tier list

[Colonel M]

So I see that smash has not came up with something witty about why Bastian is better than Sanaki. In that case, I think it's only logical to assume that Sanaki > Bastian is agreed upon. Unless, of course, we're going to kick out a 10th unit for a healbot that can only use Physic (lol).

Merlinus, what you need to remember is that we are aware of Sanaki's negatives. Very much so, her durability is trash. Yet, since she doesn't kick out a better unit it means that you cannot floor her as a complete negative, but attributing to some positives along the way.

[tehnikhil]

Is merlinus smash?

[Anouleth]

Is merlinus smash?

No.

[Zkirsche]

First, your rule of Comparisons are assumed "unit A + team vs unit B + team" immediately gives Sanaki a big advantage, since she has no opportunity cost for deployment.

well, if you wanted to be real technical, you'd read this:

"- Utility is also based on "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?"

and realise that this means Sanaki actually has opportunity cost (technically). Why? Because forced units DO take up a unit slot - 1/X is at least used on the lord, so if the lord didn't exist, then that unit slot wouldn't be taken. Thus, Sanaki has an opportunity cost for deployment.

(For all those of you who might think I'm being serious, I'm merely bashing that rule).

[Narga_Rocks]

well, if you wanted to be real technical, you'd read this:

"- Utility is also based on "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?"

and realise that this means Sanaki actually has opportunity cost (technically). Why? Because forced units DO take up a unit slot - 1/X is at least used on the lord, so if the lord didn't exist, then that unit slot wouldn't be taken. Thus, Sanaki has an opportunity cost for deployment.

(For all those of you who might think I'm being serious, I'm merely bashing that rule).

I'm confused what your last line means for what I'm supposed to say (if I even need to say anything).

Anyway, if she didn't exist, one could argue you lose the slot anyway. One could also argue you wouldn't. If the designers never thought to make Sanaki playable, would they have made an extra slot? You can't really say.

But it is true that the game has x deployment slots and by design the lord takes one of them. If x deployment slots is maintained and the lord is removed, you'd get an extra slot.

[Anouleth]

well, if you wanted to be real technical, you'd read this:

"- Utility is also based on "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?"

and realise that this means Sanaki actually has opportunity cost (technically). Why? Because forced units DO take up a unit slot - 1/X is at least used on the lord, so if the lord didn't exist, then that unit slot wouldn't be taken. Thus, Sanaki has an opportunity cost for deployment.

(For all those of you who might think I'm being serious, I'm merely bashing that rule).

Well, the fact is, Sanaki DOES exist. Absolutely nothing is going to get around the fact that in every single game you play, Sanaki is in your Endgame team. So in this case, the question should be 'what would happen if Sanaki sat in a corner and did nothing'.

[Progenitus]

Shouldn't there be two seperate tier lists then? I don't see how we can possibly compare the efficiency and potential/Communism, especially since we are trying to clear chatpers in the least amount of time possible. Also, Rolf is a negative on communism as you conceded. So the debate on that is how Sanaki is more of a negative than Rolf is.

That is a possibility, although I think neither would be very accurate. Again, I have problems with both playstyles/ways of debating.

But there are two differences; part 4 has more enemies in its chapter than part 3 does (with a few exceptions I guess, such as 3-5), so it is easier to spread out resources. Have a Siggy/Snacky combo kill of enemies. In the desert this is easy since mobs may not even be able to hit them thanks to two range mage and canto flyer.

Other difference is resource competition. You are dividing your units into multiple parties for part 4. You are going to use every competent fighter you can have. Believe it or not, a 20/20/1 Snacky is more competent than a 20/5 Brom or a 3 Meg. She will be used in order to kill things.

Part 4 has more enemies, but your other fighters are, in general, more competent, and can take on more enemies and kill off more of them in a single round.

I don't see why Siggy/Snacky combo matters, because Siggy could be off helping other units kill enemies or doing other things. She could be flying around the desert picking up items and/or ferrying Sothe in the process. Or Siggy could be ferrying Micaiah to the southeast corner so we can recruit Stefan earlier (After all anything that doesn't fly has 2 move in the desert or is a mage and does terribad damage to Sigrun and Miccy, so they can make maneuver around the enemies).

Snacky used to kill things? Your units at this point are...

1) Guys who 1RKO (lolnaesala).

2) Guys who double and have tons of crit and/or mastery (lolhawks, trueblades, etc), so most enemies explode upon contact anyway.

3) Guys who are so tanky that they're better off running into a group of enemies instead of staying back to wall in Sanaki to maximize the number of enemies they can face (lolhaar).

Who is she helping at this point? Low tiers?

One more thing about the part 3 argument: 50%+50%=100%=kill. 50%+25%=75%=/=kill. 50%+50%+25%=overkill. So, according to your logic, when will Rolf be used and be necessary? With Rolf, you use 3 units to kill. Without him, you use 2 units.

Assuming Rolf does ~25% damage, he can be useful if your units are doing 75% or more. There are plenty of units who do that, like Mia (if she doesn't crit).

You also can't assume that our units will always be using their 1-range weapons, which is the only way they'd be doing 50+% damage. If they counter some stuff with a 1-2 range weapon (suppose there's some 1-2 range enemies mixed in with the 1-range enemies, and you decide to counter with a hand axe instead of a steel poleaxe), then it's very likely that they only do, say, 33% damage to enemies. Rolf can help chip the enemy's HP enough for someone to finish it off.

I can concede to stray hits in 4-P, but not as much in the desert, and especially not in endgame. Elaborate on how these stray hits will occur, especially on 4-E-3.

Yes, desert will matter. Sanaki can outrun enemies, but in order to attack, she has to be within attack range of enemies, which means you need to set up a couple of units in front of her so she won't die. And I fail to see how 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 will not matter.

how will these stray hits occur? How about "my team has to go slower since they have to keep Sanaki protected from danger"?

What happened to "finish as fast as you can"?

The difference is that 4-E-3 does not directly penalize you for going slower than optimal. 4-4 will; if you take too long, you'll get bogged down wtih reinforcements, delaying you even further. This is extremely annoying because 4-4 is a rout, so you have to kill off every single reinforcement (even if reinforcements pop up in 4-E-3, you simply have to kill Degh to end the chapter, so if they're not in your way you can ignore them). Or 3-5. Go too slow, and you won't be able to steal the boss' energy drop. Or 3-10. Go too slow, and your NPCs will steal your kills and/or die on you (NPC deaths reduces your BEXP, on top of reduced BEXP for not making the turn limit). etc.

