FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[Mekkah]

From all the "should there really be a tier gap between x and y" posts I saw in the old one, I think FE7 might not even need to stick to the usual formating of Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom. FE7 is in the category of FE8 and FE9: rather easy games with rather incompetent enemies compared to the cast (except the first couple chapters), so a difference in combat performance matters very little after a while. In such games, availability is often the key to climbing the list. There's very few characters that actually have negative profit when being fielded, other than maybe Wil...and Wil can still be argued up. For example, "is Wil's chip damage for x more chapters really a tier below Farina's contributions for only Ch25-F" is a perfectly legit question.

Or for a more recently discussed issue, take the 3 tier 1 mages (Erk, Canas, Lucius). I don't think there should be a tier gap between them. So where do they go? Are they a tier up on Pent? The same tier? What about them compared to units like Guy and Eliwood, who have slight availability wins, and in Eliwood's case a large durability win, but lack of 1~2 range/staves.

[CATS]

The game being easy like that just de-values availability if anything. While it makes it easier to not have negative profit, if everyone is equal then still no one has positive, and it also de-values the performance of the units that are actually good and thus their contributions during earlier chapters when they have availability wins.

[grandjackal]

Well, if we're blasting through Lyn's mode, I question how the hell Serra is above Lucius by an entire tier.

Why?

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/average/serra.html

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/average/lucius.html

I dunno, I have to wonder. Lucius with his one Light tome in Lyn's mode could be quite capable of gaining 3-4 levels thanks to combat. Serra with her heals is rather dependent. Do the enemies hit? Do they even do damage? Is she nearby? Considering the fail that is Lyn enemies, getting hurt is almost accidental. Also consider how small these chapters are, and how long it takes to beat them. She can't exactly be gaining a level every chapter if it takes her 9-10 heal uses to get a level, and the chapter only takes 5 turns. This is also implying if someone gets hurt every turn, which is not garunteed. Lyn's mode, at best I see her getting 2-3 levels.

She has a 5 chapter lead on Lucius to get her stats. Earlygame Hector, it's pretty safe to assume someone's going to get hurt every turn, but then there's the question of how often can you let her get near the front lines? Even with healing, you have to think about over the shoulder targeting from hand axers, javelins and archers, of which earlygame has a fair amount (the chapter before Merlinus comes to mind), or when you have very few units to protect her (the chapter you meet Eliwood and co., you have 3 people one being a thief, there are pegasi about). So while the chapters are longer, I could still assume she might not be healing every turn. If these chapters take little more than 7 turns, even if she were healing every turn, this would be 3.5 levels before Lucius joins. At absolute best she has a level lead of 1. Otherwise, it's safe to assume that both are either at equal level, or even Lucius having a level lead of 1.

Now the reason I posted the averages is because look at 10/1 Serra. Now look at base Lucius. Her only real win is Luck and 2 AS, since I doubt her "superior durability" would be the difference between 2 and 3RKO. Then, with what I said in mind, think about who gets to level 10 faster. It's no doubt Lucius. He promtoes, he gets C staffs, and is basically superior outside of Luck. That WOULD be a case, if Raven wasn't around to support him. Why? 10 turns for C, I'm pretty sure 2 crit evade solves plenty of issues. Serra on the other hand is shit out of luck with her support speeds. Pretty much everyone has faster supports with units they'd function better with. Don't even think about saying they'd never be together, I couldn't imagine a better unit pair. Raven's hax, but even he has to deal with swords. By this, I mean he always has to take a counter when he's attacking unless he crits for the ORKO. Lucius with his magical damage can chip for that (outside of crit kill) and Raven can kill without the counter, and also be in front of Lucius to defend him. Whatever Raven doesn't kill, Lucius can help mop up.

