FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Banning discussions in a tier list thread is one of the dumbest things I've heard. If discussing Wendy doesn't interest you, don't partake in the discussion. BOOM, look at how easy that is.

The thing is, this is not the frst time WendyvsSophia has been brought up, and every time it's "Sophia gets you a Ring", the Ring of which has next to no bearing unless you're using some mage other than Saul, and at best is just 5K for another pair of boots for some dude who most likely might have a significant impact since we should have enough gold for plentiful amounts of boots by then anyways. Sure, Wendy does nothing, but in measurement, neither does Sophia, and then we get into this circle of dumb over and over.

Banning discussion on it actually seems like a great idea, because it clogs the tier list with the world's most pointlessly empty discussion ever to be conceived in the history of the world. I would gladly have it banned, as it would promote discussion that actually has some sort of bearing. It's about as dumb as going into the FE10 list and seeing even more Meg vs Fiona discussion, as to "who is more ass?", because bottom tier seriously should just not ever matter on anything. Ever.

Gawddammit.

The guiding ring and Sophia topic has been discussed a lot before, probably actually the last time we talked about Wendy and Sophia. I remember there being one pretty hefty discussion on what constituted as actions that should be credited to units, like stealing, seizing, etc. It's been talked about a few times, but not in the really recent past.

Problem being it's still the same argument, and it will always BE the same argument, and the discussion of it goes no-fucking-where and only serves to clog the tier like a toilet.

I'd probably say that Dorothy>Karel still. Yeah, Karel can equip Durandal and kill Mamkutes and shit in his last chapter, but I don't really know if that helps me more when that chapter is easy compared to like CH7, where Dorothy's chip against Wyverns probably helps me more seeing as how at that point the enemies are pretty ridiculous compared to our own units.

Forced deployment in chapter 6, where she has the speed to double the soldiers there (with Iron OR Steel no less) for chip significant enough to help some units avoid counters, thus doing her job on a satisfactory level. Chapter 7, we got wyverns. Granted we got Sue, but Dorothy can help as well. There is also soldiers going to the throne of said map as well.

Chapter 8 has a lot of soldiers, but her move is a huge factor there. Really, Dorothy's just outclassed by Sue (and is bad outside of loldier chip), but she at least has 1 solid chapter of utility where she's forced to participate in regardless of choice. In comparison, to even recruit him you gotta field Bartre (who's more than likely below par by this point) or Fir (who not only might not get in the team in the first place, but probably has better things to be doing than seeing her uncle), and is essentially a rather average unit that's overshadowed by your massive army of mega-mounts and Booted thugs (speaking of which, I'd like to not save a good pair of boots for 2 chapters just for 1 average dude).

Notto say Karel sucks, just he's vastly overshadowed on jointime and thus doesn't have much use. Dorothy can at least claim she helps people avoid counters in chapter 6.

[frat_tastic]

Duh its not the first time Wendy and Sophia have been brought up. Topics get brought up multiple times. People's concept of what constitutes tier positions change over time, if topics never got brought up multiple times the tier list would be static and never change to reflect the current thoughts of the community building it.

Banning discussion that has an impact on the tier list is stupid. The bottom tiers exist and just because those units suck doesn't mean we shouldn't try and accurately tier them. If we are trying to make a complete and accurate tier list, discussion on the bottom tier units has to happen. If that topic doesn't interest you, don't partake in the discussion. Its simple. I hardly think this topic has been "clogged" with discussion over this anyway.

I would also say that defining what actions units are given credit for would be a pretty important thing to make clear to everyone. If its not clear, that's probably why Sophia and her guiding ring keep popping up in discussion.

Agreed on Dorothy and Karel.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

What impact does Wendy vs. Sophia actually have though? This is why on the FE12 tier list, I make it explicitly clear that Bottom Tier is not ordered. Anyone shitty enough to make it into the bottom cut of fuckuseless morons is not ever going to be used seriously enough for their placement to matter, and comparing two equally useless units is a waste of time when the end result is pointless.