What happens if you go too slow in 4-E-3? Aside from losing BEXP because you don't reach the turn limit (or you still might make it; 10 turns is pretty lenient), nothing. I guess Degh will hit you with more AoE attacks, but that can be healed off easily.

Yes, you still should go as quickly as possible. But not necessarily at a speed run pace. And 4-E-3's difficulty is nowhere near what you're suggesting, again, you said it's "arguably the hardest chapter in the game".

Since when can Rolf's ballista reach the pallies next to the boss?

He can help weaken enemies coming from the left or right sides (usually left, as the right side has generals he does crap to, and SMs that no one needs help 2HKOing), since you DO have to block them off.

Since when did we care about the AI? Since when did 1 balista shot kill a fire mage?

We care about the AI because we lose BEXP for every laguz that dies.

Rolf hitting a mage with ballista can probably help a tiger OHKO it (otherwise the PC tigers would need ~45 att to OHKO, which I'm pretty sure they don't have). There's also a very small chance that Rolf can crit kill them.

And if more far away enemies are approaching Ike? Rolf will take the pain next turn. Also, from an efficency standpoint, why do you want to give kill exp to Rolf? At most, he should be at 20/3 by the time you drop him.

It depends who did the weakening, and what enemies our tank countered, etc. For example, if it was someone like Titania and not Ike, who certainly doesn't deal as much damage as Ike, then whatever she attacked will be at about half HP rather than dead or almost dead. Therefore Rolf can help weaken it and then let another unit finish it off.

Even if that second unit was capable of finishing it off without Rolf's help, maybe it would require that unit to use a less accurate weapon, i.e. Gatrie using steel greatlance or iron lance. Instead of Gatrie finishing it off with steel greatlance and risking a miss, Rolf can help weaken it and then Gatrie can instead use the much more accurate iron lance. Or instead of Gatrie, now we can use Boyd with his (again more accurate) steel axe. etc.

Or suppose our tank lured in a sage, but didn't have 1-2 range equipped so didn't counter it. Rolf can help weaken the sage enough where another unit can kill it without taking a counter. Sure, Rolf ends up taking the counter, but he can just use a vulnerary next turn or something while your other unit can go off and do its business, like lure in other enemies or something.

On the other hand, it's unlikely that Sanaki's potshot will ever make such a difference. By part 4, every unit has masteries for random ORKOs, we have plenty of stat boosters to distribute to any lagging units, adept, godforges, eventually SS ranks, etc. OUr team at this point is not nearly in dire need of a unit who does >50% damage potshots but then needs to be walled in.

Then why the hell is Bastian so high? Efficiency/Utility wise, that is his only chapter to shine but apparently it has little to no weight. Sanaki won't affect the party negatively in 4-E-3 by potshotting with her siege tome. 4-E-3 is considered to be one of if not the hardest chatper in teh game. Therefore 4-E-3 o/w 4-5. Snacky>Bastian?

Because healing is still useful.

[nflchamp]

Hey, smash, just to ask, but do you know how many rounds Sanaki is killed in by the common enemies in 4-P and 4-3?

[Progenitus]

4-P

Doesn't really matter, since this is mostly paladins, and their hit and run means any hole in your wall of meat will let them charge in and kill her off (they 2HKO with >50 hit anyway). The nonpaladins include warriors/generals who can OHKO and SMs who can double anyway, and a couple halbs.

4-3

SMs 2HKO and double regardless of her weapon. dragonmasters OHKO easily, as well as any warrior not using crossbows. Everything else doubles her if she uses cymbaline. even if she doesn't use that, she takes so much damage from everything else that a magic user can kill her, which is pretty bad because there's a generic with purge and the boss also with purge.

Oh, and, for lulz

4-E-1

Every general OHKOs. Except like 1 if sanaki is having a good day or something.

4-E-2

SMs double her forever and everything else (except halbs, who probably still double) OHKO.

4-E-3

Yeah, siege tomes, so durability isn't an issue (offense, on the other hand, is a problem, because she doesn't double)

4-E-4

Wind and fire spirits double her until she's liek level 13. thunder spirits double her until she's about level 7. Wind spirits will actually 2RKO her until she's around level 8-9, and fire spirits 3RKO until she's around level 7. If it weren't for the spirits going after the laguz, she'd actually die in the map without wardwood. Nevermind that her offense is balls, she's liek 3RKOing if they're not on wardwood, and if they are on one she may as well not even attack.

4-E-5

Ashera's single target physical attack OHKOs Sanaki, WITH rudol gem, until she's about level 12. ffs the magic attack OHKOs her until level 9-10. She can't even attack auras or spirits either because the counter damage might put her into KO range from any of Ashera's attacks, including the AoE ones.

Meanwhile, Rolf doesn't get OHKO'd by a single thing in early-mid part 3, and only SMs double him and they're fairly rare, and they can't even 2HKO him (granted, they have like 10 crit on him, so you'd probably want to keep him away from them).

[tehnikhil]

That is a possibility, although I think neither would be very accurate. Again, I have problems with both playstyles/ways of debating.

So, then, what are we debating now?

Part 4 has more enemies, but your other fighters are, in general, more competent, and can take on more enemies and kill off more of them in a single round.

I don't see why Siggy/Snacky combo matters, because Siggy could be off helping other units kill enemies or doing other things. She could be flying around the desert picking up items and/or ferrying Sothe in the process. Or Siggy could be ferrying Micaiah to the southeast corner so we can recruit Stefan earlier (After all anything that doesn't fly has 2 move in the desert or is a mage and does terribad damage to Sigrun and Miccy, so they can make maneuver around the enemies).

Er... cross apply the "fighters are more compentent" to the "siggy can help fighters fight" argument to answer that...

As for the ferrying mickey over, aren't there actually physical enemies blockign teh way to stefan or at the very least next to him (forgot the exact mapping). Not only that, but you don't only have siggy to do that kinda work; you can use tanith, hawks, Jill, Haar, and neal to do the same thing. I guess some may rather be in the fray, but at the very least, Neal and Tanith can stay behind and hang with snacky if Siggy can't.