I suppose what I'm saying is earlygame healing can't possibly outdo having basically every other advantage stacked against her outside of Luck, which his actually existing support fixes. Why even keep Serra around when you have Priscilla and whatever mage you're promoting early? At least when Lucius promotes, he suddenly ends up having C staffs, which if anything further reduces the need of Serra. What does she have over every other mage outside of earlygame healing? Canas has existing durability and a stronger (or at least more versatile) weapon type, lolErk, I just showed Lucius, and Priscilla's got her beat in move. Is there any reason I shouldn't dump off my team once I get that first ring? 10 chapters of usability I suppose is nice, but then again Lucius has basically the rest of the game.

[Inui]

Serra should be that high. Lucius and his loltastic durability and Serra with her huge level lead disagree with you. If Priscilla heals every single turn possible with Mend in ranked, she is level 7.5 when Canas joins in 17x, while Serra's going to be hovering around level 15. That's huge. Serra's way better than her in both ranked and efficient play due to this. Priscilla is pretty overrated. Lucius will be around level 10 at this time. Yeah, Serra's better.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Inui

[grandjackal]

Serra should be that high. Lucius and his loltastic durability and Serra with her huge level lead disagree with you. If Priscilla heals every single turn possible with Mend in ranked, she is level 7.5 when Canas joins in 17x, while Serra's going to be hovering around level 15. That's huge. Serra's way better than her in both ranked and efficient play due to this. Priscilla is pretty overrated. Lucius will be around level 10 at this time. Yeah, Serra's better.

1. Priscilla's Mend staff is the only Mend staff you have until Canas's chapter.

2. Mend gives 240 EXP total, which would get Priscilla to level 5. No idea where you got level 7, and I'd love to see you pry it from her hands.

3. By what sorcery did you get Serra to level 15 by Canas's chapter when all you got is heal staffs?

That's 5 chapters between her jointime and Lucius. Even if you were healing every turn for the average of 7 turns a chapter, that's 385 exp, which gets her to level...4. Even if I were to ad Lyn's 5 chapters (much shorter, Lyn enemies fail enough that you most certainly will not be healing every turn), that would only be level 8. Considering after Lyn's mode Lucius could be level 6, along with leveling faster due to combat exp and being quite underleveled compared to the pirates in Badon, I could see Lucius getting to that ring first. Even considering though, if we went into Badon now, at best she'd be level 9, assuming she's been healing every single turn for all of her existence (an existence she has to share with Priscilla eventually). Tell me where the hell you got an extra six levels without abusing SOMETHING. This isn't ranked where you can just sort of drain out extra turns in Lyn's mode to abuse Nils and Serra's healing along with a bit of Lundgren, what you described is just flat out mathmatically impossible in an efficiency run, even if the Mend staff fell into her hands.

Earlygame healing as far as I can see is all she has.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Florete]

Serra should be that high. Lucius and his loltastic durability and Serra with her huge level lead disagree with you. If Priscilla heals every single turn possible with Mend in ranked, she is level 7.5 when Canas joins in 17x, while Serra's going to be hovering around level 15. That's huge. Serra's way better than her in both ranked and efficient play due to this. Priscilla is pretty overrated. Lucius will be around level 10 at this time. Yeah, Serra's better.

Level 15? This isn't ranked, buddy. We don't have all however many turns of LHM Tactics to spend heal-spamming Serra. In efficient play, Serra will probably be lucky to come out of LHM at level 5 since we actually want to clear maps fast now and she won't always be getting Nils, nor will she always have someone to heal.

Perfectly arguable in ranked, not so lucky here.

[grandjackal]

Let's also compare that durability lead...

10/1 Serra- 24.5 HP, 7.5 Mag, 9.7 Skill, 12.6 Speed, 11.4 Luck, 5.35 Def, 11.95 Res. D Light, B Staffs. 23 Hit, 35 Avoid, 4 crit

10/1 Lucius- 23.85 HP, 13.2 Mag, 10.5 Skill, 12.8 Speed, 3.4 Luck, 4.7 Def, 12.2 Res. B Light, C Staffs. 21 hit, 27 Avoid, 5 Crit

I doubt 1 HP and 1 Def (which Lucius has a hefty decimal advantage, so quite often they'll actually tie) will make or break a 2-3RKO, and I doubt 8 avoid is a big deal. All there is is the huge luck lead, which all Lucius has to do is get C Raven (sorry, it's 80 not 60, takes 17 turns rather than 10. Still, at worst, 3 chapters) to make it essentially vanish.

