tier list

[Progenitus]

Ah, narga's troll baiting. Of course if I respond, he's probably going to mod me with his h4x mod user powerz (just like when I pointed out something ironic in the fe9 tier list), so maybe I should tread lightly.

There is training, and there is serious training. All of those units have some measure of usability if you just gum things to near-death for them to finish off as you are pushing forward, but they will not actually reach their potential this way, particularly in the case of someone like Fiona. You can actually make them useful by taking the time to do so... it's your prerogative.

Any fool can do either, though.

Again, I can easily train shitty units like Edward without slowing my team down, so it boils down to...

1) You're bad at this game.

2) You should stop debating FE.

3) You should kill yourself.

People are making arguments using enemy stats,

Actually, the only stats I see that were ever brought up within the last 40 posts about Sanaki was this...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19003&view=findpost&p=874177

Please enlighten me if anyone actually posted actual stats within the last 40 or so posts.

drawing crude placement charts, and generally explaining how to use Sanaki effectively... but the last step has to be the one where you take your fingers out of your ears and stop humming the 1812 Overture to yourself.

A child can tell us how to use X unit effectively. This doesn't make the unit good or bad, or better than a unit Sanaki's trying to jump over.

Considering this is an efficiency list that runs on the principle of net utility, and Edward is in Lower-Mid, Meg is in Bottom and Fiona is below bottom, I would draw the conclusion that you think that they slow your team down. But apparently, now they don't. Are you saying you're thinking about moving them up?

(And all three of them need a LOT of training. Edward needs to gain 17 levels in 10 chapters to be 20/01, Meg needs 18 levels in 6 chapters, Fiona needs 12 levels in 2 chapters. Fiona in particular needs a lot of levels - if she's 19 or lower in 3-6, she has a serious chance of being doubled and 1-rounded by Cats.)

That's the joke.

Whenever I bring up arguments against Sanaki or some other random bad unit, half the flames I get back are something liek how I fail at this game and don't know strategy. Yet when I say that *insert random terribad unit* won't reduce your efficiency as long as you use strategy, suddenly I get cries of "BUT THEY SLOW YOU DOWN".

There is a subtle (yet significant) difference between someone being stupid enough to get someone like Gatrie killed, and being "good enough" at this game to use shitty units like snacky or meg.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Interceptor]

Again, I can easily train shitty units like Edward without slowing my team down, so it boils down to...

So, is it that you don't understand nuance, here? There is a distinct difference between training Eddie to be usable, and training Eddie to be useful. It is not hard to just randomly feed him as many kills as possible without slowing your team down, but Eddie is not going to be an excellent unit at the end. If you DO want to make him excellent, you have to slow down.

It is not a terribly difficult concept to grasp.

Actually, the only stats I see that were ever brought up within the last 40 posts about Sanaki was this...

Sanaki has been discussed for at least 5+ pages, half this thread or more. If you can't find the places where people brought up stats WRT Sanaki's performance, you have not been paying attention. Which will come as no surprise to the people who posted, I am certain.

A child can tell us how to use X unit effectively. This doesn't make the unit good or bad, or better than a unit Sanaki's trying to jump over.

Understanding how to use a unit effectively is a requirement for being able to measure their performance with respect to their placement relative to someone else. Unless you don't care about being effective, of course.

[nflchamp]

That's the joke.

Whenever I bring up arguments against Sanaki or some other random bad unit, half the flames I get back are something liek how I fail at this game and don't know strategy. Yet when I say that *insert random terribad unit* won't reduce your efficiency as long as you use strategy, suddenly I get cries of "BUT THEY SLOW YOU DOWN".

There is a subtle (yet significant) difference between someone being stupid enough to get someone like Gatrie killed, and being "good enough" at this game to use shitty units like snacky or meg.

You mean, how you say you can train X bad unit w/o them slowing you down and then never show anything about how to do it? It's not very convincing that they're doing anything or that they're good, to tell the truth.

Edited March 1, 2010 by nflchamp

[Narga_Rocks]

Ah, narga's troll baiting. Of course if I respond, he's probably going to mod me with his h4x mod user powerz (just like when I pointed out something ironic in the fe9 tier list), so maybe I should tread lightly.

I've never modded you once. What are you talking about?

Again, I can easily train shitty units like Edward without slowing my team down, so it boils down to...

1) You're bad at this game.

