How does this board feel about these arguments?

[Shadow Mir]

I'm talking about endgame here. With the low Str of Trueblades they are not a logical option to take for me. Since laguz gems come in play it's far easier to use Cats and Ravens who have better stats all around. The only thing you'll lose is that first turn to use the gem but after that they'll rock.

EDIT:

From my previous post it indeed seems I am recommending Ravens and Cats. I am however not doing this. I'm stating that Cats and Ravens are better options then Swordmasters while they furfill almost the same role. (High Speed, Dodgetanks)

If you want my recommendation I'dd say go with units with more strength. in the endgame there are few enemies with ample Speed that the high amount of a Trueblade, Cat or Raven is needed. Reavers, Dracoknights and Seraph Knihgts are more recommended. Also Marksmen because of that 3 range.

Except for the fact that there are better options for endgame in general than Cats and Ravens. Also, Trueblades have something that cats and ravens (and non-dragon laguz in general) don't. It's called "ranged combat". Besides, there are much better options for the laguz gems than cats and ravens. Like Reyson. Also, laguz level up sloooooowly.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Just call me AL]

Trueblades are definitely better options than someone like Makalov, despite the only options not worth your time being named Edward and Lucia.

Also: Laguz Gems? Okay, care to explain to me why a laguz not named Reyson or Giffca would want one? Because it seems to me that those two would make a far better use of a Laguz Gem than someone who will NEVER reach max level like Vika for example. (In fact, pretty much any Laguz except maybe Giffca or a royal won't reach max level, but Reyson can refresh your guys, so I don't see anything wrong with giving him one.)

And as Ether pointed out, TBs got access to Wyrmslayers, 1-2 range (thanks to Wind Edges/Storm Swords/Tempest Blades/Alondite). and have a far better critical rate than Cats and Ravens. What's not to like about that? It's certainly better than what Cats and Ravens are offering.

[Silith]

You guys. Again I'm not trying to say you should use Cats and Ravens just that if you were thinking of using a Trueblade that you might as well change your plans to a Cat or Raven.

Sure the Wyrmslayer is great for the Dragon level and the Ranged weapons for the spirits but the cats and Ravens have their advantages too. Higher stats and better mastery skills with better activation rates. The only opponent the Swordmaster would really be better against is Dheginsea since the Wymslayer gives that sweet 18 extra Might while mastery skills get blocked.

The only arguement to use a Trueblade over a Cat or Raven to me is the fact you've used the 2 Laguz Gems on 3 better Laguz already. Reyson is indeed a top candidate for this as are the other powerhouses such as Giffca, Janaff and Ulki, Hell maybe Ena for that support on the front lines with less danger.

[Florete]

The only arguement to use a Trueblade over a Cat or Raven to me is the fact you've used the 2 Laguz Gems on 3 better Laguz already.

What about the part where three Trueblades will already be good while the other two are salvageable and 4/5 Cats/Ravens are not salvageable and the last won't even be that good?

[Silith]

What about the part where three Trueblades will already be good while the other two are salvageable and 4/5 Cats/Ravens are not salvageable and the last won't even be that good?

Which part would you concider that? You mean the last 2 chapters where all enemies have ranged attacks?

[Shadow Mir]

Which part would you concider that? You mean the last 2 chapters where all enemies have ranged attacks?

The part where Ranulf is mediocre and Lethe, Lyre, Nealuchi, and Vika are ALL lol-worthy.

You guys. Again I'm not trying to say you should use Cats and Ravens just that if you were thinking of using a Trueblade that you might as well change your plans to a Cat or Raven.

Sure the Wyrmslayer is great for the Dragon level and the Ranged weapons for the spirits but the cats and Ravens have their advantages too. Higher stats and better mastery skills with better activation rates. The only opponent the Swordmaster would really be better against is Dheginsea since the Wymslayer gives that sweet 18 extra Might while mastery skills get blocked.

The only arguement to use a Trueblade over a Cat or Raven to me is the fact you've used the 2 Laguz Gems on 3 better Laguz already. Reyson is indeed a top candidate for this as are the other powerhouses such as Giffca, Janaff and Ulki, Hell maybe Ena for that support on the front lines with less danger.

Never mind the fact that unlike cats and ravens, Trueblades aren't sitting ducks on E. Phase (especially once 4-E-3 rolls around).

So? It isn't worth a damn if they're not even going to get close to reaching them since laguz level up sloooooooowly. Also, there's almost no chance in hell that laguz are getting to SS strike by endgame unless you abuse them.

Or if I'm not using any laguz (or Reyson), I might consider selling them. As for Ena, since dragon gauge drops so slowly, I could just give her stones and olivi grass.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Richter Renard

[nflchamp]

Also, there's almost no chance in hell that laguz are getting to SS strike by endgame unless you abuse them.

Volug, Ranulf, Lethe, and even Lyre can make SS strike by endgame without much problems if you use them. Doesn't reflect any on how good they are (namely, Lethe and Lyre suck), but they'll reach SS strike.

[Silith]

The part where Ranulf is mediocre and Lethe, Lyre, Nealuchi, and Vika are ALL lol-worthy.

That would up till they reach level 30 adn they get their mastery skill, up till now the discussion has been about endgame. If you'dd concider a cat or raven you should have them at level 30 by now. (Main reason why Nealuchi and Vika aren't being fielded is their crappy availability before endgame) Even without much timeloss you can train laguz untransformed so Lethe, Lyre and Ranulf should be able to get 30 before endgame especially if you use only 1 of those 3 (5 if you count the ravens).