Snacky used to kill things? Your units at this point are...

1) Guys who 1RKO (lolnaesala).

2) Guys who double and have tons of crit and/or mastery (lolhawks, trueblades, etc), so most enemies explode upon contact anyway.

3) Guys who are so tanky that they're better off running into a group of enemies instead of staying back to wall in Sanaki to maximize the number of enemies they can face (lolhaar).

In the desert, you are going to have enemy mooks who are goin to run 2 spaces at a time IIRC. That means that even if you send someone into a mob of enemies enemy phase, they may not all get to your guys. Becuase of that, in order to finish the chapter quickly, there is no real reason not to use Sanaki. Also, as long as Sanaki and her flier kill the targeted enemy, I am pretty sure that other enemies can't reach her. Aren't most enemies in this formation (F for flier, S for snacky, and x for enemies):

F

S

x

x x

If she kills the front one, can't the other two not reach her, and therefore, she isn't in danger as long as she keeps reasonably far from them so that the others can't get her enemy phase?

How exactly are they going to be able to move up and hit her

Who is she helping at this point? Low tiers?

Here, cross apply the argument that you may be able to use weaker and more accurate weapons to kill enemies if they are weaker. Plus, if Snacky and a TB are together, instead of hoping the TB activates a skill, snacky can hit the opponent and the TB can just strike it down without a skill. Plus, since many don't like astra since it can eat good weapon uses, now you don't have to worry.

Assuming Rolf does ~25% damage, he can be useful if your units are doing 75% or more. There are plenty of units who do that, like Mia (if she doesn't crit).

Would you like to stay consistent with you arguments so I can rebut them? Didn't you say that they dealt 50% damage last post?

You also can't assume that our units will always be using their 1-range weapons, which is the only way they'd be doing 50+% damage. If they counter some stuff with a 1-2 range weapon (suppose there's some 1-2 range enemies mixed in with the 1-range enemies, and you decide to counter with a hand axe instead of a steel poleaxe), then it's very likely that they only do, say, 33% damage to enemies. Rolf can help chip the enemy's HP enough for someone to finish it off.

Explain how changing a weapon is going to drop attack from 75% to 33%?

Yes, desert will matter. Sanaki can outrun enemies, but in order to attack, she has to be within attack range of enemies, which means you need to set up a couple of units in front of her so she won't die. And I fail to see how 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 will not matter.

Like I said before, can't she still avoid enemies in that formation, and IIRC, aren't those types of formations kinda common?

For the 4-E-1/2, 4-E-2, you are killing levail to get the wishblade (which Snacky can help with by using extra Siege tome uses), and them promptly using Ike to kill the BK, aren't you? 4-E-1 is chokepoint galore. I am pretty sure you won't ahve many problems guarding Snacky and her slowing down the team? And according to your 4-E-3 comment, slowing the team doesn't matter, huh?

how will these stray hits occur? How about "my team has to go slower since they have to keep Sanaki protected from danger"?

Cross apply your argument here that getting max BEXP (turn wise) apparently doesn't matter?

The difference is that 4-E-3 does not directly penalize you for going slower than optimal. 4-4 will; if you take too long, you'll get bogged down wtih reinforcements, delaying you even further. This is extremely annoying because 4-4 is a rout, so you have to kill off every single reinforcement (even if reinforcements pop up in 4-E-3, you simply have to kill Degh to end the chapter, so if they're not in your way you can ignore them). Or 3-5. Go too slow, and you won't be able to steal the boss' energy drop. Or 3-10. Go too slow, and your NPCs will steal your kills and/or die on you (NPC deaths reduces your BEXP, on top of reduced BEXP for not making the turn limit). etc.

Well, now, according to your comment below, max BEXP doesn't matter? So isn't it moot if you have to kill more units in 4-4? More CEXP for your guys?

For your 3-5 argument, how much does Rolf help speed up the rampage? How will ballista shots substantially help fend off enemies? If that is substantial, then Sanaki's 4-E-3 is substantial too.

What happens if you go too slow in 4-E-3? Aside from losing BEXP because you don't reach the turn limit (or you still might make it; 10 turns is pretty lenient), nothing. I guess Degh will hit you with more AoE attacks, but that can be healed off easily.

What has the standard changed to for your tier list? If speed for max BEXP doesn't matter, what determines standards? You seem to have just killed the brightline here. Tell me now, if missing max BEXP isn't too slow, how slow is too slow? Also, are you or are you not refusing to acknowledge that Sanaki can be very useful for weaking enemies? Because, basically, a lot of your units will get as close to killing dragons as your part 3 guys will get to killing those generics. So, now Sanaki can play the "Rolf" role, no?

Yes, you still should go as quickly as possible. But not necessarily at a speed run pace. And 4-E-3's difficulty is nowhere near what you're suggesting, again, you said it's "arguably the hardest chapter in the game".

Tell me what is the hardest chapter then? IIRC, it is in the running with 1-3 and 3-6 and that's it? I am pretty sure that qualifies as "arguable" for being the hardest chapter.

He can help weaken enemies coming from the left or right sides (usually left, as the right side has generals he does crap to, and SMs that no one needs help 2HKOing), since you DO have to block them off.

Refer to my answer that used the word "substantial" several times and had a cross apply with Sanaki and 4-E-3

We care about the AI because we lose BEXP for every laguz that dies.

But I thought BEXP didn't matter?

Rolf hitting a mage with ballista can probably help a tiger OHKO it (otherwise the PC tigers would need ~45 att to OHKO, which I'm pretty sure they don't have). There's also a very small chance that Rolf can crit kill them.

You know what else has a very small chance of happening? That situation you set up.

It depends who did the weakening, and what enemies our tank countered, etc. For example, if it was someone like Titania and not Ike, who certainly doesn't deal as much damage as Ike, then whatever she attacked will be at about half HP rather than dead or almost dead. Therefore Rolf can help weaken it and then let another unit finish it off.

Didn't you say that many GM's can do +50% damage in this post? Therefore, once again, >50%+>50%=enough for a kill. Where is rolf in this equation? Also, cross apply this to Snacky when a unit may not activate their skill/crit like you hoped. Now Snacky can finish them off or hurt them further for another guy to kill? It works the same way as your rolf equation.

