FE6 HM Tier List

[riariadne]

Wait, Wolt's possibly moving out of low tier? Why haven't I been informed of this? I had this whole argument saved somewhere about why Wolt shouldn't be low tier but I think it's outdated. Lemme check...

EDIT: K yeah Wolt was below Dorothy on the (rather laughable) list in question so it's a moot point. Wolt's chip damage is for like what, 8? I think that can put some d00ds into ORKO range for Lance (granted, not many of them, but it's still something).

Edited June 27, 2010 by Lightning

[Narga_Rocks]

Wait, Wolt's possibly moving out of low tier? Why haven't I been informed of this? I had this whole argument saved somewhere about why Wolt shouldn't be low tier but I think it's outdated. Lemme check...

EDIT: K yeah Wolt was below Dorothy on the (rather laughable) list in question so it's a moot point. Wolt's chip damage is for like what, 8? I think that can put some d00ds into ORKO range for Lance (granted, not many of them, but it's still something).

He's not likely to be low tier on an optimal deployment list. On one that lets units be fielded to determine contributions? Low is fine. I'm not arguing about him in low on this one.

[Colonel M]

Well, CATS isn't exactly wrong in his stance of Optimal Deployment. For example, many of our teams look fairly similar because, since we're playing efficient, we are effectively using the best. Then again, I never thought of the Tier List being a place where it slaps "Optimal Deployment" over and over. From what it seems, the argument seemed to always go like this:

"If this unit is fielded, how is said unit contributing to low turncounts, and thus efficiency being reached?"

While units like Wolt contribute early game, units like Oujay contribute later in the game and closer to the team's stats, if you get what I mean. While Oujay costs resources and time in order to contribute later into the game, it now becomes an argument of "the equation". Unfortunately, when I was arguing something like this back in the Shining Force II boards, it fell on deaf ears. They want to play the game "their way" in which they make a fabricated efficiency that makes absolutely 0 sense (this person called it "Experience Efficiency"). Now we generally outline "if we were forced to use both units and we were only allowed a set amount of resources, who would cost less for more result?" There's a lot of different ways how an Efficiency Tier list can work. We can assume Maximum Efficiency, or we can assume a fabricated Efficiency that still follows the qualifications, yet it ranks the characters as to how if given the chance how they will contribute. A Maximum Efficiency Tier list would be something more like an Optimal Deployment list. Whoever has the most # of Optimal Deployment chapters would be ranked higher than those that have a lower #; unless we expand further onto it and rank chapters based on difficulty as well (for example, say that Chapter 1 is worth 3 points to Chapter 15's 1 point).

It's a lot to digest, but in a sense I've always viewed a tier list based on that principle that I listed in quotations and left alone above. And, as demonstrated by Interceptor and CATS, there is nothing wrong with multiple tier lists. We can make one based on Optimal Deployment to further figure how units are contributing to a low turn count under realistic conditions.

I'm not a fan of the Monopoly example, mainly because it seems hostile. Person #5's opinion matters just as much as 1-4's and, of course, shouldn't be completely excluded from a game. Think of it as a game of Euchre where you either allow Farmer's Hand (if you have a combination of 3 9s and 10s, you can swap them for the bottom 3 cards so long as you pass on calling the top card) or not. This can be seen as like a "Farmer's Hand" Tier list, while a Maximum Efficiency Tier list looks more like the realistic game of Euchre.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Colonel M

[CATS]

And again, for those other guys, it's not an "extra rule". It's a question of interpretation of the only existing rule. "Maybe they are interpreting it differently than I would". Of course, if I had to guess, I'd say that dondon would perhaps like the optimal deployment style. There are a number of others that have voiced their opinion on why they wouldn't like it, so it makes it tough that we may have a near even split. Colonel M indicated a willingness to go for Optimal Deployment. smash has always raged against people assuming you are only using top/high tiers (even when they weren't and that was just his misinterpretation, and in other situations he kinda forgot he was supposed to hate optimal deployment since when it hurts units like Nephenee he talks about all those "better" GMs) so (unless there is some unit he wants to push down on this list that would suffer from Optimal Deployment) I'd bet that he would be against it, too. Not that it matters now that he can't post here, but still.

Yeah, you could call it an alternate interpretation. Either way, my point is just that it wasn't clear to begin with, so I don't think it's quite fair to tell me "this has been right here from the start of the tier lists."