Also why would Ravens and Cats be sitting ducks on E-phase? You leave the frontline tanking to somethign with 1-2 range like a Tomahawk Dracoknight or a Sentinel/Seraph Knight with the Wishblade. Cats and Raven just one-round an enemy with adapt and their mastery skill and make sure they don't get attacked too often by enemies. Not that they are likely to hit. Ravens can even cantho behind the frontlines.

If you want to sell the Laguz Gems. Sure go ahead. Add to the heap of money you'll already have by the start of endgame.

If I forget to adress any of your points please tell.

[Shadow Mir]

That would up till they reach level 30 adn they get their mastery skill, up till now the discussion has been about endgame. If you'dd concider a cat or raven you should have them at level 30 by now. (Main reason why Nealuchi and Vika aren't being fielded is their crappy availability before endgame) Even without much timeloss you can train laguz untransformed so Lethe, Lyre and Ranulf should be able to get 30 before endgame especially if you use only 1 of those 3 (5 if you count the ravens).

Also why would Ravens and Cats be sitting ducks on E-phase? You leave the frontline tanking to somethign with 1-2 range like a Tomahawk Dracoknight or a Sentinel/Seraph Knight with the Wishblade. Cats and Raven just one-round an enemy with adapt and their mastery skill and make sure they don't get attacked too often by enemies. Not that they are likely to hit. Ravens can even cantho behind the frontlines.

If you want to sell the Laguz Gems. Sure go ahead. Add to the heap of money you'll already have by the start of endgame.

If I forget to adress any of your points please tell.

With them leveling up at a snail's pace transformed and dying quick untransformed... I feel I'm better off not bothering.

Spirits. 1-2 range. 20 move. 'Nuff said. The thought of having a sitting duck on my team when all enemies have 1-2 range... Forget it. Ravens may be able to canto behind the frontlines, but that does squat when you're facing enemies with 20 move.

[Just call me AL]

Why would we want to ditch units who are likely to reach 20/20/20 that have Wyrmslayer and ranged sword utility, as well as a +20% critical bonus on top of a Mastery Skill that, despite not being the best one out there, is still pretty useful, in favor of units who can't fight until they transform, level up at a snail's pace while transformed, die very quickly when untransformed, stuck to 1 range, and aren't very likely to even reach max level level, let alone level 30 by endgame?

You're overrating the usefulness Cats and Ravens have, and underrating the usefulness TBs have. Also: News Flash: Cats and Ravens are never gonna go beyond 32 Str either WHILE transformed, Ranulf's the only one who can go beyond that at max level, but the chances of him reaching that point are as slim as a piece of hair. And both Alondite and the Tempest Blade have the same Mt as a Cat's SS Strike. How are you gonna convince us that what Cats and Ravens offer is better than what TBs offer, when it's really the opposite?

Edited February 22, 2010 by LittleAl

[Narga_Rocks]

With them leveling up at a snail's pace transformed and dying quick untransformed... I feel I'm better off not bothering.

Spirits. 1-2 range. 20 move. 'Nuff said. The thought of having a sitting duck on my team when all enemies have 1-2 range... Forget it. Ravens may be able to canto behind the frontlines, but that does squat when you're facing enemies with 20 move.

Actually, 11 characters + Reyson can stand on a wardwood diamond and you can safely place up to 5 units inside in such a way that spirits can't get at them. So you need to deploy 16 units or have 12 with 1-2 range. Of course, the question of whether this is something you should even do comes up. After all, you could just assault the boss on turn 1 with Rafiel or turn 2 without Rafiel.

[Florete]

Which part would you concider that? You mean the last 2 chapters where all enemies have ranged attacks?

And this is helping Cats/Ravens how? At least Trueblades have access to 1-2 range (Alondite, Tempest Blade).

That would up till they reach level 30 adn they get their mastery skill, up till now the discussion has been about endgame. If you'dd concider a cat or raven you should have them at level 30 by now.

Not necessarily. Transformed Laguz experience gain is twice that of Beorc, so level 30 Laguz is like a 20/20 Beorc, and even in NM you shouldn't be reaching that high by Endgame, at least not until ~4-E-4.

Even without much timeloss you can train laguz untransformed so Lethe, Lyre and Ranulf should be able to get 30 before endgame especially if you use only 1 of those 3 (5 if you count the ravens).

I'd rather use units that can be trained without paper durability, thanks.

Also why would Ravens and Cats be sitting ducks on E-phase? You leave the frontline tanking to somethign with 1-2 range like a Tomahawk Dracoknight or a Sentinel/Seraph Knight with the Wishblade. Cats and Raven just one-round an enemy with adapt and their mastery skill and make sure they don't get attacked too often by enemies. Not that they are likely to hit. Ravens can even cantho behind the frontlines.

And yet somehow, Trueblades not having 1-2 range in Endgame (made funnier by the fact that it isn't true) is a problem!

[Silith]

I'm going to try to address all your statements one by one. Once again if I forget one please tell me.

First of all I think Red Fox made a little typo since she seems to have her numbers down right most of the time. I'm going to explain how levels and exp work in this game.

A unit gains exp based on level. If you are higher level you gain less exp, such a thing is to be expected. A tier 2 unit is automaticaly calculated as having +20 levels and a Tier 3 as having + 40 levels. So a level 12 Marshall is counted as a level 52 no matter if you crowned him/her at an early level.