(if it wasn't clear i am advocating for an unordered bottom tier here as well)

Edited July 23, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[frat_tastic]

I don't see the point of NOT ordering bottom tier. Yes, they suck. No, they won't really be used in an efficient playthrough. That doesn't mean we can't decide who of the two (or however many the applicable list may have in bottom tier) is better. If the tier list completely and accurately reflects the ranking of ALL units in an efficient playthrough, it doesn't make sense to ignore the bad characters. It's just about figuring out what uses they have in an efficient playthrough and which of those uses is more beneficial to us.

Edited July 23, 2011 by frat_tastic

[Anouleth]

It's just about figuring out what uses they have in an efficient playthrough and which of those uses is more beneficial to us.

The problem is that it's often "none" (I don't think that's quite true in Sophia's case since even Sleeptanking has some benefit, but I can think of many cases where it is true).

[frat_tastic]

Thus she is in bottom tier. Because she contributes extremely little to an efficient playthrough. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't compare her to other units who offer similar amounts and decide who goes higher on the list. For people who don't want to debate about low tier character, don't. People who do have an interest in coming up with an accurate ranking of those units can discuss that, and you can discuss what interests you. Nothing says you HAVE to participate in every discussion in the tier list.

[Radiant Dragon]

While I agree with frat_tastic, I will say this: Does anyone have any problems with Sophia > Wendy? No? Then let's move on with our lives.

[-Cynthia-]

Why would we unorder Bottom tier? That just makes no sense whatsoever, if we're not going to tier characters properly we might as well leave them off the list entirely.

Thoughts on Ilia!Zeiss's position? I posted that comparison a while back, I think he could go above Garret, possibly above Bartre.

Edited July 23, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Seven Deadly Sins]

We are tiering them. We're saying they're Bottom Tier, and that they have no real chance of providing beneficial utility. Why should we give a shit which permutation of 0 is worse than which other permutation of 0? It just wastes time for an end result that actually doesn't matter to anyone. Does anyone ever go in and say "Hmm, which should I use, Sophia or Wendy?" Nope, nobody actually gives a shit which terrible bottom-tier character is better for any practical purpose.

[Lord Raven]

Fuck off and don't argue about them then. Is that not a hard concept to understand? Is it so hard to not stick your nose in other peoples shit when they're arguing tiers of characters you don't care about? You don't have to argue shit. fyi *I* give a shit so your last sentence is completely wrong.

Well the thing is, we just finished moving Dorothy over Karel maybe a week ago.

You mean your one post that still wreaks of the exactly same fallacy that my post spent time countering? Let's also say something in terms of how the FE7 tier list works; Geitz is in Upper Mid because despite his joining condition his existence afterwards results in efficiency (maybe not increased but still a good amount nonetheless).

Let me find the exact post that "finished moving dorothy over karel":

Why is Karel above Dorothy? His availability is ridiculously bad, and his join map can't even count much to his credit because it's not a free slot, in that we have to take Fir or Bartre. If Fir is untrained we could just be substituting her spot and taking any other quality combat unit. If Fir is trained, she'll compete with him for deployment in final. (They both double, obviously, neither will OHKO mamkutes with Durandal, and both are 2HKO'd back. In other words their performance is completely identical in all ways that matter.)

Dorothy has useful circumstances in her joining chapter, and joins at a time where any chip you can get on your team is appreciated. Sure she lacks a pony like Sue, and sure Archers get a hard time on efficiency lists, but I would think her contributions anywhere one would deploy her are more positive than anything Karel brings to the table.

Not only does the first point contradict a point that is assumed and applied to another tier list on this very forum. And on top of the fact that this does nothing to take care of any points I brought up regarding the "Comparison" thing. "Sure it's just as good and we have another user anyway" is a bullshit argument in terms of a tier list; that's not too far off from saying anything in the bottom of High is a shitty offensive unit because Alan and Lance are just that much better, and Zealot is shit because frankly Marcus does his job better. No. That's stupid as fuck.