Really, it might be better to make another topic with the optimal deployment assumption. I'm sure it would get a fair amount of activity for the first few days to get better positions for units that only ever get deployed in their starting chapters or as long as they are better than the rest. I think dondon or someone made an "optimal deployment per chapter" type of list somewhere. The optimal deployment tier list would likely assume units only get deployed in a chapter if they are on that list. Then you can place them on the list based on how much they do when out there. (obviously the units in each chapter list could be argued about, too)

You're right, this one's not going to change, so a separate tier list for optimal deployment would be the better idea. I would think it appropriate to see a list like this one get a moniker attached to it, though, such as "FE6 Continual Deployment Tier List" or something along those lines; as opposed to having "FE6 Optimal Deployment Tier List" and "FE6 Tier List," as if one is the "main" list and any others are conditional side projects. That's one of the major things that bugged me; I had the impression that this tier list method was being institutionalized as the "official" way of doing things, or something along those lines. Attaching a label to all tier lists based on their conditions would be more accurate, considering the mentality that there is no "best" or "right" way to do it, simply different ways.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, you could call it an alternate interpretation. Either way, my point is just that it wasn't clear to begin with, so I don't think it's quite fair to tell me "this has been right here from the start of the tier lists."

point taken.

You're right, this one's not going to change, so a separate tier list for optimal deployment would be the better idea. I would think it appropriate to see a list like this one get a moniker attached to it, though, such as "FE6 Continual Deployment Tier List" or something along those lines; as opposed to having "FE6 Optimal Deployment Tier List" and "FE6 Tier List," as if one is the "main" list and any others are conditional side projects. That's one of the major things that bugged me; I had the impression that this tier list method was being institutionalized as the "official" way of doing things, or something along those lines. Attaching a label to all tier lists based on their conditions would be more accurate, considering the mentality that there is no "best" or "right" way to do it, simply different ways.

actually, yeah. If another list does end up getting made, then this one should get notation either near the top of the first post, in the title, or as a subtitle to indicate that it rates contributions of characters as if they actually get the chance to contribute. The other one would, of course, need to say "optimal deployment" or something, but leaving this one merely as "FE6 Tier List" would probably be an injustice to the optimal deployment one.

[Rewjeo]

My one question for the optimal deployment list is what about units that can potentially become optimal without too much work, but don't start optimal?

[Salad Utensil]

My one question for the optimal deployment list is what about units that can potentially become optimal without too much work, but don't start optimal?

Fir and Ray maybe, probably Lugh as well? Basically character that are outclassed early on, but still usable, but will not be used due to low deployment

Ogier, Geese, Sue, and Zeiss are on the lower half of the tier lists, but hold good late-game potential if used, though its probably too late for Zeiss since he joins really late with a D in weapon ranks, but might be worth using as an extra flier, when deployment is high...

I feel like since most people don't use the above very often, it's harder to judge whether they are worth it or not or how difficult (or not) to train them .

Edited June 27, 2010 by Brighton

[dondon151]

It takes a lot of EXP investment to make those units any good, and what they bring to your team in the long run is not worth it, especially when in each of the cases above (except for the magic users), there's already someone else who does the job with less EXP investment.

[Salad Utensil]

It takes a lot of EXP investment to make those units any good, and what they bring to your team in the long run is not worth it, especially when in each of the cases above (except for the magic users), there's already someone else who does the job with less EXP investment.

Yup, so those characters would move down if the criteria for ranking is based on optimal deployment, since people don't use them in 'reality'.

[Colonel M]

So the major question is what do we call this tier list then? "Normal Efficiency" doesn't seem right. There'd also likely be a few changes here to consider as well, since now we are assuming that units can be fielded overall. I don't think there'd be "major" differences, but nevertheless.

[Anouleth]

Give it a name to strike terror into the hearts of your enemies and inspire lust in the hearts of beautiful dames, obviously.

[Duff Ostrich]

I don't suppose 14 days or so is necroposting? Certainly not when concerning a tier list.

Thany in high tier... shows that I am way out of touch on this. Given that when I was last here I tried to argue her below Barth, I'm confused (to say the least) to see her so high now, especially when the rest of the tier list more or less still makes reasonable sense to me.

Short of flying around and not killing anything, what is Thany contributing?

EDIT: By the way, I am more than willing to have my preconceptions challenged. I am geniunely interested to see the justification for Thany's advancement.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Duff Ostrich

[Ether]

Flight,and not absolutely horrible combat(I think she 2RKO's with Killers,IIRC)

But flight/rescuing has become massive since Dondon's 0% Growths playthroughs.

[Narga_Rocks]

Flight,and not absolutely horrible combat(I think she 2RKO's with Killers,IIRC)

But flight/rescuing has become massive since Dondon's 0% Growths playthroughs.

And caring more about ability to reduce turncounts. Watch his playthrough, look at what rescuing and ferrying actually accomplishes. Thany is similar to Marcus in terms of turn saving. Even in, say, chapter 15 when you have Miledy, only one flier is probably not optimal.

