FE9 Tier List

[Narga_Rocks]

Only Calill comes with Meteor. The rest would require using something like Sleep + Disarm in order to get it (or somehow force them to switch to their other tome and steal it). The first one is 17-4 which is full of swamp terrain to where he is (you have to go through the swamp or around the trees in a U shape).

It's an absurd amount of fun figuring out how to get that tome in 17-4 with full uses on it, though. In order to make him equip his 1-2 range I always make sure nothing is within 3-10 range. I'm not actually certain if that is a requirement, though. I remember in 1-E in RD I had Vika about 4 away from the Meteor mage and Sothe 2 away with 1range equipped and it attacked Sothe rather than Vika. Anyway, in 17-4 it required two shove chains since I used Marcia to guard Volke (and clear a spot for him) while Volke was unequipped at 1 range to the meteor tome holder and Marcia had a javelin or some 1-2 range weapon equipped (attacked on PP with 1-range weapon, had Volke trade to set her up with 1-2 range, most likely). Muarim shoved and Mordy smited Marcia, a bunch of other units shoved Volke and then got picked up by mounted units and carried outside the 10 range of the meteor mage.

[Crimson_Edge]

As a consequence of player imperfection, Ike's advantage isn't "lopsided" because we have no idea what the rest of the team is going to look like. The player won't always be using the best units, so even units like Titania after the initial chapters may go unused. No unit is guaranteed a spot on the team, so indeed the team does not factor into Ike's unit slot opportunity cost advantage.

As for the "maximal room for error" clause, I think it was more fitting with the maximal there. Yes, certainly the player could be stupid enough to lose all non-Ike units and be unable to complete the game without using prepromoted units/Nasir, but the chances of this happening are very slight--perhaps < 0.1%. Similarly, the chances that the player is both smart enough and aware enough (for yes, both conditions are required) to play perfectly are very slight--perhaps < 0.1% again. All possibilities should be accounted for, but unlikely scenarios shouldn't hold as much weight as more probable situations.

There are two points to this tier list: the first is to bring in fresh pespectives and discussion on old issues; and the second is to define new, more standard criteria (obeyed by the large majority of the players of this game) and apply the tier list to an actually relevant playthrough. I mean, practically speaking, I don't look at growths before playing this game. I play the game itself.

[CATS]

I believe that simply acknowledging that there is room for error more effectively conveys the mindset than using the specific adjective "maximal." Though this is not necessarily the intent, the word "maximal" does carry a connotation of something that is extreme or severe, leading people to think that we are primarily considering extreme or severe errors in gameplay when determining positions, when in reality these are not given much weight. Even with the adjective removed, the mentality of the condition is still easily conveyed, and people are not so easily misled.

[CATS]

Later on, Boyd can be better than Ike + another unit because if you use the other unit too much the team's level drops. The player could be raising a full team, or it could be raising a smaller team.

Two things can happen with whatever extra unit Ike's team has.

First situation: Ike can one-round the enemy on his own. Kieran has no advantage anyways. Ike's extra unit doesn't have to do anything unless you want it to.

Second situation: Ike cannot one-round the enemy but Kieran can. The extra unit that Ike brings along can injure the enemy, and Ike can kill it. No experience is lost, and indeed you gain more this way. Kieran's team only gets the Exp for a kill, but Ike's team gains the Exp for an injury and the Exp for a kill.

It is possible that the extra unit Ike allows will one-round while Ike can't, in which case Ike can't get the Exp and one-round the enemy, but his combat performance is still the same as Kieran's or better, so it doesn't matter. There is no Exp rank, so Exp gains have no intrinsic worth. Better combat performance is better.

Later in the game, maybe you could reduce Ike's level by 1 or something to account for whenever this rare situation occurs, but in exchange there are other situations where Ike is way better than Kieran; for example when you actually need as many units attacking and killing as you can possibly get, or when you need a meatshield (Ike's team can use its extra unit to meatshield, but Kieran's team cannot use its base level Ike to meatshield), or etc. The maximum damage output and maximum amount of attacks that can be given out/absorbed by Ike's team is considerably higher. Ike (or someone else, it doesn't matter) being 1 or 2 levels lower later in the game will not at all even equal the advantage of having a whole extra unit available.