If ease of recruitment were a factor in tier lists, then Fir and Shin would be a bitch to recruit. In fact, so is Douglas. So is Juuno cause it requires you to take Zealot late game. In fact, so does Juuno in general because that means you have to level your fliers more than your Bowmen. Fuck, Cath requires you to talk to her like 3 times throughout the course of an efficient playthrough. Bartre even suffers from the same downside of a "potentially untrained Fir," and Gonzales AND Barret have the downside of being recruited by Lilina. If you're going to factor in this "difficulty of recruitment" bullshit then you may as well bump every single unit you have to talk to down.

And if you're going to say that you may as well bump her above Wolt because he is doing 6-7 in chip every single time he attacks. Against soldiers he doubles but he doesn't have the move to keep up with Alan/Lance/Marcus at all nor does he have ANY sort of quality with enemy phase. The same is a problem with Dorothy except she's deployed in a chapter where she can chip stupider enemies (but still get VERY easily 3HKO'd, at best).

Karel doesn't just "chip," and he may be frail but Wyverns aren't the only thing he's up against in that chapter. The only reason Wyverns even beat him in that chapter are because of WTA. Against Mamkutes most characters get 3HKO'd as is so any amount of doubling up that they do can apply to any single unit that exists in that chapter. I bet they'd have something like 40-42 attack at that point and not many of your own characters even break 20 defense, by the way, so they will be doing at least 20 damage to each and every unit. You can't possibly bring that up against Karel when it applies to every other unit in the game. As for the Durandal thing, 21 or 22 (most likely 21) Strength is actually on par or better with Fir and Rutger's average at that point, as well, so if you're going to compare -- Karel's Attack actually beats theirs out.

How does he barely OHKO? With Durandal (51 effective Mt + 25-27 Str = 76+ Atk) definitely OHKOs especially considering Karel has 20-22 AS at that point (and Mamkutes hit 2 or 3 points below the teens LOL). If not, then get a fuckin Wyrmslayer; that's 50-52 attack against 23 Defense, doubling with a 30% critical hit rate. That's not "not OHKOing" in the slightest. 2HKO yes, but that's if you just give him a Wyrmslayer; who competes with him for Durandal, exactly? Fir and Rutger don't have as much Strength and all 3 have the AS to double, Dieck would probably want to use Armads or something and if not then he's an equally good recipient. Alan and Lance? Maybe. But once again, Karel is more likely to effectively deal with these Mamkute bitches than Dorothy, for one. For another, one Angelic Robe and he's out of 2HKO range and into 3HKO range like normal people. 40-42. 26x2 = 52, one angelic robe will bring him to 53 HP and voila, no more 3HKO! And bear in mind, this is just one Angelic Robe.

Dorothy does chip and nothing more. She brings each soldier down to 17 HP, pretty low even still (Karel's offense leaves a fuckin dent in the late game even if he's just a Swordmaster -- 23 AS and 20 Str is not to be trifled with). She gets hit very hard by the Javelin dudes who do like 9 damage to her. Fucking hell, the L9 Soldiers do something ridiculous like 13 damage to her, and the Mages 2HKO her. She doesn't have durability against anything, and those are the only things outside of Knights and Mercenaries she can really do significant damage to. Yes, there Iron and Steel Lance Soldiers, but after the ones nearby they all switch back to Javelin and attack your primary units that aren't Dorothy. Her usefulness is more or less boned at this point, and after the first couple turns you're more likely to want to bum rush the chapter somehow as opposed to getting some stupid Archer to do some chip.

In fact, you'd more likely want to bumrush with Alan, Lance, and Marcus/Zealot in the early game chapters than get Wolt to chip. Karel can help with this bumrushing and only needs one level up and an Angelic Robe to actually fight against Mamkutes in the endgame. Not saying he's any bit as good as better units (wow, Department of Redundancy Department) but he deserves way more credit than fucking Wolt, Dorothy, and Bors. The reason I'm actually fucking arguing in favor of Karel is that Karel can actually do lots of shit despite his availability. Some weak argument about his joining being kinda tough and being generally outclassed is stupid as fuck and goes against most tier standards that I've seen -- recently -- on SF of all places.