Laguz are different. They can get up to level 40 according to the game stats but they have a transformed level as well. When transformed their level is being counted as *2 Just like most of their other stats. So to get a Laguz trained to level 30 while transformed would indeed mean the same as leveleing a Beorc to 20/20/20. (there is a finer math behind this where it proves it's actually a bit less but the difference is maybe 1 to 2 levels (so 20/20/18 at the least).

So LittleAl and Red Fox of Fire are right about your Laguz never reaching that point before endgame if you train them Transformed.

With only half the stats throwing them into the thick of fray is suicide so again Richeter AL and Fox are right on this.

Now for the next statement to be able to be understood fully I must first explain yet another thing about this game.

On hard Mode combat experience is low. To be able to keep up the game rewards you with easier gameplay if you pick a few units i your army and train them instead of trying to use everyone. This means you'll have plenty of deployment spots on your team free. Have two of them filled besides your regular team. One with the laguz and one with a healer. I doubt many of you use 2 healers at the same time in your main assault group so there should be one to spare for your laguz training.

Since combat exp is so low one more or less enemy for your main army to slaughter isn't going to matter especially if you can level your Laguz in a good way by taking him apart.The tactic is simple you let the enemy hit your laguz and in your turn you heal your laguz. Your main army can move on to complete the objective meanwhile. Even if the set-up takes 2 turns you'll have an average of 8 turns left to counter on the enemy phase increasing strike and exp while not increasing the number of turns the chapter will take. Each blow will generate a few Exp ( I believe it'll be around 12-15 in 3-4 but up to 30 in the early Part 4 chapters. This is possible since a level 30 laguz untrasformed is only calculated as a level 20/10 Beroc unit which sould get verry high exp right now since the game is designed for your team to be around the start of tier 3 by now (if not a bit further). Even calculating at the average with only 21 exp a turn and a measly 8 turns a chapter you have 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-F and 2 Chapters in early part 4 to deal with. 8*21*8= 1344 exp. A good 13 levels. With the exception of Mordecai all laguz joining in 3-4 could be level 30 by now. Add in the likely kill in the meantime and you'll get that level 30 pretty easily, again without any turns lost on the playthough compared to when you don't do this.

Now when you pick an enemy for this it's best to take an enemy with defense lwo enough to damage in untransformed state while not having a crit too high. Luck isn't affected by transformations so your laguz should be fine if you don't pick a Swordmaster. Halbediers and Warriors are good choices.

Lyre will have problems damaging things with her base str so I highly recommend to not pick her but Ranulf, Kysha, Lethe and Mordecai are easy to use this way. Ulki and Janaff are near level 30 when they come into play but they too can benefit from Untransformed training reaching up to 34-35 before Endgame. Mordecai and Ranuf are the easiest of the beast tribe to train this way.

Reading this all might seem like a hassle but it's pretty simple and easy to do. If you don't want to then don't it won't impact the gameplay really much.

Before I continue I'dd recommend putting the laguz in question in Tibarn's group since you have high capacity you can put the slayer skills on and have an easy time plowing through the enemies even untransformed at chapter 4-5.

The next point is Bonus Experience. And this is where I'm goign tot talk about somethign I'm not sure is true. We all know that Bexp gives 3 stats up and it's a great way to fill those low growths up after the high ones have capped. With the exception of Lyre who has 3.3 stats a level on combat exp all laguz I mentioned before have close to 3 stats a level (with Ranulf, Ulki and Janaff being below 3 a level). Having a stat capped will ofc increase the gain a lot but not having capped anything will not cost the laguz many stats. now comes the uncertain part but I believe that bexp is counted as the unit being x1.5 his/her level. So a level 18 Laguz would be counted as a level 7 Tier 2 when it comes to bexp. A level 27 would need ((50x27)+50)x2= 2800 BEXP to level going up to ((50x45)=50)x2=4600 exp at level 30. Gaining 2500 exp a map on average you can easily spec a good 5-7K on a laguz unit making you reach that 30 more easily while leaving enough for the rest of your team through Slow-play Bexp or abusing capped stats and low growths.

(looked it up and Laguz indeed gain 1.5x level on Bexp)

So now I have concluded how easy it can be to have a level 30 Laguz on your team by endgame. Time for the other problems.

First that of LittleAl. He states that besides Ranulf Cat's and Ravens are only going to get to the same Strength as a Trueblade while having the same Might on thier weapons. I assume he checked the averages on Serenes Forest for these units and didn't calculate bexp into play where you cap the other stats or even the possible booster. A unit reaching max level in a team usually has all thier usefull offensive stats capped even if he/she wouldn't through Cexp levels alone on average. giving Laguz double the advantage from Boosters makes them even more prime candidates and in this way they are good to use ( or salvageable as some would say). With a cap of 18(36) cats do get a higher offensive then Trueblades while Ravens get one point less then the male Trueblades and are equal to the female ones.

Now Slize has said that Trueblades have a bigger offense with Adapt but he forgot that Adapt can easily be placed on Laguz as well. Laguz have ahigher capacity so they can stack more skills. With 40 and 46% respectively on their mastery skills which are guranteed OHKO's. With Adapt in play one can calculate with correct Chancecalculations that the chance an enemy will be totally wasted to be a good 99,4%. (the 0,6 % only if two normal attacks don't kill as is the case on bishops).

now the biggest problem appears (the one you've all been reading this for) the 1-2 range enemies. In your turn you knock one out maybe 2 if you vigor but then it's the enemy's turn and they walk up to you and whack away from range. Something that wouldn't happen to your Truebalde as with their own ranged weapon they can counter attack. For the first two cahpters the amount of ranged units is pretty low. Siwth some Snipers and a couple of Short axes and Spears being thrown. I figure you can knock them all out before the enemy phase comes into play. I doubt anyone will have complaints about this since the main problem are the dragons and the spirits. For the dragons I already explained you can run behind your ranged wall if needed be and even then there are too few Walking dragons that you can't just knock them all out on your own phase or stay out of range on theirs.