2) You should stop debating FE.

3) You should kill yourself.

Okay, here's the thing. If you can finish part 1 and 3 in X turns total without Ed, and you can finish part 1 and 3 in X turns total while getting Ed to, say, 20/13 or something by the end of part 3 without significantly hurting your other units' levels, doesn't that mean that Ed's oh so bad beginnings aren't hurting you? There isn't any negative utility anymore either because guess what? He did just as well as the other guy would have. So, he needs to go up, since if you get him high enough he'll be decent in part 3 and 4, and if you got him high enough leveled in part 1 he'd be doubling and not suck completely.

I, however, doubt that it can be pulled off. GJ is trying, so if he can manage to build a team that I don't think neglects the other units while still making Ed good, I'd be tempted to try to get Ed up to mid (on the good list run by someone that listens to reason). I, however, suspect that training Ed carries a significant cost with it. Using Sanaki efficiently does not. She can help, possibly speed you up, and certainly not slow you down or cause you to hurt your other units to pull it off. And she has a free slot as well, so she's not even carrying the cost of "you could deploy Y instead". Basically, everything that holds back Meg, Ed, Fiona, etc aren't there at all in the case of Sanaki.

And if you want numbers, go find my post about Sanaki vs. Pelleas. I've linked to it multiple times in topics you were watching and I'm sick of posting the link myself. And besides, numbers don't matter all that much in 4-3 because she shouldn't get attacked at all.

That's the joke.

Whenever I bring up arguments against Sanaki or some other random bad unit, half the flames I get back are something liek how I fail at this game and don't know strategy. Yet when I say that *insert random terribad unit* won't reduce your efficiency as long as you use strategy, suddenly I get cries of "BUT THEY SLOW YOU DOWN".

We've actually attempted to explain to you, multiple times and not just in the last 40 posts, how to efficiently use Sanaki (hence without slowing you down). You've given us none of that wrt Meg and Fiona. You've just said that they don't, nothing more.

There is a subtle (yet significant) difference between someone being stupid enough to get someone like Gatrie killed, and being "good enough" at this game to use shitty units like snacky or meg.

What are you even driving at, here?

[Progenitus]

So, is it that you don't understand nuance, here? There is a distinct difference between training Eddie to be usable, and training Eddie to be useful. It is not hard to just randomly feed him as many kills as possible without slowing your team down, but Eddie is not going to be an excellent unit at the end. If you DO want to make him excellent, you have to slow down.

It is not a terribly difficult concept to grasp.

Sanaki has been discussed for at least 5+ pages, half this thread or more. If you can't find the places where people brought up stats WRT Sanaki's performance, you have not been paying attention. Which will come as no surprise to the people who posted, I am certain.

Understanding how to use a unit effectively is a requirement for being able to measure their performance with respect to their placement relative to someone else. Unless you don't care about being effective, of course.

You know, I'm going to take a leaf out of narga's book.

Sigh

You mean, how you say you can train X bad unit w/o them slowing you down and then never show anything about how to do it? It's not very convincing that they're doing anything or that they're good, to tell the truth.

Oh, you mean something like tehnikhil's situation where there was only one enemy within a three range radius of snacky and that enemy wasn't using 1-2 range (if it did it would counter snacky) and the other nearby enemies also weren't using 1-2 range, and there was also absolutely no wyverns nearby to OHKO her or mages nearby to rape whatever fliers/filler units that are supposed to be backing up snacky, and then I had no enemy stats given whatsoever to prove that snacky + shitty filler units could actually kill this SINGLE enemy off reliably (do note that if snacky is using cymbaline, she's probably getting doubled by everything, and a lighter tome might not be strong enough to kill in tandem with these shitty flier units)? Note that if ANY one of these things aren't fulfilled, snacky is in deep shit.

Yeah, I said that might happen once every couple turns at best. It doesn't actually say anything though, since shit tiers like Meg eat that for breakfast. Stuff like wailing on laguz in 1-4 for potential potshot damage (and guaranteed to at least reduce their gauge), block ledges in 1-5 and 3-13, shoving, etc.

Of course I could explain to you how to use shit tiers like Edward without slowing you down, but that's not the point I'm trying to get across.

I've never modded you once. What are you talking about?