On the other hand, look at the whopping 6 might lead he has on her. That's 12 more damage per round of combat, do I even need to explain how badly that is whipping her ass?

In fact, I just looked at Con. Promoted, Serra's got 5, Lucius has 7. Lightning weighs 6, Serra's losing AS just on the basic tome. So much for D Light, because Shine weighs 8, so now she would only have 9 AS to Lucius's 11. Hell, Lucius does 4x2 more damage with Lightning than she does with Shine (Lighting has 4 might to Shine's 6).

Do I even need to go on? I would compare stats to chapter 19 enemies, but they don't seem to be there. Either way at best, the difference is Lucius is hitting harder. Some could say the coming physic staffs are her advantage as they're B staffs. However, it takes 50 points to get to C-B, but Heal alone is 2 WEXP so rather it's 25. Mend, it's 17 with it's 3 WEXP (I don't even need to go through a whole Mend staff?). This isn't counting things like Unlock or Torch which is 5 WEXP a use (I would have brought them up, but the guides seem to claim you can't actually get them for Dread Isle or Dragon's Gate). Either way, Lucius isn't exactly waiting a long time. Between the end of Pirate Ship and the end of Dragon's Gate when I'm likely to get the secret shops, that's basically 3 chapters I can build Lucius's staff rank. Could easily have B by then, or be close enough.

I fail to see how earlygame healing and at best a chapter of physic outdoes basically being completely superior.

[Inui]

The dick. It is coming.

1. Priscilla's Mend staff is the only Mend staff you have until Canas's chapter.

And? Who cares? That's not even relevant to my point.

2. Mend gives 240 EXP total, which would get Priscilla to level 5. No idea where you got level 7, and I'd love to see you pry it from her hands.

Well, shit. It looks like Priscilla's level is even lower than I suggested. If Priscilla heals every single turn with Mend and you shave off 0 turns based on the Tactics requirements, she's level 7.5. Efficiency? Mend breaks and you don't have another? Priscilla's even lower now, making her downright shit. When does this girl even promote, if ever?

The gap between her and Serra is astronomical if you play LHM.

3. By what sorcery did you get Serra to level 15 by Canas's chapter when all you got is heal staffs?

That's 5 chapters between her jointime and Lucius. Even if you were healing every turn for the average of 7 turns a chapter, that's 385 exp, which gets her to level...4. Even if I were to ad Lyn's 5 chapters (much shorter, Lyn enemies fail enough that you most certainly will not be healing every turn), that would only be level 8. Considering after Lyn's mode Lucius could be level 6, along with leveling faster due to combat exp and being quite underleveled compared to the pirates in Badon, I could see Lucius getting to that ring first. Even considering though, if we went into Badon now, at best she'd be level 9, assuming she's been healing every single turn for all of her existence (an existence she has to share with Priscilla eventually). Tell me where the hell you got an extra six levels without abusing SOMETHING. This isn't ranked where you can just sort of drain out extra turns in Lyn's mode to abuse Nils and Serra's healing along with a bit of Lundgren, what you described is just flat out mathmatically impossible in an efficiency run, even if the Mend staff fell into her hands.

Earlygame healing as far as I can see is all she has.

Let's also compare that durability lead...

10/1 Serra- 24.5 HP, 7.5 Mag, 9.7 Skill, 12.6 Speed, 11.4 Luck, 5.35 Def, 11.95 Res. D Light, B Staffs. 23 Hit, 35 Avoid, 4 crit

10/1 Lucius- 23.85 HP, 13.2 Mag, 10.5 Skill, 12.8 Speed, 3.4 Luck, 4.7 Def, 12.2 Res. B Light, C Staffs. 21 hit, 27 Avoid, 5 Crit

I doubt 1 HP and 1 Def (which Lucius has a hefty decimal advantage, so quite often they'll actually tie) will make or break a 2-3RKO, and I doubt 8 avoid is a big deal. All there is is the huge luck lead, which all Lucius has to do is get C Raven (sorry, it's 80 not 60, takes 17 turns rather than 10. Still, at worst, 3 chapters) to make it essentially vanish.

