FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[Colonel M]

The best Priscilla can get is a 75% discount, and that's with the Silver Card.

I heard Lyn's Chest can give us a 75% profit, and that's without the Silver Card.

[_____]

Prissy wishes she had Karla's Legs and she's too shy to exploit herself, though.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Ninji

[frat_tastic]

I heard that if Fir is a tier above Lot on the FE6 list, you automatically win the game.

Too bad she's not anymore. Way to ruin that one for us.

[Dat Nick]

Prissy wishes she had Karla's Legs and she's too shy to exploit herself, though.

nonsense

Prissy has better tits than Lyn and better legs than Karla

[_____]

I do believe you are delusional, my good sir.

[Dat Nick]

No. I simply have taste.

[_____]

You have insulted my honor. A duel, I say!

[Dat Nick]

I've no time to deal with those whom do not accept the goddess.

[Florete]

So, like, dondon's rating topic reminded me about this, and it's all the way back on page 3 because it hasn't been posted in since the beginning of April. Funnily enough, it still had the April Fool's list until I edited the real one in a few minutes ago.

Taking a quick look at the list, there are some things I'd like to argue, specifically Lyn's and Florina's positions, but I'll need to gather more information before getting to them.

EDIT: Bump.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Colonel M]

Hm, I cranked another FE7 play through (I don't think I'm going to log this one), but to be honest I think it's time for Heath Bar over there to rise. Being under Rath, for starters, seems pitiful when Heath has the upper hand as soon as the next chapter being a desert chapter. Ah well, I'm not going to go into specifics yet until I glance at the enemy stats and feel less tired. :(

[-Cynthia-]

Both Heath and Farina should go above Rath, flying> bad combat.

How in the world did Rebecca get so high? She doesn't double anything except soldiers, her Str isn't very good, and she doesn't even have good long term potential because she'll never have an Enemy Phase, she gets 2HKOd by like everything anyway. I seem to recall some arguments about her not taking counters compared to Lyn, which is nice and all, but Lyn actually doubles things. With crit due to Mani Katti and can ORKO Cavs/severely injure Armors. Rebecca is probably an an entire tier too high.

Fiora seems low. Her flight advantages in efficiency probably outweigh Dart's ultimately superior combat, since Dart's combat at base is medicore anyway.

Eliwood is probably too high, I don't really see what puts him two tiers above Bartre. Comparing their bases, Bartre has 11 HP, 4 Str, -1 Def, -4 Spd. The Spd looks like a big deal, except that most enemies tend to be in the 6-8 AS range which means neither double or get doubled, meaning that Barte hits harder and has better durability. Bartre has less promotion issues (Heaven Seal comes late) and his weapon type tends to give him WTA instead of WTD. Eliwood does have a horse on promo and a good Hector support, but seems overrated overall. Lucius for example, hits much harder with only marginally worse durability for much of the game (like 2HKOd instead of 3HKOd, but doesn't take counters), and can promote early for C staves.

Speaking of Lucius, how did Erk get to be an entire tier above him?

Edited December 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Hm, I cranked another FE7 play through (I don't think I'm going to log this one), but to be honest I think it's time for Heath Bar over there to rise. Being under Rath, for starters, seems pitiful when Heath has the upper hand as soon as the next chapter being a desert chapter. Ah well, I'm not going to go into specifics yet until I glance at the enemy stats and feel less tired. :(

I think I can get behind this. My last run was ranked, but there's no doubt that Heath both starts better and turns out better. How did he get below Rath in first place? Rath's only significant win is Spd, and Heath wins everything else, along with flight and Lances > Bows. Even the Spd gap ought to close due to Heath having a decent growth and finding more enemy exposure.

Both Heath and Farina should go above Rath, flying> bad combat.

Perhaps Farina can stand to go up, but not too high. 20k is still a decent price, and she lacks availability.