Okay, here's the thing. If you can finish part 1 and 3 in X turns total without Ed, and you can finish part 1 and 3 in X turns total while getting Ed to, say, 20/13 or something by the end of part 3 without significantly hurting your other units' levels, doesn't that mean that Ed's oh so bad beginnings aren't hurting you? There isn't any negative utility anymore either because guess what? He did just as well as the other guy would have. So, he needs to go up, since if you get him high enough he'll be decent in part 3 and 4, and if you got him high enough leveled in part 1 he'd be doubling and not suck completely.

I, however, doubt that it can be pulled off. GJ is trying, so if he can manage to build a team that I don't think neglects the other units while still making Ed good, I'd be tempted to try to get Ed up to mid (on the good list run by someone that listens to reason). I, however, suspect that training Ed carries a significant cost with it. Using Sanaki efficiently does not. She can help, possibly speed you up, and certainly not slow you down or cause you to hurt your other units to pull it off. And she has a free slot as well, so she's not even carrying the cost of "you could deploy Y instead". Basically, everything that holds back Meg, Ed, Fiona, etc aren't there at all in the case of Sanaki.

And if you want numbers, go find my post about Sanaki vs. Pelleas. I've linked to it multiple times in topics you were watching and I'm sick of posting the link myself. And besides, numbers don't matter all that much in 4-3 because she shouldn't get attacked at all.

We've actually attempted to explain to you, multiple times and not just in the last 40 posts, how to efficiently use Sanaki (hence without slowing you down). You've given us none of that wrt Meg and Fiona. You've just said that they don't, nothing more.

What are you even driving at, here?

u mad

Edited March 1, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, I'm going to take a leaf out of narga's book.

That would be great if it wasn't for the part where I said "sigh" about the money situation, something that's been discussed over and over for months upon months and I just noticed that Vykan wants to waste money on sticking crit on everything he creates and realized that as long as we are on different planets we can't resolve the situation. It's my opinion that this situation is different. You may have a different opinion.

Oh, you mean something like tehnikhil's situation where there was only one enemy within a three range radius of snacky and that enemy wasn't using 1-2 range (if it did it would counter snacky) and the other nearby enemies also weren't using 1-2 range, and there was also absolutely no wyverns nearby to OHKO her or mages nearby to rape whatever fliers/filler units that are supposed to be backing up snacky, and then I had no enemy stats given whatsoever to prove that snacky + shitty filler units could actually kill this SINGLE enemy off reliably (do note that if snacky is using cymbaline, she's probably getting doubled by everything, and a lighter tome might not be strong enough to kill in tandem with these shitty flier units)? Note that if ANY one of these things aren't fulfilled, snacky is in deep shit.

Yeah, I said that might happen once every couple turns at best. It doesn't actually say anything though, since shit tiers like Meg eat that for breakfast. Stuff like wailing on laguz in 1-4 for potential potshot damage (and guaranteed to at least reduce their gauge), block ledges in 1-5 and 3-13, shoving, etc.

Of course I could explain to you how to use shit tiers like Edward without slowing you down, but that's not the point I'm trying to get across.

I suspect that even if we provided video of 4-3 for you were Sanaki never needed more than 1 guard and typically didn't even need one but still got to attack something on 9 (or more) out of 12 turns, you'd still come up with something against Sanaki being useful. You've already made up your mind, so there is little point giving you step by step instructions of what to do in all the different scenarios that can present themselves in this chapter. Suffice it to say, 6 move vs. 2 move enemies gives you plenty of options each turn to put Sanaki in just about any preferable square from which to attack. It is criminally easy to find a square from which she can safely attack. There are 2 mages (bishops don't move) on the entire map to start out, so your fliers care little about that considering the two sages are pretty far apart (not that I, personally, have fliers follow Sanaki around on this map). The dracos all come from the same general area and any that can move should be drawn on one enemy phase and dealt with on the following player phase. And hey! Sanaki can either OHKO one of them or get it really close to dead for one of your other units. And if it was countered on EP, even by a unit that doesn't double, she should easily OHKO the thing.

u mad

Sure, that's much more effective a counter than actually typing content.

[Progenitus]

On a side note, I don't know who snacky is even trying to move over. If it's Bastian I'll just make the change since it's only one slot, and if it'll stop half the board from coming into this topic and circlejerking each other, it's worth it.

Also moved sigrun above snacky. I have no idea what she was doing below, but I may as well do it now.