On the spirits with 20 move and 1-2 attacks. I actually find it had to believe that you would have an army without someone incapable of a ranged attack. Do you stack every beorc unit with Hand axes and Javelins? because after the Wishblade and Spear and the Tomahak for axe users there aren't many good options. Ofc you can take a Seraph Knight and have her solo the map while Ike and Miccy stand in the corner clinging to thier Shade and Stillness (Ena or a Maxed Meg withAlondite can solo too as I've proven). But if you deploy your entire team (minus Gareth and the one you benched for Nasir) then someone will always be the unlucky target on the enemy phase. And unless you load in the Hand axes and Javelins they will go for someone theiy can't counter. Someone said they'ddd rather use Giffca over a cat or raven. While I would suggest that too since Giffca is a better option versus the bosses de actually does worse on the enemy phases. With a higher chance of getting hit and only a cap of 24 resistance (compared to the 32 of the cats and 36 of the ravens).

As I said unless your entire team can counter (and no Shade and Provoke won't help since the counterability goes over that) someone WILL get attacked. As a amatter of fact the only ones I can think of to be better off taking the hits are probably Micaiah, Laura and Sanaki with thier 40 Res cap, potentially not since the Hit% on them will be higher and they have easy access to 1-2 range weapons.

Again if I forgot something or you have the feeling I twiddled around the point somewhere tell me and I will try to address any problems you might have.

[Jaybee]

Ehh, I'll skip out the parts we know already, since we all already know about exp calculations in this game. The people talking here aren't noobs, and understand the mechanics of this game well enough, thank you.

(there is a finer math behind this where it proves it's actually a bit less but the difference is maybe 1 to 2 levels (so 20/20/18 at the least).

Erm, no. The only laguz that's good and leveling at a decent enough rate before part 4 is Mordecai. Ranulf's leveling like a 20/20/12 unit. That's... pretty damn slow. By part 4 enemies are considered to be 3rd tier so then he might get some levels, but then his epic gauge means that he can't even take on that many enemies anyway.

To be able to keep up the game rewards you with easier gameplay if you pick a few units i your army and train them instead of trying to use everyone. This means you'll have plenty of deployment spots on your team free. Have two of them filled besides your regular team. One with the laguz and one with a healer. I doubt many of you use 2 healers at the same time in your main assault group so there should be one to spare for your laguz training.

Since combat exp is so low one more or less enemy for your main army to slaughter isn't going to matter especially if you can level your Laguz in a good way by taking him apart.The tactic is simple you let the enemy hit your laguz and in your turn you heal your laguz. Your main army can move on to complete the objective meanwhile. Even if the set-up takes 2 turns you'll have an average of 8 turns left to counter on the enemy phase increasing strike and exp while not increasing the number of turns the chapter will take. Each blow will generate a few Exp ( I believe it'll be around 12-15 in 3-4 but up to 30 in the early Part 4 chapters. This is possible since a level 30 laguz untrasformed is only calculated as a level 20/10 Beroc unit which sould get verry high exp right now since the game is designed for your team to be around the start of tier 3 by now (if not a bit further). Even calculating at the average with only 21 exp a turn and a measly 8 turns a chapter you have 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-F and 2 Chapters in early part 4 to deal with. 8*21*8= 1344 exp. A good 13 levels. With the exception of Mordecai all laguz joining in 3-4 could be level 30 by now. Add in the likely kill in the meantime and you'll get that level 30 pretty easily, again without any turns lost on the playthough compared to when you don't do this.

Now when you pick an enemy for this it's best to take an enemy with defense lwo enough to damage in untransformed state while not having a crit too high. Luck isn't affected by transformations so your laguz should be fine if you don't pick a Swordmaster. Halbediers and Warriors are good choices.

Lyre will have problems damaging things with her base str so I highly recommend to not pick her but Ranulf, Kysha, Lethe and Mordecai are easy to use this way. Ulki and Janaff are near level 30 when they come into play but they too can benefit from Untransformed training reaching up to 34-35 before Endgame. Mordecai and Ranuf are the easiest of the beast tribe to train this way.

Blatant favouritism, moving on. And if you're having one healer dedicated to laguz healing, then you may need another one to heal the main force. For example, if Ike's low on HP, and you want him to take out an enemy, but there's a chance that he won't survive, then heal him first. You could be screwed without that healer.

Before I continue I'dd recommend putting the laguz in question in Tibarn's group since you have high capacity you can put the slayer skills on and have an easy time plowing through the enemies even untransformed at chapter 4-5.

Or alternatively I can 2-turn this chapter, or train up some people that WON'T be useless for endgame (DB members, any other underleveled units you want) And then the enemies here are liek level 24, and the only "good" laguz that comes here is Ranulf since Ulki, Janaff, Mordy and Volug are busy raping the desert's ass off. And Tibby doesn't need any training at all.With the number of enemies here, it's pretty easy for Ranulf to untransform and then he gets massacred. Also, dragons have 1~2 range, which puts Ranulf in danger and even if the dragon misses, Ranulf loses his gauge which makes him untransform faster. Yay.