In the case of a smaller team, comparing Oscar to Ike + Calill (or whatever) means that on the one turn where you can't kill everything nearby without Calill, she does something (It's a small team, so someone not part of that team is clearly not being used fully). Otherwise, she does nothing. If Oscar > Ike, then surely Oscar > Ike + one attack from another unit. The gap couldn't be that close.

I don't follow you. How is Oscar able to do more damage than Ike + Calill when extra damage is actually needed? When you don't need Calill to do anything, i.e. the situation is simple or easy enough that Ike's advantage wouldn't matter even if you utilized it, obviously Oscar's advantages aren't making a difference either.

[Interceptor]

Had no time to post this weekend, but I have a little now. Hopefully these last six pages have been a lesson for the insular group that put the list together in the first place, on the merits of a proper vetting process. You have more work to do, since the OP still doesn't clearly identify what the units are ranked by. I'm not raising the issue because I don't know, I'm raising it because the OP doesn't say clearly.

On the same topic: there are different kinds of subjectivity. I point this out because it doesn't seem like anyone else bothered to (if someone did, I missed it). Tier debating is obviously full of things that cannot be quantified to specificity, like the worth of availability, or healing/stealing/Vigor, or an offensive advantage vs a defensive one, flying, resource use, etc. All of that stuff is a mess in any kind of tier list, but the inability to nail down precise specifics is not fatal because there is an over-arching goal that all of those things tie into, like S-ranking or minimizing turn counts. There is enough to bite on that reasonable people can argue about the ballpark worth of something as it applies to the ranking goal, which moves units around and creates substantive discussion. This is the first kind of subjectivity.

The second kind of subjectivity is the definitional sort, that's not directly anchored to the ranking goal. Or in other words, the arguments that are conducted purely with dueling opinions, the ones leave an aftertaste of bullshit in your mouth. See: any argument about whether something is "good", or what "efficient" means when it's not already stipulated in advance, or whether <ill-defined imaginary player> would do <XYZ>, or the "likelihood" of some event that is not the result of the RNG.

The non-perfect player guideline in this list is a subjective factor of the second kind, masquerading as one of the first. It has elements that can be adjudicated in terms of the tier list goals in at least some minimal fashion, such as ignorance of undocumented item behaviors, recruitment requirements, hidden item locations, reinforcement positions, and so forth. But it also has elements where you just have a potential clash of opinions on the definition of something, with no obvious way to resolve it. You can tell that in the way that Reikken responded to my question with the word "reasonable", or that extreme examples of behavior were dismissed with an assertion that the player is not "stupid", reasonableness and stupidity both being things that people can disagree on the meaning of without it being anchored to the ranking goals.

If this didn't come up during cabal negotiations, that just suggests that the ones in charge were like-minded enough that it didn't cause a problem. The OP is a little bit better now, but still falls far short.

P.S.: belated congratulations CATS, I hope that the irony of your position is not lost on you.

[Narga_Rocks]

If this didn't come up during cabal negotiations, that just suggests that the ones in charge were like-minded enough that it didn't cause a problem.

They do seem pretty like minded, which means points are missed. Anyone see the House episode (Season 4, Episode 4) where he fired the guy (Henry) who thinks just like him since there wasn't any point in having someone echo your thoughts?

The OP is a little bit better now, but still falls far short.

You have to admit, though, it does better than another tier list around here at setting up rules and attempting to follow them. I think Smash's list could have benefited from discussions with CATS and Reikken and Paperblade and Solid before he posted it. Well, I guess I kind of forced the need for rules on him, so he didn't have time to do that. Another plus for this list, though: their first post here had rules from the beginning.

[CATS]

P.S.: belated congratulations CATS, I hope that the irony of your position is not lost on you.

Don't worry, it isn't. I found my position in this matter to be highly amusing.

lulz, seen that episode. Ofcourse, that's where actually posting the list on the forums comes in.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why CATS is >>> Smash:

I point out a potential reality (or, you could say, echo another person pointing out a potential reality). CATS says:

Ofcourse, that's where actually posting the list on the forums comes in.

Smash's response to me/Interceptor?