On the other hand, look at the whopping 6 might lead he has on her. That's 12 more damage per round of combat, do I even need to explain how badly that is whipping her ass?

In fact, I just looked at Con. Promoted, Serra's got 5, Lucius has 7. Lightning weighs 6, Serra's losing AS just on the basic tome. So much for D Light, because Shine weighs 8, so now she would only have 9 AS to Lucius's 11. Hell, Lucius does 4x2 more damage with Lightning than she does with Shine (Lighting has 4 might to Shine's 6).

Do I even need to go on? I would compare stats to chapter 19 enemies, but they don't seem to be there. Either way at best, the difference is Lucius is hitting harder. Some could say the coming physic staffs are her advantage as they're B staffs. However, it takes 50 points to get to C-B, but Heal alone is 2 WEXP so rather it's 25. Mend, it's 17 with it's 3 WEXP (I don't even need to go through a whole Mend staff?). This isn't counting things like Unlock or Torch which is 5 WEXP a use (I would have brought them up, but the guides seem to claim you can't actually get them for Dread Isle or Dragon's Gate). Either way, Lucius isn't exactly waiting a long time. Between the end of Pirate Ship and the end of Dragon's Gate when I'm likely to get the secret shops, that's basically 3 chapters I can build Lucius's staff rank. Could easily have B by then, or be close enough.

I fail to see how earlygame healing and at best a chapter of physic outdoes basically being completely superior.

Sorcery.

This isn't ranked, so we're probably moving even faster. Let's take every single chapter and shave off one turn (Tactics is super gay in general and shaving off more on average is pretty damn impossible) and assume Serra gets a heal in 3/4 of the time.

She pops out of LHM at level 4.63.

By Chapter 17x, she's gained 520 more EXP.

So, with your blitzkrieg tier list, she's hovering around level 10 in 17x. But, that's not all. There's no incentive for Nils to dance for anyone but Serra in most cases since the enemy density is so low. Leveling up Serra is nothing but a plus, so let her get more heals in. Let's have her gain an additional level from Nils refreshing her nine times during LHM. She's around level 11.

Lucius joins in Chapter 7 of LHM at level 3. He's incapable of one-rounding everything he hits and there's not always an enemy to attack. 30 EXP for a kill and 10 for hitting make sense to everyone? Okay then. 20 EXP per combat turn is a good average, and he can enter combat about 3/4 of his turns or so, like Serra with healing. Let's give him one of the boss kills. All righty then, he's leaving LHM at level 9, which is one behind Serra with Nils, and two behind Serra if the player was smart and used Nils on her at least nine times (should be more imo).

Lucius joins in the end of Chapter 17 when there's nothing left to do. Next chapter? There are enemies that one-shot him. Is he really getting used at all? Serra is, since you need a healer, and she's way better than Priscilla due to higher stats in general and a big level lead (around 4 levels, lol) and perhaps a C support with someone (Hector is a 15 +1 support, so it's somewhat plausible for the C to happen during the game).

Using the same standards as before (Tactics minus one turn) except letting Serra heal every turn on the Pirate Ship besides the first since enemy density is super high there to make this very possible, Serra gains two more levels, and is now level 14ish for that Guiding Ring. Lucius? Lol. Was he even used in 17x with the tiny amount of deployment slots you have and his shit tier durability (worst on the team by far)? I doubt it. Lucius has to play catch-up on the Pirate Ship, and he's not gaining 5 levels there at all, so Serra has a level lead.