The next point is Bonus Experience. [...] Having a stat capped will ofc increase the gain a lot but not having capped anything will not cost the laguz many stats. now comes the uncertain part but I believe that bexp is counted as the unit being x1.5 his/her level. So a level 18 Laguz would be counted as a level 7 Tier 2 when it comes to bexp. A level 27 would need ((50x27)+50)x2= 2800 BEXP to level going up to ((50x45)=50)x2=4600 exp at level 30. Gaining 2500 exp a map on average you can easily spec a good 5-7K on a laguz unit making you reach that 30 more easily while leaving enough for the rest of your team through Slow-play Bexp or abusing capped stats and low growths.

Or I could use that BEXP for buffing up weaker members, to cap other unit's stats, or to save it for 4-E where Kurth (who actually has 1~2 range, which is really needed) gets a dump and does some good in endgame. Besides, Kurth consumes it like a 20/10 unit. Your level ~32 Ulki/Janaff aren't that good for endgame, considering a usual team goes like this:

Cain

Giffca

Tibarn

Naesala

Nailah

Shinon

4 other units who are decently leveled.

Laguz do have high stats, but they are a huge liability from 4-E-3 onwards They never have 1~2 range, so they can't counter every single enemy that does, and they have a gauge that does deplete somewhat fast, unless you're a Cat, in which case it goes down uber fast, or if you're a lion/dragon, where you're fine. They'll be magnets on enemy phase, and once they untransform, it's bye-bye for them.

First that of LittleAl. He states that besides Ranulf Cat's and Ravens are only going to get to the same Strength as a Trueblade while having the same Might on thier weapons. I assume he checked the averages on Serenes Forest for these units and didn't calculate bexp into play where you cap the other stats or even the possible booster. A unit reaching max level in a team usually has all thier usefull offensive stats capped even if he/she wouldn't through Cexp levels alone on average. giving Laguz double the advantage from Boosters makes them even more prime candidates and in this way they are good to use ( or salvageable as some would say). With a cap of 18(36) cats do get a higher offensive then Trueblades while Ravens get one point less then the male Trueblades and are equal to the female ones.

Except that this higher offense means shit when you can't counter the opponent. TBs equip a Tempest Blade and they're smashing every enemy that attacks them. Cats/Raven stand there and get hit while losing gauge.

Now Slize has said that Trueblades have a bigger offense with Adapt but he forgot that Adapt can easily be placed on Laguz as well. Laguz have ahigher capacity so they can stack more skills. With 40 and 46% respectively on their mastery skills which are guranteed OHKO's. With Adapt in play one can calculate with correct Chancecalculations that the chance an enemy will be totally wasted to be a good 99,4%. (the 0,6 % only if two normal attacks don't kill as is the case on bishops).

They only have a higher capacity if you neglect to Satori Sign them, which is only good if you want them to weaken. Otherwise their space is about the same as a normal beorc's space, unless they're royal.

now the biggest problem appears (the one you've all been reading this for) the 1-2 range enemies. In your turn you knock one out maybe 2 if you vigor but then it's the enemy's turn and they walk up to you and whack away from range. Something that wouldn't happen to your Truebalde as with their own ranged weapon they can counter attack. For the first two cahpters the amount of ranged units is pretty low. Siwth some Snipers and a couple of Short axes and Spears being thrown. I figure you can knock them all out before the enemy phase comes into play. I doubt anyone will have complaints about this since the main problem are the dragons and the spirits. For the dragons I already explained you can run behind your ranged wall if needed be and even then there are too few Walking dragons that you can't just knock them all out on your own phase or stay out of range on theirs.

On the spirits with 20 move and 1-2 attacks. I actually find it had to believe that you would have an army without someone incapable of a ranged attack. Do you stack every beorc unit with Hand axes and Javelins? because after the Wishblade and Spear and the Tomahak for axe users there aren't many good options. Ofc you can take a Seraph Knight and have her solo the map while Ike and Miccy stand in the corner clinging to thier Shade and Stillness (Ena or a Maxed Meg withAlondite can solo too as I've proven). But if you deploy your entire team (minus Gareth and the one you benched for Nasir) then someone will always be the unlucky target on the enemy phase. And unless you load in the Hand axes and Javelins they will go for someone theiy can't counter. Someone said they'ddd rather use Giffca over a cat or raven. While I would suggest that too since Giffca is a better option versus the bosses de actually does worse on the enemy phases. With a higher chance of getting hit and only a cap of 24 resistance (compared to the 32 of the cats and 36 of the ravens).

Considering how people are rushing to kill Dheg off, there might not be enough time for a wall. And these units are a liability due to the fact that they cannot counter on enemy phase. They WILL untransform, and then they WILL die. Other units may get hit, but they will at least counter the enemies, and their mastery won't activate unless it's a mage, and then it's probably Flare, which heals you instead. Oh yeah, let's see what good equipment for 1~2 range we get, shall we?

3-13 Tempest Blade

4-4 Tempest Blade

Alondite

2-E Tomahawk

3-12 Tomahawk

Wishblade

3-12 Spear

Forged Hand Axes/Javelins

SS spells

Miscellaneous: Bolting. If you actually got it.

Basically, TBs > Cats/Ravens, because of 1~2 range. And the cats/ravens either suck or have a hard time levelling up.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Lloyd Irving

[Original Alear]

Also: Laguz Gems? Okay, care to explain to me why a laguz not named Reyson or Giffca would want one? Because it seems to me that those two would make a far better use of a Laguz Gem than someone who will NEVER reach max level like Vika for example. (In fact, pretty much any Laguz except maybe Giffca or a royal won't reach max level, but Reyson can refresh your guys, so I don't see anything wrong with giving him one.)