How in the world did Rebecca get so high? She doesn't double anything except soldiers, her Str isn't very good, and she doesn't even have good long term potential because she'll never have an Enemy Phase, she gets 2HKOd by like everything anyway. I seem to recall some arguments about her not taking counters compared to Lyn, which is nice and all, but Lyn actually doubles things. With crit due to Mani Katti and can ORKO Cavs/severely injure Armors. Rebecca is probably an an entire tier too high.

I agree with this too, at least for HHM (EHM is much nicer on the girl). Even in ranked where you feed units often, Rebecca just doesn't have good enough potential to justify a position anywhere above Lower Mid, imo.

I also think Lyn is underrated, but that will take even more research on my part than Florina.

Fiora seems low. Her flight advantages in efficiency probably outweigh Dart's ultimately superior combat, since Dart's combat at base is medicore anyway.

Agreed, though it's possible Dart should go down anyway. He can turn out amazing, but he's not too easy to get there.

Eliwood is probably too high, I don't really see what puts him two tiers above Bartre. Comparing their bases, Bartre has 11 HP, 4 Str, -1 Def, -4 Spd. The Spd looks like a big deal, except that most enemies tend to be in the 6-8 AS range which means neither double or get doubled, meaning that Barte hits harder and has better durability. Bartre has less promotion issues (Heaven Seal comes late) and his weapon type tends to give him WTA instead of WTD. Eliwood does have a horse on promo and a good Hector support, but seems overrated overall. Lucius for example, hits much harder with only marginally worse durability for much of the game (like 2HKOd instead of 3HKOd, but doesn't take counters), and can promote early for C staves.

I have no clue what put Eliwood into High. I personally have always found even Lyn > him, and she is also currently two tiers under.

Speaking of Lucius, how did Erk get to be an entire tier above him?

I believe Erk has better AS and durability, as well as more availability for a significant level lead.

[-Cynthia-]

I believe Erk has better AS and durability, as well as more availability for a significant level lead.

Erk's level lead isn't as significant when LHM is assumed, since both Erk and Lucius both gain less EXP in HHM. Also it's only ~4 chapters before Lucius shows up, depending on how we're counting recruitment chapters.

Let's give Erk a 2 level lead. I don't see Erk leveling that much because we can't let him see significant enemy phase action, and he often doesn't double on the Player Phase.

9/0 Erk(Fire)

22 HP 13 Atk 11 AS 3.6 Def 7 Res

7/0 Lucius (Lightning)

20 HP 13.4 Atk 11.6 AS 1.4 Def 8.4 Res

If you think that's stingy, here's 11/0 Erk

23.5 HP 14 Atk 12 AS 4 Def 8 Res

He does beat Lucius more here, but only marginally.

Lucius has slightly more offense (plus the crit from light magic), Erk has slightly better durability, but it's really not good enough to leverage much since many enemies reach 14 Atk by this point in the game anyway.

Growthwise, they're pretty similar. Erk should catch up in Spd since he has a 10% higher growth in that, also keep his Def lead since he has a 10% higher growth in that, though it's still only 20% so he won't ever become very durable. Lucius has a 20% lead in Mag growth.

One thing to note about Lucius is that he gets C staves upon promotion instead of the E staves Erk gets. Being able to use staves like Restore and Physic are very useful, it is unlikely that Erk will ever be able to use these staves while maintaining efficient turncounts.

Basically, I'm not seeing how Erk's stats are so much better as to warrant an entire tier gap between the two. Either Lucius is too low, Erk is too high, or some of both.

[Life]

I'd throw in some snappy comment about Lucius dying if he's sneezed on but it's not like Erk has anything resembling durability himself. I'm with Cynthia on this one. Especially when you consider that we can get a 13/1 Lucius by the time midgame rolls around that has access to the almighty Barrier staff (13 shots until Physic) while Erk will never be touching anything better than Mend.

I'd also like to see Pent > Eliwood. Mediocre bases and sword lock until Unfulfilled Heart (oh look, Pent joins then too) is too poor in my mind as opposed to Pent's really really good combat (26 Att and 17 AS with Thunder) and utility (A staves probably makes him the only guy with access to Warp at this point in time). A Louise doesn't hurt at all since it's an Easy A.