[dondon151]

And I've successfully used shitty units like Meg and Edward and Rolf on HM before. dem for top tier mirite

Smash, I don't think you've even used Sanaki before. It is not difficult at all to have her dance around with a backup on 4-3 and kill enemies. TheoryFE can only go so far until it fails in practice.

[Colonel M]

I don't think we were trying to drive Sanaki much higher than Bastian... but I could be wrong. It's not like we're saying Sanaki for top of Low Mid or w/e tier she's in.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

On a side note, I don't know who snacky is even trying to move over. If it's Bastian I'll just make the change since it's only one slot,

Oh no, sir, we were actually arguing her for top tier!

[nflchamp]

Somewhere in here smash is misinterpreting us and thinking we're saying Sanaki is a great unit that can always do something every turn without care about enemies.

Oh, and for Sanaki getting doubled I have two words: forged fire.

[Progenitus]

if the highest they're arguing for is above bastian, then that's good news, because finally they can stop circle jerking each other over the subject.

[Narga_Rocks]

On a side note, I don't know who snacky is even trying to move over. If it's Bastian I'll just make the change since it's only one slot, and if it'll stop half the board from coming into this topic and circlejerking each other, it's worth it.

I don't think we've been co-signing each others' posts and repeatedly saying "person X is right because" or anything like that. We've mostly been directly replying to you. As for Sanaki, aside from Lehran dropping a lot I don't see any other unit to bother putting her over for the moment. She has a reasonable argument against Gareth and Kurth, especially Kurth, but I would never want to argue Sanaki above Ilyana or Rolf.

[Anouleth]

Smash, I don't think you've even used Sanaki before. It is not difficult at all to have her dance around with a backup on 4-3 and kill enemies. TheoryFE can only go so far until it fails in practice.

Haven't you said this already?

Although Smash just dismissed it and said that he's used crappy units before, I didn't really get what he was trying to say.

I GUESS WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

I don't think we were trying to drive Sanaki much higher than Bastian... but I could be wrong. It's not like we're saying Sanaki for top of Low Mid or w/e tier she's in.

The issue is that since Smash specifically set this list up as 'net' utility, Sanaki can go above any character who's total utility over the course of the game is bad. Sanaki is free, she's always a positive, if a very small positive, so she's better than anybody who contributes less than they take away.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

Yes yes circle-jerk on a 14 year old or bashing a 14 year old because he "doesn't get it".

Hm, Volke vs. Stefan. I would think Stefan would be > Volke here (Vague Katti and Alondite access, not to mention Wyrmslayer a possibility to hamper some of the 4-E-3 Dragons).

The issue is that since Smash specifically set this list up as 'net' utility, Sanaki can go above any character who's total utility over the course of the game is bad. Sanaki is free, she's always a positive, if a very small positive, so she's better than anybody who contributes less than they take away.

Completely understood sir, which was why I took the side of Snacky.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Colonel M

[nflchamp]

Haven't you said this already?

Although Smash just dismissed it and said that he's used crappy units before, I didn't really get what he was trying to say.

I GUESS WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

The issue is that since Smash specifically set this list up as 'net' utility, Sanaki can go above any character who's total utility over the course of the game is bad. Sanaki is free, she's always a positive, if a very small positive, so she's better than anybody who contributes less than they take away.

Hence why Lehran needs to drop below her. He's barely positive, even less so than Sanaki.

[Anouleth]

Hence why Lehran needs to drop below her. He's barely positive, even less so than Sanaki.

Or even better, Sanaki can go above Lehran?

*Wants to see Snacky in Upper-Mid*

[Interceptor]

smash has this concept of utility where he consider Lehran to be the shining example of a more or less perfectly neutral unit. I am pretty certain that's why Lehran is currently in the center of the tiers.

[nflchamp]

smash has this concept of utility where he consider Lehran to be the shining example of a more or less perfectly neutral unit. I am pretty certain that's why Lehran is currently in the center of the tiers.

Ignoring the fact that neutral utility =/= middle.

[Anouleth]

smash has this concept of utility where he consider Lehran to be the shining example of a more or less perfectly neutral unit. I am pretty certain that's why Lehran is currently in the center of the tiers.

Does this mean that Tormod is negative utility?

;_;

[Narga_Rocks]

smash has this concept of utility where he consider Lehran to be the shining example of a more or less perfectly neutral unit. I am pretty certain that's why Lehran is currently in the center of the tiers.