[Anouleth]

I like his comment on Chapter 14 that even base level Thany is still his 3rd best unit. Thany is good pretty much until Ballistae and Siege tomes start appearing in high numbers, and even then she can survive the tomes with some training. Plus, she can eat an early promotion for Swords in the Isles, giving her decent durability I think. Something like that.

[Colonel M]

Thany's main contribution is flight, and since part of our goals is a low turncount, Thany helps accomplish that. Flight is mad useful even if you lack combat (at least if there's Rescue). Just recalling from the top of my head:

- Chapter 2 she can ferry Roy across the mountains, or get the Armorslayer and give it to Dieck.

- Chapter 5 she can place Marcus on the fort.

- High mobility is needed in Chapter 6, so she helps with that.

- Chapter 7 she can fly over the walls, which can help give keys to a group (usually Noah / Treck)

- Chapter 8 requires mad movement.

-Chapter 8X has the gaps

- Chapter 9 has the water and mountains that she can fly over.

- Chapter 10 she goes to the Axereaver Village.

- Chapter 11 she can fly over the walls, and is useful for ferrying Rutger over to stomp the boss on Turn 4 / 5.

- Chapter 13 she can help with ferrying units.

- Chapter 14 is loldesert.

- Chapter 14X she can ferry units (Roy) outside Bolting range).

- Chapter 15 she can ferry units over the mountain.

- HEAVY terrain in Ilia; Sacae has moments needing high Mov.

- Chapter 21 is flight-dominated

Etc. Flight and high Mov are the biggest reasons Thany is so high. Unpromoted she can ferry promoted Gonzales, so that makes Peak Killing much easier. I also wouldn't bother training her. The EXP put into her is better placed elsewhere, and even though she's good on the Western Isles with Swords, she sucks after that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Thany's main contribution is flight, and since part of our goals is a low turncount, Thany helps accomplish that. Flight is mad useful even if you lack combat (at least if there's Rescue). Just recalling from the top of my head:

- Chapter 2 she can ferry Roy across the mountains, or get the Armorslayer and give it to Dieck.

- Chapter 5 she can place Marcus on the fort.

- High mobility is needed in Chapter 6, so she helps with that.

- Chapter 7 she can fly over the walls, which can help give keys to a group (usually Noah / Treck)

- Chapter 8 requires mad movement.

-Chapter 8X has the gaps

- Chapter 9 has the water and mountains that she can fly over.

- Chapter 10 she goes to the Axereaver Village.

- Chapter 11 she can fly over the walls, and is useful for ferrying Rutger over to stomp the boss on Turn 4 / 5.

- Chapter 13 she can help with ferrying units.

- Chapter 14 is loldesert.

- Chapter 14X she can ferry units (Roy) outside Bolting range).

- Chapter 15 she can ferry units over the mountain.

- HEAVY terrain in Ilia; Sacae has moments needing high Mov.

- Chapter 21 is flight-dominated

Etc. Flight and high Mov are the biggest reasons Thany is so high. Unpromoted she can ferry promoted Gonzales, so that makes Peak Killing much easier. I also wouldn't bother training her. The EXP put into her is better placed elsewhere, and even though she's good on the Western Isles with Swords, she sucks after that.

Thany's not terrible at fighting. Even with frequent ferrying of others, she still has time to hit 14/1 for chapter 14. At this point she can ORKO the unpromoted mages with killer lances and take mostly minor damage in return (aside from aircalibur, obviously). Beyond that, a lot of the time you'll find she 4HKOs and doubles with killers. Considering most of your team won't be ORKOing stuff (like, even Lance. Also Alan if he's not fast enough), having a >50% chance to kill things thanks to two shots at crits is not a bad thing. Granted, there are enemies along the way that are not 4HKOd (Armors + any melee promoted unit) but she doesn't "suck" at combat if you trained her.

But as you know, combat isn't her main draw so maybe I shouldn't bother pointing this out.

[Colonel M]

Thany's not terrible at fighting. Even with frequent ferrying of others, she still has time to hit 14/1 for chapter 14. At this point she can ORKO the unpromoted mages with killer lances and take mostly minor damage in return (aside from aircalibur, obviously). Beyond that, a lot of the time you'll find she 4HKOs and doubles with killers. Considering most of your team won't be ORKOing stuff (like, even Lance. Also Alan if he's not fast enough), having a >50% chance to kill things thanks to two shots at crits is not a bad thing. Granted, there are enemies along the way that are not 4HKOd (Armors + any melee promoted unit) but she doesn't "suck" at combat if you trained her.

But as you know, combat isn't her main draw so maybe I shouldn't bother pointing this out.