The question is which is worse: Eliwood being a sword oriented combat (with shit bases) until Pent arrives or Pent not arriving until Eliwood finds his niche?

Edited December 10, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Gergeshwan]

Seconding Pent > Eliwood. It really takes a lot to get Eliwood going, and Marcus doesn't leave too many early scraps. Promoted Eliwood is nice, but getting him there after his poor bases will really take a concentrated effort to feed him kills.

In addition to Pent's outstanding combat, Warp and Rescue are really important for bringing, say, Hector to the front. While your primary staffbot would probably have the rank to use them, a 10/1 Serra/Priscilla would not compare in terms of the range. Pent is most likely the best choice to deploy aside Hector in chapter 30, as Warp combined with his combat get Hector to the throne faster.

Also, Eliwood could probably drop under a lot of people due to what it takes to make him useful. Certainly Florina, whose early flying is essential to 16 and 17x before anyone else can take part of the flying utility pie.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Gergeshwan

[Florete]

In addition to Pent's outstanding combat, Warp and Rescue are really important for bringing, say, Hector to the front. While your primary staffbot would probably have the rank to use them, a 10/1 Serra/Priscilla would not compare in terms of the range. Pent is most likely the best choice to deploy aside Hector in chapter 30, as Warp combined with his combat get Hector to the throne faster.

I can agree with Pent > Eliwood, but what's with the 10/1 staffers? Getting them to 20 before promotion is very easy with the likes of Barrier and Physic. There's no reason not to.

[Life]

I can agree with Pent > Eliwood, but what's with the 10/1 staffers? Getting them to 20 before promotion is very easy with the likes of Barrier and Physic. There's no reason not to.

I said 13/1 for Lucius and I'm talking midgame. Like Kinship's Bond (22).

[Florete]

I said 13/1 for Lucius and I'm talking midgame. Like Kinship's Bond (22).

I was actually referring to his mention of Serra/Priscilla being 10/1.

[Gergeshwan]

The 10/1 thing was actually directed towards my statement about Serra and Priscilla, not about Lucius.

Anyway, while you probably could squeeze something better out with enough Physic spamming, there isn't a whole lot of time to get up to 20 before the next Guiding Ring comes in chapter 27. And you do want to promote as soon as you can for the extra move. Unless you take an extra 2 turns or so in chapter 20, Physics won't be around until the chapter 22 Secret Shop. That leaves 23, 23x, 24, 25, 26, and 27 to spam them for exp. Maybe something like 12/2 would have been more accurate for when Rescue shows up.

Although it's not really important anyway, since this was supposed to be about Pent.

As for Lucius vs. Erk, you can finish the chapter a turn before the soldiers move so you can recruit Lucius. Not sure how heavily you'd want to weigh that turn cost though.

[Florete]

Anyway, while you probably could squeeze something better out with enough Physic spamming, there isn't a whole lot of time to get up to 20 before the next Guiding Ring comes in chapter 27.

What the...just how many magic users are you promoting? There are 3 Guiding Rings before 27, and somehow I doubt you're using 4-5 of Priscilla, Serra, Erk, Canas, and Lucius (especially since you'll likely focus on just one healer).

And you do want to promote as soon as you can for the extra move.

But what's more valuable: one move for a few maps, or actually useful combat with better durability for (likely) more? I don't think those earlier maps are going to be big enough to justify the extra move, especially when Physics come into play. Well, maybe for Serra, since 5 move can easily fall short when you have mounted units running around.

Unless you take an extra 2 turns or so in chapter 20, Physics won't be around until the chapter 22 Secret Shop. That leaves 23, 23x, 24, 25, 26, and 27 to spam them for exp. Maybe something like 12/2 would have been more accurate for when Rescue shows up.