And that's why I respect CATS a fair amount (whatever he may think of me from my actions in whatever posts he's seen).

[Progenitus]

It's a joke response to a joke user I have no respect for.

If WJC has seen the same things I've seen about you and int, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't respect you either.

Like the time where in a team of Mia + ulki vs Titania vs Ulki, the latter team's Ulki suddenly lost the ability to BEXP or use a satori sign for whatever reason and was forced to use wrath (rather than, you know, take adept, since wrath sucks).

Or the time where you assumed that Mia was in a thicket 24/7 for 3-P (or 3-1; one of those chapters), or how Mia is magically never facing any generals, ever (because, you know, her offense against them in those chapters is a problem).

Or how apparently Mia has better offense than Janaff, and we're denying Janaff an energy drop, because he one rounds anyway.

I mean, I could go on, but this is the FE9 tier list topic, not "hey everyone, look how silly narga is" topic, so I'm going to just let it be, and let you (and most likely int as well) nerdrage one more time before we get back to the topic at hand.

[Inui]

Andrew W.K. is on Red Eye right now, smash. I hope you're watching Fox News!

I kinda agree with smash, and I also respect CATS immensely. :P

So much for tier discussion, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's a joke response to a joke user I have no respect for.

If WJC has seen the same things I've seen about you and int, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't respect you either.

Like the time where in a team of Mia + ulki vs Titania vs Ulki, the latter team's Ulki suddenly lost the ability to BEXP or use a satori sign for whatever reason and was forced to use wrath (rather than, you know, take adept, since wrath sucks).

Or the time where you assumed that Mia was in a thicket 24/7 for 3-P (or 3-1; one of those chapters), or how Mia is magically never facing any generals, ever (because, you know, her offense against them in those chapters is a problem).

Or how apparently Mia has better offense than Janaff, and we're denying Janaff an energy drop, because he one rounds anyway.

I mean, I could go on, but this is the FE9 tier list topic, not "hey everyone, look how silly narga is" topic, so I'm going to just let it be, and let you (and most likely int as well) nerdrage one more time before we get back to the topic at hand.

So, let's see. If I respond to each one of your points and explain how you misrepresent the argument or take it out of context or any other explanation, that's nerdrage. And if I let it be, then that's probably going to be seen by you as me being unable to defend it all and you being right.

Hmm. I suppose at the very least it's a good way for you to set this thing up and feel like a winner afterwards.

[Dat Nick]

As much as I'm enjoying the Smash and Narga show, I really think we should return to the point of this topic.

...Is what I would say if this topic had a point to begin with, seeing as how all it is is a retarded-down version of the OTHER FE9 tier list.

[Interceptor]

If WJC has seen the same things I've seen about you and int, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't respect you either.

WJC would not only need to see what you saw, but he'd have to have the same perception of events that you do, and therein lies the problem: I doubt that he would. You are a revisionist historian, and you collect grudges and half-understood misconceptions like a magpie collects shiny objects for building its nest.

As Narga alluded to, there are responses to any number of things you could complain about, and I'd go one further and say that the odds are good that some of your grievances are legitimate, just by law of averages. However, there's no point in getting into them, because you are so stubbornly invested in your rancor that the chance of an amicable discussion with you is infinitely close to zero percent. There's no further evidence of this needed than that you just summarily dismissed a point of mine without even touching the merits of it.

But in the end, my doubts don't change reality. If WJC and others submit to confirmation bias, obviously whatever I say won't make a difference.

So much for tier discussion, though.

I'm curious what in Ashera's name you expected, here. The guidelines were determined in secret, and objections to the Imaginary Ignoramus Rule have been ignored or dismissed. Given that, who would want to participate? The answer so far is, apparently, not very many people.

I think that this list is interesting from the perspective of attempting to account for the actions of aforementioned II, which is something that hasn't been done often. But in the context of tiering by efficiency, I don't see how those two things can be squared by anything other than mass denial of the inherent contradiction it causes.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

I'm curious what in Ashera's name you expected, here. The guidelines were determined in secret, and objections to the Imaginary Ignoramus Rule have been ignored or dismissed. Given that, who would want to participate? The answer so far is, apparently, not very many people.