I even argued Bors a page back and nobody listened. Sophia's better at chip in the chapter after she joins and Sophia fucking sucks, also considering Bors' chip is only different from Wendy's in damage and not accuracy. Though, I guess that only really concludes Bors > Wendy because Bors can hit something with an Iron Lance and live (unlike Wendy, who is just barely alive after attacking with an Iron Lance) and I guess Sophia's reamed forever. The chip means absolutely nothing in terms of the argument; Sophia getting you that guiding ring is comparable to Thief utility with Chests (except only one, so she's still bottom tier), considering it actually nets you 5K spendable Gold (you get Silver Card in the same chapter) which is more important than attacking one or two enemies every chapter with low accuracy and not very good damage. Sophia can do that too with more frailty but better 2-range/damage (relative damage is worse though) LOL so I mean it's guiding ring vs... whatever Bors has going for him. I even think Dorothy and Wolt are better than Bors because they chip from a distance and Dorothy can at least be used against a couple Wyverns to significantly make that mess easier. (She has like 34 attack or 31 or something against those monsters, man, and probably ends up doing damage in the 20s with a Steel Bow).

(and yes I did just gain the balls to say that Rutger and Fir are worse than Karel against endgame Mamkutes, Karel has more Str but honestly they'll all be either 3HKOing at equal rates or doing a complete OHKO at either equal rates or slightly lower rates [in favor of Karel])

I could even push Karel as high as below Hugh in both tier lists in their respective routes, but it's late and I have to be up in an hour and a half because my flight takes off at 7am.

And the primary point? You judge someone's quality based on how they act upon deployment from the moment they join onwards, and even little spurts after that initial point. You don't judge it based on the fact that they're not being deployed at all and the fact that they suck dick compared to someone else. That's fuckin bullshit.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Rewjeo]

We are tiering them. We're saying they're Bottom Tier, and that they have no real chance of providing beneficial utility. Why should we give a shit which permutation of 0 is worse than which other permutation of 0? It just wastes time for an end result that actually doesn't matter to anyone. Does anyone ever go in and say "Hmm, which should I use, Sophia or Wendy?" Nope, nobody actually gives a shit which terrible bottom-tier character is better for any practical purpose.

There is quite a difference between this bottom tier and FE12's, though. In FE12 Lunatic there is a huge list of useless characters and figuring which is more or less so is very different from comparing two crappy units.

Also, it clearly matters to someone and really I don't see how anything about tier lists matters that much to people.

[-Cynthia-]

We are tiering them. We're saying they're Bottom Tier, and that they have no real chance of providing beneficial utility. Why should we give a shit which permutation of 0 is worse than which other permutation of 0? It just wastes time for an end result that actually doesn't matter to anyone. Does anyone ever go in and say "Hmm, which should I use, Sophia or Wendy?" Nope, nobody actually gives a shit which terrible bottom-tier character is better for any practical purpose.

Tier lists are not necessarily a guide of who to use regardless, Marcus's position doesn't indicate "we should probably drop him by Chapter 13 if not sooner."

Different characters have differences in performance, bottom tier or not, and neglecting these differences because allegedly "no one gives a shit" is lazy and stupid. Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone. Arguably the entire tier list is pointless anyway, but it's not up to you to arbitrarily decide which parts do and do not matter.

[Lord Raven]

Then why argue tier lists? Just make a chapter by chapter guide of how to play efficiently and to hell with tier lists. We may as well debate about that because not only is that universally more productive but it is far more helpful.

There is quite a difference between this bottom tier and FE12's, though. In FE12 Lunatic there is a huge list of useless characters and figuring which is more or less so is very different from comparing two crappy units.