Argument for first Guiding Ring: Letting a healer have weapons to attack and defend themselves increases efficiency drastically more than creating another healer. Why? Killing enemies is how you progress in chapters and Serra's mobility will no longer be limited to outside of enemy range. On top of this, Serra will have built up a level lead on every single magic user besides Erk, and Erk is about even with her.

When this is all considered, your levels are ridiculous. They will never be at the same level. Serra's a 14/5 Bishop by the time Lucius even has access to the second Guiding Ring, but Erk's level 20ish by then and Lucius isn't, so...

Lucius is out of luck, and I'm talking about his shitty Lck stat.

Level 15? This isn't ranked, buddy. We don't have all however many turns of LHM Tactics to spend heal-spamming Serra. In efficient play, Serra will probably be lucky to come out of LHM at level 5 since we actually want to clear maps fast now and she won't always be getting Nils, nor will she always have someone to heal.

Perfectly arguable in ranked, not so lucky here.

I took the HM Tactics requirements and shaved off a turn from every chapter to imply that we're going quickly. HM Tactics requirements are already quite brutal, so I think that shaving a turn from every chapter is reasonable. I then had Nils refresh her about 9 times, which is about 1/3 of the time Nils is there instead of all of it. I had Serra heal for 3/4 of the turns available. She still built a level lead on everyone but Erk.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

I took the HM Tactics requirements and shaved off a turn from every chapter to imply that we're going quickly. HM Tactics requirements are already quite brutal, so I think that shaving a turn from every chapter is reasonable. I then had Nils refresh her about 9 times, which is about 1/3 of the time Nils is there instead of all of it. I had Serra heal for 3/4 of the turns available. She still built a level lead on everyone but Erk.

One turn is not enough. I've been doing a test run of LHM to see both how fast I can complete chapters and also how high I can get Serra in an S rank (which doesn't matter here.

Ch 5: Tactics req is 4, it can be done in 3. Nothing to say here.

Ch 6: Tactics req of 7, I did it in 4 while killing everything.

Ch 7: Tactics req is 6, it can be done in 2, or pretty much any time you want after Florina drops Lyn.

Ch 7x: Tactics req of 7, I could have had it done in 4-5 but I took extra so Serra could heal.

Ch 8: Tactics req of 7, I did it in 6, but it would have been possible in 5.

And then after that you've got Mr. I Don't Take Any Damage aka Wallace stomping around and Ch 10 is like 1/2 either in the rain or heavy terrain. Serra isn't getting much to heal at all unless you take extra turns for her, which just subtracts from her own utility.

[dondon151]

So, with your blitzkrieg tier list, she's hovering around level 10 in 17x. But, that's not all. There's no incentive for Nils to dance for anyone but Serra in most cases since the enemy density is so low. Leveling up Serra is nothing but a plus, so let her get more heals in. Let's have her gain an additional level from Nils refreshing her nine times during LHM. She's around level 11.

Let's not contradict ourselves here. If you're doing "blitzkreig" through chapters, there's no point in healing with Serra. I've come out of LHM before with her at 1.66 because I was able to go through chapters without needing her to heal anyone. If someone's going to use Serra in the long run, then they're not going to pass up free EXP, but Nils assisting with turncount reduction definitely takes priority over giving Serra extra heals. I'd say the highest priority for Nils is actually Florina, since that allows her to rescue-drop someone over mountains or forest-y terrain in 1 turn.

Lucius joins in Chapter 7 of LHM at level 3. He's incapable of one-rounding everything he hits and there's not always an enemy to attack.

I wish you would check your numbers more. He joins with 11 atk/10 AS attacking res. In chapter 7, that ORKOs:

Archer: 18 HP, 3 AS, 0 res

Brigand: 21 HP, 5 AS, 0 res

Mage: 16 HP, 3 AS, 2 res

If Lucius procs mag once, he also ORKOs the 22 HP/2 res shamans.

Chapter 7x (assuming 12 atk/10 AS):

Soldier: 21 HP, 1 res

Mage: 16 HP, 2 res

Brigand: 21 HP, 0 res

Cavalier: 20 HP, 0 res

Archer: 19 HP, 1 res

Lucius might actually ORKO Beyard too if he has 13 atk/11 AS.

