't seem to double mercs, paladins, sages...However, Lillina's got generally a 5 might lead, and probably more crit because Lillina's supports (Roy and Gonzales) are still around. Give a good reason why I should steadily keep Ellen and Chad fielded at this point in the game.

Whatever he's killing that she can't, it better hurry the hell up and show itself.

Ellen problably has an A rank in staves. You don't need Chad, but you could use Ray.

Her durability yet again bites her in the ass. Heavenly arrows do ten damage a piece, plus she has 26.7 hp and LOL 4.7 defense. Avoid (Assuming she has B Gonzales and C Roy) 45.3. While she is easy to defend from enemies here and she can dodge decently (though not particularly specially), she also has the threat of three Heavenly arrows munching her. Combine that with Bolting Sages (who do 7 damage a pop, though she has a shot at dodging these).

Lugh has 29 hp and 7.8 defense. His avoid (using C Ellen and B Ray) is 59.9, nearly 15 points higher than Lilina's. I know what you're thinking, he takes more damage from Bolting (which he most likely dodges) and he also gets 3RKOd by Heavenly arrows. He has reasonable dodging abilities to enemies.

20/5 Sage has Elfire. He has 119 hit. He has a 59.1% chance of hitting Lugh, not the best odds. Though to be fair, he doesn't tolerate the blow well (takes 19 damage), but then again, Lilina has 73.4 chance of getting hit and takes 18 damage.

20/6 Paladin has Steel Lance (I'm assuming there's steel lance paladins on this map with silver lance paladins) He has 93 hit. With Silver Lance, it's 103. Lugh gets hit by steel lance paladin 35.1% of the time and takes 17 damage. With silver it's 45.1% of the time and takes 21 damage. Yeah he gets two shotted, but he doubles the steel lance paladin, and he still has a high chance of dodging the steel lance and a good shot of dodging the silver lance one. Lilina however dodges 45.7% of the time to the steel lance and takes 19 damage. The silver lance paladin hits her 55.7 percent of the time for 23 damage. She has a decent shot at dodging both but not nearly as well as Lugh.

12/0 mercenary attacks armed with Steel Sword. He has 109 hit. Lugh dodges 49.1% of the time and takes 12 damage, while Lilina dodges 63.7% of the time and takes 14 damage. Lugh gets 3RKOd, Lilina gets 2RKOd.

Last enemy will be 20/6 bishop with Divine. He has 103 hit. Lugh dodges 35.1% of the time and takes 11 damage. Lugh then doubles and deals 14 damage (with Aircalibur) in total. Lilina gets hit 55.7% of the time and takes 9 damage. She doesn't double and deals 10 damage in total.

Proves my point.

[quote name='Cait Sith' date='06 April 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1270600568' post='948313'

Again, exactly how much is this helping either of them? If it still gets Lou 2RKOd, the durability boost means dick. If that 1 might of damage doesnt help Lou or Ray actually kill anything they weren't already, it isn't helping. Best I see is the 10 hti and avoid, which is at best a usable boost.

It's really the hit and avoid that's helpful and it is quite helpful. With Nosferatau, 17/0 Ray with B Lugh/C Chad has a hit rate of 112.5 and avoid of 43.7%. With only B Lugh, it's 107.5% and 38.7% respectively.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dark Sage

[nflchamp]

Is there a point in saying Lugh > Lillina? I mean, is someone saying Lillina > Lugh? Or that Lillina is Upper Mid? Because I don't see the point of the comparison otherwise.

[-Cynthia-]

I think that the point is that Lugh isn't that much better than Lilina.

Note that there has been no motion to move Lilina up, just for her to hold position. I personally don't see any reason for Lilina to move up (she's worse than Igrene IMO), but I haven't seen anything that convincing for her to move down either.

Edited April 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

I no longer want Lilina to go down, instead I just want her stay where she is. Also nflchamp, I made comparisons to Lugh because so did Cait Sith.

Also I lost the second half of my reply so I'll do it later.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dark Sage

[grandjackal]

Basically the argument started with Lillina going to Low (Dark Sage), and I was saying that she has no real reason to drop from lower mid,and I used Lou as sort of a counter point (as in, there's at best a single tier difference between her and Lou rather than two). I know I'm not claiming she needs to be upper mid, or closer to Lou. Just saying she doesn't really need to drop.

EDIT: Yeesh, I got super-ninja'd.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Cait Sith

[GreatEclipse]

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements.