At the bold is why I feel training Thany is not exactly the most stellar of ideas in the world. There are some returns that can be made, but it also has costs. First, we have to train her up levels. Now, 14/1 is a lot to ask for by Chapter 14 considering that Thany is locked on Lances and she constantly falls WTD in the Isles, and Shamans don't really poke their heads until Chapter 10. She's not exactly Ms. Accurate either since Wind support's +Hit will only add up halfway (Dieck has Thunder, Lot has Anima if you even carry him that far, let's not talk about Ward seriously). With her Str growth being as iffy as it is, and the point that it takes a lot of effort to put her into said 14/1 range is why I feel she should just play ferrybot. If you seriously want a unit that can be a combat and ferry master, Tate and Miledy are a lot closer to those leagues. Tate takes a bit of work, but at least she has better grace periods (Horseslayer, Axereaver, Klein support being quick and painless).

Edited July 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

At the bold is why I feel training Thany is not exactly the most stellar of ideas in the world. There are some returns that can be made, but it also has costs. First, we have to train her up levels. Now, 14/1 is a lot to ask for by Chapter 14 considering that Thany is locked on Lances and she constantly falls WTD in the Isles, and Shamans don't really poke their heads until Chapter 10. She's not exactly Ms. Accurate either since Wind support's +Hit will only add up halfway (Dieck has Thunder, Lot has Anima if you even carry him that far, let's not talk about Ward seriously). With her Str growth being as iffy as it is, and the point that it takes a lot of effort to put her into said 14/1 range is why I feel she should just play ferrybot. If you seriously want a unit that can be a combat and ferry master, Tate and Miledy are a lot closer to those leagues. Tate takes a bit of work, but at least she has better grace periods (Horseslayer, Axereaver, Klein support being quick and painless).

Miledy isn't ferrying all that often given her ability to obliterate almost anything she attacks. Tate is worse than Thany in everything for a fairly long time. Can she even reach C lances in time for killers? (chapter 14, basically)

I suppose come chapter 18+ or something Tate might actually be winning the competition, but until then Thany is way better and I didn't find it difficult to train her at all. Most of the isles she's ferrying anyway, and there are a few archers to one range along the way when she isn't.

[Dark Sage]

Tate's a little difficult to drain even in normal do to durability. Horseslayer weighs her down so much she can actually get doubled. Plus, I don't think she has enough weapon rank to use killers off the bat.

[grandjackal]

5 months...Yeah, totally not a necropost. If any mods have a problem with me necroposting this tier list, let me know and I'll let this get locked and start a new one. However, simply letting this one come back to life would be much simpler, as it's already got a list made, and thus easier to base changes off of.

Now, in the 5 month gap, a lot of mindsets changed about efficiency, what is acceptable, and if we want the casual or lowest turn count possible when it comes to efficient play. Considering that, I would like to cast the following things under speculation compared to how the tier list looks now.

-Could Echidna being higher actually be possible? The body ring could help her quite a bit, and I would not be against giving her a Robe or a Shield on top of it.

-Saul is our earliest warper, and would have definite contributions to the likes of 14x and 16. because of it.

-Does Lou really deserve to be a tier above his brother?

-We might have to revaluate all the mages in general.

-Since we're no longer prudes about giving unpromoted units a stat booster on top of promotion, Noah could be looked into again considering getting the earliest wing, he being a benefit for it because on top of possible doubling, it would most notable on him due to his class of cavalier.

-If Geese and Oujay even belong in the same tier as the likes of Zeiss, Ward and Treck.

-Sue's placement I feel could be thought over, if only for her horse.

-Why Garret is as high in Sacae as he is in Ilia despite far worse contribution in Sacae.

-I might have to relook Lillina again, as recent playthroughs have shown Lou's leveling might not be good enough for him to manage the speed he wants, so I feel a recomparison might be called for. Whether that means she rises or Lou/Ray fall depends on what conclusions we can draw when we reanalyze the mages.

-Should thieves be tiered seriously?

-Thany's flight transportation and flight might mean a bit more than Gonzales and Shin being total ballers.

Brief points, but a long checklist.

[Dark Sage]

5 months...Yeah, totally not a necropost. If any mods have a problem with me necroposting this tier list, let me know and I'll let this get locked and start a new one. However, simply letting this one come back to life would be much simpler, as it's already got a list made, and thus easier to base changes off of.

Now, in the 5 month gap, a lot of mindsets changed about efficiency, what is acceptable, and if we want the casual or lowest turn count possible when it comes to efficient play. Considering that, I would like to cast the following things under speculation compared to how the tier list looks now.