I don't know how people do Dragon's Gate, but visiting the Secret Shop with the Physics has never cost me turns I wasn't already needing to take.

Although it's not really important anyway, since this was supposed to be about Pent.

For future reference.

As for Lucius vs. Erk, you can finish the chapter a turn before the soldiers move so you can recruit Lucius. Not sure how heavily you'd want to weigh that turn cost though.

Within the reason of the tier list, I don't think we'll be finishing the map that fast.

[Gergeshwan]

What the...just how many magic users are you promoting? There are 3 Guiding Rings before 27, and somehow I doubt you're using 4-5 of Priscilla, Serra, Erk, Canas, and Lucius (especially since you'll likely focus on just one healer).

2. A combat one from Erk/Lucius or even Canas and a primary staffer. Although I did forget about the stealable one in chapter 23 for some reason, so there's really no reason to wait that long. The primary healer can get promoted as soon as they hit level 10, whenever that may be. As for the first one off Zoldam, it costs a turn to steal. And if you want the Elysian Whip as well, then it should cost two turns, as Matthew would have to lag behind to steal the Whip..

But what's more valuable: one move for a few maps, or actually useful combat with better durability for (likely) more? I don't think those earlier maps are going to be big enough to justify the extra move, especially when Physics come into play. Well, maybe for Serra, since 5 move can easily fall short when you have mounted units running around.

It probably isn't that important, although the combat gains from waiting aren't a whole lot either. Even if they waited, you wouldn't want them to get attacked because they don't do a whole lot of damage. They would get an extra 3 HP and 2 defense from the early promotion to give them a buffer against getting OHKOd in case of a mistake, which should be enough.

And even with spamming Physic, I still have a hard time seeing them hit 20 in the first place. Priscilla would definitely want to be promoted for Battle Before Dawn, which gives her those 6 chapters to abuse Physic. One of those only takes 2 turns (24) unless you end up dumping enough exp into the lords to take Linus's version. Since she's only been using Heal and Mend to that point, she's probably only level 7-8 before you get Physics. And if it's the difference between a 10/5 healer or a 15/1, there's not much of a difference there, except that the 10/5 had the extra move longer.

I don't know how people do Dragon's Gate, but visiting the Secret Shop with the Physics has never cost me turns I wasn't already needing to take.

If you go right up the middle, you can finish Darin, recruit Legault, steal the Member Card with him, and seize on turn 7. You could probably reach the shop faster by going through the left treasure room, but it would take longer to reach Darin then.

Within the reason of the tier list, I don't think we'll be finishing the map that fast.

Fair enough.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Gergeshwan

[Florete]

2. A combat one from Erk/Lucius or even Canas and a primary staffer. Although I did forget about the stealable one in chapter 23 for some reason, so there's really no reason to wait that long. The primary healer can get promoted as soon as they hit level 10, whenever that may be. As for the first one off Zoldam, it costs a turn to steal. And if you want the Elysian Whip as well, then it should cost two turns, as Matthew would have to lag behind to steal the Whip..

I don't know when the mentality became "get the absolute lowest minimum turn count," but that's never been the way we've done it as long as I've been around (which has been forever as far as this forum is concerned). If it takes an extra turn to get a useful item like this (during which time you'll also get more experience, etc.), I'd say it's worth it, granted it will be used reasonably. Plus, it might not even take an extra turn if you just have Matthew steal and then someone else kill. If you position him right he can steal from the south square, someone like Marcus can go around the west and if you need one more there's another spot to his right. I tend to be very careful trying to kill him anyway due to his crit with Luna.

It probably isn't that important, although the combat gains from waiting aren't a whole lot either. Even if they waited, you wouldn't want them to get attacked because they don't do a whole lot of damage. They would get an extra 3 HP and 2 defense from the early promotion to give them a buffer against getting OHKOd in case of a mistake, which should be enough.

Defense when they shouldn't get attacked vs offense when it's reasonable to. Seriously? No, that's not enough. And even if they don't start with great combat (which, comparatively, I am pretty sure isn't true, but I won't pursue just yet), their experience bonus along with high level staves will get their levels up faster than others.