I don't know that that's entirely true. "Uses" of laguz gems is pretty pointless to talk about since you have 15 uses of them between 4-3 and 4-E. And you can't use laguz gems in both 4-3 and 4-4 and 4-E since you'd have to send it to storage in 4-3 to be able to use it in the other chapters. That's 15 uses divided between 7 chapters. Additionally, reyson is only in 1 of those chapters and giffca isn't in any. That means that we have 14 laguz gem uses to divide between reyson and giffca over the course of 5 chapters, which means that we have 4 uses going completely unused. Additionally, I'd argue that it's more efficient to use a laguz gem to replenish your gauge once during 4-E-3 since the chapter shouldn't take enough turns that you have to use a gem's infinite bar, which means we have 6 uses going completely unused.

I'm not saying they don't make the best use of the gem, but that's kind of pointless to talk about when there's more gem than they could ever reasonably use. I guess you could use all the remaining uses among kurthnaga and ena, and admittedly I usually let kurth use one during 4-e-1 and 4-e-2 because I like using him, but it's probably better to let them use grass or gems some of the time.

[Colonel M]

Laguz do have high stats, but they are a huge liability from 4-E-3 onwards

I actually object to that. They are probably a minor liability in 4-E-3, but depending on who you take they basically make Endgame that much easier (Giffca with two rigged Spd levels doubles Auras for sure without the help of Nasir. Naesala and Tibarn are actually a great help for denting Auras due to their high natural Spd. I'll agree that Tibarn does that better though (Naesala needs some levels + SS Strike, the latter which requires Naesala to be doing a lot of work).

They could have a minor penalty because they don't counterattack on the enemy phase of 4-E-4 and 4-E-5, but that does not make them a huge liability. They help in other areas.

[Shadow Mir]

On hard Mode combat experience is low. To be able to keep up the game rewards you with easier gameplay if you pick a few units i your army and train them instead of trying to use everyone. This means you'll have plenty of deployment spots on your team free. Have two of them filled besides your regular team. One with the laguz and one with a healer. I doubt many of you use 2 healers at the same time in your main assault group so there should be one to spare for your laguz training.

Since combat exp is so low one more or less enemy for your main army to slaughter isn't going to matter especially if you can level your Laguz in a good way by taking him apart.The tactic is simple you let the enemy hit your laguz and in your turn you heal your laguz. Your main army can move on to complete the objective meanwhile. Even if the set-up takes 2 turns you'll have an average of 8 turns left to counter on the enemy phase increasing strike and exp while not increasing the number of turns the chapter will take. Each blow will generate a few Exp ( I believe it'll be around 12-15 in 3-4 but up to 30 in the early Part 4 chapters. This is possible since a level 30 laguz untrasformed is only calculated as a level 20/10 Beroc unit which sould get verry high exp right now since the game is designed for your team to be around the start of tier 3 by now (if not a bit further). Even calculating at the average with only 21 exp a turn and a measly 8 turns a chapter you have 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-F and 2 Chapters in early part 4 to deal with. 8*21*8= 1344 exp. A good 13 levels. With the exception of Mordecai all laguz joining in 3-4 could be level 30 by now. Add in the likely kill in the meantime and you'll get that level 30 pretty easily, again without any turns lost on the playthough compared to when you don't do this.

Now when you pick an enemy for this it's best to take an enemy with defense lwo enough to damage in untransformed state while not having a crit too high. Luck isn't affected by transformations so your laguz should be fine if you don't pick a Swordmaster. Halbediers and Warriors are good choices.

Lyre will have problems damaging things with her base str so I highly recommend to not pick her but Ranulf, Kysha, Lethe and Mordecai are easy to use this way. Ulki and Janaff are near level 30 when they come into play but they too can benefit from Untransformed training reaching up to 34-35 before Endgame. Mordecai and Ranuf are the easiest of the beast tribe to train this way.

Blahblahblah, blatant favoritism. And in the event I'm only using one healer, why would I want to dedicate him (or her) to laguz healing when the main force might need it more??

Before I continue I'dd recommend putting the laguz in question in Tibarn's group since you have high capacity you can put the slayer skills on and have an easy time plowing through the enemies even untransformed at chapter 4-5.

More blatant favoritism. I'd rather give Beast/Bird/Dragonfoe to someone who doesn't have to be trained in a state where they have the durability of a wet paper bag. I'd rather give that juicy exp to someone who WON'T be worthless in endgame (DB members). Also, considering that the only GOOD laguz who's guaranteed on Tibarn's route is Ranulf... And with a huge number of enemies coming at you, Ranulf will end up reverting and dying. Not good. And there are several dragons about, and if Ranulf is targetted, there goes even more gauge.

The next point is Bonus Experience. [...] Having a stat capped will ofc increase the gain a lot but not having capped anything will not cost the laguz many stats. now comes the uncertain part but I believe that bexp is counted as the unit being x1.5 his/her level. So a level 18 Laguz would be counted as a level 7 Tier 2 when it comes to bexp. A level 27 would need ((50x27)+50)x2= 2800 BEXP to level going up to ((50x45)=50)x2=4600 exp at level 30. Gaining 2500 exp a map on average you can easily spec a good 5-7K on a laguz unit making you reach that 30 more easily while leaving enough for the rest of your team through Slow-play Bexp or abusing capped stats and low growths.