Lucius joins in the end of Chapter 17 when there's nothing left to do. Next chapter? There are enemies that one-shot him. Is he really getting used at all? Serra is, since you need a healer, and she's way better than Priscilla due to higher stats in general and a big level lead (around 4 levels, lol) and perhaps a C support with someone (Hector is a 15 +1 support, so it's somewhat plausible for the C to happen during the game).

Since when did a level lead dictate which healer is better? Healing does not require stats. The one stat the healing does require is movement, and Priscilla happens to win that by a large margin. Laura, Mist, and Rhys are statistically some of the worst units in RD, but no one really gives a damn about that because healing does not require stats.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I took the HM Tactics requirements and shaved off a turn from every chapter to imply that we're going quickly. HM Tactics requirements are already quite brutal, so I think that shaving a turn from every chapter is reasonable. I then had Nils refresh her about 9 times, which is about 1/3 of the time Nils is there instead of all of it. I had Serra heal for 3/4 of the turns available. She still built a level lead on everyone but Erk.

LHM tactics rankings aren't that close to how efficient you can go. If you're blatantly low turning, you can shave off >~30 turns from the 5* requirement, or about 55 to the required 85.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

EDIT

Edited February 16, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[-Cynthia-]

Serra's earlygame healing for more chapters >>Lucius' chip damage for less chapters pre-promotion, which outweighs his leads post promotion.

[grandjackal]

EDIT: Edited due to a crappy redundant response. Will better collect my thoughts before responding more correctly, was...distracted.

EDIT: Cynthia, while I still think that's enough cause to put her above Lucius (Since post promotion Lucius smacking her forever means nothing, nor is supporting Raven with a relevently fast support), I just don't think they should be that far apart, wouldn't you agree? It's obvious Serra loses post-promotion, and assuming she has a level of 15 by the first ring is astoundingly insane.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/average/lucius.html

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/average/serra.html

Comparing her at 15/1 compared to Lucius at 10/1, her wins are 11 Luck and irrelevent defense (As a Raven support helps mitigate both) as I doubt 27 HP and 6 Def is enough to seperate her from a 2HKO. She's still hitting weaker and is actually slower. Her 5 con to his 7, even basic Light weighs her down to his speed. Shine weighs her down by 3, him only 1, so technically...He's faster. Considering she needs Shine to do what he does with Lightning (actually, she's still 1 might off, but whatever), I can also say she's more expensive to maintain compared to Lucius.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Mekkah]

The game being easy like that just de-values availability if anything. While it makes it easier to not have negative profit, if everyone is equal then still no one has positive, and it also de-values the performance of the units that are actually good and thus their contributions during earlier chapters when they have availability wins.

That's another conclusion you could draw from "the enemies suck", which is fine with me. Either way, it should cause less tier gaps to exist.

[Colonel M]

I had the argument for Fiora and Florina in same tier on old FEG. That and Fiora > Rebecca (the main hurdle) wasn't competed against.

[Inui]

I suck at unranked tier lists, lol.

[Junkhead]

So Lowen is above Kent and Sain due to joining time lead? His stats are a little bad at 20/1, although he does tank decently in chapters that are filled with cavaliers like Chapter 14.

Oswin could do the same and even better there, his Spd will become a little more reliable when promoted, his Atk 6 Def are much better than Lowen's, too.

[Inui]

I fail to see how not killing things vs killing everything in sight somehow gets Lowen above Kent/Sain, lol.

[Junkhead]

Exactly...especially since LHM is assumed.

[Colonel M]

I fail to see how not killing things vs killing everything in sight somehow gets Lowen above Kent/Sain, lol.