Then if nobody's fuckin willing to argue the Bottom tiers, drop the Bottom tiers entirely. If you're going to trivialize arguments by "well, it's bottom tier anyway who cares" then don't even fucking post. That's the entire point of what we're trying to say.

Also, Dayan's in Low/Bottom and guess what? He can snipe off Wyverns extremely effectively. Some low tiers are plenty viable to argue about.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Rewjeo]

Then if nobody's fuckin willing to argue the Bottom tiers, drop the Bottom tiers entirely. If you're going to trivialize arguments by "well, it's bottom tier anyway who cares" then don't even fucking post. That's the entire point of what we're trying to say.

Okay, I won't take your side?

[Lord Raven]

smh i'm sorry i completely misread what you said, whoops :( its been a rather long day...

Edited July 23, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Aethereal]

Not only does the first point contradict a point that is assumed and applied to another tier list on this very forum. And on top of the fact that this does nothing to take care of any points I brought up regarding the "Comparison" thing. "Sure it's just as good and we have another user anyway" is a bullshit argument in terms of a tier list; that's not too far off from saying anything in the bottom of High is a shitty offensive unit because Alan and Lance are just that much better, and Zealot is shit because frankly Marcus does his job better. No. That's stupid as fuck.

If ease of recruitment were a factor in tier lists, then Fir and Shin would be a bitch to recruit. In fact, so is Douglas. So is Juuno cause it requires you to take Zealot late game. In fact, so does Juuno in general because that means you have to level your fliers more than your Bowmen. Fuck, Cath requires you to talk to her like 3 times throughout the course of an efficient playthrough. Bartre even suffers from the same downside of a "potentially untrained Fir," and Gonzales AND Barret have the downside of being recruited by Lilina. If you're going to factor in this "difficulty of recruitment" bullshit then you may as well bump every single unit you have to talk to down.

Karel doesn't just "chip," and he may be frail but Wyverns aren't the only thing he's up against in that chapter. The only reason Wyverns even beat him in that chapter are because of WTA. Against Mamkutes most characters get 3HKO'd as is so any amount of doubling up that they do can apply to any single unit that exists in that chapter. I bet they'd have something like 40-42 attack at that point and not many of your own characters even break 20 defense, by the way, so they will be doing at least 20 damage to each and every unit. You can't possibly bring that up against Karel when it applies to every other unit in the game. As for the Durandal thing, 21 or 22 (most likely 21) Strength is actually on par or better with Fir and Rutger's average at that point, as well, so if you're going to compare -- Karel's Attack actually beats theirs out.

How does he barely OHKO? With Durandal (51 effective Mt + 25-27 Str = 76+ Atk) definitely OHKOs especially considering Karel has 20-22 AS at that point (and Mamkutes hit 2 or 3 points below the teens LOL). If not, then get a fuckin Wyrmslayer; that's 50-52 attack against 23 Defense, doubling with a 30% critical hit rate. That's not "not OHKOing" in the slightest. 2HKO yes, but that's if you just give him a Wyrmslayer; who competes with him for Durandal, exactly? Fir and Rutger don't have as much Strength and all 3 have the AS to double, Dieck would probably want to use Armads or something and if not then he's an equally good recipient. Alan and Lance? Maybe. But once again, Karel is more likely to effectively deal with these Mamkute bitches than Dorothy, for one. For another, one Angelic Robe and he's out of 2HKO range and into 3HKO range like normal people. 40-42. 26x2 = 52, one angelic robe will bring him to 53 HP and voila, no more 3HKO! And bear in mind, this is just one Angelic Robe.