And yet the trouble with that being that Sanaki can go and hide in the other chapters and make three or four potshots in 4-3 and end up one slot below Lehran. Other units simply don't have that whole free slot thing going on. Whatever his rules, I'd think it a travesty to have Sanaki in the same tier in which Lehran currently resides (though it's already one for Lehran to be there) so I'm happy enough if he doesn't consistently apply his own rules across all characters.

[Interceptor]

I'll link smash's thoughts on this subject, so that people don't think that I am making shit up.

Lehran in the ranking topic

[Progenitus]

Oh, and for Sanaki getting doubled I have two words: forged fire.

That's a ton of money going around, since I'm already assuming your serious members of the team are using one (or several) souped up forges. If we're going to give snacky a forge, what's stopping us from just using shitty filler units like danved and giving them forges to do these potshots snacky is supposedly making? Do we even have enough money to make those kinds of forges at this point?

The issue is that since Smash specifically set this list up as 'net' utility, Sanaki can go above any character who's total utility over the course of the game is bad. Sanaki is free, she's always a positive, if a very small positive, so she's better than anybody who contributes less than they take away.

It's very easy to use ANY unit in such a way that they only generate positive utility. Not just snacky can do it. Scrubs like Rolf and Edward can too. Unfortunately this just makes debates into stupidly boring because it turns into a battle of wimpy potshots (did you even see my Rolf vs snacky vs teknihkil, or however you spell his name? That was one of the most boring debates ever, it was a battle of rolf's shitty potshots vs snacky's shitty potshots).

Hm, Volke vs. Stefan. I would think Stefan would be > Volke here (Vague Katti and Alondite access, not to mention Wyrmslayer a possibility to hamper some of the 4-E-3 Dragons).

Stefan's big problem is that Mia and/or Zihark have good chance sof being brought into 4-E, which hinder his chances of getting VK and/or Alondite. In most cases he's only going to get one of them, and sometimes he might not even get either. Volke can easily get baselard, since sothe is balls at this point and heather is even worse.

Volke also has a substantial durability lead on him, and Stefan must be using an SS sword to still lose slightly (Volke has 5+ more res and def with similar HP/avoid before alondite/VK).

Note that Volke has quite a bit more offense at 1-range, due to more innate crit + baselard giving more crit while only losing att slightly (if at all, since he does have 3 more base str). And 1-2 range might actually be arguable since you can forge an expensive knife for him which will have 15 crit.

[Progenitus]

Lehran's placing is highly dependent on which style of debating you use.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17344&st=0&p=665812&fromsearch=1entry665812

I have problems with both extremes, which is why I feel this is so far the best we've got...

WRT +/- utility: performance over the whole game is weighed, as otherwise we are reflecting a 100% efficiency playthrough, and not the actual value of a unit throughout the game. However, a time where you are bad weighs less against a unit if your good part is before your bad part.

speaking of which, I'm going to edit this into OP.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'll link smash's thoughts on this subject, so that people don't think that I am making shit up.

Lehran in the ranking topic

It's very easy to use ANY unit in such a way that they only generate positive utility. Not just snacky can do it. Scrubs like Rolf and Edward can too. Unfortunately this just makes debates into stupidly boring because it turns into a battle of wimpy potshots (did you even see my Rolf vs snacky vs teknihkil, or however you spell his name? That was one of the most boring debates ever, it was a battle of rolf's shitty potshots vs snacky's shitty potshots).

How do you reconcile those two posts of yours? Rolf and co. have some free deployment chapters and can be benched for the rest of the game, sure, but not on a list made by you. If they are holding a slot (even if they don't use it) they are facing the negative that the slot could have gone to anybody else. Sanaki doesn't have this problem until 4-E-4, and even then Kurth and Sothe aren't very good and neither is Gareth in 4-E-4. As for 4-E-5, where Gareth is good, Kurth and Sothe still aren't. If units are forced to keep a slot for themselves throughout the entire game, Sanaki obliterates units like Ed and Rolf so much it warrants a 2 tier gap, minimum. Even if you use "a time where you are bad weighs less against a unit if your good part is before your bad part" it is still at least 1 tier gap unless weighing a bad part less is code for giving it no weight or infinitessimal weight.

(and there is an edit button to prevent the need to make a double post)

Edited March 1, 2010 by Narga_Rocks