Even if that second unit was capable of finishing it off without Rolf's help, maybe it would require that unit to use a less accurate weapon, i.e. Gatrie using steel greatlance or iron lance. Instead of Gatrie finishing it off with steel greatlance and risking a miss, Rolf can help weaken it and then Gatrie can instead use the much more accurate iron lance. Or instead of Gatrie, now we can use Boyd with his (again more accurate) steel axe. etc.

But Gatrie is a tank, right? Therefore, he is probably going to be near other enemies. Having Rolf run up and help will cause those enemies to dart towards him so they don't have to suffer counterattacks. Also, if Gatrie uses an iron lance, then during enemy phase, he isn't going to be able to do as much damage to otehrs since he won't have his greatlance equipped.

Or suppose our tank lured in a sage, but didn't have 1-2 range equipped so didn't counter it. Rolf can help weaken the sage enough where another unit can kill it without taking a counter. Sure, Rolf ends up taking the counter, but he can just use a vulnerary next turn or something while your other unit can go off and do its business, like lure in other enemies or something.

Who finishes the sage?

On the other hand, it's unlikely that Sanaki's potshot will ever make such a difference. By part 4, every unit has masteries for random ORKOs, we have plenty of stat boosters to distribute to any lagging units, adept, godforges, eventually SS ranks, etc. OUr team at this point is not nearly in dire need of a unit who does >50% damage potshots but then needs to be walled in.

Exactly. Random ORKO's, not 100% ORKO. If Snacky is there, why not have her turn that random ORKO into 100%?

Because healing is still useful.

And it still merits him to be higher than snacky? I thought that that chapter was given minimal weight. Therefore, his help should be of minimal weight, right? Also, if I win that Snacky>Rolf, then Bastian>Rolf too, right?

Also, what are enemy's stats for Snacky's chapters? From what I saw, when she holds her cymbaline, she has 20-23 speed. Do enemies have 4 more?

Be careful what you say? I will use things you say against you if I find a hole or inconsistency in your logic. And don't expect me to allow you to change what you say so easily...policy debate taught me not to let things people say go that easily.

Edit: I see my F,S,x diagram is screwed up. Scoot the bottom left x left one and it is correct again.

Edited February 28, 2010 by tehnikhil

[Narga_Rocks]

Just because I can:

As for the ferrying mickey over, aren't there actually physical enemies blockign teh way to stefan or at the very least next to him (forgot the exact mapping). Not only that, but you don't only have siggy to do that kinda work; you can use tanith, hawks, Jill, Haar, and neal to do the same thing. I guess some may rather be in the fray, but at the very least, Neal and Tanith can stay behind and hang with snacky if Siggy can't.

Micky can actually dance around enemy ranges all the way to Stefan and have him help her out at the end where there are actual enemies. If Jill has been trained she has better things to do than ferrying, as do the hawks even untrained and Haar. Neal (and the hawks) have to worry about gauge so ferrying is more annoying. I'm pretty sure Neal can't even pick Micaiah up if he isn't transformed anyway. The site has his base wt as 15, but I think that's transformed since Ulki only has 20 wt transformed and (M) Ravens get +8 wt and there is no way Nealuchi weighs more than Ulki. 7 wt doesn't pick up Light Sage Micaiah.

In the desert, you are going to have enemy mooks who are goin to run 2 spaces at a time IIRC. That means that even if you send someone into a mob of enemies enemy phase, they may not all get to your guys. Becuase of that, in order to finish the chapter quickly, there is no real reason not to use Sanaki. Also, as long as Sanaki and her flier kill the targeted enemy, I am pretty sure that other enemies can't reach her. Aren't most enemies in this formation (F for flier, S for snacky, and x for enemies):

F

S

x

x x

Use code tags.

[code]
F
S

x
x x

[/code]

If she kills the front one, can't the other two not reach her, and therefore, she isn't in danger as long as she keeps reasonably far from them so that the others can't get her enemy phase?

How exactly are they going to be able to move up and hit her

We've been trying to explain 4-3 tactics to smash for a long time.

Here, cross apply the argument that you may be able to use weaker and more accurate weapons to kill enemies if they are weaker. Plus, if Snacky and a TB are together, instead of hoping the TB activates a skill, snacky can hit the opponent and the TB can just strike it down without a skill. Plus, since many don't like astra since it can eat good weapon uses, now you don't have to worry.

I wouldn't worry about weapon uses from Astra, really. Mainly I like Sanaki if she can let units avoid counters. Even guys like Skrimir fear counters when there are enough enemies waiting to attack. It's less of a problem in 4-3, though, except I'd like to not have to heal him every two turns. Sanaki can walk up, attack something, and Skrimir can go kill it. The other enemies are unlikely to be able to even reach Sanaki depending on from where you have Sanaki and Skrimir attack.

Would you like to stay consistent with you arguments so I can rebut them? Didn't you say that they dealt 50% damage last post?

He may have said "at least". Besides, even if he said precisely 50%, there are obviously some (like Mia) that do considerably more. By 3-7 Mia should be doing enough damage in 2 hits if she doesn't crit/adept that even Mist is usually able to finish off the enemy, so certainly Rolf can help out there. It is incredibly easy for a unit to be a player phase cleaner on the GMs when you have units like Mia/Ranul/Ulki on enemy phase.

Explain how changing a weapon is going to drop attack from 75% to 33%?

Mia is the one doing 75%. Units like Gatrie and Haar and Titania if they aren't doubling are often doing between 50% and 60% damage. It is actually possible at certain points along the way that a hand axe from a GM + a steel poleax for a GM won't KO the enemy and Rolf can end it. Or if you just want to raise Mist/Heather. You know Heather isn't normally doing 40% of the enemy's health (although she can after you get her a Silver Dagger through stealing in 3-7). Haar + Rolf + Mist can allow you to train up Mist or something. Besides, stick a forge on Rolf with max mt and at base level he is pulling 32 mt. With a 75% str growth he is actually capable of reaching the level of being able to combine with Titania/Gatrie/Haar to KO an enemy if they don't double.

For the 4-E-1/2, 4-E-2, you are killing levail to get the wishblade (which Snacky can help with by using extra Siege tome uses), and them promptly using Ike to kill the BK, aren't you? 4-E-1 is chokepoint galore. I am pretty sure you won't ahve many problems guarding Snacky and her slowing down the team? And according to your 4-E-3 comment, slowing the team doesn't matter, huh?