I think that his point was more along the lines of: Karel has, at most, 2 chapters where he is useful, and it's a stretch to call him 'useful' in more than 1. If you train Fir, great, he's useful in Chapter 23, and he adds something to the table. However, if you have trained Fir, he's completely superfluous in Chapter 24. I suppose you CAN trade Durandal around, but generally, you've got one Durandal user to kill Mamkutes in Ch. 24, and with a trained Fir, the results are exactly the same wether you use him or Fir. Choosing between the two nets no real difference, which is why it's hard to say the comparison argument singles out Karel. It's not that no one else compares units, it's that you can have two bow users chip, and they're still completing their role. They still add something, even if it is just chipping. However, if Karel's role is to kill mamkutes with Durandal, you choose between him and Fir if you've trained Fir, and the difference means basically nothing. As in: Karel and Fir will ORKO with Durandal, will have a similar chance at critting, or will get 2RKO'd. Karel or Fir having more a point or two more defense/attack/speed/skill/whatever than the other is all pretty pointless to their overall performance: you get the same results either way. I know you later went on to say that you could throw him an Angelic Robe and he'd be 3HKO'd, and that's a positive I suppose, but I think you'd rather give some one else boots for 4 chapters, including some where boots can save you multiple turns, than give him a Robe so he can be useful in 2 chapters instead of 1. Does he save you any turns in Chapter 24, or even make it easier? I don't think so.

On the other hand, if you bring Fir untrained instead of some one else to Chapter 23, Karel is taking up a combat unit's spot. Maybe he's better than your last of the line combat unit, totally willing to agree to that. But he still takes their spot, and it detracts, at least somewhat, from his value. In chapter 24, without a strong trained Durandal user, like Fir might have been, he can completely have value. It's a bit of a pain to ferry him/warp him a ton, but it's possible, I agree. And you probably don't want to waste 2 chapters of boots use, so you'd have tried to give your boots to some one else beforehand. As in, he definitely needs to be ferried.

Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't see how he nets you any real positives besides being another combat unit in Ch. 23, which he does okay I suppose, but he does so potentially at the cost of another combat unit.

[dondon151]

I don't really find any issues with bringing along characters to recruit other characters in this game because you get like 12+ unit slots that are not named Roy in every map.

Also, I'd prefer not to waste my time arguing about bottom tier characters. Idealistically, every character in this game deserves equal treatment in discussion, but it's just not practically worth it. Any person playing this game would care more about which of Tate and Niime are better than which of Wendy and Sophia are better.

Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't see how he nets you any real positives besides being another combat unit in Ch. 23, which he does okay I suppose, but he does so potentially at the cost of another combat unit.

If you really want to take this logic to the extreme, Dorothy has no net utility outside of her free deployment in chapter 6, and even then all she really does is chip at a mercenary.

Edited July 23, 2011 by dondon151

[Janissary]

Not mention that anyone other that core 14-16 characters are essentially useless in that philosophy.

[Dark Sage]

Different characters have differences in performance, bottom tier or not, and neglecting these differences because allegedly "no one gives a shit" is lazy and stupid. Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone. Arguably the entire tier list is pointless anyway, but it's not up to you to arbitrarily decide which parts do and do not matter.

Normally, I'd agree, but in this case, I have to side with Colonel M on this one.

See here's the thing. Wendy vs Sophia has been argued before. In fact, it was argued over a month ago. You know what the difference between the arguments from the then and the arguments from now are? There is not difference. They're the exact same arguments, with some of the debaters swapped out for some other fellow. And really, both arguments have such compelling sides over whose worse that I doubt most people give a shit about who's higher (personally, I think Sophia>Wendy but eh).

Basically it's like arguing whether applying a sledgehammer repeatedly to your gonads is better than being set on fire. They're both so harmful that any small positives of utility that both have are nearly impossible to tell or tier correctly. For example, how much weight do we put on the guiding ring that Sophia gets? Would we ignore her other flaws or is it truly better than Wendy existing longer? How much weight should we put on Wendy's availability over Sophia? How many levels would she have gained to make a combat comparison over who fails harder? Would we place negative utility one Wendy? She's the only character in FE that is possibly worse than an empty slot. How could we say that this is better than whatever the hell Sophia does? Or back to the guiding ring example, should we credit Sophia with that at all?

Basically there's so many factors and so much weight over so very little that the discussion really does become worthless. Their "perks" are completely subjective in how they're weighed, so it's damn near impossible to get an accurate comparison between them.