And even with spamming Physic, I still have a hard time seeing them hit 20 in the first place. Priscilla would definitely want to be promoted for Battle Before Dawn, which gives her those 6 chapters to abuse Physic. One of those only takes 2 turns (24) unless you end up dumping enough exp into the lords to take Linus's version. Since she's only been using Heal and Mend to that point, she's probably only level 7-8 before you get Physics. And if it's the difference between a 10/5 healer or a 15/1, there's not much of a difference there, except that the 10/5 had the extra move longer.

On my recent ranked run (which I take faster than I do regularly due to 0 requirements) they both promoted, from level 20, on Unfulfilled Heart (Priscilla in the base, Serra a couple turns in). Serra came out of LHM at ~4.50 (she used one full Heal staff) and I didn't even exactly "spam" Physic (I used it more than I needed but not at every opportunity) due to wanting to keep an eye on Funds. And this was both, so I wasn't even focusing on just one. Why do people find it so hard to level the healers?

And wait, FFO only takes 2 turns? What the hell? How are you treating this tier list? This is not dondon's rating topic where it's minimum turn count or bust.

Also, the 10/5 healer took longer to get those levels than the 15/1, so that's not accurate, especially since you claim their 10/1 offense to not be good.

If you go right up the middle, you can finish Darin, recruit Legault, steal the Member Card with him, and seize on turn 7. You could probably reach the shop faster by going through the left treasure room, but it would take longer to reach Darin then.

Got a video or anything? Because I've never been able to beat the map nearly that fast. There are too many enemies, the map is too cramped, and your units aren't yet at the point where they can always reliably ORKO and live when faced with too much.

[CATS]

I don't know when the mentality became "get the absolute lowest minimum turn count," but that's never been the way we've done it as long as I've been around (which has been forever as far as this forum is concerned).

What is the mentality for this "efficiency" list then? Is there a certain turncount somewhere above the lowest possible which is being aimed for, and anything beyond what is necessary to get that count is considered superfluous, or is the "mentality" flexible and intentionally undefined?

[Junkhead]

Being under Rath, for starters, seems pitiful when Heath has the upper hand as soon as the next chapter being a desert chapter. Ah well, I'm not going to go into specifics yet until I glance at the enemy stats and feel less tired. :(

Dude...Mages, Archers, Mages, Mages, MAGES. And not to mention, Paul and Jasmine PLUS FoW. Sure, you can field him for Rescue/Dropping, but shouldn't we pick someone more adecuate for the job? Like, Florina and/or Fiora, who actually have Res? Rath can do something in his joining chapter.

[Florete]

What is the mentality for this "efficiency" list then? Is there a certain turncount somewhere above the lowest possible which is being aimed for, and anything beyond what is necessary to get that count is considered superfluous, or is the "mentality" flexible and intentionally undefined?

The problem with assuming minimum possible turn count is that it too often relies on extremely specific team setups and strategies, and I just don't agree that a tier list that includes every unit in the game should be run like that, and I recall seeing others in the past oppose the idea of "maximum efficiency" as well. I can't put any concrete turn count down, but I like to assume a reasonably low turn count while keeping the chances of success high. You've got to allow for some different team set ups and strategies. In the end, you'll still get the result of units who make the game faster at the best chances of success being higher, but without having units get unnecessarily shafted due to Marcus blitzing or something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the quickest strategies are disregarded. Part of the reason Marcus is so high is because he can make the game go so fast. I just don't assume that as a reason to severely underlevel others.

Dude...Mages, Archers, Mages, Mages, MAGES. And not to mention, Paul and Jasmine PLUS FoW. Sure, you can field him for Rescue/Dropping, but shouldn't we pick someone more adecuate for the job? Like, Florina and/or Fiora, who actually have Res? Rath can do something in his joining chapter.

Don't forget Barrier and Pure Water.