I think that this list is interesting from the perspective of attempting to account for the actions of aforementioned II, which is something that hasn't been done often. But in the context of tiering by efficiency, I don't see how those two things can be squared by anything other than mass denial of the inherent contradiction it causes.

Well, I could see a list being created that assumed faulty play, but the thing is, it wouldn't look anything like this list. It certainly wouldn't be net utility, since it's pointless to talk about 'Mia taking away a space for someone better' if all the better people didn't get recruited or died. If Soren, Ilyana, Marcia, Zihark, Gatrie, Astrid, Makalov and Stefan don't exist, how good is Mia?

[Interceptor]

Well, I could see a list being created that assumed faulty play, but the thing is, it wouldn't look anything like this list. It certainly wouldn't be net utility, since it's pointless to talk about 'Mia taking away a space for someone better' if all the better people didn't get recruited or died. If Soren, Ilyana, Marcia, Zihark, Gatrie, Astrid, Makalov and Stefan don't exist, how good is Mia?

I see where you are coming from, because that's certainly an issue in this list, but I think it goes beyond questions of net vs. gross utility.

We have here a tier list that purports to rank units by efficiency, but includes a guideline with a loosely defined amount of variable inefficiency. It should be obvious upon cursory examination that the rankings can swing wildly depending on just how inefficient that the faulty play is (such as the value of durability, for one). So, by extension, it's logical that disagreement on the definition of faulty play means disagreement on the fundamental ordering of the entire list. With a goal of efficiency, however, what can you base the definition of faulty play on, other than people's warring opinions? The best that you can hope for is that nobody actually disagrees very much on the point.

There's merit in a Fire Emblem Psychology Experiment, but I think it would be better-suited for a tiering goal that actually matched up to the guideline. For instance, a list where tier positions are determined by something such as the likelihood of a unit's deployment + usage. You are still going to have a clash of opinions, but at least now it's the entire purpose of the list in the first place.

[Colonel M]

I kinda agree with smash,

On what basis do you agree with this man with? He can't even provide a simple argument with Bastian vs. Sanaki without pulling:

Sanaki vs Bastian is the same thing. Sanaki is forced, but she does nothing because she's crap. Bastian takes a unit slot and replaces someone, but at least he can actually do something on his own.

Except what exactly is Bastian doing that is so useful...?

...Is what I would say if this topic had a point to begin with, seeing as how all it is is a retarded-down version of the OTHER FE9 tier list.

It has an interesting theory behind it (by this I mean the whole weigh a person not being there vs. another person not being there) but the rule where a person can makes mistakes... kind of kills it. After all just press A on the unit and you can see where it goes. >_>;

Edited February 25, 2010 by Colonel M

[CATS]

I try not to get into who I "respect and don't respect" too much. It is better to dwell on whether or not an argument is valid, regardless of who posted it. Mentalities such as "I respect this user more than this one, therefore the user I respect more is probably right" inevitably kill discussion and foster flaming.

Smash's response to me/Interceptor?

As I understand things, this was done to smash first, was it not? I believe the attitude was essentially "Okay smash, we tried to explain it to you, but you are just not getting it, so we are going to go ahead and change the list and ignore you" (correct me if I'm wrong). In such a case, his attitude is quite understandable. He's just doing what was done to him.

And yeah, I would say let's get back on-topic, but it's obvious that no one is interested in any actual FE9 discussion here, so w/e. It's sort of disappointing that people chose to ignore the topic with statements like these:

As much as I'm enjoying the Smash and Narga show, I really think we should return to the point of this topic.

...Is what I would say if this topic had a point to begin with, seeing as how all it is is a retarded-down version of the OTHER FE9 tier list.

or just focus on the tier list's conditions, rather than actually discussing things, but on the other hand I can't say that it wasn't expected. Even if this list had the same conditions as the other one, it likely would've received similar treatment just by virtue of begging to differ with the "official list" status quo, judging from responses to the Crimson_Edge tier list in the FE7 forum.

Oh well, such is the way of things.

[Rodykitty]

So guys... Volke > Mist?