If you send Sanaki up the middle you have to hold the line. Of course, if you send a heron up the middle you must do so anyway. However, if you send her left or right she should be able to contribute quite well. And hey! there are two brave weapon users. Most units don't want to face that counter and may not have the 1-2 range required to KO.

What has the standard changed to for your tier list?

The Sanaki down standard?

Tell me what is the hardest chapter then? IIRC, it is in the running with 1-3 and 3-6 and that's it? I am pretty sure that qualifies as "arguable" for being the hardest chapter.

I vote 4-4, to be honest. 4-E-3 is one of the easiest chapters in the game depending on what you want out of it. Nosferatu tank with Micaiah in the east on the reds (she may need the cover tiles that the game has so thoughtfully provided right in front of a pack of reds) and send high avo units northwest and stick them on the wardwood right in front of the pack of whites. That blocks off the reinforcements. Before this you need a massive attack on turn 1 to make the start safe. Then you can take your time going to the boss if you want. Or just use royals to KO Dheg on turn 1 or 2 depending on whether or not you have Rafiel.

You know what else has a very small chance of happening? That situation you set up.

Actually, in 3-P I find his help quite useful (along with Shinon on the other ballista) to keep laguz alive. I don't think Cats have the mt to ORKO the mages, but I think they double and will KO with help from Rolf/Shinon. Sure, they take a counter, but at least the mage only gets off one shot instead of possibly two. Tigers I'm not sure about. They might be able to OHKO after Rolf/Shinon, I forget.

Didn't you say that many GM's can do +50% damage in this post? Therefore, once again, >50%+>50%=enough for a kill. Where is rolf in this equation? Also, cross apply this to Snacky when a unit may not activate their skill/crit like you hoped. Now Snacky can finish them off or hurt them further for another guy to kill? It works the same way as your rolf equation.

Rolf actually can OHKO many units' leavings in part 3. But yes, Sanaki can do the same. For some reason I guess smash finds it harder for Sanaki to help out without getting hit than Rolf to help out without getting attacked (since Rolf doesn't counter).

But Gatrie is a tank, right? Therefore, he is probably going to be near other enemies. Having Rolf run up and help will cause those enemies to dart towards him so they don't have to suffer counterattacks. Also, if Gatrie uses an iron lance, then during enemy phase, he isn't going to be able to do as much damage to otehrs since he won't have his greatlance equipped.

I'm pretty sure that Smash is much better at utiliting non-Sanaki units than he is with Sanaki for some reason, so don't be surprised that he's suddenly able to use Rolf well but not Sanaki.

Exactly. Random ORKO's, not 100% ORKO. If Snacky is there, why not have her turn that random ORKO into 100%?

Ever see the movie Liar Liar? If not, you probably should. There is a scene in which Jim Carrey says "Objection!", the judge says "On what grounds?", and Jim Carrey (since he can't lie at the moment) says "It could be very damaging to my case.", at which point the judge, understandably, says "Overruled".

Also, what are enemy's stats for Snacky's chapters? From what I saw, when she holds her cymbaline, she has 20-23 speed. Do enemies have 4 more?

You can easily have her not get doubled in 4-P. Even the rare enemies with 24+ AS don't have 27, so she can just use a lighter tome. Even with a 2wt tome (I guess Wind) she can frequently do enough to combo for a KO.

For the record I support Rolf > Sanaki, am undecided on Sanaki v. Bastian, and think Sanaki > Oliver and Pelleas.

[Progenitus]

So, then, what are we debating now?

tiers, of course. What kind of question is this?

Now how about you answer my question for once; which do YOU want to debate? Do you want to assume that the only playstyle is using the absolute best units and crap tiers are never used? Or do you want to assume that the two units in question are used thoroughly for the entire game? Or do you realize there's a problem with both extremes and the optimal style is something in the middle and the reason why I'm leaving this open ended is because I want other people's opinions on the matter?

As for the ferrying mickey over, aren't there actually physical enemies blockign teh way to stefan or at the very least next to him (forgot the exact mapping). Not only that, but you don't only have siggy to do that kinda work; you can use tanith, hawks, Jill, Haar, and neal to do the same thing. I guess some may rather be in the fray, but at the very least, Neal and Tanith can stay behind and hang with snacky if Siggy can't.

Why is every single flier, even the ones that aren't being used, going to the desert so we can baby Sanaki? Everyone in the other teams would love a unit who can canto in, trade with them, and canto out. For example, Titania in 4-1 attacks on player phase with killer axe, but wants to switch to a hand axe for enemy phase. Hey, we have Tanith here to fly in, trade with her so hand axe is at the top of her inventory (so that's her equipped weapon for enemy phase) and cantos out. Or a heron chants, and then your flier goes in to rescue them out of danger (someone else takes the heron and drops it so the heron can act again next turn)?

Oh wait, Tanith is stuck on miccy's route babying Sanaki so she can actually do something and not get killed in the process :(

In the desert, you are going to have enemy mooks who are goin to run 2 spaces at a time IIRC. That means that even if you send someone into a mob of enemies enemy phase, they may not all get to your guys. Becuase of that, in order to finish the chapter quickly, there is no real reason not to use Sanaki. Also, as long as Sanaki and her flier kill the targeted enemy, I am pretty sure that other enemies can't reach her. Aren't most enemies in this formation (F for flier, S for snacky, and x for enemies):

Cool story bro.

Except the problem here is that, unlike the examples I bring up which are in general blanket examples that pop up frequently and any unit I bring up in my examples can generally be replaced with any other unit (or it's the mages in 3-P that are blocking a chokepoint the laguz have to pass through so it will pop up in every single playthrough where the AI is retarded, i.e. 95% of the time), you're assuming that there is only one enemy within a 3 tile radius of Sanaki that is also not using 1-2 range (if it was it would counter miss empress for massive damage) AND if there are any enemies 4 spaces away they're not using 1-2 range weapons, AND you're assuming that Sanaki + underleveled shitty fliers can finish this enemy off.

Yes, this might happen once every couple of turns. Good for you Sanaki. pat yourself on the back.

Shit Rolf has to go through will happen liek every turn, every playthrough.