This is from the first page. It explicitly says that recruitment costs are deleted. If Treck is not punished for the loss to efficiency as a result of his recruitment, the same must be done for Hugh.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Treck's recruitment actually costs us so much that it affects his tier position. It's what, an extra 1-2 turns? That's about the same as Gonzales. The amount of gold Hugh costs us means a lot more.

That statement is to measure the usefulness of a unit over their playtime,not completely ingore recruitmet costs.

Edited April 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

Yeah. Even I who like Hugh and would defend him to death (though not very well) admit that 10K is enough not to put him in Upper Mid. At least in hard mode. In Normal Mode, his flaws are not such a big deal (he does turn out good, if impractical), but in Hard Mode, not so much.

[Dat Nick]

Taking two seconds to go out of your way to recruit Treck is nowhere near the level of negative utility of 20ks worth of boots.

[GreatEclipse]

I simply reminded people of what the rules say. I am indifferent to the specifics.

And my second question has still gone unanswered.

Edited April 7, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dat Nick]

I simply reminded people of what the rules say. I am indifferent to the specifics.

Be as indifferent as you want. You exaggerate Treck's recruitment cost.

[GreatEclipse]

Treck makes the most difficult chapter in the game even more difficult. That is not something I consider minor, though if people want to forgive it I understand.

[CATS]

Be as indifferent as you want. You exaggerate Treck's recruitment cost.

Exaggerate Treck's recruitment cost? You twist his words. He specifically said he was pointing out what the rules say, and that he was indifferent to the specifics, not that he wanted to say anything about Treck's placement or the magnitude of his recruitment cost.

And the rule does say "to delete the recruitment costs of a unit"; not "to delete recruitment costs that people think are minor" or "to delete only Treck's recruitment cost." So is it applied selectively? Or are recruitment costs actually supposed to be taken into account, despite what this guideline says?

[Dat Nick]

You twist his words.

No, I'm not. He's complaining that Treck's recruitment cost isn't accounted for. It already is. He just doesn't want to accept that it's nowhere near as bad as he thinks it is.

Treck makes the most difficult chapter in the game even more difficult.

most difficult? hardly

[GreatEclipse]

Currently at 14x, chapter 7 was the most difficult chapter so far. It is not stated anywhere that his recruitment cost is accounted for, and the rules suggest the opposite. I am not trying to get Treck into rock bottom, in fact I agree that opportunity cost to recruitment should be ignored (Joke arguments like Wendy > Treck and Sophia > Elfin are only to make a point). However difficult it is for me to apply it consistently, given my personal experiences.

Edited April 7, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Narga_Rocks]

We're going by the exact averages, which means she won't have 18 hp. And even if she was, she

still gets doubled and dies. Lilina still has D in her Anima rank so no Elfire for Chapter 9 I'm afraid.

Whoops, my bad. Last mage I argued for was Hue, had his C rank in mind. Eh, oh well.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/char_base.html

Do me a favour and click the link, then use ctrl + f and type "lilina". Find the highlight, scan to the right, what do you see under weapon ranks?

Lilina can use elfire if we feel like giving her elfire.

It's kinda sad that Hugh starts in chapter 16 with the same weapon rank that Lilina had in chapter 8. Lugh should have s rank anima if he's promoted or a rank if he isn't yet promoted. If he isn't at a/s rank, he should be really really close. Lilina lacks a lot of doubling that Lugh can do, so it is entirely possible she could be just past B, but if she's promoted then she should have an A by now. And Hugh has a C. Yay Hugh. Not quite as bad as Miledy's brother, though. Zeis has a D lances when you probably bought a stack of killer lances for your good lance users. Thany should have an s rank if promoted (for all the good it does her before chapter 21), the cavs should have an a if promoted or a b if not (splitting between swords and lances slows down wexp growth). Miledy should have B (or A if promoted). Tate I would assume is also sitting with s if promoted. Considering you can have Thany (before promotion) at A lances by chapter 10 if you really want it is incredibly sad that Zeis starts with D in chapter 16.

[Dark Sage]

He eats up an extra few turns to be sure, but if that makes Treck a bad unit or severely penalizes him, then Hugh is the worst character in the game because Roy has to take a different, longer route to the throne room to get him, which is not true [Hugh being the worst] and you know it.

See what's wrong with your availability arguments? And why do you hate Treck so much?

Narga_Rocks: Whoops about the weapon rank. I should read stuff more closely nex time.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dark Sage