-Could Echidna being higher actually be possible? The body ring could help her quite a bit, and I would not be against giving her a Robe or a Shield on top of it.

I agree with this. A body ring may benefit her, but she's not exactly begging for it.

-Saul is our earliest warper, and would have definite contributions to the likes of 14x and 16. because of it.

Well there's Ellen I guess, who just might be able to pull a C rank in staves when Saul joins (extremely doubtful). Although Saul is quite superior.

-Does Lou really deserve to be a tier above his brother?

Well first off, this is not maximum efficiency. So let's take Lugh's contributions from the top. Early on, he does accurate, damaging potshots and those could be useful for weakening enemies. You need all hands on deck, and when cavs attack in Chapter 4, you want everyone to help out in lowering their HP so Marcus can oneshot them with his silver lance or just to make things go faster. Lugh's ability to do damage without eating a counter is pretty valuable early on. Only nomads ORKO him, and that's only be 10 speed nomads. Chapter 5, he isn't as useful, but he still can play chipper, and doesn't do a bad job of it. Chapter 6, he can do some serious damage to enemies, and he may double consistently (he's facing soldiers and armors), and his ability to damage armors pretty well outside of hammertime Marcus and Lott. If it's worth anything, his accuracy is at least better than hammertime Lott. Later if you want, you can throw a speedwing on it and he won't be so borderline on doubling. He can then do heavy magic damage through doubling, and if promoted to sage to get that awesome +4 to magic, has a shot of maybe ORKOing things if he doubles. Maybe. I'll check stats if you want, but at the very least, he does have Aircalibur utility to take out wyverns, so that's always nice.

Best Ray can hope for is a Body Ring, maybe an Angelic Robe (I don't want to do this) and Nosferatau tank eventually. He never has the amount of utility Lugh has, whether earlygame or lategame.

-We might have to revaluate all the mages in general.

Possibly. Although I really doubt they suck as much as FE10 mages.

-Since we're no longer prudes about giving unpromoted units a stat booster on top of promotion, Noah could be looked into again considering getting the earliest wing, he being a benefit for it because on top of possible doubling, it would most notable on him due to his class of cavalier.

I sort of agree, but maybe also consider giving him a Dracoshield? You could do a lot worse with it.

-If Geese and Oujay even belong in the same tier as the likes of Zeiss, Ward and Treck.

Zeiss is better than both Oujay and Geese if you ask me. Ward and Treck however are at their level.

-Sue's placement I feel could be thought over, if only for her horse.

Agreed with this. I like the horse and the wyvern killing and little competition for promotion.

-Why Garret is as high in Sacae as he is in Ilia despite far worse contribution in Sacae.

I think they just forgot and randomly put him there. Honestly, I agree with you here.

-I might have to relook Lillina again, as recent playthroughs have shown Lou's leveling might not be good enough for him to manage the speed he wants, so I feel a recomparison might be called for. Whether that means she rises or Lou/Ray fall depends on what conclusions we can draw when we reanalyze the mages.

Lilina does nearly as badly as Lugh supposedly does early on, but not content to have the worst durability on the team upon arrival, she has the worst durability in maps where enemies can double her or OHKO her. Lugh at least can start doubling with minimal effort (speedwing) and we get a decent avoider out of it. Lilina needs all the levels and resources piled on her to be marginally better than Ray is when he joins.

-Should thieves be tiered seriously?

Why not?

-Thany's flight transportation and flight might mean a bit more than Gonzales and Shin being total ballers.

Not sure about this honestly but flight's a difficult subject, so I probably shouldn't talk about this.

Brief points, but a long checklist.

I gathered.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Dark Sage

[grandjackal]

I agree with this. A body ring may benefit her, but she's not exactly begging for it.

When it comes to her lategame performance in Bern it could. 19 speed is great, but 20 is where it's perfect. Her speed growth is kinda meh, and while she can pull off 20 speed comfortably, her con keeps her from really using hte weapons she wants in Bern without weighing her down. Body Ring on her goes a long long way.

Well first off, this is not maximum efficiency. So let's take Lugh's contributions from the top. Early on, he does accurate, damaging potshots and those could be useful for weakening enemies. You need all hands on deck, and when cavs attack in Chapter 4, you want everyone to help out in lowering their HP so Marcus can oneshot them with his silver lance or just to make things go faster. Lugh's ability to do damage without eating a counter is pretty valuable early on. Only nomads ORKO him, and that's only be 10 speed nomads.

This is why I say he wouldn't drop considerably, though agan wth the reanalyzing of mages, I might be wrong about them being in the same tier, he and his brother. Maybe both should drop a tier. Mid sounds about right for Lou. For example, Lou would go where Ray is now (I don't see him being more useful than Noah, and I think his contributions early on beat Igrene's Sacae contributions), and Ray can go somewhere to where Lillina is now.