Or on a more important note, Rolf can actually be trained into a competent fighter. Sure, he blows dick for early part 3 if we now try to baby him, but he can eventually double enemies like paladins, generals, and sages (probably by 3-5. 20/9 Rolf with Silencer has 39 att/22.6 AS, and a max mt forge is only 1 less att. For reference, 20/16 Gatrie with a max mt + whatever forge has 42 att/23 AS, 20/19 Titania with forge has 42 att/22.5 AS. Do note that the latter two are str capped, Gatrie is spd capped, and Titania gains exp ridicuously slow, while Rolf has a 75 str growth and 45 spd growth and is still the lowest level unit on the team). Sure, he still can't counter on enemy phase, but at least his offense becomes noticeable, so he's not a total drag on the team, if at all.

If we give him a crown when he caps spd, that's 45 att/28 AS. Since most enemies in 4-1 have 24 spd (with a few having 25, and generals/sages having 22-23), he doubles tons of enemies, ORKOs stuff like halbs and warriors (pretty damn respectable), 3HKOs and doubles generals, and with 3-range meaning he never takes counters and can position himself easier so he's not in the way on enemy phase. Even if we have to expose him to enemies, he can take 2-3 hits without dying.

By 4-E-1 he doesn't even need the double bow, because he has a billion str. A silver forge, which has 20 mt, gives him liek 56 att. He 2HKOs most generals and doubles all of them, since they have 50-52 HP and 30-32 def, and any he doesn't kill is left crying at 2 HP, and if for some reason you didn't use shinon, we may as well throw the double bow on Rolf. 61 att. Every general dies, and now he has 1-range too. You know who can do that?

- SHinon with double bow

- Caineghis

- Giffca

- Tibarn

That's a mighty long list.

Sure, Rolf is a detriment overall, because he sucks in early part 3 and then because of no enemy phase + average durability + requires one of the crowns you get from the DB or 3-11, he's below average overall, but when he's trained, at least he can do something. He can turn into a competent, contributing member of the team.

Does Sanaki ever become competent? I wish she could. Sanaki with two robes and three dracoshields (I'm pretty sure that's all you can get in the game, lmao) has 42 HP/16 def, which means it still takes only 37 att to 2HKO. That means if a high att enemy like a warrior or general (or wyverns in 4-3) attack her, then a normal scrub like a halb can kill her. SMs still double her, although they probably 3HKO, which is still pretty bad given that she got 2/3rds of my robes and every single dracoshield. Sanaki with two speedwings still loses speed to a crown'd Rolf. lol. way2phail

Here, cross apply the argument that you may be able to use weaker and more accurate weapons to kill enemies if they are weaker.

This is part 4. We have more money than we did in early part 3 (we can't even forge in 3-P and 3-1). We don't have to rely on inaccurate weapons like steel poleaxes. We can instead use forges. We also have access to things like killer weapons, brave weapons, etc, that were in very low supply (or didn't even exist at all) in early part 3.

Plus, if Snacky and a TB are together, instead of hoping the TB activates a skill, snacky can hit the opponent and the TB can just strike it down without a skill. Plus, since many don't like astra since it can eat good weapon uses, now you don't have to worry.

Assuming the trueblade didn't already kill the enemy on enemy phase, and if they didn't the enemy will be at a low enough HP for anyone to kill it off, yeah.

Or instead of using snacky, I used any random shitty unit that I dragged along with this team to make the potshot if I really needed to. ffs something like base level calill with arcfire does >10 damage, which will generally be enough for your trueblade to 2HKO.

Would you like to stay consistent with you arguments so I can rebut them? Didn't you say that they dealt 50% damage last post?

Of course if I try to use a blanket statement to address every GM's individual offense some are going to be wrong, especially since different enemy classes have different stats. The general idea, of course, is that most units at this point are 2RKOing, some having more room to spare (like said mia, who with a steel blade is 3-4HKOing and doubling, resulting in liek 75% damage or something in one round), and some falling below 50% damage (like Oscar if he doesn't double).

Sorry, but I'm not going to hold your hand and do all your dirty work for you. If you want to argue Rolf down, bring up stats.

You have a very bad habit of attributing one example to every situation. For some reason, whenever I say "GMs typically do 50% damage", you assume EVERYONE is doing 50% damage.

Cross apply your argument here that getting max BEXP (turn wise) apparently doesn't matter?

Your strawmen are cute, but unfortunately doesn't win you a debate.

If you recall your argument correctly, you stated that 4-E-3 was, quote, "arguably the hardest chapter in the game". I simply pointed out that was false, and there are other chapters that are "harder". Why? Those chapters have a greater sense of urgency. In ALL chapters you certainly want to go as quickly as possible. But 4-E-3 lacks the same urgency. What happens if you don't speed blitz 4-E-3? You miss out on BEXP, if any, but this happens if you go to slow for any chapter. What happens if you don't speed blitz 4-4? You not only miss out on BEXP, you ALSO get bogged down by reinforcements, delaying the chapter even further. What if you don't speed blitz 3-5? You'll probably miss out on the boss' energy drop. What about chatpers with time limits like 3-1 and 3-3? You obviously can't even beat the chapter if you go too slow.

Again, I'm not saying speed doesn't matter. I'm saying 4-E-3 is not the hardest chapter in the game because it lacks urgency.

Don't take this out of context again.

Tell me what is the hardest chapter then? IIRC, it is in the running with 1-3 and 3-6 and that's it? I am pretty sure that qualifies as "arguable" for being the hardest chapter.

Urgency? Anyway, who cares? Talking about "hardest chapter" is pointless anyway.

For starters, as much as we debate about the tier player being perfect, it is not this "tier player" who plays the game, but us, people who all have different playstyles and varying levels of skill at this game. This means some players will find chapters hard, while others will find that same chapter to be easy, and vice versa.

For example, a very defensive player may find 4-4 to be very hard, because he moves too slowly to beat the chapter in time before the reinforcements come in. On the other hand, he might find 3-6 to be relatively easy, since that map requires you to be fairly defensive, which falls in line with his playstyle.

However, a very offensive player may find the opposite to be true. He may find 4-4 to be fairly easy (at least easier than the defensive player), because he moves fast enough to wipe out the enemies before the reinforcements come. But he may have trouble with 3-6, because he plays too aggressively and kills too many enemies at once, which ends up getting one of his characters killed.