Maybe you're forgetting this major thing called "a durability lead" that makes Lowen recieve much more enemy exposure. If Kent and Sain were ORKOing, they'd have a higher CoD than Lowen would if he was (20/1 Lowen with B Marcus / Eliwood... not that I really "support" this combination), has 24 Atk with an Iron Axe. With Steel he has 26 and his AS drops to 10. 10 AS, in Chapter 22, can double at least most of the Fighters, Monks, and Steel Bow Archers. If he uses an Iron Axe he doubles just about every enemy on the map barring Eubans and the Thief). With it (and when not facing Axereavers), he ORKOes. If he pulls out a Killing Edge (25), due to double WTA he can ORKO, but he still has some Crit to back it up. Even with his small offensive loss, he has about 41 HP | 19 Def with the supports. Aside from Eubans, 23 Atk is the highest seen. That 11RKOes him without WTA. The enemies might as well not exist with his durability. Using availability as the tiebreaker also.

He might lose slightly in offense compared to Sain and Kent, but they have little to answer to Lowen just trotting around and not giving a damn about what comes after him.

Efficiency values "time and life", as that is interpreted with Cost. While it may take another combat phase for Lowen to kill something, his "life", aka his durability, far outweighs that loss.

On an unrelated note, Fiora to Upper Mid I think was agreed upon (I'm not bugging you, if you disagree feel free to point it out RFoF), and to be honest I think Rebecca should be going down. I even question her over Bartre. Yes, I went that far.

Of course I'm an inferior debater to Lord dondon, Mekkah, Reikken, and co, so what do I know?

EDIT: Oh, I want to provide something about Rebecca's "h4x" offense. It's so h4x, Lowen compares to the shit:

20/1 Rebecca (Killer Bow) - 24 Atk

20/1 Lowen (Killer Lance) - 23 Atk

Okay so she can double Mercenaries. Nothing that huge to hype about really. Not to mention he can get WTA once in a while, so her lead barely matters. Not to mention that Lowen has an Enemy Phase in a game that the Enemy Phase has the most weight in the game. If this were FE6 or something Rebecca might be okay... but then again she looks like another Dorothy / Neimi. Not worth my time.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

I address a bunch of Lowen stuff here with direct comparisons to Kent and Sain.

Lowen being a 20/1 Paladin at Kinship's Bond is impossible, so your comparison is moot. You only have one Knight Crest, and that's likely to go to Oswin due to his huge level lead and the urgency of giving him 1 Mov/3 AS to turn him into a viable and good unit on the larger maps to come...like this one. The second Knight Crest is being held by Eubans himself.

My assessment of their levels makes a lot more sense. I didn't inflate them and none promoted before Oswin.

You fail to mention Rebecca's much better Crit and Hit, NO KNIGHT CREST ISSUES MEANING SHE FREELY TAKES UHAI'S ORION'S BOLT WITH NO COMPETITION AT ALL FOR IT EVER SINCE WIL IS BOTTOM TIER, and how much Rebecca's AS really matters. She can double and one-round Mercs, Heroes, Wyvern Lords, Falco Knights, Valks, and other really tough enemies for just about everyone to kill and downright impossible for Lowen to kill. She even has some instances where she trumps Raven/Guy in offense, like against fliers. What other unit can say "I am better than both Guy and Raven in offense in <insert combat instance>"? None, really.

Lowen is definitely a way better unit, but saying Rebecca's player-phase offense isn't substantial? Give me a break. It's obvious her post-promotion (and even a bit before) player-phase offense is really good.

[HongLei]

I have a few questions

1 why is Marcus top tier he can fight for a while then gets his sorry butt kicked by Kent and sain (who r way better then lowen bty).

2 sure I see why defence helps lowen but Kent and sain are better. If u can't kill something but can live how does that help against mages and knights. Mages hurt generals so u wanna kill them in 1~2 hits which k and s can do easily but lowen might not be able to kill elder magic users in 1 turn so he gets hit twice and is sad. And if a knight can't hurt u and u can't hurt them too much wouldn't that get a little boring sain has power to hurt and Kent can dodge and they both can hurt it lowen will just get hit and hurt a little.

[HJ.]

above poster for member of the year 2010 imo

[Inui]

Reminds me of amazing posters from 2004 at FEFF. B)