Chapter 6, he can do some serious damage to enemies, and he may double consistently (he's facing soldiers and armors), and his ability to damage armors pretty well outside of hammertime Marcus and Lott. If it's worth anything, his accuracy is at least better than hammertime Lott.

My concern is unit slots. I recall chapter 6 having...7 or 9 slots. The cavs, Marcus, Lott, Deick and Rutger are a given, so that's 6. Then we got Clarine, that's 7. If there is in fact 9, Ward's actually still a good unit to bring, because loldiers are loldiers, and Ward has enough speed to put his mighty lumberjac powers to good use. If there's 9 slots, yeah he gets a free pass, but if there's 7 I would venture he has a hard time justifying being put in.

Later if you want, you can throw a speedwing on it and he won't be so borderline on doubling. He can then do heavy magic damage through doubling, and if promoted to sage to get that awesome +4 to magic, has a shot of maybe ORKOing things if he doubles. Maybe.

While this indeed isn't a max efficiency list, this is also not communist emblem. I cannot simply just say Lou gets a wing and call it a day when I could give it to someone who will be experiencing enemy phase far more often than he will be. Especially for a maybe.

I'll check stats if you want, but at the very least, he does have Aircalibur utility to take out wyverns, so that's always nice.

You don't have to ask me, just slap stats up and present your argument, and the people reading it over will either agree, or they will disagree and present ther end of the argument.

While he won't be doubling with Aircalibur until later on, I suppose it's still good just to take a massive chunk off the bulky bastards.

Best Ray can hope for is a Body Ring, maybe an Angelic Robe (I don't want to do this) and Nosferatau tank eventually. He never has the amount of utility Lugh has, whether earlygame or lategame.

I still would not give him a Body Ring, simply because it's point will vanish after he promotes. Also, I still wouldn't put Nosferatu tanking in his favor, due to shaky accuracy and thus shaky credibility.

Possibly. Although I really doubt they suck as much as FE10 mages.

At least Saul can be good.

I sort of agree, but maybe also consider giving him a Dracoshield? You could do a lot worse with it.

11 Def certainly never hurt anyone, but I am shaky on overspoiling him. While he puts the Wing to better use tham some, the Dracoshield is sort of universally wanted by anyone not a mage.

Zeiss is better than both Oujay and Geese if you ask me. Ward and Treck however are at their level.

Ward like Lou can contribute early despite having no long term, and Treck has a horse. What do Oujay and Geese have, other than being mediocre? Oujay has a base speed of 9 of which doubles nothing on the isles, and pitiful strength to back up his weak sword choice. He needs steel to do any real sort of damage, and it weighs him down by more than he wants, leaving him vulnerable to doubling from mercs. Geese's problem revolves more around the fact his base speed is 9 AND his promotion gain of 1 is utter crap of which screws over whatever long term he had. Even worse with Oujay though is that after all that training, he's just Echidna without the weapon ranks.

Agreed with this. I like the horse and the wyvern killing and little competition for promotion.

Well, let's take it step by step then. First off, her early contributions to the team. Having a horse is one thing, but I'd like a horse who can remain useful. Being stuck to bows does not help here. We've already got a problem there.

Luckily though, she hs Steel Bows to help her out. Issue being it weighs her down quite a bit, and with 8 base speed and being weighed down by 4, she won' be doubling much with it. However, what of her 8 base? Is it any good?

Well, her first chapter is chapter 7, which is like the worst chapter to ever start out on. Her 8 base speed doubles...Armors and soldiers. If she gets a level up and gets speed she can add steel archers to it, but with how ragile she is, I wouldn't want her attacking something that shoots back in the first place, especially if I can just kill it normally without worry. So, her doubling prospects are not shiny at all, and her offense isn't looking hot either. 5 Str with bows is not offense I envy. Her best damage prospects are on soldiers with her doing about 16 damage (about half health, that's at least Allen or one of the axers or Marcus avoiding damage), and Mages when she's using Steel (does about 9 damage, but reduces them to about 14 HP, which is again most likely able to help the above mentioned). Trouble is, that might get her doubled if she hasn't gained +1 speed and the enemy is 8 AS. Mercs in general cannot be doubled by mortal men (Rutger's not mortal), and in the least her chip is helping speed up the process of merc killing. So yeah, while she can help with normal enemies, she is not doing incredibly so, since a majority of the enemies here are cavaliers, who giggle at her trying to do damage.