And fo course, you'll get some people who are very good at strategy games and may find every single chapter to be easy, while you'll get newbies who find every single chapter to be hard.

So who are we going to base "difficulty" of the chapter on? Whose playstyle and level of skill? All that will do is add more unnecessary arguments to a tier list that doesn't need it. I personally find 1-3 to be really easy. Am I going to say "lol, fuck 1-3, it carries no weight because it's easy shit"? I'm bound to get tons of people who disagree with me.

You know what else has a very small chance of happening? That situation you set up.

Actually, in 3-P, there's a chokepoint the laguz have to pass through (it's the 2-tile path that leads to the big area in the north where both the GMs and the NPCs merge together), where they have to punch through two generals and two sages behind those generals.

This means unless you get lucky and Skrimir attacks a general (which usually doesn't happen because the AI is retarded), you'll have laguz stuck in front of the generals, ready to get fried by the nearby mages, let alone getting hit by the generals. Even after the laguz punch through the generals, they still have to attack the sages, and if the mage is at full HP they're going to be taking a big counterattack. It doesn't really help that this is around the time some cats start untransforming (and some tigers untransforming a turn later), which makes them sitting ducks for anything that attacks.

I know this for a fact, the laguz ALWAYS get fucking stuck there for 2 or so turns, which means a couple of laguz end up dying.

Rolf on a ballista...

1) Helps weaken the sages, so that once the laguz kill the general(s), they can kill the sage without taking a counter.

2) Can instablick the sage, ridiculously reducing the chances of laguz dying.

But I thought BEXP didn't matter?

Your strawmen are nice, but please keep them out of the debate.

Who finishes the sage?

fgsfds

Instead of refuting the logic behind the point (which is still valid), you instead are complaining about WHO KILLS THE SAGE?

Okay, I'll humor you and answer your question so you can't whine about me dodging your laughable question. Okay? Open your ears, this is a very long answer.

Anyone.

ibyounitpickthatmistcan'tkillthesage

Now how about you actually, you know, answer the passage you quoted, rather than asking a useless question that doesn't refute anything?

Didn't you say that many GM's can do +50% damage in this post? Therefore, once again, >50%+>50%=enough for a kill. Where is rolf in this equation? Also, cross apply this to Snacky when a unit may not activate their skill/crit like you hoped. Now Snacky can finish them off or hurt them further for another guy to kill? It works the same way as your rolf equation.

They do 50%+ damage if...

1) They use their most inaccurate weapons.

2) They aren't swinging around 1-2 range weapons in case stuff like snipers come around, or if they don't want to eat a counter on player phase.

But Gatrie is a tank, right? Therefore, he is probably going to be near other enemies. Having Rolf run up and help will cause those enemies to dart towards him so they don't have to suffer counterattacks.

1) It doesn't necessarily have to be Gatrie. It could be anyone. Boyd. Soren. Ike. Titania. Which means it doesn't necessarily have to be a unit ready to "run to enemies and tank shit". Stop thinking that whenever I bring up an example, ONLY the unit in the example is capable of doing it. It's an EXAMPLE, not an extremely specific situation.

2) This isn't 4-P or 4-3 where you want to spread out your entire team because enemies are everywhere all over the map and it's the fastest way to rout the chapter. This is 3-P and 3-1 where Gatrie is litereally the only person who's not dying (Ike hates sages, Tits is like 4HKO'd, Shinon is 5HKO'd but sucks at 1-range, and people like Boyd and Oscar are 3HKO'd and Boyd gets doubled by SMs, etc). This means we're not overextending ourselves and sending everyone which way, since even your tanks want to stay relatively close to each other. Therefore it's easier and more natural for us to make walls for him.

I'm not saying Sanaki can never get walls and Rolf can. The problems sanaki has are...

A) Your PCs in part 4 want to spend less time walling in a unit with poor durability who doesn't do enough on player phase to make it worth walling her in., unlike early part 3 where people like Gats and Tits actually might want to wall in Rolf/Soren/etc. occasionally because their chip damage makes a difference.

B) You have fewer PCs in 4-P and 4-3 to even use to wall in Sanaki, as opposed to early part 3 for Rolf.

C) If a single enemy breaches your wall of meat and reaches Sanaki, she's dead, while Rolf can at least take a hit.

Sanaki's walls have to be tighter than Rolf's and make up a greater portion of your available PCs, with damage output that, relative to the team, is not much better, if at all. THAT is why Rolf's potshots are better (let alone Rolf actually becoming a capable fighter if we train him).

Also, if Gatrie uses an iron lance, then during enemy phase, he isn't going to be able to do as much damage to otehrs since he won't have his greatlance equipped.

If we decided to let Gatrie attack that enemy with his steel greatlance and he whiffs, we have much bigger problems on our hands than "lol what's gatrie going to use to counter the enemies on the next phase?" We have a problem like "oh fuck this enemy is still alive and can run off and kill rhys/Mist/Soren/insert PC at low HP".

Exactly. Random ORKO's, not 100% ORKO. If Snacky is there, why not have her turn that random ORKO into 100%?

Aside from the fact that you completely ignored everything else that passage stated (this is a really bad habit you have), you again assume the enemy didn't already die on enemy phase, and no one really cares if snacky can kill this enemy off because anyone else cna finish the job.

And it still merits him to be higher than snacky? I thought that that chapter was given minimal weight. Therefore, his help should be of minimal weight, right? Also, if I win that Snacky>Rolf, then Bastian>Rolf too, right?

Healing in 4-E.

He can also attack once in awhile because he doesn't get ORKO'd by the entire map. this includes 4-E-3 where he can actually take a hit against dragons, because he doesn't instantly explode upon getting hit by them (unlike miss empress).

Also, what are enemy's stats for Snacky's chapters? From what I saw, when she holds her cymbaline, she has 20-23 speed. Do enemies have 4 more?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19003&view=findpost&p=874177

Be careful what you say? I will use things you say against you if I find a hole or inconsistency in your logic. And don't expect me to allow you to change what you say so easily...policy debate taught me not to let things people say go that easily.

lol, getting cocky are we

If you didn't strawman or take arguments out of context I might actually be scared

[tehnikhil]

True, I was being an asshole with arguing and making strawmen arguments. I am sorry about that and will try not to do that again. Well, I now acknowledge the reasoning for Rolf>Sanaki.