On another note, how doritos would Ray be for the Angelic Robe?

[Salad Utensil]

On another note, how doritos would Ray be for the Angelic Robe?

Considering you can buy them in chapter 16 (and conveniently his promotion item), you have a silver card, 'Secret Shop' isn't too out of the way since you have to recruit Zeiss anyway, and you get a ridiculous amount of money in this game pretty easily I'd say there's minimal harm in it. He's also solid enough to be assumed to be used seriously and not just weighed in his "free" chapter.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Toothache]

Ray starts with 7 AS with Nosferatu, which is what I assume you plan to use if you're giving him a Robe. There's also the Ch13 Body Ring to negate the 2 AS drop, but that's a resource that can best be used elsewhere. Other than the Myrmidons, he really doesn't have to fear getting doubled by many enemies from 12x (he won't see any combat in ch12), so he can Nosfertank - but the hit rate is quite shaky with that. He'll get doubled pretty quickly if he doesn't start gaining Speed though.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Toothache

[dondon151]

He wouldn't be a bad choice. Angelic Robes don't tend to be the same kind of dealbreakers as Energy Rings or Speedwings, so they don't often have a "best" unit associated with them. Probably 1 or 2 of the ones that are obtainable in the game are better off sold for Boots in chapter 21, but I can definitely see a perk to giving Niime an Angelic Robe in Ilia route (it lets her survive falcoknights and gain tons of dark WEXP), for example. I'm not entirely sure that Ray actually needs one, though.

And yeah, Ray's accuracy leaves much to be desired. I wouldn't attempt tanking with Nosferatu at all until he promotes, and Niime tends to be better at it. A generously estimate 14/6 Ray has 14 less hit with Nosferatu than base Niime, and Niime's accuracy against dodgier enemies like mercenaries is just barely cutting it (around 75-80 displayed in chapter 20).

Edited July 23, 2011 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

Normally, I'd agree, but in this case, I have to side with Colonel M on this one.

See here's the thing. Wendy vs Sophia has been argued before. In fact, it was argued over a month ago. You know what the difference between the arguments from the then and the arguments from now are? There is not difference. They're the exact same arguments, with some of the debaters swapped out for some other fellow. And really, both arguments have such compelling sides over whose worse that I doubt most people give a shit about who's higher (personally, I think Sophia>Wendy but eh).

Basically it's like arguing whether applying a sledgehammer repeatedly to your gonads is better than being set on fire. They're both so harmful that any small positives of utility that both have are nearly impossible to tell or tier correctly. For example, how much weight do we put on the guiding ring that Sophia gets? Would we ignore her other flaws or is it truly better than Wendy existing longer? How much weight should we put on Wendy's availability over Sophia? How many levels would she have gained to make a combat comparison over who fails harder? Would we place negative utility one Wendy? She's the only character in FE that is possibly worse than an empty slot. How could we say that this is better than whatever the hell Sophia does? Or back to the guiding ring example, should we credit Sophia with that at all?

Basically there's so many factors and so much weight over so very little that the discussion really does become worthless. Their "perks" are completely subjective in how they're weighed, so it's damn near impossible to get an accurate comparison between them.

The Sophia Guiding Ring business is important for her positioning relative to other characters though, not just Sophia>Wendy (which I think just about everyone agrees on). The Colonel's last post seems to indicate that Sophia isn't credited with the Ring though, so that wraps that up. Leaving Bottom tier unordered is an unacceptable solution in any case which was my point.

[Janissary]

Why don't we just make a Wendy vs. Sophia tier?

[Lord Raven]

*snip*

I've read your post and I refuse to read and acknowledge your points until you've done the same for me. You have not only evaded the points I brought up (the FE6/FE7 efficiency tier lists and the fact that they conflict in some of their requirements/assumptions/etc) but you brought up the same points I countered and didn't counter any of mine.

Sophia vs Wendy can be banned if anyone cares, its pretty obvious Sophia is a slight bit better but they're both equally extremely useless.