Even more blatant favoritism. I'd rather spend that BEXP to buff up a weaker unit or to cap other units' stats.

Laguz may have high stats when transformed, but that means squat when they're a massive liability from 4-E-3 onwards. They're locked to 1 range, which means they just sit there while they have bull's-eyes painted on them that says "Attack me!". And unless you're a lion or dragon, that WILL take a toll on your gauge. And once your laguz reverts, it's all over for them.

First that of LittleAl. He states that besides Ranulf Cat's and Ravens are only going to get to the same Strength as a Trueblade while having the same Might on thier weapons. I assume he checked the averages on Serenes Forest for these units and didn't calculate bexp into play where you cap the other stats or even the possible booster. A unit reaching max level in a team usually has all thier usefull offensive stats capped even if he/she wouldn't through Cexp levels alone on average. giving Laguz double the advantage from Boosters makes them even more prime candidates and in this way they are good to use ( or salvageable as some would say). With a cap of 18(36) cats do get a higher offensive then Trueblades while Ravens get one point less then the male Trueblades and are equal to the female ones.

And LittleAl is right. He may not have counted stat boosters and BEXP, but stat boosters can go to just about anyone, as can BEXP. Also, cats may have a cap of 36, but on average, unless your name is Ranulf, you likely aren't hitting it. And higher offense means jack if you aren't countering, which is the case with laguz once 4-E-3 hits. Trueblades can equip a Tempest Blade or Alondite and pound their attackers into dust. Cats and ravens, in addition to doing squat when attacked from range, lose gauge.

Now Slize has said that Trueblades have a bigger offense with Adapt but he forgot that Adapt can easily be placed on Laguz as well. Laguz have ahigher capacity so they can stack more skills. With 40 and 46% respectively on their mastery skills which are guranteed OHKO's. With Adapt in play one can calculate with correct Chancecalculations that the chance an enemy will be totally wasted to be a good 99,4%. (the 0,6 % only if two normal attacks don't kill as is the case on bishops).

Except Trueblades don't need to transform to make use of Adept. And even if transformed, they're either no better than Trueblades (in the case of cats) or barely better (in the case of ravens) at using it. And their capacity advantage is only really exident if you DON'T use a Satori Sign on them.

now the biggest problem appears (the one you've all been reading this for) the 1-2 range enemies. In your turn you knock one out maybe 2 if you vigor but then it's the enemy's turn and they walk up to you and whack away from range. Something that wouldn't happen to your Truebalde as with their own ranged weapon they can counter attack. For the first two cahpters the amount of ranged units is pretty low. Siwth some Snipers and a couple of Short axes and Spears being thrown. I figure you can knock them all out before the enemy phase comes into play. I doubt anyone will have complaints about this since the main problem are the dragons and the spirits. For the dragons I already explained you can run behind your ranged wall if needed be and even then there are too few Walking dragons that you can't just knock them all out on your own phase or stay out of range on theirs.

On the spirits with 20 move and 1-2 attacks. I actually find it had to believe that you would have an army without someone incapable of a ranged attack. Do you stack every beorc unit with Hand axes and Javelins? because after the Wishblade and Spear and the Tomahak for axe users there aren't many good options. Ofc you can take a Seraph Knight and have her solo the map while Ike and Miccy stand in the corner clinging to thier Shade and Stillness (Ena or a Maxed Meg withAlondite can solo too as I've proven). But if you deploy your entire team (minus Gareth and the one you benched for Nasir) then someone will always be the unlucky target on the enemy phase. And unless you load in the Hand axes and Javelins they will go for someone theiy can't counter. Someone said they'ddd rather use Giffca over a cat or raven. While I would suggest that too since Giffca is a better option versus the bosses de actually does worse on the enemy phases. With a higher chance of getting hit and only a cap of 24 resistance (compared to the 32 of the cats and 36 of the ravens).

In the event I'm rushing to kill Dheginsea, there won't be enough time to try to form a wall. And again, they're high-priority targets on enemy phase thanks to their inability to counter. Other units will be able to counter them, but unless it's a mage their mastery won't activate. And if it IS a mage, they can heal with Flare. In either case, cats and ravens lose out. Also, it doesn't matter how high your cap is if you aren't hitting it. Regarding good 1-2 range equipment, we get:

Tempest Blades

Tomahawks

Spears

Alondite

Wishblade

SS tomes

Forged Hand Axes/Javelins

In the end, TBs pwn the mess out of cats and ravens. And cats/ravens either suck or have a hard time leveling up. In fact, only Ranulf doesn't suck out of all the cats and ravens combined. Hell, I can go so far as to sat that not only do cats and ravens in general suck (except Ranulf), they also have a hard time leveling up!

Edited February 22, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Original Alear]

As I said unless your entire team can counter (and no Shade and Provoke won't help since the counterability goes over that) someone WILL get attacked. As a amatter of fact the only ones I can think of to be better off taking the hits are probably Micaiah, Laura and Sanaki with thier 40 Res cap, potentially not since the Hit% on them will be higher and they have easy access to 1-2 range weapons.

I seem to see a lot of people underrating laguz in 4-E-4 based on this. I don't think it's correct to do so. Have you guys ever brought Shinon w/ innate provoke to 4-E-3? My experience has been that he will often get targeted - over the 1-range laguz - by spirits. I've also put provoke on mages (micaiah) and seen the same thing happen, despite countering and having enough res to take no damage.

I do agree laguz are mediocre during 4-E-3, however I haven't found that it's hard to use flying non-royals very effectively during player phase and canto them away to keep other units from countering. As long as you're fairly agressive during player phase it should work out.