Edited February 28, 2010 by tehnikhil

[dondon151]

Smash, I don't think you've even used Sanaki before. It is not difficult at all to have her dance around with a backup on 4-3 and kill enemies. TheoryFE can only go so far until it fails in practice.

[Progenitus]

Smash, I don't think you've even used Sanaki before. It is not difficult at all to have her dance around with a backup on 4-3 and kill enemies. TheoryFE can only go so far until it fails in practice.

And I've successfully used shitty units like Meg and Edward and Rolf on HM before. dem for top tier mirite

[Interceptor]

And I've successfully used shitty units like Meg and Edward and Rolf on HM before. dem for top tier mirite

What does that have to do with anything? Making Meg/Eddie/Aran/Rolf useful on Hard Mode is just a matter of babying, which anyone can do easily, since you can take as much time as you want. What dondon (and others) is talking about is using Sanaki while playing efficiently, which requires some tactical chops.

[Progenitus]

What does that have to do with anything? Making Meg/Eddie/Aran/Rolf useful on Hard Mode is just a matter of babying, which anyone can do easily, since you can take as much time as you want. What dondon (and others) is talking about is using Sanaki while playing efficiently, which requires some tactical chops.

So you've clearly never even used any of those units, have you?

lol, and people are telling me that I haven't even used specific units before.

[Interceptor]

So you've clearly never even used any of those units, have you?

I actually did a HM run that used Eddie, Meg, and Fiona, plus scrubs in other armies (like Astrid), all at the same time. I am quite familiar with what it takes to make any or all of them useful.

Point is: they are all growth units with some measure of potential. Making them useful is just a function of feeding them enough kills, which is something that most fools can manage to do. Absent artificial restrictions, you can take as much time to do this as you please.

lol, and people are telling me that I haven't even used specific units before.

Well, dondon's statement was incomplete, he should have given you an option, since there are actually two possibilities. He came to the conclusion that your inability to understand how to use Sanaki was due to you never having seriously used her, but it's also possible that you're just mediocre when it comes to tactics/strategy.

[Progenitus]

I actually did a HM run that used Eddie, Meg, and Fiona, plus scrubs in other armies (like Astrid), all at the same time. I am quite familiar with what it takes to make any or all of them useful.

Point is: they are all growth units with some measure of potential. Making them useful is just a function of feeding them enough kills, which is something that most fools can manage to do. Absent artificial restrictions, you can take as much time to do this as you please.

You suck at this game if you can't train them without slowing your team down.

Well, dondon's statement was incomplete, he should have given you an option, since there are actually two possibilities. He came to the conclusion that your inability to understand how to use Sanaki was due to you never having seriously used her, but it's also possible that you're just mediocre when it comes to tactics/strategy.

translation: you suck at this game if you can't use *insert random unit*.

Hey look, a child can make that kind of argument. Are you going to make something substantial or are you going to troll some more?

Oh wait, I forgot, this is Barragan, lord of the Fire Emblem Empire, and he won't listen to anyone unless they do it in front of him in a kneeling position.

[nflchamp]

I find it funny that smash is mad at Int despite the fact that the rest of people who discuss Sanaki are the ones who constantly show how her durability isn't so big a deal that it makes her negative.

[Narga_Rocks]

I find it funny that smash is mad at Int despite the fact that the rest of people who discuss Sanaki are the ones who constantly show how her durability isn't so big a deal that it makes her negative.

Why? We are the ones that go into massive detail so he can't really act like we don't back it up. Interceptor, on the other hand, apparently chose not to repeat what others said. So, smash could make those kind of statements because Interceptor didn't bother to explain Sanaki. It's perfectly logical if you make the assumption that smash is in this to make people look bad rather than discuss units honestly. Not "funny" in any way.

[nflchamp]

Why? We are the ones that go into massive detail so he can't really act like we don't back it up. Interceptor, on the other hand, apparently chose not to repeat what others said. So, smash could make those kind of statements because Interceptor didn't bother to explain Sanaki. It's perfectly logical if you make the assumption that smash is in this to make people look bad rather than discuss units honestly. Not "funny" in any way.

Yes, but I find it funny that smash chose to complain only about Int saying it when everyone else here has tacitly said the exact same thing through explanations.

[Interceptor]

You suck at this game if you can't train them without slowing your team down.

Ahh, to live in your world of absolutes.

There is training, and there is serious training. All of those units have some measure of usability if you just gum things to near-death for them to finish off as you are pushing forward, but they will not actually reach their potential this way, particularly in the case of someone like Fiona. You can actually make them useful by taking the time to do so... it's your prerogative.

Any fool can do either, though.

translation: you suck at this game if you can't use *insert random unit*.

If you can't get the same results, there's not a whole lot of other possible conclusions. People are making arguments using enemy stats, drawing crude placement charts, and generally explaining how to use Sanaki effectively... but the last step has to be the one where you take your fingers out of your ears and stop humming the 1812 Overture to yourself.

Hey look, a child can make that kind of argument. Are you going to make something substantial or are you going to troll some more?

No point in re-inventing the wheel. There are plenty of good arguments posted already. I was just indicating where your logic was terrible.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yes, but I find it funny that smash chose to complain only about Int saying it when everyone else here has tacitly said the exact same thing through explanations.

I suppose it is funny, but I've already given a possible explanation for why he chose to pick on Interceptor rather than anyone else. Well, that and the fact that it is Interceptor and he'll take any perceived opportunity to make Int look bad.

[Anouleth]

You suck at this game if you can't train them without slowing your team down.

Considering this is an efficiency list that runs on the principle of net utility, and Edward is in Lower-Mid, Meg is in Bottom and Fiona is below bottom, I would draw the conclusion that you think that they slow your team down. But apparently, now they don't. Are you saying you're thinking about moving them up?

(And all three of them need a LOT of training. Edward needs to gain 17 levels in 10 chapters to be 20/01, Meg needs 18 levels in 6 chapters, Fiona needs 12 levels in 2 chapters. Fiona in particular needs a lot of levels - if she's 19 or lower in 3-6, she has a serious chance of being doubled and 1-rounded by Cats.)