However, that's not to say she might not be justifiable there. She's got high movement, which with all the houses in chapter 7, it's nice to have an extra hand help out with collecting. There are also those pesky wyverns flying about, and she has Steel Bow. Whle having shaky accuracy, she is your best bet for doing a big chunk of damage to them with her slayer effective 29 Mt, which can do up to 17-16 damage, reducing them to about half health in one shot. This is still not letting someone avoid a counter, but wyverns are such huge threats it doesn't matter. You want them dead as soon as possible, and Sue can help reduce the effrt needed to just take down 1.

But, while it can be said she can be justified a slot in chapter 7 does not guarantee she gets the levels she needs to be functional. Sue having the problem of crappy offense with bows renders her to do chip damage to help avoid counters. This along with no enemy phase really hampers how fast she can level, even despite her leveling speed. This is the main issue with her rising, is that if her leveling speed can be consistent to keep her useful after her initially slow start. Otherwise she would just be Treck with even worse combat, since she has no enemy phase.

Lilina does nearly as badly as Lugh supposedly does early on, but not content to have the worst durability on the team upon arrival, she has the worst durability in maps where enemies can double her or OHKO her. Lugh at least can start doubling with minimal effort (speedwing) and we get a decent avoider out of it. Lilina needs all the levels and resources piled on her to be marginally better than Ray is when he joins.

A speedwing is not minimal effort, it's a highly valued resource that he is not the sole benefactor of, nor is he the best benefactor by a mile. It's an option he has, but he is far from the first guy I would slap it on.

As for the whole being OHKOd thing, I do not find it an issue since neither want to be attacked in the first place. Considering it's the western Isles, I would hardly say Lou's durability is any better than Lillina's.

However, let's look at how truly close this comparison acually is. I would have a hard time believing Lou is beyond level 8 by the time it's chapter 9, so 2 chapters earlier, perhaps...7 or 6 would be reasonable for when he and Lillina meet.

Lillina Base: 16 HP, 5 Mag, 5 Skl, 4 Spd, 4 Lck, 2 Def, 7 Res

Lvl 6 Lou: 18.5 HP, 6 Mag, 7.5 Skl, 8.5 Spd, 6.75 Lck, 3.75 Def, 6.5 Res

Lou obviously wins speed, but 8 speed is hardly good. Only thing he has over Lillina is armors, and while that's to his beneft, they aren't the only enemies on the map. All soldiers from when Lillina joins onward have 0 AS due to being weighed down, and it's not like we don't already appreciate magic chip on armors. Ether she can chip so Lou gets the kill, or vice versa. As a note, javelin soldiers have 15 ATK, so she can survive them and double back. For the most part, anything that would kill Lillina would also kill Lou.

You might say that Lou has better power though, and you would be wrong. They are essentially tied, as Roy has an open C with his BB supports from his cavs, and Lillina can nab it in just 1 turn. This leaves +1 Atk, 5 hit, 2 avoid, 5 crit and 2 crit evade. Lou's wins thusly are 7 avoid and the AS to double armors, while Lillina's are 2 hit, a support with Roy that completes his boosts to make him better early on, and not needing to have had 5 levels with of exp invested into her for nearly the same performance at this point in time.

...Oh wait a minute! It's note quite the same! For you see, Lillina has a base rank of C, while Lou's got a rank of D. You get Elfire, a C rank tome, n the very chapter you recruit Lillina, and is in fact in the treasure room right before her cell. This gives her 14 magic might after her support, and generally allows her stronger chip on everything other than Armors. So while he is better against armors, she is slightly better against everything else, able to help more people avoid counters from soldiers like Rutger or Roy. It also means when enemies they both can't double start showing up, she is generally going to be reducing the effort needed to take one down more than Lou will be.

Now obviously Lou is going to be better later, I think we all can agree there. My problem is it takes way too long for Lou to start really getting good. Lillina in an odd way is somewhat more effective early on due to that 5 levels of exp being put more into my realtime fighters, and having stronger chip due to Elfire and faster leveling coupled with her absurd magic growth. Also, B rank, and being only 1 rank away from it. She probably won't need to promote in order to use them for when we really need them.

I still would say Lou's earlygame is the clencher (as the choice between Lillina and Lou for when Lillina joins is if you want a slightly more effective mage in midgame or a vastly better one way later when the rest of your army is also bound to be way stronger compared to the mages), and perhaps this is just hype one would expect from me. But I just wanted to state that early on, the resemblence in their performance once Lillina joins is more uncanny than one would think.

Also, LightxLightning Gonzales support. C Roy+anything with Gonzales beats whatever Lou's got going, which is generally nothing. I'd take a crazier Gonzo over lolEllen/Chad/Ray.

Why not?