Laguz may have high stats when transformed, but that means squat when they're a massive liability from 4-E-3 onwards. They're locked to 1 range, which means they just sit there while they have bull's-eyes painted on them that says "Attack me!". And unless you're a lion or dragon, that WILL take a toll on your gauge. And once your laguz reverts, it's all over for them.

However, even if we take giffca and reyson we have at least 6 gem uses, and reyson and giffca can probably make it through 4-E-3 without a gem. (I doubt you need more than one use of a laguz stone to keep them transformed, and you have to use a turn to consume an item either way). So that's 8. Which means a total of 8 laguz can be used regardless of gauge consumption. And I am pretty sure that spirits can be manipulated easily to prefer 1-2 rangers to 1-rangers based on my own experience.

Edited February 22, 2010 by SeverIan

[Shadow Mir]

I seem to see a lot of people underrating laguz in 4-E-4 based on this. I don't think it's correct to do so. Have you guys ever brought Shinon w/ innate provoke to 4-E-3? My experience has been that he will often get targeted - over the 1-range laguz - by spirits. I've also put provoke on mages (micaiah) and seen the same thing happen, despite countering and having enough res to take no damage.

I do agree laguz are mediocre during 4-E-3, however I haven't found that it's hard to use flying non-royals very effectively during player phase and canto them away to keep other units from countering. As long as you're fairly agressive during player phase it should work out.

However, even if we take giffca and reyson we have at least 6 gem uses, and reyson and giffca can probably make it through 4-E-3 without a gem. (I doubt you need more than one use of a laguz stone to keep them transformed, and you have to use a turn to consume an item either way). So that's 8. Which means a total of 8 laguz can be used regardless of gauge consumption. And I am pretty sure that spirits can be manipulated easily to prefer 1-2 rangers to 1-rangers based on my own experience.

...Eh. I don't bother with Provoke.

Hmmm... I'd rather not rely on tactics that require being aggressive on Player Phase when against enemies like dragons.

You say that as if it's okay to use a laguz-heavy team. Most laguz have garbage resistance. And standing there watching as they do nothing while they get ganged up on just screams "Not cool".

Edited February 22, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Reikken]

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh well. When the topic creator makes no posts since number 7, things happen.

[Anouleth]

...Eh. I don't bother with Provoke.

Hmmm... I'd rather not rely on tactics that require being aggressive on Player Phase when against enemies like dragons.

You say that as if it's okay to use a laguz-heavy team. Most laguz have garbage resistance. And standing there watching as they do nothing while they get ganged up on just screams "Not cool".

You 'don't bother with Provoke', so it's irrelevant now?

And on any team, you are going to have 1-range dudes. What good 1-2 range weapons even exist? Tempest Blade (if you don't mind the bad accuracy), Peshkatz, Ragnell, Alondite, and Wishblade. And magic, but Endgame magic users suck anyway. And even Peshkatz isn't very good, and Tempest Blade is fourth in line to be blessed after Alondite, Vague Katti, and Wyrmslayer, so we may not use it. So only our Alondite and Wishblade units will have good 1-2 range anyway.

As for Laguz having bad resistance, Wardwood exists, as do Pure Waters, Barrier, and Kurthnaga. Laguz resistance isn't even that bad - level 36 Ranulf has better resistance transformed than 20/20 Mia, 20/20 Nolan, and has the same resistance as 20/20 Jill. In addition, the Laguz stat doubling allows Laguz to make very good use of a Talisman, because it's effectively +4 RES.

(The only major issue for a laguz-heavy team is transformation, since you only have two laguz gems. )

[Shadow Mir]

You 'don't bother with Provoke', so it's irrelevant now?

And on any team, you are going to have 1-range dudes. What good 1-2 range weapons even exist? Tempest Blade (if you don't mind the bad accuracy), Peshkatz, Ragnell, Alondite, and Wishblade. And magic, but Endgame magic users suck anyway. And even Peshkatz isn't very good, and Tempest Blade is fourth in line to be blessed after Alondite, Vague Katti, and Wyrmslayer, so we may not use it. So only our Alondite and Wishblade units will have good 1-2 range anyway.

As for Laguz having bad resistance, Wardwood exists, as do Pure Waters, Barrier, and Kurthnaga. Laguz resistance isn't even that bad - level 36 Ranulf has better resistance transformed than 20/20 Mia, 20/20 Nolan, and has the same resistance as 20/20 Jill. In addition, the Laguz stat doubling allows Laguz to make very good use of a Talisman, because it's effectively +4 RES.

(The only major issue for a laguz-heavy team is transformation, since you only have two laguz gems. )

I didn't feel like arguing the point, that's all.

Personally, I don't bother with blessing the Vague Katti (or Urvan, for that matter). Wyrmslayers... I personally think blessing them is overrated, seeing as it's only good for one chapter and its usefulness drops like a sack of bricks after said chapter. I'm also not the type to use laguz in endgame. (Besides the forced ones, that is.)

...You got me there, but there's only one talisman in the game.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Colonel M]

So Reikken, now that we have answered your question, what are your feelings about it?

[Zkirsche]

Most laguz have garbage resistance.

Level 30 Lyre has more res than 20/20/20 Mia. Both base Ranulf, Nealuchi and base Lethe all have equal res to a 20/20/20 Mia. A level 18 Vika has equal res to a 20/20/20 Mia. So all the characters you said sucked have better res than a unit you call awesome and then rip on them for thier resistance. I love how unbiased you are.