Better combat, and healing is devaluated by Rhys' existence, as well as units having high durability. Thief utility is a plus, and is most likely going to be used more than Sothe.

Mist has the Sonic Sword, but Volke is not reliant on one-time weapons in order to have solid combat. Volke can also steal Physic staves in one chapter.

[Colonel M]

or just focus on the tier list's conditions, rather than actually discussing things, but on the other hand I can't say that it wasn't expected. Even if this list had the same conditions as the other one, it likely would've received similar treatment just by virtue of begging to differ with the "official list" status quo, judging from responses to the Crimson_Edge tier list in the FE7 forum.

That was an entirely different subject, and I refer that we don't re-do that situation. I said that I like the idea of the "unit not existing vs. other unit not existing". It's an okay experiment.

[CATS]

Oh, I'm not saying this is the same as the Crimson_Edge list. The topic hasn't been locked and there has indeed been a measure of relevant discussion. I'm just saying that the fate of this topic will probably be along the same lines; people will not bother to participate because it is too much different from the existing tier list.

[Florete]

So guys... Volke > Mist?

Better combat, and healing is devaluated by Rhys' existence, as well as units having high durability. Thief utility is a plus, and is most likely going to be used more than Sothe.

Mist has the Sonic Sword, but Volke is not reliant on one-time weapons in order to have solid combat. Volke can also steal Physic staves in one chapter.

There was about 20 pages worth of Volke vs Mist discussion in the other topics that resulted in Mist on top. I don't think this topic would be much different. Volke's combat still sucks and he is still devalued by both Sothe and Chest Keys.

[Colonel M]

There was about 20 pages worth of Volke vs Mist discussion in the other topics that resulted in Mist on top. I don't think this topic would be much different. Volke's combat still sucks and he is still devalued by both Sothe and Chest Keys.

In the same vein you can say that Mists's contributions are lessened by team's durability and Rhys existing. I wouldn't go so far as to hype Volke's combat anyhow.

[Interceptor]

As I understand things [...]

And then after this quoted portion, you proceed to show precisely how you don't understand it at all. Your summary situation is very oversimplified, and equating an animated GIF response to whatever the heck you think was done to smash, is ridiculous. I can't "correct" you, the major malfunction here doesn't lend itself to a one-line phony quote-a-summary.

And yeah, I would say let's get back on-topic, but it's obvious that no one is interested in any actual FE9 discussion here, so w/e.

Pay no attention to the other tier list on this forum, no "actual FE9 discussion" is happening, only that of the imaginary sort. We here at Serenes Forest are not civilized enough.

or just focus on the tier list's conditions, rather than actually discussing things, but on the other hand I can't say that it wasn't expected. Even if this list had the same conditions as the other one, it likely would've received similar treatment just by virtue of begging to differ with the "official list" status quo, judging from responses to the Crimson_Edge tier list in the FE7 forum.

This is an irritating habit you have, asserting that the outcome of some alternate dimension event that never actually happened was because of XYZ. You use this tortured reasoning to come to the conclusion that I am viewed as such a tier list Messiah that the force my my personality could change the results of a debate that you and I had if we were merely to switch positions in the argument, and now you do the same thing coming up with a justification for why your experiment failed to generate the interest that you expected. Could it be that people don't like Tier List Rules by Fiat? No, it obviously could only be that there is an "official list" status quo and everyone is against you.

There is a reason that I used the term confirmation bias above, and it's not because I'm trying to be pretentious: it's because no two words describe what's going on better than those. Click that link and educate yourself.

Oh well, such is the way of things.

Indeed.

[Dat Nick]

Mentalities such as "I respect this user more than this one, therefore the user I respect more is probably right" inevitably kill discussion and foster flaming.

Hey, Horio. Since you respect CATS so much, how about you listen to him for a second?

I'm sick of hearing shit which only serves to jerk off CATS/Reikken/Solid whoever else you idolize out of you. Like this:

I kinda agree with smash, and I also respect CATS immensely.

For christs sakes, print out a picture of the AYB guy and jerk off over it if you want to have sex with CATS that badly. Just keep it to yourself, your constant need to declare how much you want to suck CATS's dick is starting to piss me off.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

I'll never get tired of the report post function here with people like you around. :)