Because for the most part, we're obviously going to use them for thieving, but it is not accurate to say anything about their combat (Chad is useless in combat, though Ashtor's starting combat is decent. This isn't really a relevent point anyways, since they have such a limited shelf life due to chest keys making their existence meaningless, and they hit their level cap far to early). One has to constantly value their thieving based on what they steal or if it's worth even justifying a slot for them. Thieves are just annoying to tier, and t would mke t far easier to just have them in a utilic tier.

[Dark Sage]

Well to be honest regarding Lugh, it's unfair to sandbag him out of a support while giving Lilina one. Also if we're going to be using him seriously, I doubt he's going to still have a D in Anima when Liina joins and I doubt he's going to be at level 6. Let's say level 7 then if we're going to be using him seriously and to be nicer to Lilina. I mean, you could do a whole lot worse deploying Ellen and she is reasonably quick and gives him a bonus. Chad might make it in Chapter 8 and possibly the Isles (he has WTA over the large amount of axers there, though he does have slot competition). You could at the very least just keep Chad at a C level and build up with Ray when you get him, though he's probably not going to be in play.

7/-- Lugh (C Ellen, C Chad): HP 19, 6.4 Mag, 8 Skl, 9 Spd, 7.1 Luk, 3.9 Def, 6.8 Res. Translates to HP 19, 12 attack with Fire, 121 Hit, 32 avoid, 9 AS, 3.9 Def (likely 4 Def), 6.8 Res (likely 7 Res)

Base Lilina: HP 16, 5 Mag, 5 Skl, 4 Spd, 4 Luk, 2 Def, 7 Res. Translates to 16 HP, 10 attack with Fire. 109 Hit, 12 avoid, 4 AS, 2 Def, 7 Res.

Yeah. Also Lilina has to deal with the fact that in Chapter 9, Pirates can walk through the water, making shielding her difficult.

All I have time for now.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Balcerzak]

Well to be honest regarding Lugh, it's unfair to sandbag him out of a support while giving Lilina one. Also if we're going to be using him seriously, I doubt he's going to still have a D in Anima when Liina joins and I doubt he's going to be at level 6. Let's say level 7 then if we're going to be using him seriously and to be nicer to Lilina. I mean, you could do a whole lot worse deploying Ellen and she is reasonably quick and gives him a bonus. Chad might make it in Chapter 8 and possibly the Isles (he has WTA over the large amount of axers there, though he does have slot competition). You could at the very least just keep Chad at a C level and build up with Ray when you get him, though he's probably not going to be in play.

7/-- Lugh (C Ellen, C Chad): HP 19, 6.4 Mag, 8 Skl, 9 Spd, 7.1 Luk, 3.9 Def, 6.8 Res. Translates to HP 19, 12 attack with Fire, 121 Hit, 32 avoid, 9 AS, 3.9 Def (likely 4 Def), 6.8 Res (likely 7 Res)

Base Lilina: HP 16, 5 Mag, 5 Skl, 4 Spd, 4 Luk, 2 Def, 7 Res. Translates to 16 HP, 10 attack with Fire. 109 Hit, 12 avoid, 4 AS, 2 Def, 7 Res.

Yeah. Also Lilina has to deal with the fact that in Chapter 9, Pirates can walk through the water, making shielding her difficult.

All I have time for now.

LOL.

There's sandbagging, and then there's the other extreme.

Lugh/Ellen takes 30 turns to reach C. That's probably 2/3rds to 3/4ths of all available turns spent from chapters 4-7 (Ch3 doesn't exist for Lugh for Supports due to recruitment position). Ellen also gets quick competition from other joining staff-users and may not be fielded in chapter 6 or 7. Lugh/Chad is slightly more viable, in that it's quicker, but supporting thieves also carries its own problems. Sure, Lugh will be working on his supports, because in a comparison it's assumed he's being used, but I doubt he's getting 100% priority treatment. Giving Lugh two supports here is absolutely massive favoritism. Lilina's support takes literally one turn. Giving her C Roy in a comparison while not giving Lugh anything isn't what I would call "unfair", it's simply how FE6 works.

Not to mention you seem to over-estimate how quickly weapon ranks grow in this game. If you're not doubling (which most things Lugh won't be), and you're not finishing (as a primary chipper, Lugh won't be getting many), you're going to need fifty combats to grow one weapon rank. That kind of exposure takes more than four chapters, I guarantee it. In all likelihood Lugh will be at D still when Lilina comes along. I also suspect you're inflating his earned experience, but I don't have a good reasonable frame of reference on-hand for efficiency. Aquilae had Lugh at level 5 going into Ch 8, GJ had him at 6, Narga had him at practically 7, Colonel M had him dead. And Ch 8 isn't very good to anyone without a pony.